The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

It becomes my business when that's the excuse they want to use for why they're in my PF. Or why I'm having a harder time carrying them in some random DF because they're constantly on the ground or otherwise doing their impression of a corpse with regards to how many buttons they're actually pushing in any given encounter.

That being said, I'd like to believe you're aware that I don't actually care what they do with their money and their time. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not sure the people described in Kamatsu's strawman actually even exist.


Really? Come on. I deserve better than some throwaway Star Wars quote. I pay me sub and do the gud deeps! I do the gud deeps! :|
Kylo Ren is a punk.


Obviously the game is friendly to casual players - except when it's not, I mean - but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is in SE's best interest to not cater to the whims of people that don't want to put any effort whatsoever into their game, that for all intents and purposes will never be a reliable revenue stream on an individual level, else we wind up with the current PvP combat system in PvE and encounters that never rise above a mildly-pitched yawn.

Let's not act like people weren't/aren't peeved at Steps of Faith, The Chrysalis, Garuda normal, etc. being nerfed. That people weren't adamant about Ozma, Nidhogg and Shinryu not receiving mechanical changes to appease the vocal backlash. That people weren't happy that 2.x had actual endgame progression structure - even if just as many, if not more, were happy when it was eventually abolished.


Don't get me started on that group. Anything they want is definitely the last thing I want, XIV and especially otherwise.


Balance is indeed the key. While I have no quick and dirty example like Wildstar on the hardcore end, I can't imagine many games can survive solely off of their fickle and unreliable casual audience. I've gone down the rabbit hole a number of times weighing theories for what the game would look like if the higher end of the skill spectrum vanished.

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Unfortunately a lot of this will come down to quarterly P&L statements and if statistics are showing a higher profit when appeasing grey tier players by dumbing down content, that's exactly what will happen. The entirety of Stormblood reeks of grey tier hand-holding with the exception of Ultimate and will likely continue until they push those that like a challenge completely away from the game. At that point the content will be based around glamor contests, party chat during "extreme" primals and "savage" raids while ordering the newest pretty outfit, mount, minion and emote from the mog station. $$ talks and grey tier players are more likely to throw their cash at SE for the thrill of that 2 minute lap dance rather than the much deeper and complex but infinitely more fulfilling experience of a truly savage raid. Instant gratification and entitlement culture at it's best.

The only real impediment to beating -any- content is getting into a group with the will and desire to clear it. Learning how to do difficult content isn't really beyond any moderately healthy individual's capacity. it's entirely practice.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Probably because the lowest common denominator there is including people who hit a button once every 30 seconds or are flat out dead half the encounter?

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Touche. I suppose somewhere in the middle would be more appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Unfortunately a lot of this will come down to quarterly P&L statements and if statistics are showing a higher profit when appeasing grey tier players by dumbing down content, that's exactly what will happen..

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there simply aren't enough high skill players to make any game work. I mean, they had to make data center wide party matching because each server often couldn't field enough raiders for the hard content at the time to staff it; if your static broke up, transferring server was a serious option, just to be close to enough of a critical mass of raiders to do things. In general, they have to design for a triangle; the base of characters tends to narrow pretty fast the harder they make content.

Even EVE, which is considered hardcore, is built on people just farming mindless pve in concord space.

The snowflakes won't stop until they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

He's really the only data we have. And the numbers in general are still low enough you could high ball them by a factor of 3 and have issues. Its not about raids in game, my initial point was that people are trying to make "serious" raiding only encompassing two fights, and i used ultimate as a point to show how silly the mindset is, because for someone who beats that nothing in the game before is a serious raid any more.

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You say you used ultimate...but ultimate was created specific with the hardcore in mind. You quote me and point me out, but I have not once stated that one needs to try Ultimate to have this discussion. As many of us have told you many many many many many many many times, O3S/O4S are the serious raids, thus if one has cleared at least one of these fights, then hey are more qualified to actually talk about enrage timers, difficulty, and such. But no, you did typical Riyah stuff and went straight to an extreme and chose Ultimate.

And on that note, if one is complaining about difficulty and enrage timers at this point (as in, not minimum iLvl, has learned the fight) on O1S and O2S, then the problem is the not the design of the fight - it's the player themselves

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You were just a convenient example to show the dangers of making maxed out content a requirement to talk about stuff.

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Such an irritating thing to say. And yet you still failed to even highlight that, because I have repeatedly said O3S...that is quite literally the halfway point of the previous raid tier. Again, if one cannot make it past the halfway point of the Deltascape tier, who are they to even bring up enrage timers? Let's be honest, if you have a halfway competent PUG group, you will not really hit the hard enrage timer on most content, provided you actually know how to do your jobs and understand the mechanics. With unsynced, the enrage timer is not really a factor in practically any of the ARR/HW primals or raids (I don't have experience with Alex savage, so anybody who recently did these at 70, feel free to correct me on the point on enrage timers.

Or were you trying to intentionally irritate me?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

there simply aren't enough high skill players to make any game work.

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And whose fault do you think that is? Because last I checked, it's not usually raiders complaining about the skill ceiling...it's more or less midcores and casuals who complain.

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Originally Posted by Miste

This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand how to use fflogs.

Do you understand what "minimum" percentile means? It's like the "who is AFK?" or "who spent the entire fight dead" parses.

You're looking at the worst possible parses and judging based on that that WAR is somehow stronger than actual DPS jobs. It simply doesn't work that way...if a DRG spends an entirety of a fight dead then yeah a WAR that stays alive is going to beat them in damage. Duh.

It just happens that there were more extremely bad minimum DRG and MCH parses than WAR. Not because WAR actually does more damage lol go look at ANY percentile besides minimum.

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Everyone really should be looking at 50th percentile. By definition 50th percentile is the average player. This is the player that knows their rotation, generally knows they need to keep their own buffs up but don't usually know when party buffs are up, may not know when to hold their burst (or may not know their burst well enough to do it at the right time/completely). In general, someone that knows their class but not how to optimize it. People below 50th percentile are those that are average and have died multiple times or have really screwed up their rotation stopped hitting the boss for an extended period of time or (for those consistently below 30th percentile) just have no idea what their rotation is or cleared the fight examining the colors in the rocks stuck on their faces. Those above 50th percentile are either getting lucky crits, getting lucky with timing their bursts for raid buffs or (for those consistently above 70th percentile) are descent at timing their bursts to match raid buffs and know the fight well enough to have at least begun to optimize. Considering that anywhere from 25% to 40% of your damage can come from auto-attacks it's REAALLY bad when an average player could literally outdps someone in the 10th percentile with just auto-attacks. Think about how bad you'd have to be to be outclassed by auto-attacks and then think about reading some guides or getting some assistance from people that know your class. When I look at my numbers, holy crap I'm sooooo embarrassed that I actually try to learn something instead of demanding the game be changed so I don't have to worry about what I'm doing wrong.

@miste, this isn't aimed at you - i'm agreeing with you that ANYTHING other than MIN is a better comparison

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do I take you seriously if you talk about job balance despite only having 3 70s?

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How is this remotely comparable? The actual equivalent would be me giving Scholar advice when it's fairly obviously I don't play it. Bobs is claiming Ultimate isn't hard yet has never even set foot inside it. As someone who has, let me tell, Ultimate is on a whole separate level. For him to make such a remark screams ignorance.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But no, you did typical Riyah stuff and went straight to an extreme

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You're usually so calm and cool but this... this is a gem. Thank you ma'am. You've brightened an otherwise boring day. Take all my likes, they're yours. Stand up to those crybullies! It's appreciated by those of us with less patience.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How is this remotely comparable? The actual equivalent would be me giving Scholar advice when it's fairly obviously I don't play it. Bobs is claiming Ultimate isn't hard yet has never even set foot inside it. As someone who has, let me tell, Ultimate is on a whole separate level. For him to make such a remark screams ignorance.

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My point is more for the tendency that I have been noticing that only 3 and 4 are the real endgame, and that you can't comment on raiding at all unless you beat 4. The job thing was an analogy to that; because leveling all jobs to 70 is a rough equivalent of gatekeeping compared to leveling only a few. As for people commenting on easiness, well it works both ways; its just annoying to people who do o1s and o2 who get all their efforts dismissed in the same manner. I keep seem to get my main points misunderstood, though I try to restate them.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

And whose fault do you think that is? Because last I checked, it's not usually raiders complaining about the skill ceiling...it's more or less midcores and casuals who complain.

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There's no fault at all. I mean there isn't simply enough players who can reach a level of skill that can populate a game. MMOs cost too much to turn into niche hardcore games that rely on a small playerbase.