Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Are you guys serious? 80+ pages of people bitching about shitty drop rates, and now you finally get a way to get 100%, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, drop rate, yet you still bitch? Claiming that speed & efficiency =/= skill?

If you don't think this requires skill and coordination you are in serious denial. Please post your 17 min SR5C videos. I'd love to see how unskilled you need to be to achieve this.

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Couldn't agree more, makes me happy to see that this 6th chest is more about skill than rng. Really glad SE went this route instead of the usual "just make it random" approach.

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Originally Posted by magenta_taco

http://www.youtube.com/user/7777pingu?feature=watch

easy peezy lemon squeezy.

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Too bad about the WAR nerf. Some monks would be tanking halfway through Miser dishing out that much abuse.

Haha my thoughts exactly

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Too bad about the WAR nerf. Some monks would be tanking halfway through Miser dishing out that much abuse.

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Just because they nerfed war doesn't mean you can't kill it before it moves the first time. The war nerf would add 10-20 seconds to the fight AT MOST for a party that can kill it that quickly.

Speed is an excellent way to gauge skill. Take the Olympic Games for instance...

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Originally Posted by Murugan

What the hell does formula-1 racing have to do with anything?

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ugghhh following the logic in an example is hard because it undermines the validity of my feeble position. how inconvenient uggghhh

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Originally Posted by SniperRifle

Speed is an excellent way to gauge skill. Take the Olympic Games for instance...

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hurrdurrr what do the olympics have to do with anything? nobody is talking about the 4x400m relay so i don't understand examples. your post is dumb hurrrrr

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Too bad about the WAR nerf. Some monks would be tanking halfway through Miser dishing out that much abuse.

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looks like their time was about ~2:08, which is pretty good but not amazing. war nerf isn't as big a deal as most make it out to be. good wars with good gear can still hold hate against sub 2-min monks just fine.

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Originally Posted by Req

Just because they nerfed war doesn't mean you can't kill it before it moves the first time. The war nerf would add 10-20 seconds to the fight AT MOST for a party that can kill it that quickly.

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shouldn't add any time at all, really

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

I really don't think it requires aptitude. It just forces cookie cutter set ups.

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and yet maybe 5% of the game population (if that?) using cookie cutter setups are capable of 150+ dps on MM post melee buff, much less before it. and if you want to hit 17m time, you need every dps to be shooting for 150 dps.

so tell me all about how little aptitude it takes, and i'll tell you all about how i can guarantee the complaining will only increase exponentially over time as more and more and more and more people just like you realize their groups simply don't have what it takes, cookie-cutter setup or not.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and yet maybe 5% of the game population (if that?) using cookie cutter setups are capable of 150+ dps on MM post melee buff, much less before it. and if you want to hit 17m time, you need every dps to be shooting for 150 dps.

so tell me all about how little aptitude it takes, and i'll tell you all about how i can guarantee the complaining will only increase exponentially over time as more and more and more and more people just like you realize their groups simply don't have what it takes, cookie-cutter setup or not.

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Are you functionally retarded? All you need to kill Miser <3 minutes is decent mnks with decent gear. If you have good melded gear and are not rolling in AF the whole fight is lol worthy.

Its not hard at all. It does take very little aptitude. My static and I can roll through AV half asleep. The fact of the matter is that without the set-up I posted and a mnk burn at the end, this time is not possible whatsoever. Yes, you need semi-decent players to put out that damage possible, but it requires a very specific set up.

Again for the slow ones out there. The community at large hates two things predominately. 1. Is RNG and 2. Is Speed Runs which force cookie cutter set ups. This is FACT. It's not the community crying over everything. It's the community getting sick and damn tired of Speed Runs and RNG abuse. It's that simple. STOP FUCKING DEFENDING SE'S IDIOTIC DESIGN DECISIONS.

I don't care how good your members are. You cannot reliably do a 17 minute run without a very specific set-up and that's the issue here. Look at the plethora of threads on speed runs, people dislike speed runs because it forces people to rely on a certain set-up to even have a shot at the accomplishment. By making the speed run even more tight, all it means is that you can't roll with AF gear and need to be decently equipped with melds which requires playing the RNG game.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Again for the slow ones out there. The community at large hates two things predominately. 1. Is RNG and 2. Is Speed Runs which force cookie cutter set ups. This is FACT.

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I couldn't agree more. SE put everything I don't like about the game and managed to cram it all into one quest.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

The community at large hates two things predominately. 1. Is RNG and 2. Is Speed Runs which force cookie cutter set ups. This is FACT.

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I disagree.

I can definitely handle the speed runs, it would be a 1000000000000000% time better setup than dealing with the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

I can definitely handle the speed runs, it would be a 1000000000000000% time better setup than dealing with the RNG.

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Agreed, With speed runs you can do stuff to improve your parties setup. With rng its just blind luck and who knows if you will ever get it.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

I disagree.

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You may disagree but the fact of the matter is that the community at large dislikes these two things.

Look, for me the speed runs aren't a problem but thinking beyond selfish reasons this is a terrible design choice and ostracizes many in the community who deplore these two aspects of 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

You may disagree but the fact of the matter is that the community at large dislikes these two things.

Look, for me the speed runs aren't a problem but thinking beyond selfish reasons this is a terrible design choice and ostracizes many in the community who deplore these two aspects of 1.0.

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Community doesn't hate speed runs, community hates things not being easy and/or easily completed in any feasible setup. The only people being ostracized are the people who either don't have the ability to do a speed run or who can't find like-minded people to do it with them.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

Community doesn't hate speed runs, community hates things not being easy and/or easily completed in any feasible setup. The only people being ostracized are the people who either don't have the ability to do a speed run or who can't find like-minded people to do it with them.

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i dont hate speed runs, but 17 minute runs is a bit much imo...

ill probly end up getting my stuff the hard way if that doesnt change somehow with a low low drop rate, cuz i dont think ill ever be in a shell who does runs that seriously

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Are you functionally retarded? All you need to kill Miser <3 minutes is decent mnks with decent gear. If you have good melded gear and are not rolling in AF the whole fight is lol worthy.

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see, the "functionally retarded" comment is funny since, if you want to hit 17 minutes, you need to kill mistress in about 2 minutes. which i understand now you've never done. because you don't have any idea what you're talking about. at all. not one bit.

so keep telling yourself it's easy. keep killing it in 3 minutes (lol). keep telling yourself your dps is good enough and patting yourself on the back. and then text me when you're ready to come crawling back to the forums to moan and cry about how you were wrong and you can't cut it.

i don't care how good you think you are. you cannot EVER do a 17 minute run if you think a 3 minute MM is adequate. you NEED to kill her in ~2. and to kill her in 2 you NEED to hit 150 dps. and you CAN'T. other people can, but not you.

http://i.imgur.com/MR9t3.jpg

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Originally Posted by fusional

see, the "functionally retarded" comment is funny since, if you want to hit 17 minutes, you need to kill mistress in about 2 minutes. which i understand now you've never done. because you don't have any idea what you're talking about. at all. not one bit.

so keep telling yourself it's easy. keep killing it in 3 minutes (lol). keep telling yourself your dps is good enough and patting yourself on the back. and then text me when you're ready to come crawling back to the forums to moan and cry about how you were wrong and you can't cut it.

i don't care how good you think you are. you cannot EVER do a 17 minute run if you think a 3 minute MM is adequate. you NEED to kill her in ~2. and to kill her in 2 you NEED to hit 150 dps. and you CAN'T. other people can, but not you.

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That elitist mentality is what hurts this game. I have killed Miser in under 2 minutes but for anything under 3 minutes you need decently geared mnks. To get it down to 2 minutes you need a tank who can put out decent numbers, you need to keep miser in its initial spawn point and mnks who are decently equipped w/potions. If it moves you've blown it That's it. Don't presume to know something just because I offended you. Beating Devil May Cry 3 on DMD mode = Skill for comparison purposes.

This whole thing is a e-peen content between those who think they are soooooooo skilled because they can speed run it in that time and those who are governed by common sense. It seems I'm the only one who can put e-peen aside and look at this objectionably.

Also don't try to defend speed runs as being skill based and supported by the community. There is a plethora of evidence to prove the contrary. Speed Runs are fake-difficulty. It's a cheap, lazy way to prolong content and ostracizes people who really want to play a certain class.

The reason this thread has reached 90 + pages isn't because people are lazy and want these weapons to be finished in one day. The reason is that this whole quest line involves the 2 most deplored aspects of FFXIV 1.0. It's basically a celebration of obsolete gaming design.

P.S. Your grammar is terrible. Also you're trying to turn the topic into a argument on micro-managing dps. Shut the fuck up about your DPS and look at the bigger issues the community is trying to address.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

By making the speed run even more tight, all it means is that you can't roll with AF gear and need to be decently equipped with melds which requires playing the RNG game.

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are you mentally retarded?
what's wrong with ppl using their decent gears in dungeons if they want to achieve the better outcome?

that's cool. let me know when your grammar mobile drives you to a sub-17 minute MM kill- because otherwise you're never gonna see relic, turbo.

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

are you mentally retarded?
what's wrong with ppl using their decent gears in dungeons if they want to achieve the better outcome?

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Way to miss the point genius. I never said anything about that. In fact I agree that in order to run it quickly you need to be decently geared. Like I said people can't show up in AF and expect top results. I never once contested that. Reading comprehension fail.

lol fusional check this out what he post earlier... 2 WHM for each boss! thats auto-not ever gonna get 17m or quicker clears

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

AV: Until Coin-Counter, 1 tank, 4 black mages for burning the rooms down as fast as possible, 2 white mages for regen and one bard. That is the only feasible way to get past the two poison rooms quickly. This is absolutely non-negotiable. You cannot clear AV in under 17 minutes unless you use a similar set up.

CC: 2 Tanks until Princess, 3 Black Mages, 2 white mages and a bard. Sub one Tank for a black mage after Princess. Burn everything down as fast as possible. Again this is non-negotiable.

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Oh I'll give you a tip, your CC is not cookie cutter at all.

Entrance Trash: Your 2nd WAR and 2nd WHM are totally useless, and BRD is negotiable (give up like half a hallway of runspeed for another blm to kill quicker.... blm prob wins by a couple seconds). So you are clearing trash with 5.5 people.

Princess: GG using 2 WHM your killtime just increased by 1 minute to 1 minute 30s, and if you still use that many BLM for her add another 20-30s onto killtime.

Chimera: GG using 2 WHM again, add 1m15s onto kill time.

With that set up the BEST time I can possibly think of is 19 minutes if everyone is ultra pro DPS. Using 2 WHM is such a handicap on those 2 fights for speed clears idkkkk

We have cleared in under 17m here is our set up

Trash 1: 6x BLM, 1x WAR, 1x WHM
Princess: WHM, BRD, BLM, DRG, MNK, 3x WAR (ultra cookie cutter) - We have killed her+Marshal before 2nd guard pops, you'll never ever do that with a 2nd WHM
Chimera: WHM, BRD, PLD, 5x BLM

But ya mostly just making fun of using 2 WHM :/ I'm going to go cry now due to the lack of DL drops lately

And this thread has been derailed by the e-peeners. Congratulations guys. It's a shame we can't have viable conversation about this topic and these game design choices.

I also said until the boss. I was also posting a initial speed run set-up at that point. If everyone is super experienced which I'm sure you guys are you can cut out some of the safety for more damage. Regardless, my point holds. If you want to hit the 17 minute time for the guaranteed drop. You need a very specific set-up. At least with a regular speed run you can have some job flexibility.

Regardless I will stop arguing with you for the sake of this thread. The issues need to be discussed and arguing with you over set-ups is a total red-herring with regards to discussing said issues.

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And this thread has been derailed by the e-peeners.

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Relic weapon discussion

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I... I don't...

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

This whole thing is a e-peen content between those who think they are soooooooo skilled because they can speed run it in that time and those who are governed by common sense. It seems I'm the only one who can put e-peen aside and look at this objectionably.

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It was never about those people thinking they're 'soooooooo skilled', so much as those people pointing out that completing sub-17 min. run in AV takes skill and having to provide numbers and examples to prove so. AV is by no means an extremely hard instance, it's very fun and somewhat challenging, but I don't consider it the high point of my hardcore gaming career, because that's what you seem to assume. If I or someone else is better than a group of people at doing something in the game then it's not an e-peen as much a fact, deal with it.

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Also don't try to defend speed runs as being skill based and supported by the community. There is a plethora of evidence to prove the contrary. Speed Runs are fake-difficulty. It's a cheap, lazy way to prolong content and ostracizes people who really want to play a certain class.

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Don't understand how you don't think speed runs require skill when the very definition of skill is to complete an action as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Also, I honestly don't see the issue with speed runs. In say, 7 months time, when we have 2.0 and new engines and what have you, hopefully there will be different sorts of requirements outside of speed runs to attain items or clear instances, but that doesn't mean that a speed run is a horrible thing and should be ABOLISHED. I'm not even sure what more the dev. team could really include when they're working with a crap engine and trying to keep content fairly difficult and long-lasting. The team gives us something that's skill-based and people complain, so next time they'll bring in an HNM that the best LSs aren't able to defeat even after a month and require several perfect kills for relic 2. I wonder how many people will complain then?

You say the reason that this thread is so long is because of RNG and speed run complaints, but I still disagree. While I'm not content with the melding requirement for relic, I believe that the reason this thread is so long is that a large group of people don't want to put any time/effort into an item that's supposed to be BiS for a long time, or simply don't have the ability to complete the requirements for said relics due to lack of skill. Call me an elitist, cool story bro. It's what I see and it's objective.

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grammar is terrible.

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Because your grammar is impeccable, right?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...s/AV17MINS.png

lol ヽ（´ー｀）

confirmed 17mins speed run gives everyone in the party "Miser's Mythril"

Clear use of bots.

Grats guys!

the only thing i've learned from this thread is either that screenshot is shooped because 17min runs are impossible, or it's easy as hell and this is old news because anyone/everyone can do it. but which is it???

hlep













(but seriously, gj and grats guys)

It's pretty clear that Aarkz guy is a scrub. He's dead in every screenshot.

I'm dead in screenshots too often.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Clear use of bots.

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LOL.............

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

confirmed 17mins speed run gives everyone in the party "Miser's Mythril"

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Congratulations Luxanna and your LS! :)

Thanks for helping us confirm the JP Blog Info. Very helpful.

thank you Kiara,
i'm still looking for that guy - Darkillumina, char name: Konstantine Porphyrogenitos

Congratulations on the run, I guess it's confirmed now.

I think a lot of the arguments here were a result of me perhaps not being clear. I think some of you guys thought I was trying to tell you how easy 17 minute runs were when in fact most of the time I was posting with regards to normal speed runs. My static goes for the safest and easiest way to get a regular speed run because we routinely bring in new people and having extra insurance works well when teaching people the ropes. Until now clearly, there wasn't any need to push for better times. The only thing I did talk about was killing miser quickly which is ALWAYS preferable due to safety concerns if slugs pop. Clearly if we're talking about straight <17 minute runs you need to cut out all the extraneous crap for efficiency.

Regardless, my apologies for my lack of clarity. I and the majority of the community still dislike speed runs but at least this is somewhat a step in the right direction. I still stand by my dislike of speed runs however as a placeholder for true difficulty. SE probably doesn't have a choice in the matter. 2.0 is fast approaching and they can't keep adding content for 1.0 so they are handcuffed by the current limitations.

As I have posted in some other threads I am all for relics but I think this point in time is a terrible time to implement them.

Well really, 3 times to do a 17 min run isn't all that much to complain about. After that you can do it the easier way. My beef was having absolutely no control over the shitty RNG.

But I understand your point we're all sick of the repetitive bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Well really, 3 times to do a 17 min run isn't all that much to complain about. After that you can do it the easier way. My beef was having absolutely no control over the shitty RNG.

But I understand your point we're all sick of the repetitive bullshit.

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yeah, this thing that madruk said ^

I agree completely.