Anti-Speed Run Mechanism

Make a set up split as in "Veteran group" (only allow person who clear that dungeon/boss once before to tick it) and "standard group" (anybody can choose this choice, but the newbies are force into this).

Now, those who don't want to keep losing primal hard mode due to 1-2 person that is new to the fight and rest in peace. While those who only want fun and not care speed or effective can always go for choice 2, usually new people won't want to speed run first time dungeon anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feilina

Begin to enjoy playing and stop to work. Is it really your intention to break the intended way just to get loot? Loot seems to be the only thing you enjoy, you don't even realise that there are 2nd exp gains...

---

A long time ago i have learned to stop arguing with people like you. Have a nice day.

We simply have two oppinions. And i did not want to be mean, sorry. In fact I'm german and possibly sound more rude than intended. Again, sorry.

It seems to me that you are chasing rewards and loose track to enjoy yourself. I intentionally reduced your answer to the loot, because it is what I understood. You didn't answer my questions, so i had to draw my conclusion.

My apologies. Have a nice day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feilina

I do! I really like that. I like to appreciate the work done in those dungeons. I like to PLAY their intended way. In fact I couldn't care less about the tokens or loot a boss drops if the whole was made pretty well.

Let me ask you. What is your intention to do a dungeon? Loot, Challenge, the next Dungeon, being the first?
Would you run dungeons with only one Boss?

---

I cleared all dungeons first time I went to them, but since I already enjoyed the dungeons I'd rather do "speed runs" now since it's cheaper on the repair bills.
I'm all for going through 100% of the content at least once, but when repeating it, I doubt there are many that would enjoy clearing trash the 5th time.

All in all, unless SE give trash clearing some value or lesser repair bills, I will not do it more than once.

Well, explain this: Repairs to tank are beyond 2k gil in this crap speedrun and 600 gil from standard one. Pretty good reason to avoid speedruns and make ppl leave since tanks got insta que.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amas

snip...

---

Incentives do work better. Considering Amdapor Keep is being run in an exploitative method, I think we've gotten spoiled with it.

The last thing I can think of for now is having a line (usually the safety line) that you can't cross if anyone in the party has enmity. So any current "safe zone" should have the line on it. This will probably just lead to finding other safe spots to respawn at, but may enforce killing the monsters instead of running by them without punishing the players (unless taking away an exploit is considered punishment, but as said, that deserves no compensation for. Those of us using it are being compensated now).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feilina

We simply have two oppinions. And i did not want to be mean, sorry. In fact I'm german and possibly sound more rude than intended. Again, sorry.

It seems to me that you are chasing rewards and loose track to enjoy yourself. I intentionally reduced your answer to the loot, because it is what I understood. You didn't answer my questions, so i had to draw my conclusion.

My apologies. Have a nice day.

---

Apology more than accepted ;-)

Nowhere in my post did i claim, that I totally agree with the shown sentiment, i merely pointed out that i can understand where these people are coming from, because everyone in this games gets his/her enjoyment from different things. You can be out for social interaction, immersing story, beautiful scenery, exploration, challenging content, sense of reward through loot, crafting, gathering and a possible million other things and combinations of these. Claiming one of them is the right and intended way to play a game and belittling all other sources of personal enjoyment because they do not match your own feels wrong to me.

Personally i prefer calm runs in nice company and don't really care if i skip trash or kill it as long as the party as a whole has fun and enjoys the time spent together. But i can totally see the reason why people who enjoy the more direct reward based kind of gameplay skip the trash. The problem arises when contrary playstyles get thrown into the same group, but instead of invalidating the one or the other way, i would really like to see solutions that accomodate for these differences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warpune

Well, explain this: Repairs to tank are beyond 2k gil in this crap speedrun and 600 gil from standard one. Pretty good reason to avoid speedruns and make ppl leave since tanks got insta que.

---

Sorry I only run with friends, sometimes we grab a random from DF but it works out anyways.
We get consistently lower repair bills if we do sacrifice runs. Even the tank.

not skipping means more exp and drops..... um thats called rewards .... pls keep wow mentality off our forums and out of this game .... sorry but legacy people hate wow for ruining mmo culture

At level 50, you don't get exp for killing. At that point, it's worth it to skip to save time to do another instance. Until SE add tomes drop from trash mobs or give bonus tomes for killing trash or implement anti speed run mechanisms, speed run will be popular and used. Now in regards to WOW, I have no issues with the game itself. But I do have issues with it ruining FFXI Online. It was watered down to make it more easy and I didn't like it. I want it to be a hard game, a game where every level is an achievement (not like WOW, where I can level a char to 85 in 6 days).

You still can't force ppl to do it if they don't want to, simple.

Unless SE stops destroying my armor/weapon durability from just normal killing, I refuse to stop speedruns.

Speedruns:
- fast clear time
- little loss of durability (aka money spent on repairs)

Normal runs:
- takes forever
- more money spent on repairs

What's the use of normal runs when it doesn't bring anything to the table? Even if they force us to do full clear, it's still only punishing us. There is no incentive to do full runs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feilina

Seriously: It is an EXPLOIT!

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Incentives do work better. Considering Amdapor Keep is being run in an exploitative method, I think we've gotten spoiled with it.

---

A bit of arguing semantics, but it's not an exploit until SE confirms it as such.

Right now, it's best described as "unanticipated player behavior" (or even anticipated player behavior, we don't know, heh). We, as the player base, decided to take a different path for the content than the one obviously presented to us.

This was done because it was in our best interests as players to do so. Some players find the experience rewarding in and of itself indefinitely (e.g. Feilina). Most people, however, find the experience fun a few times and then the repetition becomes boredom unless there's some other motivator. The drops and the tomestones become that motivator, because those hold value to more players for longer.

Players will always do what's in our best interest. If the current method of speed running is eliminated, we'll find others, or look for content that's a better cost:reward ratio. AK simply isn't worth running if you have to kill the trash, unless it changes to more than offset repair costs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LilSmalls

SE please introduce a mechanism to stop people trying to speed run dungeons when using the duty finder.

Too many newbie’s are being treated badly because people want to circumvent game play for an easy win.

---

Trash Mobs are just that. Trash. The most Fun part of a Dungeon are the bosses. If you skip trash and go straight to bosses, I don't see the problem.

Actually the problem is bad attitude players, that mistreat others. And they will do so if its a speed run or not. Taking away speedruns wont make jerks disappear.

Also the idea of a speed run is not an "Easy Win", is just to save time. If you never done Demon Wall, doing a speed run gives you enough time for more tries and learn the fight (i never expect a new player to beat demon wall on the first try). so its not actually easier as the bosses you still have to defeat them and those are the harder fights of the dungeon, its just "faster".

MMO Players will most of the time select the most efficient path for leveling or progressing towards any goal. Don't blame the players for clever use of game mechanics. If SE didn't want this to happen, they could and should change it.

Semantics... ;)

Do you think the dungeon would be run "probably original intended" ;) if the old and well known repair system was in place?

So the problem is trash mobs or that people are getting irate and unruly about a person wanting to watch the CS for the first time as they are you know doing it for the first time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C000kiemonster

not skipping means more exp and drops..... um thats called rewards .... pls keep wow mentality off our forums and out of this game .... sorry but legacy people hate wow for ruining mmo culture

---

Err AK thats a level 50 dungeon, exp??? you are already capped >.>

Drops are nice but you get better gear by farming tomes and buying it from Rowena.

Soul Binding is really no option?

Rowena... that chick survived? *walks through Ul'dah with his frying pan":cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warpune

Well, explain this: Repairs to tank are beyond 2k gil in this crap speedrun and 600 gil from standard one. Pretty good reason to avoid speedruns and make ppl leave since tanks got insta que.

---

Def not the case. If you go through the dungeon and don't die besides sac the repairs are much cheaper than clearing fully. Trash is just useless. Give me vendor trash and chance at items and I'll kill them. But costing me more money, being slower and giving me nothing annoys me. I did it once fully to experience it and now I'm doing it to progress my character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bwalker36

Def not the case. If you go through the dungeon and don't die besides sac the repairs are much cheaper than clearing fully. Trash is just useless. Give me vendor trash and chance at items and I'll kill them. But costing me more money, being slower and giving me nothing annoys me. I did it once fully to experience it and now I'm doing it to progress my character.

---

Yeah but you see here is the thing while that is perfectly alright you are now going to force people to do it your way now or fully experience it again with new people

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sakasa

Yeah but you see here is the thing while that is perfectly alright you are now going to force people to do it your way now or fully experience it again with new people

---

Me no. I will try to find full parties. If I cannot I simple ask the group what they want to do. If they have all been there and want to we speed run. If two payers are new, I'm not speed running to die on bosses well go through it slowly and learn them some AK.

But a lot of people do tend to be that way or will quit if they don't get the speedrun. I prefer the speedrun but will not rage quit especially after waiting 15 mintues for the server queue anyway.

I wouldn't mind speedruns, but... from recent experience, doing a dungeon for the first time having not spedrun in 2.0 before, whilst not having it explained to me nor being told it's a speedrun, then being raged at and insulted in my face for not being able to read minds...

I've never quit a party before. But I couldn't stay there with those jerks as they treat me like a piece of crap. I hope I ruined their speedrun by quitting, because it's more than they deserve. Speedrun needs to have a seperate tick box.

A new player is going to be treated badly by veteran players in a group finder regardless of what sort of run is happening. But my biggest issues with new players in dungeons are A. They aren't up front about it and B. They don't listen. If someone takes the time to lay out a strategy for you. Just listen ask questions by all means but don't stand there and argue for 15 minutes.

Also before you call for nerfs to speed runs let me lay a little math on you. In order to achieve a full set of darklight gear not counting accessories, you need about 3650 tomes. So 45 runs of AK or 36 of Castrum/Praetorium. The average speed run takes 20 minutes. So even going as fast you can you will have to run AK for around 14 hours to complete yout darklight set. You will then have to continue to run it around 8 times a week to cap myth tomes. With full party dungeon queues capping out around 20 minutes do you really want systems put in place that would triple the amount of time runs take?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veurr

</charlimit>

---

With me, it wasn't even a case of my own error. Literally, I got asked if I was new, I said yes, party ran off without saying anything, didn't tell me one bit of strategy, and raged at me for getting it wrong. Oh you wanted me to die there to lose aggro? Then tell me? Rather than shout at me for staying alive? Oh, now you're angry I returned whilst half the party is dead? Could have told me that it was part of the strategy to pull mobs, die to lose agro then res. I had no clue at all what was going on by that point. And then the party lost to the boss and I was shouted at for not returning straight away, despite being told off the last time. To me, that was contradictory commands, all told in hindsight, and I got completely slated and spoken about between party members right in front of me just because I couldn't read their minds. This is not the mentality I want to ever face again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riku_Toiiku

This is not the mentality I want to ever face again.

---

This is a player mentality problem not a speed run problem. I do speed runs constantly in AK and don't run into this kind of thing. Taking away speed runs is not going to fix the issue you faced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

This is a player mentality problem not a speed run problem. I do speed runs constantly in AK and don't run into this kind of thing. Taking away speed runs is not going to fix the issue you faced.

---

I personally never sugested any such thing.

Just a seperate tick box or something for speed runs to put like-minded individuals together.

Speed runners get their speed runs, new players get more patient (hopefully) parties. Everyone's happy.

Someone's already mentioned the solution before, and the solution is to make trash worthwhile.. We don't need more discussion. Once they do that, sure, stop speedrunning. But for now, if you do this, amdapor will be EVEN MORE CROWDED as runs take longer, and become a massive 2 hour long grind train and monsters still give absolutely nothing.

If you made every mob in amdapor drop 1 tomestone, bam. Instantly, I will clear the entire zone. Maybe 10% chance of a myth tomestone too.

And for those who want to stop this "exploit", you're only hurting yourself. Your queues will be longer, people won't run as much, and the people that you want to punish already have full darklight, and full 60 greens for all their toons, while you struggle to find the almost 15 (yes 15 hours, if we say 1.5-2 hours for a full run of amdapor) to cap out on myths every week.

A few further issues raised now:
1. Player behaviour.
2. Trash Mobs vs "Normal Play"

Firstly, Player Behaviour. I've had great random parties, lastnight was my first experience with horror, trying to complete Castrum first time. I'd watched a vid of the run, told the party it was my first run. There was no communication, no marking targets and no strategy talked about. We beat it after a few deaths but it was hands down the worst experience to date. I'm actively looking for a FC on Sargatanas now so I can go with a few familiar faces.

Trash Mobs vs "Normal Play" - I think this highlights the core reasons people want to play games. For some unless there is a measurable reward then it is not fun, for others (i'm in this camp) the process of playing is the fun.

I ran a 2nd dungeon after Castrum. For all 4 of us it was our first, all communicated and it was an absolute blast! Only wiped once when figuring out what the big Tonberry was doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Someone's already mentioned the solution before, and the solution is to make trash worthwhile.. We don't need more discussion. Once they do that, sure, stop speedrunning. But for now, if you do this, amdapor will be EVEN MORE CROWDED as runs take longer, and become a massive 2 hour long grind train and monsters still give absolutely nothing.

If you made every mob in amdapor drop 1 tomestone, bam. Instantly, I will clear the entire zone. Maybe 10% chance of a myth tomestone too.

---

I cannot upvote this enough. I haven't quite gotten to that specific point in the game yet, but I do dread it. The worst part is that such a simple fix as this one listed above would be enough to make most parties happy.

I'm not a fan of speed runs but I understand why people do it. In this new age of game if there isn't an incentive to do something people won't do it. People are to worried about gear to worry about actually killing mobs to spiritbind it.

If players want speed run let 'em run . To fix this & get everyone happy SE should add 2 options on duty finder (as someone mentioned before) New players / Veteran . Where if entered as new player option , you wont be allowed to engage boss until killed all Trash mobs . Also this can fix this -> OMG new player , good luck i wait another group . lol

Sounds like you just ran into a particularly anti-social group OP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Someone's already mentioned the solution before, and the solution is to make trash worthwhile.. We don't need more discussion. Once they do that, sure, stop speedrunning.

---

This right here sums it up. Once they do that and combine it with http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...471#post318471 (repairs patch), the community can mesh a little better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

And for those who want to stop this "exploit", you're only hurting yourself. Your queues will be longer, people won't run as much, and the people that you want to punish already have ...

---

I don't think you'll be correct about the dungeon running scheme of the casual players, but time will tell. By the time we get there (and ps4 players join us), they will probably (read: hopefully) have implemented something to account for the influx.

I'm hating the speed runs, I've hated them in GW2, hated them in WoW, hate them!
Just que'd up for The Wanderer's Palace and they wanted to do a speed run. I didn't pop any heals on anyone while running through, I waited for the tank to run through first so they can get the agro. I still got agro and I died, and they got pissed off. At least throw out some Flashes, tanks! Got fed up and just left. I'm tired of the high level dungeons and the players. My guild isn't recruiting much either so there is barely anyone on.

If you want to run speed runs, fine, do it with your friends or guildmates.

1 totem per trash mob, lower boss totem reward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delorean

I bet there would be a lot less skipping trash if the dungeons weren't so long or offered rewards for not skipping it.

but yeah when people don't like the way you have things set up they tend to try to work around it or did you think anyone actually wanted to spend 30hrs of their life running 1 dungeon over and over again?

we dont even have variety lol

---

*
This.

This game has way, WAY too many trash mobs on dungeons. And when you have to run the same dungeon over and over again... you want to get it over with as fast as you can.
If there weren't so damn many trashes, I'd be against skipping too. But as things are, skipping is our only viable option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amas

Bingo.

The moment it becomes a worthwhile endeavor to kill trash, people will start doing it.

The best anti-speed run mechanism is to simply give the trash value.

Until that happens, whiners gonna whine and speed runners gonna get more loot.

---

No change needed to implement this. All S-E needs to do is fabricate a story and tell the community that a 100 mythology tomestome drop has been added to a random mob's drop list within the dungeon, and everyone and their mom will be killing everything.

Just to chime in here, did you guys ever think that maybe some people don't have time to do full runs all the time? Some of us work a lot and/or go to school as well and having to do a 2 hour dungeon over and over again to cap out myths every week would be too much for them due to their schedules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkine

1 totem per trash mob, lower boss totem reward.

---

Genius idea, or just make them cumulative to the overall reward to the dungeon.
or maybe make some mobs drop random chests, like Fields of valor. filled with tomestones, allaghan pieces, etc etc