Change the Dyeing Synthesis Recipes

Hmm, actually I don't mind inventory problem, because I think color variety in this game is too little. (1 armor has 3 color, 1 set has 4-5 color only, while other game usually have 10 color per gear).

But adjust the recipe method might be good too. Imaging if you can just have 3 dye color and mix-match them to make any color cloth yourself for each tier. 3x3x3 = 27 variety. red red red = red. red yellow red = orange.

I agree with Cairdeas about the dying process like on WAR. You should be able to dye your armor after it is made and also I actually think if you fail the synth you should get some kind of messed up color (losing the armor is kind of dumb if you just mess up on dying it)

I personally agree with not forcing colored materials for basic recipes, and basic recipes added for pieces that normally don't have one. I don't agree with elminating dyes, as I am about to stock up on dyed cloth myself. I also don't see anything wrong with making a colored armor piece from an uncolored version, but the recipe should require success like normal or loss of materials like normal. Something like: The colored piece normally have black dodo leather, and green hempen cloth for example. The recipe would be: Original armor piece, black dodo leather dye, green hempen dye for example. (Yes, I know there is no green hemp and also black dodo leather dye isn't exactly called that, it's just an example.) But not vice versa, or making already colored armor into another color, I don't agree with.

Edit: I also don't agree with removing any currently in-place recipes, except to maybe change them to include the non-colored ingredients. Maybe, change the names of certain recipes to (White) and make another recipe using all uncolored ingredients. Idk, just an idea.

I like the current system. If they change it i dont want to see dyes removed, and i immediately disregard any suggestion that starts with, "i think this game should be more like..(insertgamehere)". Dont go into a fit of rage. this is just my opinion, not everyone thinks rentahamster is a genius.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

I like the current system. If they change it i dont want to see dyes removed, and i immediately disregard any suggestion that starts with, "i think this game should be more like..(insertgamehere)". Dont go into a fit of rage. this is just my opinion, not everyone thinks rentahamster is a genius.

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Definitely. Sure changes need to be made, but Final Fantasy is losing their glory days of being first thinkers on Video Game RPGs only because people whine for something they can get from other games (Final Fantasy was the first RPG of its genre).

I would like to dye my armor even after buying it. I want to dye it any color whenever I want lol.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I would like to dye my armor even after buying it. I want to dye it any color whenever I want lol.

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The changes I proposed would let you dye your stuff anytime, provided you have acquired the correct dye.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I would like to dye my armor even after buying it. I want to dye it any color whenever I want lol.

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Being able to do that will take alot from the classes that craft such things. Being able to do anything at any time will mean no challenge for anyone. Just get on, mash buttons until everything's capped, get off. End of day 1.

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Originally Posted by KorPoni

Being able to do that will take alot from the classes that craft such things. Being able to do anything at any time will mean no challenge for anyone. Just get on, mash buttons until everything's capped, get off. End of day 1.

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Nope.

You still need to gather dye mats.

Alchemists still need to synth dye.

Some dyes will still be rarer than others.

All crafters have more space in their inventory.

I've been considering this situation a bit more, and have come to the conclusion that my concern is the following:

I dislike removing something from crafting (that removes DEPTH, making it a shallower play experience), without something additional being added that could create more depth.

I will admit the current dyeing system DOES NOT add this hoped for depth. The dyed item recipes seeming purpose is to be restrictive rather than creative. Further, the need to stock large varieties of dyes, dyed cloth, dyed leather, dyed clothing parts, etc is a terrible burden on the inventories.

However, the POSSIBILITIES of the dyeing system seem fantastic. And it's the loss of the possibility of what the current system could become that I mourn, not the current system itself. The sheer craziness of making a velveteen shirt with different front/back/sleeve colors makes me weep (and yes, a lot of people could end up look like clowns).

In addition to the possibilities I've already mentioned (redyeing to the current basic colors, and custom dyeing performed by crafters), I can foresee other possibilities. Perhaps, in the end, the burden of all of the extra custom-colored clothing would be to great of a burden to the item system (although I have my doubts, seeing all the NPCs standing around in their fancy gear).

If the materia system is added, and adds a great deal of depth to the crafting system, both with adding slots / slot-links to gear, plus the making and/or slotting of materia itself, this could easily add enough depth to compensate for the removal of the "dyeing at craft-time" system we have currently.

Other proposals for dyeing:
All gear is created white/uncolored. After being bought, the item can be dyed (via NPC or crafter, however), using crafting dyes / enamels / lacquers, BUT ONLY ONCE. Once the item is dyed, it cannot be redyed. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

However, the POSSIBILITIES of the dyeing system seem fantastic. And it's the loss of the possibility of what the current system could become that I mourn, not the current system itself. The sheer craziness of making a velveteen shirt with different front/back/sleeve colors makes me weep (and yes, a lot of people could end up look like clowns).

In addition to the possibilities I've already mentioned (redyeing to the current basic colors, and custom dyeing performed by crafters), I can foresee other possibilities. Perhaps, in the end, the burden of all of the extra custom-colored clothing would be to great of a burden to the item system (although I have my doubts, seeing all the NPCs standing around in their fancy gear).

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This level of customization can still be achieved under the new system I proposed along with Jinko's dye NPC graphic interface.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

This level of customization can still be achieved under the new system I proposed along with Jinko's dye NPC graphic interface.

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Oh, well, I was being perhaps a bit selfish in that I was looking for that level of customization through the CRAFTING system, and not open to anyone in general.

I admit that it is selfish, but my thinking is that something needs to be added to make crafting a creative endeavor. If all of the dyeing is moved to AFTER the crafting process, then it seems to make crafting even more of a sweatshop activity, relegated only to people that are botting.

Le sigh.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

If all of the dyeing is moved to AFTER the crafting process, then it seems to make crafting even more of a sweatshop activity, relegated only to people that are botting.

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I don't really see how it is that much more prone to botting that it already is now.
Besides, the fact that things are bottable is due more to the simplistic crafting "mini-game" than anything else. It's not very hard to program a bot to press "enter enter enter enter enter"

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I don't really see how it is that much more prone to botting that it already is now.
Besides, the fact that things are bottable is due more to the simplistic crafting "mini-game" than anything else. It's not very hard to program a bot to press "enter enter enter enter enter"

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Yeah, I know. The ranking up process for crafting is fairly atrocious, practically screaming "BOT ME!".

At least with custom dyeing during crafting, when not grinding up crafting skills there would some creativity and entertainment (in my eyes) in the crafting process. Removing the dyeing from the crafting makes the whole thing even more colorless and beige (and yes, that was a terrible and deliberate pun :p).

It sounds as though the devs have something in mind, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. If any sort of creativity (ala dyeing, custom gear, SOMETHING) is removed, and the materia system turns out weak, I'll probably just end up wandering off ... ~_~

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It's not very hard to program a bot to press "enter enter enter enter enter"

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Understand that we brought that on ourselves. Before all the changes, crafting required a significant amount of menu interaction. But players demanded that the Development Team "streamline" the crafting process. So now you can set it up so that you just put a brick on the Enter Key, and you just keep on making the last item you crafted.

Certainly more convenient. Certainly more prone automated abuse. Same debate that's going on with AH vs. MW. But that's off topic.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Nope.

You still need to gather dye mats.

Alchemists still need to synth dye.

Some dyes will still be rarer than others.

All crafters have more space in their inventory.

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You're missing the fact the clothcrafter/leatherworker makes gear from dyed cloth, or even makes dyed cloth from dyes. That's what's being taken away from.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Understand that we brought that on ourselves. Before all the changes, crafting required a significant amount of menu interaction.

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No it didn't. Back at retail launch crafting was "rapid rapid rapid rapid".

Now, it's "standard standard standard standard"

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Originally Posted by KorPoni

You're missing the fact the clothcrafter/leatherworker makes gear from dyed cloth, or even makes dyed cloth from dyes. That's what's being taken away from.

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I see your point. It would be akin to allowing any crafting class to make food or potions.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

No it didn't. Back at retail launch crafting was "rapid rapid rapid rapid".

Now, it's "standard standard standard standard"

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I don't mean the actual execution of commands. That has not changed since Beta. I am referring to choosing recipes, choose materials, and all the windows a player had to navigate. Now that process has been "streamlined", you only have to hit the Enter key to choose your last recipe, fill in all the materials, and begin the process.

Before, you had to think and look and choose.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I don't mean the actual execution of commands. That has not changed since Beta. I am referring to choosing recipes, choose materials, and all the windows a player had to navigate. Now that process has been "streamlined", you only have to hit the Enter key to choose your last recipe, fill in all the materials, and begin the process.

Before, you had to think and look and choose.

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That was a good thing. Most people were just trying to do a "repeat last synthesis" anyway. Why make them navigate the whole system again and again if they just want to do the same thing? That's bad design.

Besides, the menu navigation didn't stop bots at all. They can be easily programmed to navigate menus. All it did was piss off legit players and make crafting take more time that it needed to.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That was a good thing. Most people were just trying to do a "repeat last synthesis" anyway. Why make them navigate the whole system again and again if they just want to do the same thing? That's bad design.

Besides, the menu navigation didn't stop bots at all. They can be easily programmed to navigate menus. All it did was piss off legit players and make crafting take more time that it needed to.

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My point is that I don't even need to program a bot any more. I just have to craft a Brass Ring once, then put a weight on the Enter Key.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

My point is that I don't even need to program a bot any more. I just have to craft a Brass Ring once, then put a weight on the Enter Key.

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That's just for local leves. Non-leve synthesis still requires more menu navigation than that.

Still, the problem that we face in regards to botting lies in the fundamental mechanics of the synthesis "mini-game" itself, not in the menu navigation.

The main goal in any menu-driven interface is to enable the user to do what he wants to do with the least amount of clicks and menu layers as possible.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Still, the problem that we face in regards to botting lies in the fundamental mechanics of the synthesis "mini-game" itself, not in the menu navigation.

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So what specific modifications would you ask SE to make to both make synthesis require the least amount of clicks ... and at the same time hinder the botting of synthesis? No sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

So what specific modifications would you ask SE to make to both make synthesis require the least amount of clicks ... and at the same time hinder the botting of synthesis? No sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question.

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I'm not saying the synthesis itself needs the least amount of clicks. I'm saying the menu navigation needs the least amount of clicks. You would agree that all things being equal, only having to navigate through 3 menus before pressing "start synthesis" is better than having to navigate through 5 menus before pressing "start synthesis", right?



Onto your second point:

It doesn't matter how many clicks the actual synthesis itself takes, as long as the process is fun and hard to automate.


As for specific modifications, well just think for a second. You just need some kind of mini-game that can't be automated through a simple macro. You can't have a mini game that can be completed by just inputting the same button over and over again.

Think of all the mini-games you've ever played in you life - minigames that were part of other games, quick little flash games, Facebook games, whatever.

Now eliminate the ones that could have an automated bot win 90% of the time for you.

Now eliminate the ones that aren't fun.

What you have left should be a decent approximation of promising directions to go in.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Think of all the mini-games you've ever played in you life - minigames that were part of other games, quick little flash games, Facebook games, whatever.

Now eliminate the ones that could have an automated bot win 90% of the time for you.

Now eliminate the ones that aren't fun.

What you have left should be a decent approximation of promising directions to go in.

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I appreciate your response. So please excuse me if I sound rude in pressing the matter. But I don't play Flash games. I've never played a Facebook game. I do not share the same frame of reference as you do. It is entirely possible that no one on the Development Team has either. We are talking about men from another country that wear lipstick and guy-liner (no offense Yoshida-san). They may spend their free time very differently than we do.

So I would politely ask that you be even more specific in your examples. Not only for my benefit, but to help the Development Team understand exactly what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I appreciate your response. So please excuse me if I sound rude in pressing the matter. But I don't play Flash games. I've never played a Facebook game. I do not share the same frame of reference as you do. It is entirely possible that no one on the Development Team has either. We are talking about men from another country that wear lipstick and guy-liner (no offense Yoshida-san). They may spend their free time very differently than we do.

So I would politely ask that you be even more specific in your examples. Not only for my benefit, but to help the Development Team understand exactly what you are talking about.

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I find it hard to believe that a person who is devoted enough to post on a FF14 message board, of all things, has such little experience in gaming.

It would also be a huge stretch of the imagination to think that the dev team is that devoid of experience as well. That's their job - to develop games.


Anyway, the point of my thought experiment was this:

For example, take a simple game like Tetris (I am not advocating that they change the synthesis process into Tetris, this is just an example).


#1 - Can you program a third party program to play a Tetris game that is running on an entirely different computer and have it win 90% of the time?

#2 - Probably not. It would be hard to do and not worth the effort. At the very least, it would raise the bar of access.

#3 - Why not? Use the answers to this question to formulate a common list of fundamental characteristics that "unbottable" games would have.


#4 - Is Tetris fun?

#5 - Yes.

#6 - Why is it fun? Use the answers to this question to formulate a common list of fundamental characteristics that "fun" games would have.


#7 Use the answers from #3 and #6 and apply them to create a new synthesis mechanic.



EDIT: This is how hard it is - http://luckytoilet.wordpress.com/201...tic-algorithm/

And that is with the benefit of the AI being able to be run within the game itself, which is a much easier environment than what a bot has to deal with.

So if they made crafting more of a separate sub-game, like the current Parley System, or like Puzzle Quest, where the player have to analyze the placement of pieces on a board, and determine what would be the best move to make ... would that be more fun? It certainly would be very hard to bot, I admit.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

So if they made crafting more of a separate sub-game, like the current Parley System, or like Puzzle Quest, where the player have to analyze the placement of pieces on a board, and determine what would be the best move to make ... would that be more fun? It certainly would be very hard to bot, I admit.

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Honestly an easy fix to "Reapeat last synthesis?" [yes] [no] to being a weight on your enter key is to force the default response to be [no], but making it a huge puzzle will make too much involvement altogether. Botting will continue, only thing SE can do is remove bots as they catch them.

However, I believe the subject is about the changes to color dyes in relation to crafting, not crafting UI.

I've been asked to post this from another topic. Taken from here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...692#post203692

So we've heard that recipe formats will be changed later. Take note also from the link that SE would need to allow quite some number of gear pieces to be allowed this. A question for SE would be could they possibly consider adding bosses that would drop unique dye coloring to be used to color a gear piece?

So we can have our blurple haubys or something. :p

All good steps towards a more sensible and gameplay-oriented crafting system.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/276

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Simplified Color Customization

Currently, players can customize the color of their item only by using colored intermediary materials. This process is rendered extremely complicated due to the fact that intermediary materials come in various hues, along with the existence of dedicated dyes for different types of material (lumber, cloth, metal, and leather).

The new recipes will allow players to color-customize items in a single step by using dyes. Furthermore, universal dyes will be introduced that can be used across all material types.

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"Good news everybody !"

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Originally Posted by Jinko

"Good news everyone!"

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fixed it

/10chars

i see some people post things about puzzles and what not. Id like to see craft quest with big sp gains. Its reasonable to think that a quest sending you to several different locations and taking an hour of you time could reward 10k sp. The sp would be obtained by the skills you learned from the npcs along your quest.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

"Good news everybody !"

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Sweet, now everyone can wear my custom made rare colored items. :D
Makes my crafting classes feel even more a class and less like a job. ^^

New update with additional changes to the dying synthesis:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...to-Gear-Dyeing

[dev1207] Changes to Gear Dyeing

* The following changes are planned for patch 1.20.
* All features are under development and subject to change.

• Gear dyeing will change in patch 1.20.

  Dyeing an item with the new recipes implemented in patch 1.19 would not only change its color; the item’s attributes and equipping requirements would also be affected. This essentially rendered players unable to dye gear to their liking. Patch 1.20 will enable players to dye gear without changing its attributes. New recipes will also be implemented that will allow you to voluntarily add attributes to items independent of color.
  * The above change is inspired by player suggestions.
  
  The following revisions will be applied based on changes in gear attributes as a result of dyeing:

  • Items with a single variant: item attributes and equipping requirements will be unified.
  • Items with multiple variants: items with different attributes will be renamed, and new color variations added.
    * Exceptions exist.

  • Items with a Single Variant
    
    Example:
    ＜Patch 1.19＞Cotton Acton
    Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
    HP: +32Dyeing
    →Cotton Acton (Brown)
    Requires: Discipline of War
    HP: +32 MP: +32* Color, equipping requirements, and attributes have changed as a result of dyeing.
    
    ＜Patch 1.20＞Cotton Acton
    Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
    HP: +32Dyeing
    →Cotton Acton (Brown)
    Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
    HP: +32* Only color has changed as a result of dyeing.
  • Items with Multiple Variants
    
    Example:
    ＜Patch 1.19＞Felt Robe
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54 Magic Evasion: +8Dyeing
    →Felt Robe (Red)
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54　Magic Evasion: +8
    Mind: +6Felt Robe (Green)
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54 Magic Evasion: +8
    Attack Magic Potency:+8* Attributes differ according to color.
    
    ＜Patch 1.20＞
  • Dyeing Only
    Felt Robe
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54 Magic Evasion: +8
    Dyeing
    →Felt Robe (Red)
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54　Magic Evasion: +8
    * Although the name is the same as the Felt Robe, the actual item itself is different.Felt Robe (Green)
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54 Magic Evasion: +8* Only color has changed as a result of dyeing.
  • Adding Color/Attributes with New Recipes
    Felt Robe
    Suits: All Classes
    MP: +54
    Magic Evasion: +8Synthesis
    →Felt Robe (increases Attack Magic Potency)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Magic Evasion: +8
    Attack Magic Potency:+8
    Dyeing
    →Felt Robe (increases Attack Magic Potency) (Red)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Attack Magic Potency:+8
    Magic Evasion: +8Felt Robe (increases Attack Magic Potency) (Green)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Attack Magic Potency: +8
    Magic Evasion: +8Felt Robe (increases Mind)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Magic Evasion: +8
    Mind: +6Dyeing
    →Felt Robe (increases Mind) (Red)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Mind: +6
    Magic Evasion: +8Felt Robe (increases Mind) (Green)
    Requires: Discipline of Magic
    MP: +54
    Mind: +6
    Magic Evasion: +8* The above equipment names are tentative.
• A Word of Caution

  Due to the game's data structure, it is not possible at present to dye an item more than once. After Version 2.0, however, players will be able to dye an item multiple times.

Id love to see the recipes convey a better naming convention than :

Felt Robe (increases Attack Magic Potency)


Could instead use terms like the materia have, like:

Felt Robe of The Wise Man

or, even more literal:

Felt Robe of the Healer

Yeah, the naming seems a bit clumsy. I wonder why the devs want additional ways to customize gear via different recipes when we already have a form of gear customization in materia. Seems to be more complicated than it's worth.

Guys they stated in big red font that the "equipment names are tentative". Pretty sure they're going to go with something less clunky and more creative than "Item Name (Attribute Change)." They probably just haven't settled on the names for the new equipment yet.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Id love to see the recipes convey a better naming convention than :

Felt Robe (increases Attack Magic Potency)


Could instead use terms like the materia have, like:

Felt Robe of The Wise Man

or, even more literal:

Felt Robe of the Healer

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I agree completely with this. I will be more natural to associate them with Materia's name of similar atributes.

Database/server limitations here.
They have every color variant implemented as a separate item and given a different texture. What they should have done is to use a base (white?) texture and apply shaders instead - This we will probably see in 2.0 so there is no point complaining about coloring now.