Red Mage as possible new tank class

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Originally Posted by Kitru

RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability.

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They're frontline mages, not melee fighters. Non-MMO RDM meleed to conserve MP, not because their melee was good. FFXI RDMs were given the Mystic Knight's Spellblade, along with Refresh and Convert, because no one wanted RDM in groups. FFXI Mystic Knights were turned into tanks because Square shot themselves in the foot by giving Spellblade to RDM.

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

There is also still the possibility of it being added as an "advanced" job (combining whm/blm), but so far that has only been confirmed as something they are considering.

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I still find the idea of an "advanced job" somewhat dubious, mainly because it either compounds the number of potential end options or implies that you're going to have *very* few real combinations. I also begs the question of how they would work, given that the existing jobs provide 5 abilities, and that's it, right now.

I'd prefer Red Mage to be primarily DPS focused with supoprtive abilities, really.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

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Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

Mystic knights and RDMs aren't really all that similar aside from the fact that they wield swords and cast magic-like effects. In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic. In most FF, the Mystic Knight's signature skill is Spellblade, because they primarily swing their weapon.

This is what I would like.

Red Mage would be dps support. I like the idea of mixing jobs, mainly cuz I'm not sure this could come from a class we already have. Or they could just add a one handed sword user base class (why isn't there already one?) and have red Mage be the job.
Add a class called thief and have ninja be the job. These would be dps.

tank would be samurai and be similar to auron in ffx and the class in ffx2.

Dark knight would be a melee dps as well. I would stem off of dragoon maybe since they use scythes. Unless they use a two handed great sword like in ffx2.

But most of all I want a gun class. Let it be the musketeer that uses the guns that merlwyb has and the job would be gunslinger and they would use dual magitek pistols.

The reason I say this is cuz as of right now there is only one disciple of war ranged option. All other types have two to pick from. Two tanks, two ranged disciple of magic dps, two melee disciple of war, and two DoM healers.

Ps. I really want a DoW healer like dancer maybe since alchemist can't be it. Unless they make engineer a healer that uses magitek gadgets or something.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic.

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Well, the reason that they *need* something as strong as doublecast is because they have an, effectively, terrible spell list. To be able to compete with the other casters, they need some advantage beyond just having access to the weakest spells of both schools. Doublecast exists less as an extension/definition of their being a raw caster than as the ability for them to actually be *effective* when they choose to cast. It allows them to either throw out damage like an offensive caster, at a steep cost thanks to effectively doubling the mp cost, heal like a defensive caster, at a similarly steep cost, or toss out damage and healing in the same turn, which is something unique to them. They get to be effective by having a better economy of action to make up for lower potency actions.

I also wouldn't say that they primarily cast magic either. They've always used swords and have always dealt a fair deal of their damage through melee. They're JoATs. Saying that they're primarily casters when they're always equally effective at stabbing things, healing allies, and exploding enemies is a bit disingenuous. They're less effective at any of those aspects as any of the specialist classes, but they do all of them equally well.

It's because of this that it's most likely that they'll end up being DPS: melee and offensive magic sync up effectively for DPS, and defensive magic can easily be redone as support abilities. The economy of action that Doublecast provides could either be accomplished by having spells cast via melee attacks (i.e. action free casts) or having a CD that doubles spell speed for a short while. I would expect for the various en-element spells to be baseline for the class and stuff like Doublecast to be part of the Red Mage proper.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

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魔法剣士/Mystic Knight was basically a black mage that cast their nukes through a sword; that was it. They were so one-dimensional that the concept was converted to sword enchanting and given to RDM in FFXI, which looking at spellswords and sword&magic archetypes, it makes sense. It's testimony to hybridity, not to mention it looks awesome as hell.

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In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast

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Building RDM around double cast would be pointless because then you're obviously making up for a weak spell list. Some form of it may be acceptable (like my suggested "Double" ability), but even then I can admit you'd have PvP concerns over it (which should always be kept in mind because PvP is a part of this game).

The main thing about RDM in an MMORPG is that the melee and magic sides of the job cannot be treated separately like in the console FFs. The abilities have to mesh and combine into a greater whole in order to be a job that can function acceptably within the trinity. I've harped on this before, but outside of the console FF's, RDM's defining traits should be how they apply the stuff they borrowed from Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage. A BLM may use Fire to blow up a door into a room, where a RDM may use their weaker version of Fire to melt the lock. A Fighter can hit someone for really high physical damage, whereas a RDM may ensorcel their sword so that it does the expected inferior physical damage but also make up the difference through the damage by Enfire.

RDM melee damage was terrible, and their magic damage was even worse, even with Double Cast. Their melee damage outscales their magic damage because RDM are barred from obtaining the best magic, but not barred from wearing the best equipment. In FFV, I distinctly remember Dancers dealing more damage in general than RDM. Even the FFV BRD had its damage role niche by demolishing undead and dragons.

To be able to compete at all, non-MMO RDM were relegated to a role that utilized spells that didn't scale with stats. In other words, buffing and debuffs. Doublecast allowed them to throw out more buffs and debuffs sooner.

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look. Other people, like myself, hated how the FFXI RDM turned out because their only support ability of any value was Refresh, turning them into nothing more than Refresh bots.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

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I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs.

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Hybrid-role classes always end up getting screwed over in trinity MMOs. Hybrids are all about generalization; the trinity is all about specialization. The worst thing about the early MMOs, in my opinion, was the hybrid tax: even if your role was as a DPS/healer/tank, because you had some cross-role functionality you were automatically relegated to inferior effectiveness at your actual role. The hybrid tax was an early justification for poor balance, which is why you'll almost never find an MMO nowadays that still believes in the hybrid tax: all DPS is equal, even if some of that DPS happens to have a baseline heal (which pretty much always ends up being completely and utterly worthless thanks to not having the gear, traits, or talents when you're DPSing to be anything beyond a token ability).

The JoAT aspect of Red Mage has to come across in the theme, the mechanics have to bring together melee with casting, and the role has to remain specialized.

I could easily see it as a class that bounces between MP and TP consuming abilities much like THM/BLM bounces between chewing through MP and regaining it super fast: you alternate between using TP abilities and MP abilities with relevant "combos" for each. I would expect it to be a DoW class (mainly because it uses leather/chain rather than cloth so it would be using DoW gear along with BRD and MNK) and probably be combo based.

Another way to accomplish the hybrid design would be by having combos utilizing both MP and TP abilities, much like the suggested Cure combo for PLD, wherein you start off with a baseline attack, move into a more advanced melee, and then end it with an actual spell (or attack/spell/attack, but I don't think that sounds as likely). You could even manage to bring in some WHM functionality by allowing the combos to branch out into either a damage spell or a healing spell (so you're either doing full DPS with the casting or trading off your big hit to provide a middling heal; I would probably expect it to be something like an AoE/self heal or AoE/self absorb shield rather than one you have to explicitly target). This construct could use spells that you have to actually hardcast, but I think that would feel more than a bit clunky. I would think that all of the "spells" would be instant casts, at least instant when you're using them as part of the combos.

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

KITRU...

I know I am probably going to sound super nooby but what is hardcast? I've seen a few people say that but I'm not sure what it means.

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Originally Posted by Meta-Flare

I know I am probably going to sound super nooby but what is hardcast? I've seen a few people say that but I'm not sure what it means.

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"Hardcast" refers to using an ability is such a way that it has a cast bar rather than having it execute instantly. In FFXIV, pretty much every "cast" is a hardcast so it's not an important differentiation at the moment. In most MMOs, there are procs that allow certain abilities to be used instantly after casting something else. "Hardcasting" would be using it without that proc that makes it cast instantly.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

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Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

Even if you allowed cross-classing you have the 5-ability limit as well as balance concerns. Sword&magic hybrids sacrifice range for their ability to be decent in close combat, and I doubt the RDM soul crystal would reduce the range of select cross-classed spells to melee range for it to work out. I've been cooking up RDM redesigns since I realized the job was a buff-bot with token debuffs 7 years ago, so at this point I'm simply giving suggestions based on what I know the game's combat system can do.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

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First off, the abilities that can be cross-classed are based upon the class that you're currently in, not a default list. For example, a SCH can get Cleric Stance from CNJ but no other class/job can. The fact that there is a generic list that some classes share is purely coincidence. As such, it would be entirely possible for a RDM to get access to Fire and Blizzard, though I doubt they would since they use the fundamental mechanic of THM as part of their baseline function.

Secondly, just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using. My design would keep them using a similar number as any other DoW class (which, yes, I would make it based off of; not sure where you got the supposition that it would be DoM). You would have 1 combo starter, 2-3 combo intermediates (1-2 TP "physical" attacks and 1 MP "magical"), and probably ~5 combo finishers (1 physical, 1 Fire attack, 1 Thunder attack, 1 Blizzard attack, 1 Cure/Protect attack; none of them have to be *named* Fire/Blizz/Thund either; could easily go with Flash, Freeze, Bolt, and Heal). That's *barely* more than a WAR gets and could easily be managed by having fewer off-GCD abilities to use. You could probably do without so many combo finishers, but I like the idea of having access to all of the "basic" spells. The only thing you'd "need' to do is cap the total number of abilities provided by the base class at what WAR gets.

I'd have all of the "cast" finishers deal bonus combo damage of their element and apply a relevant benefit on top of it: fire finisher applies a DoT, thunder finisher has a chance to paralyze, ice finisher applies heavy, cure finisher applies a smallish HoT to you and all allies within a small radius. Have all of them based off of attack power to prevent the normal hybrid stat problems. I'd likely give em a stance that lets em use Dex instead of Str for attack power, since I don't see FNC or RDM being strong as much as agile.

I don't think that the developers should feel restricted by the mechanics that other games used. RDM doesn't have to use the exact same spells as RDM and WHM, nor should it be *forced* to draw additionals from them to be able to perform their job. Additionals are supposed to be just that: additional abilities, not fundamental abilities. All RDM would need to do is have spells *similar* in theme to the low level spells that a WHM and BLM get. After that, it should be all unique class abilities that show that they're not just a diluted combination of two others.

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The issue is that it just doesn't fit with the given role: RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability.

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I missed this the first time I read through this thread and caught it as I was rereading some stuff just now.

I'm not exactly sure where the lack of survivability comes from, considering that in older FFs it could wear virtually all but the heavy plate armors, heal itself if necessary, and in XI, had Phalanx and Stoneskin to further back it up. Nor do I quite understand what exactly you were trying to say, in case I misinterpreted it.

we dont need anymore dps thats for sure, i hope they dont start adding 50 new DPS classes to appease the little kids, i hate those 1 hour queues

Would prefer Dancer honestly as a tank with high evasion and buffs.

http://youtu.be/C5Lfb5dOQSA?t=1m5s

I mean they are portrayed as these awesome fighters who can gracefully avoid hits while going toe to toe with multiple enemies.

It just screams dodge tank to me. I know it's portrayed as a evasion/support but honestly all the scenes you see them battling in they don't really seem like straight up healers and it would be cool to see a change.

If red mage was ever implemented in this game, a tank would be the only possible way to go, it would still be butchering the class IMHO, maybe make Red mage a class and have it branch into a caster and a melee job, would be a better idea.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

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While taking up space in the base class' arsenal to justify this. Nevermind that this blatantly clashes with the base class that would then be able to equip the RDM soul. I wouldn't expect a fencer to know how to cast magic offhand. I'd expect them to coat their weapons with poison or maybe learn a simple enchant to further pierce enemy defenses, and that's what I kept in mind with my suggestion. Something your experienced mages would scoff at but can still turn the tide of a fight in the right hands.

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As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using.

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You're underestimating the amount of abilities that can come with a hybrid job. You also forgot why they purged abilities and spells and combined them in some cases: to avoid ability bloat because it would obviously clash with intended gameplay through the PS3. I called this back when people were crying over Protect and Shell being combined into 1 spell, THM/BLM gaining only half of the elemental wheel and enfeebles/debuffs being melded into formerly standalone spells like Stone and Aero. I knew the reasoning and was fine with it back then, and have kept it in mind to this day.

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In the spirit of sportsmanship and because I'm bored, let's assign abilities to a pretend Fencer. I'll keep your words in consideration, despite disagreeing with them at pretty much every turn. To go along with a picture I once made, we'll use lancer as the base and change things where appropriate.

Abilities
01 Quick Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X.
02 Reveal - Decreases target's damage resistance by X% for 12 seconds.
04 Stocatta - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Combo => Quick Thrust: X+Y Potency
06 Graze - Parry the next two physical attacks, reducing damage taken by 35% per attack.
08
10 Hamstring - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's movement speed by 20% for X seconds.
12 Soul Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's resistance to magic damage for 10 seconds.
15 Fleche - Lunges at a target and delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Must be more than 5 yalms from the target. 10 yalm range.
18 Burn - Deals fire damage with a potency of 50. Combo => Soul Thrust: 100 potency. Damage over time with a potency of 25 for 18 seconds.
22 Frost -
26 Shock -
30 Triple Pin - Delivers a three-fold attack with a potency of X. Combo => Stocatta: <fill in>
34
38 Froissement - Interrupt the enemy's spell or channeled attack.
42 Brandish - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all enemies in a cone before you.
46 Glory Slash - Delivers an attack with a potency of 20 to all enemies in a cone before you. If the main target is affected by Burn, Frost or Shock, the effect is spread to all enemis hit by Glory Slash.
50 Death Blossom - Delivers a four-fold attack with a potency of 200. Doubles the duration of Burn, Frost and Shock.

Traits
08 Enhanced Dexterity (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 2.
14 Enhanced Reveal - Extends Damage Resistance Down duration inflicted by Reveal to 30 seconds.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 4.
20 Perfect Graze - While Graze is active you can parry spells as well as physical attacks.
24 Enhanced Dexterity III (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 6.
28 Enhanced Hamstring - Hamstring now decreases enemy movement speed by 40%.
32
36
40
44
50

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Red Mage abilities

30 Magic Sword: Stance. Using Burn, Frost or Shock enchants your attacks to do additional damage of their respective element for 45 seconds.
35 Stun: 20 yalm range. Stuns target for up to 5 seconds. 35 second recast.
40 Double: Doubles the potency, cost and cooldown of the next spell or weapon skill.
45
50

I'll leave you to fill in the rest. I'll go get some sleep in the meanwhile.

This actually makes me think of my idea for RDM/MST(mystic knight) coming from Fencer class: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...night-Proposal

I basically make Fencer a DPS debuffer that turns into RDM for melee mage DPS or MST for tanking. MST makes a better tank in my opinion than RDM but again just my opinion. Please give a look if you haven't and like it so SE might see and get some ideas :)

One of the first things you'd need to do would be to add a stance (or trait) that allows you to use DEX instead of STR for melee attacks, probably at level 2.

Reveal would need to only apply to piercing damage to prevent *massive* value inflation. An improved Reveal trait later on (40-50) *could* have it apply to more than one damage type, but not all.

I would also only make one of the "combo spells" a baseline functionality of the Fencer. As you said yourself, the Fencer shouldn't be hugely into magic. One variation might be to have Magic Sword act somewhat like Defiance insofar as it adds bonus functionality to existing combo attack (this is actually something I want to go with; I know, I'm so fickle in design, but that's what happens when you do the brainstorming thing).

Also, I'm going to avoid applying levels to everything. That just gets wonky and hard to organize. The gear construct I'm envisioning is a rapier in the main hand and a main gauche (parrying dagger) in the other.

There are 17 "slots" for class abilities, 11 slots for class traits, and 5 slots for job abilities. None of them are presented in the order in which they would be received.

For later reference, the class would be treated as an mDPS class by default for purposes of Limit Break (this will make sense when you get to the job abilities).

Class Abilities:

1. Primero: 150 potency attack

2. Secundo: 100 potency attack, Combo: Primero, 200 potency

3. Flourish: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 220 potency
Freecasting: Attack deals fire damage and further fire damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 20 (Burn)
Magic Sword: Attack deals fire damage and further fire damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 20 (Burn)

4. Weaving Strike: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, increase parry chance by 20% for 12 seconds
Freecasting: You and all allies within 5m gain an absorb shield, potency 100
Magic Sword: You gain an absorb shield for 10 seconds equal to 300% of damage dealt

5. Lightning Thrust: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 260 potency
Freecasting: Attack deals lightning damage and 15% chance to paralyze target for 5 seconds (Shock)
Magic Sword: Attack deals lightning damage and 15% chance to paralyze target for 5 seconds

6. Hamstring: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 150 potency and 30% heavy for 18 seconds
Freecasting: Attack deals ice damage, heavy is increased to 40% and ice damage over time, potency 10 (Freeze)
Magic Weapon: Attack deals ice damage, target's attack speed and cast speed are reduced by 20% for 18 seconds

7. Terzo: 100 potency attack, Combo: Primero, 160 potency and increases critical hit chance by 30% for 18 seconds
Freecasting: Deals 20 additional potency for each of Burn, Shock, and Freeze on the target
Magic Weapon: increased enmity (x3)

8. Moullinet: 100 potency attack, Combo: Terzo, target takes damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 35

9. Glorioso: 100 potency attack, Combo: Terzo, 280 potency
Freecasting: Recovers MP, no MP cost
Magic Weapon: Recovers MP, increased enmity (x6)

10. Feint: Increase critical hit chance by 25%, removed when you score a critical hit or 10 sec, off-GCD, 30 second CD

11. Riposte: Can only be used after a parry, off-GCD, 200 potency attack

12. Strip Armor: 120 potency attack; reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% for 18 seconds

13. Pommel Strike: 130 potency attack, stun target for 3 seconds, 30 sec CD, off GCD

14. Skewer: potency 135 attack to all enemies in 5y line
Magic Weapon: increased enmity

15. Luck Over Skill: Increase critical hit chance by 30% for 10 seconds, off-GCD, 45 second CD
Magic Weapon: When you score a critical hit while this ability is active, parry chance is increased by 30% for 10 seconds

16. Offhand Toss: 120 potency 15y ranged attack
Magic Weapon: increased enmity

17. Renew Spirit: Restore hp, TP, and MP, Cure Potency 150, 200 TP, 20% MP based off of attack power

Class Traits:

1. Enhanced Moullinet: Increase Duration to 30 seconds
2. Enhanced Feint: Increase critical hit chance to 50%
3. Enhanced Weaving Strike: Increase duration to 18 seconds
4. Enhanced Luck Over Skill: Decrease CD to 30 seconds
5. Enhanced Dexterity I: Increase Dex by 2
6. Enhanced Dexterity II: Increase Dex by 4
7. Enhanced Dexterity III: Increase Dex by 6
8. Agile Fighter: Use Dexterity instead of Strength for melee attacks

RDM Job Abilities:

1. Freecasting: Stance. While active, some of your attacks allow you to cast a linked spell. Such abilities are given an MP cost in addition to their TP cost. If you do not have the necessary MP, attack resolves without the additional benefit
2. Healer's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their healing effects increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; While this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a healer, cannot be used while Warrior's Aura or Caster's Aura is active
3. Warrior's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their attacks increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; while this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a tank, cannot be used while Healer's Aura or Caster's Aura is active
4. Caster's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their spells increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; while this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a caster, cannot be used while Healer's Aura or Warrior's Aura is active
5. Double Time: Increase skill speed by 100% for 10 seconds, 2 minute CD

MYS Job Abilities:

1. Magic Sword: Stance. While active, you are able to parry magic as well as melee attacks and your Defense is increased by 45% and your Magic Defense by 150%. Some abilities gain additional effects. Consumes MP over time and reduces damage by 25%. 20 sec CD
2. Shield I: Usable only after a parry. Provides an absorb shield for 10 seconds, potency 300, off-GCD, 5 sec CD
3. Shield II: Provides an absorb barrier and reduces incoming damage by 20% while active, lasts 10 seconds, potency 500, off-GCD, 90 sec CD
4. Unleash Magic: Attack with potency 600, Ends Magic Sword.
5. Masterstroke: Attack with potency 300, increase parry chance by 100% and parry strength by 20% for 10 seconds; 120 sec CD

Note: MYS gear is DRG/LNC gear and uses LNC as an additional job with Keen Flurry as an additional.

Basically, there are 2 separate combo trees: the Secundo tree, which is the "magic" combo tree, and the Terzo tree, which is the standard melee tree (the mp restore on Glorioso is to replenish the cost accrued by Magic Sword). Some of the combos are intentionally situational: Hamstring is terrible damage for a tertiary combo even with Terzo's bonus damage and the DoT included. You would only use it when you need to apply heavy.

Beyond that, Fencer's theme is pretty heavily +crit oriented (makes sense since it's not using a precision fighting weapon).

RDM adds a *lot* of versatility and support to the class. I liked the idea of being able to parry magic attacks, but thought it made more sense as part of MYS than Fencer or RDM (what with MYS being the "magic tank"). The way this is set up, Fencer is still a fully non-magical class and RDM just ends up auto-casting certain spells with certain attacks. The ability to do a crapton of different things is present in the various Aura abilities. Personally, I like the idea of a single class being able to pull perform whatever limit it might need to perform at a moment's notice, and RDM would be perfect for that, what with its generalist tendencies.

Mystic Knight, on the other hand, isn't as versatile but acts as an avoidance tank. It has lighter armor than the other tanks, but the stance and higher parry make up for that. The difference in mDef is made up by being able to parry magic attacks as well. The various +parry abilities act as mitigation on everything thanks to the "parry magic" aspect of Magic Sword.

With the way I've set it up, the requirements for RDM would likely be something like 30 FNC, 10-15 CNJ, 10-15 THM and MYS would be 30 FNC, 15 ARC.

By the way, the numbers are nowhere near solid. I don't know enough about DPS potency modification numbers or baseline crit rates or anything, so most of those numbers are just there for comparison's sake (i.e. Moullinet does more damage than Glorioso but only when the DoT is allowed to fully resolve).

wow

you sure can type

For everyone saying to give RDM Magic Sword, that is a Mystic Knight's ability traditionally. I think that's the job name you're really wanting. :)

Edit: Also Kitru, instead of expending a trait to do that, they could just program the DEX modifying attack into the Rapier weapon type similar to how they did it with BRD and then change the tooltip to "DEX influences the attack of Rapiers and Bows." They could then expand that to include daggers for rogue/thief as well.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

For everyone saying to give RDM Magic Sword, that is a Mystic Knight's ability traditionally. I think that's the job name you're really wanting. :)

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Eh, some other name could just as easily be applied to it. "Ensorcell Weapon" would be equally appropriate. All that matter is the mechanic behind it.

I could see Mystic Knight branching off of this, with the Job stance applying high enmity modifiers to some attacks (likely x5 for Glorioso and x3 for Terzo) and giving a percentage increase to Def and mDef (to make up for wearing weaker armor; conversely, the job *could* allow them to use DRG/LNC armor intead of generic DoW armor, which would give them better armor that's still technically worse than the beefy tank armor). Add a few tank CDs via the job and you could have a pretty interesting tank with Weaving Strike (make it apply only to yourself but have a higher number or add flat DR/Parry). The only problem I could see would be gearing: as I've said before, the only gear in game with tank stats on it is heavy armor. Unless there were some mechanic to convert DPS stats into tank stats (or provide a tank benefit when scoring a critical hit to turn crit into a tank stat), gearing would be problematic since the only source for parry would be materia.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

snip for text limit

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Yeah, that's why in my vision for FNC> RDM/MST I gave MST the possibility of some chain and gave RDM an ability that reduced STR and DEX by 15% while buffing MND and INT 20%. That way MST can still survive hits and RDM's magic attacks will be worth using. For your vision I could see dropping one of the abilities for a similar conversion of stats.

Edit: Actually honestly your RDM tank really does sound more like a MST to me overall. And with your various attacks and traits, have you considered theorycrafting your FNC to branch into DNC and MST? It'd be quite interesting to see what you could do with that.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Yeah, that's why in my vision for FNC> RDM/MST I gave MST the possibility of some chain and gave RDM an ability that reduced STR and DEX by 15% while buffing MND and INT 20%.

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That really wouldn't work out well. Percentage gains to stats don't work because gear doesn't buff all stats. I don't have a DPS at 50 to compare, but, based off of my WAR, MND and INT are 110 and 78, respectively; STR and VIT are both in excess of 300. Assuming a DEX equal to my VIT, this idea would end up costing ~45 DEX for only ~22 INT (assuming we're talking DPS), which is a pretty severe drop in effectiveness. Hybrid stat allocations just don't work well, which is why it's better to have a single stat that does multiple things rather than multiple stats for multiple things.

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Edit: Actually honestly your RDM tank really does sound more like a MST to me overall. And with your various attacks and traits, have you considered theorycrafting your FNC to branch into DNC and MST? It'd be quite interesting to see what you could do with that.

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Assuming you mean the part where I call it a Mystic Knight rather than the whole write up for RDM I did before that, I agree. I think I'll edit in the MST (MYS?) to the post I just did.

As to DNC (assuming you mean Dancer), I would actually see Dancer as a healer job based off of Thief, rather than Fencer. I envision a dancer wielding dagger(s) because they're smaller rather than a rapier that might get in the way of complex dance moves (lest you stab yourself).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Percentage gains to stats

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Well therein lies the beauty of jobs gaining entirely different stat bonuses to their classes. SMN for instance gets a lot more INT than ACN and SCH gets a lot more MND. In my vision I see RDM getting a larger pool of INT/MND/PIE than the base class of FNC and MST getting a larger pool of DEX/STR/VIT. With RDM generally being the "jack of all trades" I envision them getting relatively equal stats all around.

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Assuming you mean the part

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I was referring to the abilities in the spoilers. Mystic Knight was all about added magic attacks to physical attacks (as well as added enfeebles) so it just screamed it to me.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I was referring to the abilities in the spoilers. Mystic Knight was all about added magic attacks to physical attacks (as well as added enfeebles) so it just screamed it to me.

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I ended up changing RDM from "Ensorcell Weapon" to "Freecasting". It's mechanically the same, except that the MP cost is now on the bonus attributes of the attacks and, instead of stabbing someone with a sword that's on fire, you're throwing a fire spell on someone while you're stabbing them. It fits a bit better with the RDM construct where the RDM casts spells and stabs things whereas the MYS charges up his sword with magic and proceeds to stab things with magic.

I prefer if they ever add RDM (which im gonna jump in straight, loved playing one in FFXI), i hope they keep it as jack of all trades, master of none, just the way i like my classes, currently have to settle for WHM, because no other class interests me.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

One of the first things you'd need to do would be to add a stance (or trait) that allows you to use DEX instead of STR for melee attacks, probably at level 2.

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Why would you need a stance to change DEX to STR? You could just have the class scale with DEX as its main stat. It's not like MNKs and LNCs want yet another class to compete with for gear. Or is this more due to blanket rules like "DEX boosts ranged attacks"?

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Reveal would need to only apply to piercing damage to prevent *massive* value inflation. An improved Reveal trait later on (40-50) *could* have it apply to more than one damage type, but not all.

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I was treating Reveal's debuff to have a similar value as Feint's Slow, Rage of Hallone's STR Down and so on (and unlike Feint, Reveal would do no damage, so you essentially "waste" a GCD applying it to increase raid DPS). The debuff's value would be more determined by the percentage, which is why I left that undefined. When I originally conceived Reveal I wanted it to become a single-use debuff for FNC and RDM and a stacking debuff for Mystic Knight though MTK's soul crystal mechanic (using the stacks more as a threat modifier for MTK rather than to further increase raid DPS while MTK is tanking).

I guess I can allow the change to just piercing damage, but it would become more of a self-DPS buff unless your party/raid is stacking DRGs.

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One variation might be to have Magic Sword act somewhat like Defiance insofar as it adds bonus functionality to existing combo attack.

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An alternative would be Magic Sword reacting to whichever debuff was placed on the mob via the Soul Thrust => Spell combo. If the mob has no Burn/Frost/Shock debuff, Magic Sword cannot be used. If the mob has Burn/Frost/Shock, then Magic Sword deals damage and takes on the elemental property of the debuff. You could even have MSword consume the debuff if you want to add a "skill" component.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Why would you need a stance to change DEX to STR? You could just have the class scale with DEX as its main stat. It's not like MNKs and LNCs want yet another class to compete with for gear. Or is this more due to blanket rules like "DEX boosts ranged attacks"?

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There aren't any classes, at the moment, that use a stat for cross purposes. There are classes/abilities that swap stats however. DEX is specifically listed as modifying ranged attacks so, unless that were changed to apply on a class-by-class basis, there would need to be some mechanic that encourage/forces DEX stacking rather than STR stacking so as to prevent MNK/DRG gear competition.

By the way, I wasn't saying that STR and DEX should be *switched*. I was saying that the stance/trait should, effectively, apply ranged damage modifiers to melee attacks. All of the gear they would want to use would have DEX on it, not STR, since, if I had my way, I'd have STR do nothing except for increase Parry value. There would be no reason for FNC to use MNK/DRG gear because that gear has STR on it, which would be either a sub-standard or outright useless stat to have.

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I was treating Reveal's debuff to have a similar value as Feint's Slow, Rage of Hallone's STR Down and so on (and unlike Feint, Reveal would do no damage, so you essentially "waste" a GCD applying it to increase raid DPS). The debuff's value would be more determined by the percentage, which is why I left that undefined. When I originally conceived Reveal I wanted it to become a single-use debuff for FNC and RDM and a stacking debuff for Mystic Knight though MTK's soul crystal mechanic (using the stacks more as a threat modifier for MTK rather than to further increase raid DPS while MTK is tanking).

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The problem with trying to treat it like Slow or STR Down is that there's a fair deal of difference between reducing incoming damage (with Halone, it's a fundamental aspect of PLD tanking: 10% lower STR makes you take less damage; the Slow does it, as applied by a DPS, but that Slow suffers from DR very quickly and many bosses end up being immune to it; this is one of the big reasons why Haymaker is effectively worthless for WAR) and increasing damage taken from *all* sources. As it stands, the existing +dam mechanisms really only buff your own damage or that of a small number of other classes: WAR increases WAR and PLD, DRG increases BRD and DRG, BRD (with a song that they don't even keep up all the time) increases BLM and tiny bits of a couple other classes. With the exception of the BRD, the +dam mechanisms exist as a self buff with a tangential benefit to someone else: you don't use them so that other people benefit but rather so that *you* benefit. This limits the maximum contribution that a single class can provide to a large number of people by restricting it to only certain classes.

A global -resist debuff would either need to have a really low contribution number or have a limited uptime. As a kind of support CD, it could easily work, but I don't see that as part of FNC but rather RDM. The "support" aspect of a class/job pairing doesn't really appear until you get into the "job".

As to having Reveal, which you list as a functionality of the class rather than the job, do *completely* separate things for each, it pushes design credulity a bit. You want to have an ability be a single stack group-wide damage buff for one job and a stacking, personal enmity buff for the other. It's like *possible* for it to be done as such (SCH changing the summon spells to something completely different is pretty good precedent), but it's a really inelegant solution. It would be better for it just be 2 separate abilities for each job.

Also, using a debuff as an enmity multiplier is a really wonky mechanic. Even if you use it as a resource to be consumed, it still creates a really weird construct where you have a longer time frame before you actually generate reasonable threat (recall: the other tanks have to get to the end of their combo to generate truly effective enmity generation). If it stacked up and wasn't consumed, you'd then be creating a construct where you start off with weak threat (which is when you need it most) and, only after the fight is already 10-20 seconds deep, work up to having useful amounts of it (which is when you need it the least).

There's a really good reason that enmity multipliers are always passives or self-buffs: doing it any other way is simply makes a tank *drastically* less effective.

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An alternative would be Magic Sword reacting to whichever debuff was placed on the mob via the Soul Thrust => Spell combo. If the mob has no Burn/Frost/Shock debuff, Magic Sword cannot be used. If the mob has Burn/Frost/Shock, then Magic Sword deals damage and takes on the elemental property of the debuff. You could even have MSword consume the debuff if you want to add a "skill" component.

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I actually changed my design a *lot* from what you originally posited, mainly because there was enough that I didn't agree with as part of what you wanted me to fill in around, like having a 2 separate "base" combo attacks to create the separate trees, that I didn't feel comfortable working within those confines. I also pushed Magic Weapon, as it applies to RDM, through 2 other names/iterations and gave Magic Sword to MYS. I actually came to agree with Marta that an enchanted weapon makes less sense for RDM than it does for MYS; it makes more sense for a RDM to cast spells as part of stabbing someone than enchanting their weapon with magic (which is pretty much the MYS's entire schtick).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

DEX is specifically listed as modifying ranged attacks so, unless that were changed to apply on a class-by-class basis, there would need to be some mechanic that encourage/forces DEX stacking rather than STR stacking so as to prevent MNK/DRG gear competition.

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I think it'll have to be applied on a class-by-class basis, otherwise you're going to have hideous overlap once Rogue (or whatever Yoshida chooses to name the dagger class he keeps hinting at) enters the game. It is under this idea that I would want FNC to scale with DEX rather than STR.

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A global -resist debuff would either need to have a really low contribution number or have a limited uptime. As a kind of support CD, it could easily work, but I don't see that as part of FNC but rather RDM. The "support" aspect of a class/job pairing doesn't really appear until you get into the "job".

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If asked to give a number, for me it would be something fairly low like 4% damage increase. And you're right, I'm playing to a "support" aspect, though the reason I would make it part of the class rather than the job was to allow overlap between RDM and MTK. I do understand we'd potentially run into a bloodlust/heroism problem if FNC/RDM/MTK is the only source of +4% overall damage to the raid, though.

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As to having Reveal, which you list as a functionality of the class rather than the job, do *completely* separate things for each, it pushes design credulity a bit. You want to have an ability be a single stack group-wide damage buff for one job and a stacking, personal enmity buff for the other. It's like *possible* for it to be done as such, but it's a really inelegant solution. It would be better for it just be 2 separate abilities for each job.

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Here's where I'll make a WoW comparison, because the way I picture Reveal is as the inverse of how Sunder Armor works for all three warrior specs. Ideally the one to apply Sunder Armor should be a prot (tank) warrior, though before they started spreading tank mechanics all over the place you could have a DPS-specced warrior (fury/dual-wield or arms/two-hander) applying the debuff because raid DPS > personal DPS.

So you had prot warriors using their spec-based attack (Devastate) that did damage AND apply Sunder Armor, or you had an arms/fury warrior weaving Sunder Armor into their rotations (or in Cataclysm, simply use Glyph of Colossus Smash) to apply and refresh the debuff. I know this is utility that transcends the class/job set up, but also keep in mind it does play to a "support" aspect some people have been asking for. I also know such utility usually warrants DPS nerfs on a class level, so I'm not too attached to the concept but do see the appeal in it.

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Also, using a debuff as an enmity multiplier is a really wonky mechanic. Even if you use it as a resource to be consumed, it still creates a really weird construct where you have a longer time frame before you actually generate reasonable threat. If it stacked up and wasn't consumed, you'd then be creating a construct where you start off with weak threat (which is when you need it most) and, only after the fight is already 10-20 seconds deep, work up to having useful amounts of it (which is when you need it the least).

There's a really good reason that enmity multipliers are always passives or self-buffs: doing it any other way is simply makes a tank *drastically* less effective.

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I'll admit that my idea for MTK is based on the other idea I had for it, where Reveal would be a secondary threat modifier while Ice Brand (permanent sword enchant, +35~% enmity to all actions) would be the primary thread modifier.

As for the reason behind the stacking, the intent is to give MTK something to weave into their rotation because aside from benefiting the raid it also benefits their threat generation. I could simply keep it at one stack and just add a high enmity value (along the same potency as Flash but single-target) that could be weaved in to maintain threat but would be far from MTK's main threat tool. I also would see it as an alternative to "combo for higher enmity" (WAR's relationship with Maim) without falling back on too many abilities with built-in high enmity (what PLD is basically built on).

this screams Op everywhere i look at... lol, never going to happen, and so much stacking buffs for crit chance, in a tank? lol.... skills in dps league and above, 300 power, 600 potency, stuns, multiple party buffs, all Lb at your disposal? why not give him all cleric heals and be done with it, one class to rule them all lol

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Originally Posted by Warthain

this screams Op everywhere i look at

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Maybe that's because you're completely and utterly clueless.

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so much stacking buffs for crit chance, in a tank?

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You realize that WAR has a constant 10% crit buff and access to a 15% increased crit chance buff with 25% uptime, right? This means that WAR gets, on average, a 13.75% increase to its crit rate. This class only gets marginally more (10% from LOS and 1 guaranteed crit every 30 seconds, which makes it like Life Surge, except it's unreliable so you're just as likely to get it on your big attack as a weaker one, so you get about half of the practical benefit).

The only crit effects that I gave this class were Feint (one crit every 30 seconds) and Luck Over Skill, which is only marginally more effective than Internal Release (30% +crit with 33% uptime compared to 30% +crit with 25% uptime). The entire point is that it's a crit focused DPS as the base class and for a portion of the tank's mitigation to be drawn from scoring critical hits since it's grown out of a crit focused DPS class.

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skills in dps league and above

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It's based off of a DPS class so that's kind of where they're coming from in the first place. On top of that, those numbers weren't calculated. They were just chosen in a kind of "eh, seems about right" kind of way. Complaining about the numbers being too high without having even done any math to put them into perspective (you'll notice that the *only* damage buffs I included were those crit buffs) is simply idiotic.

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, 300 power, 600 potency, stuns, multiple party buffs, all Lb at your disposal?

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Do you not realize that you're talking about 2 different jobs there? Red Mage is DPS with support capability and Mystic Knight is tank. The support capability of the Red Mage is derived from those buffs and the ability to bring whatever LB is needed. It's akin to the BRD resource benefits which are a *massive* boon to a group. Keep in mind, they have to have the the relevant aura up in order to access the other LBs and those have only 1/6 uptimes so you have to choose between retaining the ability to choose your LB on the fly or providing those buffs to your group.

The stuns are just part of tanking and DPSing by default (PLD has no CD on theirs; how are you even bringing that stun capability up now?) and the 600 potency attack is intentionally huge: it turns off your tank stance which has a 20 sec CD. Rather than getting a DPS stance or massive native +damage buffs, the Mystic Knight get a massive attack that it can throw down at the cost of its tanking stance (which also happens to afford it most of the improved performance on its combo attacks). Honestly, if you wanted to look at *any* of the abilities as broken, it should likely be Riposte, which is a 200 potency off-GCD attack that would proc pretty often given the parry buffs I gave Mystic Knight.

He may or may not have trolled you, Kitru.

You know how it works, complete ignorance = trolling.

You may be safer assuming the stats are static, and then work within those rules assuming that any class modifications will come via armor. Rdm would presumably be a str/int or mnd class, depending on if it's more white or black magic focused... or maybe the armor will you give you the choice is stacking int or mnd. Then there's your personal stat distribution.

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Originally Posted by Masenken

You may be safer assuming the stats are static, and then work within those rules assuming that any class modifications will come via armor. Rdm would presumably be a str/int or mnd class, depending on if it's more white or black magic focused... or maybe the armor will you give you the choice is stacking int or mnd. Then there's your personal stat distribution.

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Spreading stats all over the place waters down class potential as well as performance. There's a reason hybrids of a particular role get pushed towards one main stat instead of being split between two or more.

RDM as tank(or magic based tank?) hmm...

I would rather see RDM as a range DD(dps) that anything else

Another tank would upset the balance.

Musketeer/RDM is more like a fencer or range class

I see it more of a dex,piety, int,mind, type.

What we can use more of is stat boost. Haste! Reflect! Refresh!;P

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Maybe that's because you're completely and utterly clueless.

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This one made my day, especialy because it came from you.

Do you think unpacking wall of bs and failogic on a forum is making you look smart? I have never seen so much idotie in my life, and with the wall of text you write there is enough to print a 2013 Quid of stupidity..