o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

do those of you who are cheering the crafting changes actually craft? or do you just like this in theory?

I do like this and I do craft. However, I only craft with the purpose of repairs precisely because of the item bloat. I'm planning on Mastering a craft should that become available under this new system. I hope Culinarian will soon get this type of attention. Because being a High Ranking BTN and a Master Chef would make me shiver with joy.

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Originally Posted by Blue79

do those of you who are cheering the crafting changes actually craft? or do you just like this in theory?

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The simplified recipes, yes. What Yoshida said on the JP boards, kind of iffy on that bit.

Thanks for the translations Bayohne, could you have him clarify/expand on this portion of his post please? Mainly what the end stats for post 1.20 HQ will be, and how they are going to merge existing HQ1/2/3 items to fit the new system:

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2. HQ Revamp

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We are planning on implementing the HQ revamp in patch 1.20. Following the release of patch 1.19, the current specs for HQ items will remain in place, so current HQ items will not be affected. Until Patch 1.20 is released, the current specs for HQ items will be used. Also, in the new specs, HQ items will only be created if every ingredient used is HQ. Obtaining HQ versions of the ingredients will require a mix of luck and skill. (We want to make sure that you will not experience a sense of futility when your synthesized item turns into NQ at the last moment.)

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Please correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like:

• 1.19 = New streamlined recipes, HQ results still +1/2/3. Co-exist with old recipes and HQ1/2/3 items and 5/10/15% bonus still intact.
• 1.20 = Only new streamlined recipes will remain, legacy pre-1.19 recipes, materials, parts will be phased out. New HQ system and item stats in place.

The key questions that need to be addressed are:

• Will there still be +1/2/3 levels of HQ in post-1.20 crafting?
• If not, how will the existing NQ/1/2/3 items be translated into NQ/HQ in the new system? Will the merge/translation be (NQ/1 -> NQ) and (+2/3 -> HQ)?
• What will the new NQ and HQ stats be relative to the existing NQ/1/2/3 stats. Will new HQ stats be at least equal to current +3 items?

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Originally Posted by Blue79

do those of you who are cheering the crafting changes actually craft? or do you just like this in theory?

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I sure do craft. I have a 50 craft, a couple hanging around 30 and a bunch more - and crafting isn't even something I consider to be my main use of time in this game.

That being said, I've seen plenty of multi-50 crafters supporting these changes.

I'm not directing this at you but;

The level of ignorance by players who post that people supporting these changes are not crafters is simply astounding.

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Originally Posted by Blue79

do those of you who are cheering the crafting changes actually craft? or do you just like this in theory?

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I must say I like this in theory.

My highest craft is leatherworker at 22. But does it really matter? isnt the point of the game to pull you in with interesting and challenging systems to have fun as opposed to drive you away because of needless time wasting?

Oh lord...the more they try to show the positive side of the changes, the worse it looks... :/

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Yes well ironically its mostly the people that like you for the reasons i mentioned above that i disagree with for the most part. :p
Anyway on the part of what you said you clarified yourself so fair enough. :)

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Clarity is nice, indeed.

On the part of the amount of likes my posts tend to get - I like to think they come from people who:

• like what I say
• agree with what I say
• like the manner in which I express my perspective, even if they may disagree

Overall I try to remain respectful to everyone, but every now and then I will change my tone a bit in response to those who remain persistent in trolling, ignorance, and/or personal attacks. Eventually, however, I end up ignoring said posts.

I like to keep discussion productive. I don't presume to say I know what I'm talking about 100% of the time, or that I am always right. If anything, I like nothing more than to see a post that effectively takes what I say, shows understanding of it, and proceeds to teach me something.

If you haven't noticed, I also tend to get carried away and ramble on when I try to make points lol. Good thing I sometimes manage to make effective use of bold font so people can see the tl;dr of my walls of text :P

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Originally Posted by Chiz

Thanks for the translations Bayohne, could you have him clarify/expand on this portion of his post please? Mainly what the end stats for post 1.20 HQ will be, and how they are going to merge existing HQ1/2/3 items to fit the new system:




Please correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like:

• 1.19 = New streamlined recipes, HQ results still +1/2/3. Co-exist with old recipes and HQ1/2/3 items and 5/10/15% bonus still intact.
• 1.20 = Only new streamlined recipes will remain, legacy pre-1.19 recipes, materials, parts will be phased out. New HQ system and item stats in place.

The key questions that need to be addressed are:

• Will there still be +1/2/3 levels of HQ in post-1.20 crafting?
• If not, how will the existing NQ/1/2/3 items be translated into NQ/HQ in the new system? Will the merge/translation be (NQ/1 -> NQ) and (+2/3 -> HQ)?
• What will the new NQ and HQ stats be relative to the existing NQ/1/2/3 stats. Will new HQ stats be at least equal to current +3 items?

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The way i understand it is post .19 only nq/hq will be created. with +1,2,3 legacy items remaining untouched until .20

gotta make tons of ingot before 1.20 to get rid of all the nuggets.... lol

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do those of you who are cheering the crafting changes actually craft? or do you just like this in theory?

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Yes, even though it is not my primary past-time. I like being able to make stuff for myself and my friends. I even like the mini-game, though I believe it could use something to make it feel less stop-and-go.

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Originally Posted by Griss

The way i understand it is post .19 only nq/hq will be created. with +1,2,3 legacy items remaining untouched until .20

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Nope.

With 1.19 we simply get new, simplified recipes. HQs remain entirely intact and still produce +1,2,3 results.

With 1.20 the HQ system is revamped entirely and existing items are all transitioned based on their decision on which way +2s will go. The old recipes are also removed, leaving only the simplified ones.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

gotta make tons of ingot before 1.20 to get rid of all the nuggets.... lol

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私もです。＞＜
Me too.

In the past days, Yoshida-san has been giving out information on the new HQ mechanics for the first time (thanks! :D), and he answered exactly to what I asked for in this Topic last week. I particularly agree with these two points:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

We want to make sure that you will not experience a sense of futility when your synthesized item turns into NQ at the last moment.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

As such, we believe that it is important that the HQ items can be synthesized with certainty if the proper effort is put in.

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And that was kind of my point in my old post: rewards for your efforts and no more just a random luck-based system (particularly for crafting HQ materials, and the Horn Glue example I did back then suits perfectly).
As a crafter that doesn't stay that much in Eorzea, but that nonetheless puts commitment and time, even weeks, when gathering HQ materials and trying to create HQ ones, often not seeing these efforts rewarded, it relieves me to read there're plans to make it change. :)


Anyway, I'd like to know what will precisely happen after patch 1.20 to +2/+3 items, materials and equipments already in possession. Is there a defined plan yet?

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

2. HQ Revamp
We are planning on implementing the HQ revamp in patch 1.20. Following the release of patch 1.19, the current specs for HQ items will remain in place, so current HQ items will not be affected. Until Patch 1.20 is released, the current specs for HQ items will be used. Also, in the new specs, HQ items will only be created if every ingredient used is HQ. Obtaining HQ versions of the ingredients will require a mix of luck and skill. (We want to make sure that you will not experience a sense of futility when your synthesized item turns into NQ at the last moment.)

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Question. Is there a plan in process to upgrade potential rewards from leves to HQ, such as a Notched Bill for example? From what you state here, if the items rewarded will remain as NQ, then an HQ Vintage version of these items would be unattainable.

Uh, last time we dealt with forbidden materia...

it didn't turn out so well...

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Nope.

With 1.19 we simply get new, simplified recipes. HQs remain entirely intact and still produce +1,2,3 results.

With 1.20 the HQ system is revamped entirely and existing items are all transitioned based on their decision on which way +2s will go. The old recipes are also removed, leaving only the simplified ones.

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ah cool, thanks for clarifying that.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Uh, last time we dealt with forbidden materia...

it didn't turn out so well...

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Don't worry, we have a Meteor hanging above our heads.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

1. Nuggets
None of the new recipes added in Patch 1.19 will require nuggets. In fact, we do not plan on requiring nuggets in any of the recipes that we will be adding from here on out. However, old recipes will remain in the game for a while, so there is no need to worry about items in the process of synthesis being affected. I am thinking that the transfers to the new recipe period will go on through patch 1.20.

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Am I to assume that Ore's will be synthed straight into Ingots now, thus skipping the Nugget phase?

that looks like how its going to be davorok

So, why are we revamping HQ items and synths?

I don't understand.

It works fine as it is now....

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

So, why are we revamping HQ items and synths?

I don't understand.

It works fine as it is now....

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Convoluted recipes and dominance of Luck as a factor.

It works. It doesn't work fine.

Not necessarily saying all the upcoming changes will make everything better, however that doesn't mean everything is fine as is either.

Because there's a Meteor hanging above our heads, we need Materia to shoot that down.

Or was it the other way around...

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

So, why are we revamping HQ items and synths?

I don't understand.

It works fine as it is now....

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it's called hello kitty mode crafting.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

it's called hello kitty mode crafting.

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How do you know making the HQ materials won't be more difficult? How do you know making an HQ finished item with the HQ mats won't be more difficult than the NQ version? You don't, none of us do. The rates of success can easily be altered between the two. There are many things they haven't told us. Enough crying about it, wait until implementation before passing your final judgement.

I hate taking out the chance of making an HQ item from NQ mats. I love doing that now. Its one of those little things about the game actually enjoy. Gonna be sad to see it go.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

I hate taking out the chance of making an HQ item from NQ mats. I love doing that now. Its one of those little things about the game actually enjoy. Gonna be sad to see it go.

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Who's to say the "chance" won't come from the difficulty of the synth itself? Like if crafting an HQ finished item has a higher failure rate than the NQ one. Just a thought, completely possible.

But what about Quality increasing Ability now? They are useless in making Finished Item. Careful Synthesis too, because I don't see why anyone in their sane mind would be using anything other than Standard spam on HQ.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

But what about Quality increasing Ability now? They are useless in making Finished Item. Careful Synthesis too, because I don't see why anyone in their sane mind would be using anything other than Standard spam on HQ.

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Yup.

Those will be quite important for making HQ materials. By the time you gather your HQ ingredients for your final synth, you have essentially put in all the necessary effort, thus the final synth will just be about completion.

They're making HQ mats much more difficult to obtain, but making it so crafting an HQ final item is easy once that condition is met. It's relocating difficulty.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

But what about Quality increasing Ability now? They are useless in making Finished Item. Careful Synthesis too, because I don't see why anyone in their sane mind would be using anything other than Standard spam on HQ.

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exactly. one of the biggest complaints i heard was about doing nothing more than spamming standard. well now it becomes even more useless to do anything more than standard. bold was rendered useless because finish quality would no longer matter.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yup.

Those will be quite important for making HQ materials. By the time you gather your HQ ingredients for your final synth, you have essentially put in all the necessary effort, thus the final synth will just be about completion.

They're making HQ mats much more difficult to obtain, but making it so crafting an HQ final item is easy once that condition is met. It's relocating difficulty.

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However, only "some ingredients" will be made by crafters, and they haven't made it clear what's the processed involved in making these ingredients HQ, or if the process involves yet again HQ material.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

exactly. one of the biggest complaints i heard was about doing nothing more than spamming standard. well now it becomes even more useless to do anything more than standard. bold was rendered useless because finish quality would no longer matter.

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Actually, like I just said, they are just as important for making HQ ingredients.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

However, only "some ingredients" will be made by crafters, and they haven't made it clear what's the processed involved in making these ingredients HQ, or if the process involves yet again HQ material.

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Yoshi clearly stated that the HQ ingredients > HQ product 100% rule is only effective for final products. Making HQ mats will be at least as difficult as they are now.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Actually, like I just said, they are just as important for making HQ ingredients.

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They never said how do you make HQ ingredients.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

They never said how do you make HQ ingredients.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Basically, in order to synthesize an HQ final item, HQ versions of every ingredient must be used. Players are guaranteed to synthesize HQ items if all the ingredients used are HQ. However, it will be very difficult to obtain HQ versions of all ingredients.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

2. HQ Revamp
We are planning on implementing the HQ revamp in patch 1.20. Following the release of patch 1.19, the current specs for HQ items will remain in place, so current HQ items will not be affected. Until Patch 1.20 is released, the current specs for HQ items will be used. Also, in the new specs, HQ items will only be created if every ingredient used is HQ. Obtaining HQ versions of the ingredients will require a mix of luck and skill. (We want to make sure that you will not experience a sense of futility when your synthesized item turns into NQ at the last moment.)

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All it takes it to read between the lines in this paragraph to realize that the 100% HQ rule is not in effect for crafting of ingredients.

How difficult will it be? We shall see. There is nothing pointing out that you can make HQ ingredients with 100% success though.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

How do you know making the HQ materials won't be more difficult? How do you know making an HQ finished item with the HQ mats won't be more difficult than the NQ version? You don't, none of us do. The rates of success can easily be altered between the two. There are many things they haven't told us. Enough crying about it, wait until implementation before passing your final judgement.

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They could be jacking up the fail/sucess rate with hq mats again. I remember many, many moons ago having a high starting quality on a synth was actually quite a negative thing. using all hq mats sometimes made the synth damn near impossible to finish, even if you could breeze through it normally.

So Yoshida does reply to player question in his quote too, then could he answer us about how current gear will be converted into HQ?(+2+3 or +3 only?)

Also, do we need to get NM bloody Axe head+3 in order to make HQ from now?

That is all I want to know.

I am VERY interesting in hearing about this LAST STEP. Sounds like crafting will stay the same mini game for materia infusion but when you "finish", you know where you can Patch Up the product?... I think that's when you get a chance to take a risk and do the Forbidden Materia step. What do you guys think?

There is a way to stop all the complain about 0 +1 +2 +3 being grouped into NQ and HQ really.. I dunno why the dev bring this up when nobody ever petition about change 4 tier into 2 tier yet. I see so many petition so far, but never seen one for this yet, and doing this will get a lot of dislike no matter he give HQ to +3 or +2+3.


I think a good way to fix this would be :

1.all materials can have only 2 tier (you wanna save inventory space right?) so NQ and HQ materials.

2.the finish craft gear will still be 4 tier as 0 +1 +2 +3 (nobody dislike it being this way, and it doesn't kill inventory space)

3. NQ materials can result in crafting 0 and +1 gear, while HQ materials can result in crafting +2 and +3 gear. (This way people can make use of their craft skill better, and also not make server load with too many +3, you need both HQ materials and also skill/little luck to achieve +3 result.)

I think this could be a good mix and match and take advantage from both system, Yoshida-san.

I agree with the notion that there were some things that should be fixed in the crafting system; however, as others have said, this goes way too far.

Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis - Very Bad
Revisions to Materials and Intermediary Materials - Neutral
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements - Neutral
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements - Neutral
Simplified Color Customization - Very Good

I have seen far to many reasonably good crafting systems become over-simplified as an over reaction to them being too complex. EQ2 is a good case in point, the original system suffered from a few specific glitches (like ink for spells) and an interdependence system that made every recipe for some crafts dependent on other crafters (thus there was no simple way to skill up). In an effort to make crafting accessible, they basically made the same change that is proposed here (a one step crafting system); however, that made the system seem trivial to people interested in crafting.

I find the richness of the crafting system in FFXIV to be one of the more attractive aspects of the game. I am not sure I would stay just for the questing and combat (given the control compromises made to accommodate the eventual migration to the console) unless the crafting game is interesting. (I should mention that I tend to split my time in games equally between crafting and adventuring and tend to have crafting alts to cover the whole specturm of crafting).

I do agree that the level disparity between that required to make the finished product and to make the components, as well as that between the crafting levels and optimal level to use the product, makes crafting very frustrating and needs to be fixed. I also really like the change to the color system (I can live with the different dyes for different materials; however, getting rid of colored intermediates is wonderful).

However, I think removing components is one step too far towards simplification. As long as the components are the same or lower level to make than the completed item, I will be happy. If there are particular items where the final construction is logically simple (like axes, where the blade should be the hardest thing to make), it would make game-play sense for final construction to be by the craft that creates the hardest (and thus highest level) component.

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Originally Posted by rekijitsu

I don't think it's "Dumbing it down", I just think they're removing a lot of the bloat.

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This!

Too many FFXI and now FFXIV players confuse overcomplexity and convolution with 'difficulty' .. same as they confuse endless repetition with being 'hard'.

The crafting system as released was ridiculously overloaded with micromanagement and detail, it was only 'hard' in the sense it required someone to tolerate mindless button clicking across umpteen menus and dialogs. It requires no skill at all, since the entire synthing process is basically controlled and the outcome decided by the RNG, player 'skill' is at an absolute minimum.