"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

What happens if I'm running ahead as DPS, grab aggro, then run back and park myself right on top of you so you can easily get threat from everything just by doing your normal AoE rotation?

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...this is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I have rules about this.

If I'm a tank pulling and nobody is running ahead but aggro is gained off me, I will pick it up immediately, it was my fault for not getting enough aggro on them to avoid that. If you run ahead, I will not grab the aggro UNLESS the healer heals you, at which point I'm doing it to save that healer in advance.

If I'm healer, I will heal you if you accidentally grabbed aggro off the tank while they were running ahead, because again, tank didn't have enough aggro but was trying to grab everything, so I will keep you alive. If you pull ahead of the tank and the tank grabs it, I will heal you because the tank feels you shouldn't die. If you pull ahead and the tank does not grab the aggro, I will let you go down.

If I'm DPS and I steal the aggro off the tank from the adds they first picked up, I will sprint and catch up to them, standing there in front of them when he finally stops so they can pick the adds up as they come from behind. If they and the healer let me die, I won't bother AoEing the adds until they're all gathered for the rest of the dungeon.

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You're leaving out the potential for a DPS to pull a pack for the tank and self mitigate it both with their own HP, for the tank, and use their ams length to slow them, for the tank. Having all these rules is pointless imo. Just work together.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

...this is acceptable.

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We are in agreement in this case, because this is how it should be - if the DPS players want to pull, they should make it easier for you to get aggro back.

I'm sure you realize that some players take your reasoning a step further and would actively move away from that player or stop doing their AoE rotation until they are dead. Not many, but I've met players like this.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

What happens if I'm running ahead as DPS, grab aggro, then run back and park myself right on top of you so you can easily get threat from everything just by doing your normal AoE rotation?

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This is literally what I do, En Avant makes it ridiculously easy to get ahead of the Tank, so I will often dash ahead, right click the most forward enemy on the pack so my auto attack goes off, then immediately dash backwards and park myself atop of the Tank, then pop Arm's Length to give the Tank a small amount of free mitigation, and start dancing, by the time I am finished with my dance steps, the mobs should be grouped up or at least within 15y so they will all get slapped, and the Tank should have no issue grabbing aggro by spamming AoE, which is what they would be doing anyway.

I am of mind that if the DPS is grabbing aggro and running away with it, then they are being disruptive and kinda deserve to die, and even if the Tank tries to save them they might not be able, the entire point of this thread is that dungeons are a cooperative effort, and being disruptive for any reason as any role is equally bad, the Tank may have an easier time being toxic if they wish to, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones able to.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

We are in agreement in this case, because this is how it should be - if the DPS players want to pull, they should make it easier for you to get aggro back.

I'm sure you realize that some players take your reasoning a step further and would actively move away from that player or stop doing their AoE rotation until they are dead. Not many, but I've met players like this.

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I've encountered so many that don't make it easy to get the aggro back, which is where the jaded perspective comes from for tanking. Or in the case of healing, DPS who do this and run so far out of healing range to where death is the only option...and who also stand in bad constantly. There's only so much you can take before you just reach the point where you're more than willing to let them die over and over again. To quote an old friend, "Stupid should hurt."

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This is literally what I do, En Avant makes it ridiculously easy to get ahead of the Tank, so I will often dash ahead, right click the most forward enemy on the pack so my auto attack goes off, then immediately dash backwards and park myself atop of the Tank, then pop Arm's Length to give the Tank a small amount of free mitigation, and start dancing, by the time I am finished with my dance steps, the mobs should be grouped up or at least within 15y so they will all get slapped, and the Tank should have no issue grabbing aggro by spamming AoE, which is what they would be doing anyway.

I am of mind that if the DPS is grabbing aggro and running away with it, then they are being disruptive and kinda deserve to die, and even if the Tank tries to save them they might not be able, the entire point of this thread is that dungeons are a cooperative effort, and being disruptive for any reason as any role is equally bad, the Tank may have an easier time being toxic if they wish to, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones able to.

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Yes, of course you are right. If a DPS grabs aggro and refuses to bring the mobs back to the tnak, or starts kiting them who knows where, at that point they are on their own. If I am tanking or healing, I'll still do my best to keep them alive - but I won't chase them down if it means less healing for the tank (if healing is even necessary because you know), or moving the first pack I have threat on in a way that the other DPS can't hit anything with their AoE.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

...this is acceptable.

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Consider, some DPS will run ahead to grab a pack and use Arm's Length to give you some extra mitigation.

Then Bloodbath to heal themselves up.

If done right, it speeds things up a great deal and it lets the DPS have more fun too. Bonus points if the DPS knows how to stun and Feint/Addle

https://i.redd.it/0ifna24cmava1.jpg

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because I have dealt with that crap constantly since 2.0, and it reached a point to where I'm the jaded tank going "Fine, you do it if you don't think I'm going fast enough," AND the jaded healer going "HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME HEAL UNNECESSARILY, YOU DIE WHEN I SAY SO AND I SAY DIE!" Seriously, I'm at that point to where people will get no sympathy from me, only aggression. I'm also a DPS who will spam their AoE and use their big cooldowns on mobs to speed up the run while running between groups. Just kill the damned things we've got during the pull, stop running ahead of the tank when that only makes this take longer to kill these things.

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Okay well I also play as a tank and healer and I personally don't care who pulls because it's not an issue at all. If enmity were still like how is was in ARR-StB, then sure, I would be annoyed because now I have to stay in tank stance for a bit to ensure I have hate on everything and hope to the Twelve the DPS and Healer use their enmity reduction skills (Quelling Strikes, Diversion, Shroud of Saints, Lucid Dreaming, the NIN ones, etc). However ever since ShB came out, enmity just requires you to be in tank stance, use an AoE rotation and now nothing will escape you. Oh the DPS pulled? Bring them back here and I'll AoE them off of you because my role is to be a tank, which means I have to hold aggro whether I pulled or not. And also mitigate (two mits per pulls + Bloodwhetting. Holmgang too because what else am I gonna use it on? Wet-noodle McGee? unlikely).

If I'm a healer and a DPS pulls, I'll throw a shield on them, then on me and then hang out with the tank because odds are I'll have a few mobs coming my way. DPS above 50% HP once the tank has everything on them? They're fine, just a flesh wound, walk it off (or use Bloodbath if you have it... or if I'm on WHM/AST, enjoy this Regen). If the tank is a YPYT person, then I remove Kardia from them, stick it to the DPS and then we keep going (though I do need to heal more often). I'm more annoyed at the tank at this point because all they have to do is AoE to get things back under control. That's it.

As a reminder to people, Monster Player Kill is against the TOS and thereby is reportable. If tanks are allowing you die over this, that falls under MPK.

As a main tank myself, I discourage pulling for me if only because it is dangerous. Too many times someone has almost died because by the time I get there and grab the mobs, the server will register my hits AFTER the mobs hits the other person. Hence, I sprint and/or try to grab more than 2 mobs with my ranged + provoke, before reaching the pack, so if they peel one off, it's just the one mob hitting them. I also try to range attack everything behind me while on the way to the next pack.

Sprint also has a cooldown, so...yeah.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

As a reminder to people, Monster Player Kill is against the TOS and thereby is reportable. If tanks are allowing you die over this, that falls under MPK.

As a main tank myself, I discourage pulling for me if only because it is dangerous. Too many times someone has almost died because by the time I get there and grab the mobs, the server will register my hits AFTER the mobs hits the other person. Hence, I sprint and/or try to grab more than 2 mobs with my ranged + provoke, before reaching the pack, so if they peel one off, it's just the one mob hitting them. I also try to range attack everything behind me while on the way to the next pack.

Sprint also has a cooldown, so...yeah.

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That actually doesn't constitute MPK because the one dying is directly causing it by intentionally drawing aggro.

The MPK they're referring to is things like dragging enemies over other players that are out of combat so AoE attacks on you end up hitting and killing them. Things well known in FFXI like taking Serket for walkies over EXP parties in Garliage Citadel or dragging bombs over to afk ppl outside Jeuno with things posted for sale so they all die when it self destructs. Or the PLD that finds the guy in the Nidhogg alliance that forgot to /blockaid and proceeds to trigger Spike Flail by standing behind it and casting Cure IV followed by Invincible...

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

That actually doesn't constitute MPK because the one dying is directly causing it by intentionally drawing aggro.

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If the tank is intentionally avoiding that mob to punish someone, it falls under mpk. It may also fall under refusal to participate. It’s petty. People need to drop the MCS and complete the duty, together

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

That actually doesn't constitute MPK because the one dying is directly causing it by intentionally drawing aggro.

The MPK they're referring to is things like dragging enemies over other players that are out of combat so AoE attacks on you end up hitting and killing them. Things well known in FFXI like taking Serket for walkies over EXP parties in Garliage Citadel or dragging bombs over to afk ppl outside Jeuno with things posted for sale so they all die when it self destructs. Or the PLD that finds the guy in the Nidhogg alliance that forgot to /blockaid and proceeds to trigger Spike Flail by standing behind it and casting Cure IV followed by Invincible...

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It's MPK because the tank refuses to hit it and grab aggro with the intention of the puller dying. They are trying to have the monster kill the player, because of the fact that the other player pulled the mob. Intention matters.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

That actually doesn't constitute MPK because the one dying is directly causing it by intentionally drawing aggro.

The MPK they're referring to is things like dragging enemies over other players that are out of combat so AoE attacks on you end up hitting and killing them. Things well known in FFXI like taking Serket for walkies over EXP parties in Garliage Citadel or dragging bombs over to afk ppl outside Jeuno with things posted for sale so they all die when it self destructs. Or the PLD that finds the guy in the Nidhogg alliance that forgot to /blockaid and proceeds to trigger Spike Flail by standing behind it and casting Cure IV followed by Invincible...

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How do you prove they're intentionally doing it

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

How do you prove they're intentionally doing it

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Because if you drag the mobs on top of the tank directly and they refuse to use AoE or move away, it's pretty obvious.

Also because YPYT types just can't resist spelling it outright in chat to taunt you before or after letting you die.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

It's MPK because the tank refuses to hit it and grab aggro with the intention of the puller dying. They are trying to have the monster kill the player, because of the fact that the other player pulled the mob. Intention matters.

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I need to make something clear, YPYT doesn't constitute MPK, because MPK is defined as "an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.", so it'd have to be something akin to positioning yourself such that an AoE targeted at you would hit a party member, or intentionally moving yourself so a cleave tankbuster hits the party, however, it is still against ToS, under "Obstruction of play", subsection "Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior", which is defined as "an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation.", to quote the full point in the ToS...

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- Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.
Key Points
Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):
- "I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
- "I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
- "I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."
If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed if the act has been confirmed publicly through online video, streaming services, or other means.

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Notice that the first example given is essentially YPYT from a Healer perspective, and the key point that needs to be understood, which might be a tad coutnerintuitive, is that inaction by conscious choice constitutes as an action, because it was still a choice you made that influenced your behavior.

Too bad, I'm still going to do it. If you wanna pull, queue as a tank. If you're not the tank, trust that the tank has a better idea than you do over what their own comfort zone is, and stop deciding it for them.

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As a reminder to people, Monster Player Kill is against the TOS and thereby is reportable. If tanks are allowing you die over this, that falls under MPK.

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This is not MPK. That is when someone else drags enemies onto you and causes you to die.

You pulling something you couldn't handle and dying because nobody else would bail you out is completely different (and not MPK in the slightest)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Too bad, I'm still going to do it. If you wanna pull, queue as a tank. If you're not the tank, trust that the tank has a better idea than you do over what their own comfort zone is, and stop deciding it for them.

This is not MPK. That is when someone else drags enemies onto you and causes you to die.

You pulling something you couldn't handle and dying because nobody else would bail you out is completely different (and not MPK in the slightest)

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Okay, so then when you, the tank, pulls everything (or just single pulls), I better not hear you complain if the Healer and DPS decide to let you deal with everything on your own. Oh you KO'd? Don't blame the DPS and Healer for not bailing you out of something you couldn't handle.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Too bad, I'm still going to do it. If you wanna pull, queue as a tank. If you're not the tank, trust that the tank has a better idea than you do over what their own comfort zone is, and stop deciding it for them.

This is not MPK. That is when someone else drags enemies onto you and causes you to die.

You pulling something you couldn't handle and dying because nobody else would bail you out is completely different (and not MPK in the slightest)

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Trust the healer has a better judgement than the tank over what the tank can handle, as it’s the healer’s primary role to keep that tank alive. Just because the tank is scared to take an extra hit doesn’t mean they are incapable of taking that damage. If you want to single pull, consider a different role.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Okay, so then when you, the tank, pulls everything (or just single pulls), I better not hear you complain if the Healer and DPS decide to let you deal with everything on your own. Oh you KO'd? Don't blame the DPS and Healer for not bailing you out of something you couldn't handle.

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Warriors can literally handle things on their own. Just saying. Done it many times with pissy healers.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Warriors can literally handle things on their own. Just saying. Done it many times with pissy healers.

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Even WAR would die if the DPS don't cooperate, WAR is powerful for dungeon pulls in specific, but part of that power exists because they only stay under heat for a limited time due to mobs dying fast enough, if the DPS just stands there doing nothing, you will run out of cooldowns, be unable to bridge Bloodwhetting uses any longer, and just die.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Trust the healer has a better judgement than the tank over what the tank can handle, as it’s the healer’s primary role to keep that tank alive. Just because the tank is scared to take an extra hit doesn’t mean they are incapable of taking that damage. If you want to single pull, consider a different role.

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That's a big risk when you don't know the healer and their experience.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

That's a big risk when you don't know the healer and their experience.

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You won’t find out if you do pusillanimous pulls. I’ll keep doubling down on if you want to single pull, trusts are for you.
Majority of duties designed from HW and after were done so with 2 trash pulls, followed by a gate. Even developers recognize wall to wall is the meta. If you want to tank, utilize your class and it’s mitigations. If you’re doing so for the fast queue, trusts are instant and they don’t complain about your lack of skill

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Even WAR would die if the DPS don't cooperate, WAR is powerful for dungeon pulls in specific, but part of that power exists because they only stay under heat for a limited time due to mobs dying fast enough, if the DPS just stands there doing nothing, you will run out of cooldowns, be unable to bridge Bloodwhetting uses any longer, and just die.

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This is incorrect. Proper management of cooldowns very much allows WAR to survive indefinitely in most dungeon content, whether it be against trash from a wall-to-wall pull or even the bosses themselves. Healer and DPS contribution, while immensely helpful, is not a necessity. Even in normal endgame content, a skilled WAR can in many cases more or less be ignored by the healer until or unless they eat a tankbuster or someone fails specific mechanics. If it's a tankbuster that doesn't leave behind a nasty dot or vuln, they can probably get themselves back up from that too.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This is incorrect. Proper management of cooldowns very much allows WAR to survive indefinitely in most dungeon content, whether it be against trash from a wall-to-wall pull or even the bosses themselves. Healer and DPS contribution, while immensely helpful, is not a necessity. Even in normal endgame content, a skilled WAR can in many cases more or less be ignored by the healer until or unless they eat a tankbuster or someone fails specific mechanics. If it's a tankbuster that doesn't leave behind a nasty dot or vuln, they can probably get themselves back up from that too.

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This is also incorrect as Ive tried this tactic multiple times solo synced on dungeons just to see if its possible but the mobs eventually overwhelm me because Warriors cant out dps them fast enough to kill them even after spending all my mitigation cooldowns.



That or maybe just get gud and nerf warrior please

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

This is also incorrect as Ive tried this tactic multiple times solo synced on dungeons just to see if its possible but the mobs eventually overwhelm me because Warriors cant out dps them fast enough to kill them even after spending all my mitigation cooldowns.



That or maybe just get gud and nerf warrior please

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It sounds like your experience with the job has been very different from mine. I've found soloing most Shadowbringers dungeons to be low in difficulty and high in time investment. I've also had friends of mine queue with me into Endwalker content only to sit at the start of the dungeon while I went off on my own, just so to see if it would work. It did. Takes waaaayyy too long, but it's doable. You just need to be patient and respect your limits. Sometimes you may want to refrain from wall to wall pulling, others you might want to pause between packs to get your cooldowns back so you go in fresh. It's smooth sailing if you can get to the bosses, as they generally pose significantly less of a threat to you than did the trash.

To be clear, you may notice I said most. Some of them have mechanics that preclude soloing, at least not without taking the time to come up with some outside-the-box strategies to make up for lacking a full group. Then some trash, especially in Endwalker, you're just not soloing on a wall-to-wall. It all depends on where you are.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

This is also incorrect as Ive tried this tactic multiple times solo synced on dungeons just to see if its possible but the mobs eventually overwhelm me because Warriors cant out dps them fast enough to kill them even after spending all my mitigation cooldowns.



That or maybe just get gud and nerf warrior please

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I also want to make something clear, I am talking full send each pull, wtw every time, that's what would kill WAR, and what could put you in a spot where the DPS decides to just not act because you aren't expecting it, if you were to slowly single pull everything, you wouldn't even need WAR, hell you wouldn't even need a Tank, a melee DPS with good use of Bloodbath would be able to handle the trash just fine.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I also want to make something clear, I am talking full send each pull, wtw every time, that's what would kill WAR, and what could put you in a spot where the DPS decides to just not act because you aren't expecting it, if you were to slowly single pull everything, you wouldn't even need WAR, hell you wouldn't even need a Tank, a melee DPS with good use of Bloodbath would be able to handle the trash just fine.

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And why aren’t the dps “acting”? Are they just standing there? Easy report. Is the healer healing? Then the tank will survive.

This whole discussion is about whether or not tanks being petty is accepted behaviour. For a community that likes to label everything as “toxic”, this discussion shouldn’t have lasted this long

Tanks should tank. End of discussion

If you refuse to tank, be something else. I suggest botanist

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

And why aren’t the dps “acting”? Are they just standing there? Easy report. Is the healer healing? Then the tank will survive.

This whole discussion is about whether or not tanks being petty is accepted behaviour. For a community that likes to label everything as “toxic”, this discussion shouldn’t have lasted this long

Tanks should tank. End of discussion

If you refuse to tank, be something else. I suggest botanist

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I would suggest go back and play Hello Kitty Island Adventure

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would suggest go back and play Hello Kitty Island Adventure

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No longer exists or I would agree with you

There is no excuse for a tank to be behind the DPS. If a DPS pulls, then clearly the tank needs to step it up. You set the pace, not the other way around. In fact, when grouped with others, there is never an excuse for anything less than immediate and continuous wall-to-wall pulls. Do not even bother to speak at the beginning of the dungeon. As soon as that barrier drops, your responsibility is to go. Period.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

And why aren’t the dps “acting”? Are they just standing there? Easy report. Is the healer healing? Then the tank will survive.

This whole discussion is about whether or not tanks being petty is accepted behaviour. For a community that likes to label everything as “toxic”, this discussion shouldn’t have lasted this long

Tanks should tank. End of discussion

If you refuse to tank, be something else. I suggest botanist

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I am in full agreement with you, I was never arguing against Tanks doing their job, I was answering to the vacuum point of "WAR can do whatever they want no matter what the rest of the party is doing", the answer to which being, no they can't, they have far more leeway than the other three, but they still need the party to cooperate, and ideally everyone would just act like adults and do their job.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would suggest go back and play Hello Kitty Island Adventure

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Such low iq retorts. I would suggest you find some better ones or find a different forum to browse if you can’t handle that we are right. See how that works in reverse?

Clearly you are a ego tank so this hits a nerve seeing people don’t support your bad behaviour ingame. Which we shouldn’t. You are not some god we must follow. Be a team player or go solo.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...na24cmava1.png

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

Such low iq retorts. I would suggest you find some better ones or find a different forum to browse if you can’t handle that we are right.

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Who in the blazes is saying that Im disagreeing with it?

The balance in this game is bs and the fact that Warriors can get away with this makes me so mad I could literally punch a wall.


I mean not really since thatll hurt but the holy trinity aspect of this game is one big huge joke

Tanks are responsible for maintaining agro on all enemies, DPS are responsible for doing as much damage as possible, healers are responsibile for making sure no ones health bar goes to zero.

This isn't rocket science people.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Who in the blazes is saying that Im disagreeing with it?

The balance in this game is bs and the fact that Warriors can get away with this makes me so mad I could literally punch a wall.

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I understand that anger well. Wish they'd take about 1/4 of WAR's healing away from it and give it to DRK.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I understand that anger well. Wish they'd take about 1/4 of WAR's healing away from it and give it to DRK.

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Which makes better sense since the whole idea of FF DK is about consuming HP and absorbing HP!! Like a heavy risk heavy reward thing? Why is this game's Dark Knight design such a farcry from previous games? Literally the worst iteration of the class in the series.

This game's DRK design is just WAR after a visit to Hot Topic.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This game's DRK design is just WAR after a visit to Hot Topic.

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Even the DK story which people praise for is nothing compared to the superior DK story from FFXI.

But I digress, tanking in this game is bad, and people creating petty problems from both sides are doing nothing much but detract from the god awful mess the game's design is for the holy trinity.

You pull, you tank ha well how about You give me better combat!