Have you been checking with a parser? I hate to say it, but 392 accuracy is fairly abysmal. I regretted even going from 435 to 424 due to the misses.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
Summoner Question: Where should I spend my Myth tomes first?
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11-01-2013, 11:25 PMZholi
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11-02-2013, 12:03 AMT0rinAnd a loss of 19 spell speed. (albeit this weighs in at less than 1 int worth of damage lost, but let's be accurate all around)Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
For the record, that 3 wpn dmg, 4 int, 4 spell speed and 2 det is worth 25.4 intelligence. The 'bang for your buck' for Relic +1 is 35.43 myth spent per int gained.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
So, let's take your example. You would gain 20 int, 55 crit, 9 det, and lose 15 spell speed and 26 accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
Before we get to the accuracy, this comes out to a net increase of 48.25 intelligence. The 'bang for your buck' for upgrading these 3 pieces is 37.62 myth spent per int gained. Now, this is pretty low compared to the overall cost of the set in myth spent per int gained, and therein lies the rub. While this ratio is _almost_ as good as buying a Relic +1, there is a major downside here.
Going for AF2 Head+Body+Gloves will cause you to lose 26 accuracy. This can be a HUGE loss of damage in higher level dungeons, and easily outweigh everything you gain from the switch to AF2 gear, and then some. The potential saving grace here is that you can replace your DL Neck+Wrist with i70 crafted jewelry that is stacked with 12 accuracy each.
So, you can spend 1815 Myth and 2 million gil to end up with a good boost to your stats at a good ratio. Or you can spend 900 myth and 0 gil to end up with a good boost to your stats (though only half as much, though at half the cost) with no need to spend 2 million gil.
If you want to go down this road, you are actually better off buying AF2 Head+Body+Boots, which will mostly make up for the Accuracy loss on it's own, but you gain less damage and the efficiency of Myth spent goes down. But, it also means you don't need to spend millions in gil to make up for the lost accuracy.
So, the problem with this scenario is that it pidgeonholes you into taking AF2 hands+boots (two of the three weakest upgrades), because you can't take head (which is a stronger upgrade) because you aren't replacing the body. You have 2 scenarios that you are comparing... one where you upgrade to the 3 strongest pieces and take a huge loss of accuracy and two where you upgrade to 2 of the weakest pieces and end up with way more accuracy than you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
Why are we boxing all potential upgrades into this 2000 myth requirements? Seems pretty arbitrary, and is only good for supporting one specific point.
If you are already conceding that it is OK to require someone to spend millions in gil to support a transition from DL into AF2, then by that same merit you can concede that the same is OK to do if you want to buy Relic +1 and AF2 body first, and NOT two 495 myth pieces.
If you go that route and supplement it with a Vanya hat of casting, (since we're spending millions of gil one way or another, right?) you end up gaining 12 int, 45 crit, 30 det, 3 wep dmg and losing 26 spell speed and 27 accuracy. This comes out to be the equivalent of a 57.2 int upgrade, for a whopping 31.91 myth per int. This is definitely the best upgrade in terms of power, and has the same 27 accuracy lost compared to going AF2 Head+Body+Gloves. It also requires you to spend the same amount of money to supplement the lost accuracy with crafted gear.
Yes, of course. You hit harder with 1815 myth worth of upgrades than you do with 900 myth worth. Super math required there.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
Or you could do the smart thing and get Relic +1 and the AF2 Body and be better off by far. The stats, do indeed, speak for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
I think I've definitely proved how your approach is wrong, and is misrepresenting what the various upgrade paths are, and their pros and cons. Not everyone is going to have 2 million gil to dump into crafted accessories to make up for all the accuracy you lose taking your preferred path. Not everyone wants to gather up 3000 myth before spending any of it.
Relic +1 is the single best upgrade you take from a Myth spent per damage gained perspective. There is no arguing that, all the numbers support it. Where you go from there is determined by how fat your wallet is, but in no scenario is the route you advocate a good idea.
And want to hear something funny? If you ignore the Relic +1 and just go straight for full AF2.. you get a good boost to damage from AF2 Head+Body+Gloves (really just Head+Body) because you are eliminating the DL pieces that have no +crit, leaving you with a full set of crit gear on all slots, and then when you inevitably replace the Pants+Boots, you actually lose damage going from DL to AF2. (this is also why AF2 pants+boots are not BiS) Full AF2 is a bad idea. From a transition perspective, dropping 43 accuracy and only making up 15 of it, is a bad idea. Everything you propose is a bad idea.
There are good routes to take in upgrading a SMN from DL, but what you advocate for is full of misinformation and bad assumptions. -
11-02-2013, 12:15 AMT0rin392 accuracy is awful in Coils and sometimes in AK. Upgrading straight to AF2 body from DL is hard, because you have to supplement the lost accuracy somewhere. The only real route is to get a crafted Hat+Neck+Wrist and slot them (where necessary) with Accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
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11-02-2013, 12:46 AMparadigmfellowI have not had trouble in Coils since I changed the body, if anything I miss Miasma sometimes. I have not missed in AK either. Sorry, but I don't have that kind of gil, nor can I collect that kind of gil to get those pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
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11-02-2013, 12:49 AMparadigmfellowNo, I have just been keeping a visual representation. I don't even know how to use a parser. I am much happier now and I am really not having an issue with the less acc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
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11-02-2013, 12:58 AMT0rinOr rather, you don't know about the issues you are having. You are most certainly having issues though if you have sub-400 accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
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11-02-2013, 01:04 AMparadigmfellowQuote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
I am really not seeing anything and the parties that I have been with have not complained about my performance. What matters is that I am happy with my decision and I can only continue to improve as I get more pieces. -
11-02-2013, 02:29 AMKeveeYes, you have. Especially your pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
You won't miss in AK, or anything but Coil, so I don't know why he said that.
But you will miss in coil, and that low of accuracy means your DPS is horrible. -
11-02-2013, 02:49 AMparadigmfellowLike I said before, I am happy with my decision. I am not denying that I am missing. I have only been missing Miasma once in a while in coil and I have made it to turn 4 (in a pug group) since I had my AF2 body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-02-2013, 02:53 AMKevee..More like.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
Ruin/Ruin II/Miasma/Miasma II/Thunder/Fester have been missing, and your pet is probably at something stupid like 60-70% accuracy.
Newsflash: You got carried. Turn 1 and 2 aren't hard, and neither are a real DPS check. Let me know when you beat turn 4, the first real DPS/competency check. -
11-02-2013, 03:02 AMT0rinI didn't know for sure, I was going out on a limb. I knew of the accuracy reqs for Coil, but concede this point, I was in error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-02-2013, 03:04 AMparadigmfellowQuote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Whatever, I am just saying what I saw. :) I am happy and that is all that matters. -
11-02-2013, 03:11 AMglimyeah, you mentioned happiness like three times now. (cause it's very relevant, your happiness level I mean)Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
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11-02-2013, 07:56 AMcoffeeroxYou're not reading it right. I'm speaking in general terms. Nowhere did I mention Limit Breaks. I only responded to that because apparently everyone thinks that the final damage output is contingent upon the weapon. It's not. Your statistics modify weapon damage therefore if you get a higher increase in Int/Det then you're going to modify for higher weapon damage than 3 on the Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
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11-02-2013, 08:00 AMcoffeeroxThey're not. Those pieces are designed to work as a whole. If you scroll back some pages, you'll see I outlined AF2 stats altogether. You get 91 Acc for wearing AF2 compared to 59 on DL. Just wear the damn set as it's better and stop doing this individual piece BS. It's certainly not getting Kevee anywhere now that she's talking about switching equipment sets just to summon pets LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
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11-02-2013, 08:09 AMT0rinIf. Except for 900 Myth, you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeerox
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11-02-2013, 08:26 AMcoffeeroxI don't know how many times I can say that I'm not planning on going into Coil anytime soon. The Head/Body/Hands will actually cause me to perform better in AKQuote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
Whoops I meant that I was taking the Head/Body/GlovesQuote:
So, the problem with this scenario is that it pidgeonholes you into taking AF2 hands+boots (two of the three weakest upgrades), because you can't take head (which is a stronger upgrade) because you aren't replacing the body.
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11-02-2013, 08:27 AMcoffeeroxIf I were to buy Relic +1, yes that is what I would do. I had already written up something about that but didn't publish it b/c it wasn't immediately relevant (and had to keep post count down)Quote:
If you go that route and supplement it with a Vanya hat of casting, (since we're spending millions of gil one way or another, right?) you end up gaining 12 int, 45 crit, 30 det, 3 wep dmg and losing 26 spell speed and 27 accuracy.
No, it's not, and you're wrong. You're advocating not using the entire AF2 set even when I proved the AF2 set as a whole is better than DL (really the only other set we have at the moment). You keep talking about losing accuracy but using the whole set gives you 91 versus 59.Quote:
There are good routes to take in upgrading a SMN from DL, but what you advocate for is full of misinformation and bad assumptions.
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11-02-2013, 10:18 AMT0rin
*facepalm*
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11-02-2013, 10:38 AMchococo
A little off topic, and kinda depends on preferences. Would you upgrade relic+1 for several jobs before getting any AF2 pieces? Since allagan weapons do not come by readily?
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11-02-2013, 11:46 AMcoffeeroxYeah keep that palm attached to your faceQuote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
For SEVERAL jobs? You do realize that's 900 a pop right? Each Relic you are upgrading you are getting more and more behind on AF2 for your main class. You upgrade ONE relic, then outfit your alts with Garuda weapons and Relic whenever you get the chance to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by chococo
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11-03-2013, 05:32 AMPiperCI have alternate jobs however Summoner is my main and my priority as far as gearing is concerned. I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you're not looking to gear your Summoner as a priority. Considering AF2 Head, Body, and Gloves are considered BiS... I suppose if you'd rather balance out all your jobs and not pick 1 is up to you, but no I do not suggest itQuote:
Originally Posted by chococo
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11-03-2013, 12:04 PMCrescent_Dusk
It's mostly a pointless topic if he doesn't intend to tackle Turn 5 anytime soon. You can beat 1-4 purely in Darklight. So if Turn 5 is not an immediate possibility, feel free to gear your alts.
It just doesn't matter. 2.1 is December, and it will likely be till February/March for 2.2, which is when there will be actually content progressing from Turn 5. 2.1 is a hard mode dungeon and crystal tower, all likely below Turn 5 in difficulty and rewards.
You have a LONG, LONG time before you need to start worrying about being geared for the next difficulty tier. -
11-11-2013, 09:04 PMetcxxx
I ended up getting both the tunic and gloves last night from turn 2 but it looks like I'll have to still end up getting the myth body and gloves. I'm currently using a demagogue mask, so should I upgrade to the myth helmet first? Or save the tomes until I can get chest first?
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11-12-2013, 03:29 AMZholiGet anything and everything with accuracy. I just checked your character on lodestone, and you have 365 accuracy, which is absolutely atrocious. You just lost the two main accuracy pieces in the Darklight set, and now you have basically none. I ran you through a simulator and it actually shows you with higher DPS in full Darklight. http://chocobro.com/sim.php Myth body is now very close to the bottom of your priority list. You probably want legs, belt, and head for a total boost of 60 accuracy, which would still leave you wanting a bit more, even then. You might also get the boots, but it would more than likely only be a temporary piece you'd want to replace with Allagan eventually, so i don't know if you'd want to spend myth there. It would, however, give you as much of an accuracy boost as myth gloves, but you wouldn't have to replace gear that's already i90.Quote:
Originally Posted by etcxxx
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11-12-2013, 04:06 AMetcxxxThanks for the advice. I was really disappointed when I noticed the drop in accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
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11-12-2013, 04:11 AMT0rin
Have to step very carefully as an SMN moving out of Darklight. Since we have so much accuracy bundled up in the body slot, and our 2 options to replace it with i90 gear have none, you basically have to go out of your way to get the extra accuracy before you can even consider replacing the body slot. The i90 leg/feet/head slots all have accuracy, and that is where it needs to come from. Also, don't be in a hurry to ditch the DL jewelry (earrings/ring) with i90 pieces (which have 0 accuracy) until you are ready to eat the loss. If equipping a new piece of i90 ever puts you below 430 accuracy, I'd probably not do it.
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11-12-2013, 01:31 PMTraeSnow
So from what I gather I shouldn't use AF+1 chest? (Or AF2 from what other people call it, I user af+1 though)
First thing I upgraded was relic to relic+1, mainly for the glow but hey more damage with sparkles is awesome. :D
I now have 950 myth and want to buy the af+1 chest and use demagogue hat until I get enough for the horn. Would this be a bad idea? I don't plan on doing Coil in the next few weeks, not due to laziness, I would love to try it but my FC is small and not a lot of geared people.
Currently I have full Darklight armor with a Myth Belt. I also have all DL Accessories and an Astral HQ Ring with Crit and Vit melds. Kevee mentioned I should be getting Myth acc but are they better than crafted HQ Accs if I max Accuracy/Crit on them in melds.
From my understanding, I thought BiS for SMN was Myth horn, doublet, gloves, then Coil Belt, Pants, Shoes. With Accessories that gave Crit/Acc. Is this not the case? -
11-12-2013, 02:51 PMxxalucardI went in a similar order myself (Relic +1 --> Ring --> Chest -->) which I believe is the one of the best starting orders you can do. You'll need the ring no matter what and the chest is a huge upgrade for Vit/INT/Crit (all important stats for turn 5). The other accessories have similar stats with the myth ones (in some cases both allagan and myth have the same crit bonus) so I would suggest holding off on buying them until you have the main 3 BiS body pieces (head / body / gloves) first. Of course if you get the caster allagan equivalents of them while you're saving up tomes, you're probably better off investing in them first.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraeSnow
Assuming you get no coil drops at all I would go Relic+1 --> Ring --> Chest --> Head --> Gloves --> Neck --> Bracelet. Between getting the chest and head piece you will have to compensate for the lack of accuracy with accuracy-melded astral / rosegold accessories (the earrings tend to be fairly cheap compared to the others) and food (such as hq stuffed cabbage). It's a bit expensive and people who are more into theory than experience would suggest against it because of the accuracy gap, but honestly I never had an issue with missing to the point that it made my group struggle at all with dps....in any turn (even turn 5 conflags).
It's really not worth it to waste your myth tomes on temporary accuracy upgrades like legs/boots as some suggested because eventually you will replace them with the allagan ones and then they will literally be useless. There's so many smarter alternatives to give yourself extra accuracy, and honestly if you don't have at least a few i90 body pieces you won't be ready for turn 5 anyway and that's the only place it could even be an issue. -
11-13-2013, 05:15 AMTraeSnow
Well getting Myth belt was a mistake. I regret it but the reason I bought it was because a friend of mine who does Coil said I needed 475 Accuracy and I was at 436 or something. So I got the belt to help boost it, then I read that max accuracy for SMN/BLM was 435 (And 44X for Garuda) so I was a bit disappointed that I was mislead into getting that belt. :C I wish we could sell back Myth items for tomes QQ If I can sell it back I can get the stuff I need now.
Why is Myth ring so good? It has spell speed, isn't that a bad stat for SMN? -
11-13-2013, 05:32 AMxxalucardIt has 13 int and 16 crit, and beats every other ring you can get in the game. There is no INT/CRIT/DET ring so while the spell speed *is* a bad stat for smn it mainly just happens to be there on the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraeSnow
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11-13-2013, 05:34 AMRoy_M
OK in my Case I went for Relic+1 I m about to get the body next week (since I m still using my Af1 Body) I hate how the DL Cloak looks, altho I might end buying it for my BLM and have an acc boost later on for summoning, I read somewhere it is worth to have full acc set on summoning then switch to INT-Crit-Det once the Summon is up, even when it shows it updates over time but in a LONG time. I feel Vanya it s like way overated for me spending 2kk on that isn t just worthy for the stats when you can have other options altho I guess is about preference. Acc cap it s highly required ONLY on Coil as people mentioned and probably after turn4 if you aren t aiming into those for now you are good without the acc boost of some pieces because if you don t "miss" you wont need acc anyways since it doesn t really boost your crit or anything else.
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11-13-2013, 05:51 AMT0rinNot really, Myth belt, while being slightly less damage than Allagan belt, actually turns out to be BiS because it has Accuracy that SMN need to hit the Garuda accuracy cap. If you got all 'pure damage' pieces, you would end up with something like 428 accuracy, which you could augment to ~432 with food, but your Garuda accuracy would be crappy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraeSnow
It also updates when various buffs are cast on the pet, i.e. Rouse, Fey Covenant, and who knows how many other spells. Relying on an alternate set used when summoning is just not reliable over time. You either go accuracy for the pet full time, or you accept sub-par accuracy on the pet for Coils. (and future content)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy_M
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11-13-2013, 09:18 AMSeobitIt's Spur, not Rouse. Basically anything that modifies stats relating to gear. Rouse is a buff applied directly to the potency of skills so it doesn't reset the pet, while Spur affects the attack power stat which is a modification to a stat that is relevant to gear. Fey Covenant affects magic defense, Fey Light and Fey Glow affect the speed stats, so all three of those reset the pet's stats. As far as I know these are the only party buffs that could have the pet reset.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
It's always possible to simply tell your group's Scholar to not use Covenant or Glow/Light, but the loss of Spur by itself makes accuracy set barely worthwhile. -
11-13-2013, 09:31 AMvaraville
If we are unable to do Turn4 for allagan pants/earrings for whatever reason, would the myth equivalents work? (at least temporarily?)
and it sounds like there are mixed opinions on the belt... -
11-13-2013, 09:34 AMT0rinWork, sure, but you really don't want to spend 825+495 myth on 'temporary' items, I wouldn't think.Quote:
Originally Posted by varaville
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11-13-2013, 12:13 PMvaravilleWas just a thought, currently I'm just hoarding my myths and planning out my gearset piece-by-piece, and I don't think I'm gonna be doing turn4 anytime soon v:Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
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11-13-2013, 12:44 PMT0rinBetter plan would be to get a bracelet/necklace crafted and max out accuracy on that, and use that in lieu of the accuracy you need from allagan pants.Quote:
Originally Posted by varaville
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11-14-2013, 12:17 AMZholiEven if I had the Allagan pants I'd use the myth ones instead (in a final set). Myth belt and legs are better than Allagan if you need the accuracy. And as a SMN, you do. People are just so in love with crit that they can't accept this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by varaville
And personally I think crafted gear is completely worthless, especially considering we're getting an ilevel 80 set in one month. I am not spending money on gear that will barely last one month. -
11-14-2013, 01:02 AMT0rinFrom my best estimate, you need 108 accuracy from your gear (449 total) to max out Garuda accuracy in Turn 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
With full Myth gear (head, body, hands, legs, feet, waist, neck, wrist, ring) and allagan ring/earring, you have 113 accuracy, more than you need.
Using Myth legs and feet, you gain accuracy, but lose more damage than any other possible avenue of gaining that accuracy. For the legs, you gain 10 accuracy, but at the loss of 5.1 int worth of stats. For the feet, you gain 6 accuracy, but at the loss of 3.45 int worth of stats. These two sidegrades are by far the worst in terms of accuracy gained for damage lost.
In order of most effective upgrade, it goes like this:
Hero's Belt (replace Allagan) > Astral Ring (replace Hero's) > Rose Gold Earrings (replace Allagan) > Astral Bracelet (replace Hero's) > Astral Choker (replace Hero's) > Summoner's Trousers (replace Allagan) > Summoner's Thighboots (replace Allagan)
So if you start with the BiS set from a damage perspective (myth head/body/hands/neck/wrist/ring + allagan pants/boots/earring/ring), you have 86 accuracy. Alright, 22 to go. Hero's Belt and Astral ring offer the best accuracy gains per int (stat worth) lost, for a +11 and +12 accuracy boost, respectively. That puts you 1 point over the accuracy cap for Garuda.
So, as of now, the BiS set looks like this:
Myth Head
Myth Body
Myth Hands
Myth Waist
Allagan Legs
Allagan Feet
Myth Neck
Allagan Earrings
Myth Bracelet
Astral Ring (pentamelded for +12 crit, +3 accuracy)
Allagan Ring
Any other combination of items may result in sufficient accuracy to hit 100% on Garuda in Turn 5, but it would leave you with less DPS. There is no middle ground, there is no gray area. There is the best, then everything else.