Dragoon Thread, help discussions and more.

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Originally Posted by Karr285

Am I the only one who thinks our Jump abilities should also give us 100% evasion for the duration of the ability?

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Yes they should. Unfortunately, I have A LOT of issues with the Dragoon. Another issue being Heavy Thrust buff being absolutely pointless. Another issue being the Dragoons Damage is actually, really mediocre despite the reduction in cooldowns times with the Jumps.

I'll eventually get a Thread going about all of the bs parts of a Dragoon and what needs to be fixed for it to stand out, because at the moment, I'd rather just roll as a BRD or a MNK

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Originally Posted by Cu-Chulainn

This thread has some great information, but now for my question. Has anyone had any trouble with the level 20 Lancer quest? I have tried it twice and Mr. Angry Elf keeps dying, any tips?

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Kill the adds first.

A lot of people are actually trying to say Dragoons are overpowered, but I think it's just because the other classes that can pool from our abilities (MNK, BRD) are still working on getting that to 50 and have not had time to level our class up to 34 to steal Blood for Blood =p.

Also what is wrong with Heavy Thrust, I haven't noticed anything quirky with it yet, other than the fact that most tanks are so fidgety when they tank I have to stun to make sure I can get the buff up or I risk "missing" the first one sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Yes they should. Unfortunately, I have A LOT of issues with the Dragoon.

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Hmm not sure why you would feel that way... DRG\\'s have the highest burst dmg... stack with LB you will easily hit for 4k lv1 9k lv2 single target . I have a brd also and from I can tell it doesn\\'t have as much burst. Killing adds is probably 2-3 times faster on my Drg than brd. BRD good for aoe but single target goes hands down to drg. The jumps areo to be saved for situations. Stun jump to catch up to distance mobs or cancel skills on bosses when leg sweep on CD. Aoe jump used for huge burst with adds on bosses then clean up with ring of thorns. The normal jump used for distance attack and return to previois spot to avoid charge dmg. Evasive jump to get away immediately when boss is about to aoe.

I now see what you mean. I ran out of tp real fast xD Looking for crit and determination now.

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Originally Posted by CherryCream

I now see what you mean. I ran out of tp real fast xD Looking for crit and determination now.

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Invigorate as soon as you drop to 500 TP (600 if you don't have the level 36 Exhilarate trait) for best TP management. That way you'll be at full TP while waiting on Invigorate's cooldown to run out. I've yet to run out of TP this way even in long fights (granted I'm level 38 at the moment).

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Another issue being Heavy Thrust buff being absolutely pointless.

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I don't think it's pointless. A 10% damage increase for 20 seconds is pretty damn nice IMO.

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Originally Posted by Karr285

Am I the only one who thinks our Jump abilities should also give us 100% evasion for the duration of the ability?

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This is my biggest peeve with the way they designed Dragoon. Damage evasion was a key trait of Jump in several FF games and it logically makes sense since you're up in the air during the animation. It's kind of nuts that they haven't made it like this. And because the animation is fairly long, you have to be careful when you use it because if you hit it at the wrong time and an enemy starts charging an attack, chances are you're not getting out of the way in time. It really needs to be changed.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

Invigorate as soon as you drop to 500 TP (600 if you don't have the level 36 Exhilarate trait) for best TP management. That way you'll be at full TP while waiting on Invigorate's cooldown to run out. I've yet to run out of TP this way even in long fights (granted I'm level 38 at the moment).

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I see what you mean, Invigorate does help a lot. I'll see how it all goes when I reach 50, though.

Ok so, freshly 50 and according to all the skills I can use and their description, what do you think of :

1 - Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Trust > True Trust > Vorpal Trust > Full Thrust
2 - (then skip first part since Disembowel still up so: True Trust > Vorpal Trust > Full Thrust) X 3
Repeat #1 after doing x3 the second part

Also Power Surge + Spineshatter every 90 sec

Makes sense ? also when do you use the 2 offensive jumps ?

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Originally Posted by NanoMidgy

Ok so, freshly 50 and according to all the skills I can use and their description, what do you think of :

1 - Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Trust > True Trust > Vorpal Trust > Full Thrust
2 - (then skip first part since Disembowel still up so: True Trust > Vorpal Trust > Full Thrust) X 3
Repeat #1 after doing x3 the second part

Also Power Surge + Spineshatter every 90 sec

Makes sense ? also when do you use the 2 offensive jumps ?

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The Chaos Thrust combo is a good one to start off with because of the piercing resistance debuff and the DOT. After that I would Heavy Thrust for the 10% extra damage then go into your Full Thrust combo (with your buff abilities used at your discretion, preferably while Disembowel and Heavy Thrust's effects are active). Power Surge makes more sense with regular Jump as it's 200 potency vs 170 for Spineshatter (unless you need the stun and Leg Sweep is on CD). This all of course while keeping your Phlebotomize and Fracture DOTS up.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

I don't think it's pointless. A 10% damage increase for 20 seconds is pretty damn nice IMO.

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It "seems" nice. In all honesty, it's weak. Yeah, you can agree it's 20 seconds and its on the GDC so you can instant pop-it. I guess that's how they balanced it, but it's CRAP. Now let's do some math. For this example, we'll use Valkkys Damage Calculator (http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=202)

So, let's make a 10s combo. We can use 4 GDC skills. One will be with Heavy Thrust. The other will be replaced with another True thrust. We're basing this off 363 Strength, 238 Determination, with a Gae Bolg (44 WD)

Without Heavy thrust

True Thrust - 207.93
Vorpal Thrust - 277.24
Full Thrust - 415.86
True Thrust - 207.93

Total = 1108.96


WITH Heavy Thrust

You have to remember that the 10% from Heavy Thrust applies AFTER you've used the skill. So, let's do the math (Note I'm only adding avg. dmg)

Heavy Thrust - 138.28 DMG
(*now buff applies*)
True Thrust - 228.72
Vorpal Thrust - 304.96
Full Thrust - 457.44

Total = 1129.4

This is way less than a 10% increase in damage in 10 seconds. Yes, that 20 damage could very well be a very killing factor, which does add-up over the course of a lengthy fight; If the fight is 15 minutes long, that's an extra 1800 damage in a fight.

Now of course, this is an unrealistic scenario, as we can use our Jumps in between our Rotations. But one is only every 40 seconds (300 potency), a 250 potency every 3 minutes, and a 170 potency every 90 seconds. This does add-up, but is Heavy Thrust even "worthy" of a buff? No. Maybe in longer fights like Primals. But for doing dungeons where the boss only takes 5 minutes of your time? Wouldn't even bother, the buff is so tiny.

15% would actually be much better.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

So, let's make a 10s combo.

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The simplest way to tell you this is that you are wrong and you should stop doing math. A) The buff last 20 seconds not 10 seconds so a 10 second sample for parsing examples is retarded. If you were to do this shit combo example over a 20 second period of the time the difference is more like 200 damage. B) given that its 20 seconds you wouldn't be using just vanilla BS true thrust rotation over and over you have to take into account that you have rotations like Chaos Thrust with better potency AND armor pen debuffs and you have a crapload of off GCD damage buffs that would scale with this over the course of the 20 seconds as well AND DoTs that benefit.

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Originally Posted by Chompers

The simplest way to tell you this is that you are wrong and you should stop doing math..

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Anyone that thinks a 20s buff for 10% dmg isn't worth using has some issues. I can kinda understand the dot arguments since they are relatively weak but +10% dmg is good especially post 40. The better gear you get the more useful it is. I figured it was bugged or something but making an argument about not using it because of GCD is just silly. There is a reason the melee classes have rotations filled with buffs/debuffs. The poster also didn't take into account having the scholar skill speed buff and possible skill speed gear. The scholar buff alone drops teh GCD to sub 2.3sec

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Originally Posted by Chompers

The simplest way to tell you this is that you are wrong and you should stop doing math. A) The buff last 20 seconds not 10 seconds so a 10 second sample for parsing examples is retarded. If you were to do this shit combo example over a 20 second period of the time the difference is more like 200 damage. B) given that its 20 seconds you wouldn't be using just vanilla BS true thrust rotation over and over you have to take into account that you have rotations like Chaos Thrust with better potency AND armor pen debuffs and you have a crapload of off GCD damage buffs that would scale with this over the course of the 20 seconds as well AND DoTs that benefit.

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He still proved its worth using though...since you do more damage...

Is there anyone else that finds the lack of aoe for Dragon/lancer on lower lvls disturbing?
Like when you have Fates where u GT kill multiple creatures, but you can only single target untill you hit 42+ for some of our aoe skills.
Or is it just me? Because my screen is always full on blizzards on these Fates and with that said won't get the max out of those fates.

Is there anything that is macro'able ?
Is there any system to use a "combo" unique key ? (like having True/Vorpal/Full Thrust) in one key ?

Some experienced DRG has doable rotations to offer? When I say doable I realize any sequence is doable, but in real time when you have to deal with bosses mechanics, switch to adds etc it can sometimes be better to efficiently apply something a tiny bit less optimal but a lot easier to stick to

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It "seems" nice. In all honesty, it's weak. Yeah, you can agree it's 20 seconds and its on the GDC so you can instant pop-it. I guess that's how they balanced it, but it's CRAP. Now let's do some math. For this example, we'll use Valkkys Damage Calculator (http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=202)

So, let's make a 10s combo. We can use 4 GDC skills. One will be with Heavy Thrust. The other will be replaced with another True thrust. We're basing this off 363 Strength, 238 Determination, with a Gae Bolg (44 WD)...

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This could be interesting to see, but on a 20 sec dps rotation (the time that last Heavy Thrust), because on only 10 sec you're not measuring the whole potential of that buff.

Could someone help me in regards to armour? I did a load of quests and got this slim plate like armour, however since then every "upgrade" has less actual armour, but a bit more stat wise, am I meant to sacrifice the armour for improved stats?

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Originally Posted by Deimos11

Could someone help me in regards to armour? I did a load of quests and got this slim plate like armour, however since then every "upgrade" has less actual armour, but a bit more stat wise, am I meant to sacrifice the armour for improved stats?

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I had the same issue. There are some really weird armors that quests give. Some 'Plate' armor are usable by us, some aren't. I end up having a really high armored piece with lower stats and being rewarded a lower armored piece with better stats later on, I choose the stats. In my mind, I'm a DPS anyway and I'm not supposed to be getting hit - which is what you should be aiming for anyway.

"plate" is never usable by us. we can use scale. it will say its usable by mara, glad, lancer (and jobs). it will drop dex entirely and be aimed at an offensive melee. Sadly not many quest give it at all. technically its -our- type of armor (and a paladin/warrior who wants to dps).

Very Good info thx !

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Originally Posted by Chompers

SNIP

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Hopefully you read this and understand the reasoning behind it.

Firstly, The Chaos Thrust Rotation isn't "powerful". I was basing this off the most powerful skill we could do. Secondly, the Dots ARE NOT AFFECTED by external buffs like Heavy Thrust and Blood for Blood. That's why I was using Thrust Combo as an example, because it's the hardest hitting rotation that a DRG has.

I even said at the bottom of my post that this isn't taking into count the off-CD skills (our jumps), and I even STATED that over the course of a long fight, these will add-up.

The point I'm trying to make is, Heavy Thrust makes 0 difference when you're killing smaller packs, solo, or bosses that take a few minutes of your time. Personally, I'd rather use that extra skill to add a utility skill like Feint during dungeon fights to support the Tank.

And I did the math including jumps for 20 seconds also, and the difference was only around 200 for the first 20 seconds (Cause of Jump), then went back down to a difference of around 50 or 60 if I remember correctly for the next 20 seconds (cause Cool Down). I'll have to redo the math because I lost the paper I did it on >_<

EDIT: Seeing as someone else has also asked for a 20 Second Rotation, I'll do it. Essentially, that's 8 GDC skills we can use, 1 of them has to be a Heavy Thrust, and will include a Power Surge > Jump. I'll only be using the Thrust Combo, like before, as this is the hardest hitting combo we can continuously do.

EDIT 2: Just for some MORE confirmation. In no way, shape or form am I saying it is completely useless. In no way am I saying we should NEVER use it, nor am I disregarding the skill. What I am saying is this. The Heavy Thrust buff doesn't warrant enough use during shorter fights. Against Primals, The Praetorium Dungeons against Ultima Weapon, Ampador Keep and Wanderer's Palace, if you don't use it you're insane and you need to stop playing a Dragoon.

Just to make it clear, I'm proving a point that during shorter fights, the buff is almost so small, you're better off using another GDC skill instead like a Utility or again, go back into your rotation, hence why I suggest for it to be buffed ever so slightly.

Someone needs to make sure that everything is working as intended, whether or not he/she gets hate for it, or whether he/she proves themselves wrong. Fact is, if no one creates these hypothesis' and test these mechanics, we'll never know.

Its still odd to me that you say it makes zero diffrence, then you give numbers showing how it is more dps. ill work out the math if needed, but if you did 300 damage in 20 seconds, and 60 damage in the next 20 seconds, thats 360 damage in 40 seconds, or 9 dps. meanwhile the only log at 50 ive seen posted off a fight long enough to be worth parsing left the highest dps 130. thats a 7% increase to their overall damage if they were to get this measly 9 dps increase. you know how much stuff people would do in other games for a 7% dps increase? im sure we could work out each abilities importance to your overall dps. what is the cut off? technically stuff will die sooner or later if you just do the full thrust combo over and over

Hrm... I have to make a point in regards to that buff.
He's saying it's not worth it on short duration fights, that's true DoTs and buffs like those aren't in case you're not using a large majority of the buff's timer, but- Even a single mob in every pull once you hit the L30+ dungeons already takes at least 30s to kill (I know that because i'm playing PGL rightn ow and Touch of Death tends to be at 2~3 second when the mob dies and it's my opener move).

Also just so you know, you can do some science to see if the DoT is affected by the buffs, btw. You should know that a DoT/Buff/Debuff will never be overwritten by a weaker version of the same (so Proshell won't be overwriten by Protect, for example, there was even some complaint in the forums about this). If you use a buff and then drop a dot, wait for the buff to wane and drop the dot again, you'll notice that it won't overwrite.

Heavy Thrust Test 2

So, just like before we're using:

• Gae Bolg (44 WD)
  
• 363 Strength
  
• 238 Determination
  
• 20 Seconds of skills, meaning 8 GCD skills
  
• We'll just the Thrust Combo as it is our hardest hitting skill we continuously use
  
• Previously, I included Blood for Blood. This time, I WILL NOT use BfB
  
• 1 Rotation will consist of using a Heavy Thrust at the beginning, and 7 GDC skills.
  
• Only changing Variable is the replacement of 1 of the skills to use Heavy Thrust at the beginning of the rotation.

Without Heavy Thrust

True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
Impulse Drive - 191.93

Total = 1579.11

With Heavy Thrust

For this, I will not use Impulse Drive, and replace it with the Heavy Thrust at the beginning of the Rotation.

Heavy Thrust - 106.63
Now 10% Heavy Thrust buff activates
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88

Total: 1631.47

Now, let's include Power Surge > Jump

Without Heavy Thrust

Power Surge > Jump - 319.89
This is because 50% buff to Jump = 300 potency, same as Full Thrust

Total: 1899

With Heavy Thrust

Power Surge > Jump - 351.88
This is because 50% buff to Jump = 300 potency, same as Full Thrust

Total: 1983.35

Damage Differences

Basic Rotation = 51.36 AVG damage

With Jumps included = 84.35


Looks like my math was completely off previously when I said there's a difference with 300 damage. I guess it was because I did it off my head and got one of the numbers wrong or something.

Your call guys. Is Heavy Thrust worth that extra 52 damage or would you rather use that 2.5s to go into a Chaos Thrust Rotation, or Support your tank with a Leg Sweep/Feint? I'd rather use my utility.

Now remember this is for 20 seconds. Just like before, I will say this. Over the course of a long boss fight, where the fight lasts 15 minutes or so, we will be able to do an extra 2295 damage. 2295 in 15 minutes. lol. A BLM can do that damage in a few seconds with Crits. That's why I suggest Heavy Thrust buff to be increased to 15%. It's too tiny right now.

But it's up to you guys to decide whether this needs a buff or not. I've said what I need to say.

Why wouldn't you consider using heavy thrust with blood for blood and other buffs...? Have you seen the huge dif it makes..? I used heavy thrust and blood for blood and the crit raises over 50-150 more dmg on one weapon skill than without heavy thruat. That is way more than your calculation. All I know is I've tried running wonderers palace with and without heavy thrust and it was about 10-15mins faster over all to clear. Sure there are many variables... but trust me stack your heavy thrust with all bufss and then use the combo and watch how much dmg u do... it even escalates even more with a limit break

Sometimes u guys have to go by experince of what u see and stop trying to calculate with just math. This game has too many variables. Is it worth using heavy thrust stack with internal release and blood for blood and life surge with piercing dmg resistance for a extra 150 dmg on a crit in your simple combo rotation ? Yes . Drgs are a low gcd class waiting fir one rotation for increased 10% dmg for the next 20 seconds is godly. Try it out you'll see a huge difference with and without

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Originally Posted by SolRising

SNIP

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The standard Rotation, even with BfB, the difference with damage is 68.068. I might have to redo all of the skills individually to get an accurate result, I just multiplied the damage output by 1.3

Now. You also have to remember you're on a 90s cooldown with BfB, so that increase of damage only works every 90 seconds.

Just to prove another point: an extra 5% buff, if Heavy Thrust where to be 15% and not 10%, the standard rotation damage would be 1707.712. That's over 70 extra damage, increasing the difference to 128.602, making our damage spike shit loads to 5787.09 over 15 minutes.

Now THAT is a nicer buff which would ALWAYS make you want to use Heavy Thrust at all times. Do you see where I'm getting at here? It's not "what you see" when you're fighting, but it's the numbers themselves that are off-putting.

THAT's why I want Heavy Thrust to be buffed to 15%. Because the damage increase right now is so tiny, and other classes, unfortunately, can hit harder, and more frequently than the Dragoon.

And just for extra Clarification, I know how to use the Dragoon very well. You pop BfB, Then Internal Release after the Heavy Strike, then when you go into the Thrust Combo, you use Power Surge > Vorpal > Life Surge > Full Thrust > Jump. You do it like this so you min/max your damage so you're constantly hitting when you hit that 2.5s.

Sadly, once you burst like this, your downtime is rather bad until you can get back up and you'll need your Dots, Chaos Thrust, Ploebotomize & Fracture, ensuring you use Heavy Thrust before hand so the initial damaging hit + auto-attack as high as it can, to bring your damage back up otherwise you're lagging behind that BLM/MNK.

Unless this is how the DRG is meant to be played? A Burst Class, which uses utilities to help the tank whilst in down-time? Which means all you Dragoons who removed Feint of your Cross-Class... Needs to put it back on.

Drgs has always been the burst melee dps really... and u can't compare range dps like blm with melee dps. Blms are a lot less squishy. They are two entirely different play styles

Meant to say blms are a lot more squishy sorry. But ya you really have to compare melee dps like mnk and drg noy drg and blm. Sure I'd love a 15% increase in dmg.. then every class will be drgs only for dps regardless range or melee

Is anyone theroycrafting with skill speed over critical or determination? Just to know...

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Is anyone theroycrafting with skill speed over critical or determination? Just to know...

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i played around with a lot of numbers this morning and found:

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Originally Posted by xyaie

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lets say str is an EP, ill set everything equal to it:
WD: 10.541
Str: 1
det: .193
crit: .222
*SS: .191

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note: this is NOT the best representation of skill speed as it only takes into account the whole "hitting faster" aspect and not the CD reduction or the increased TP cost. Ill make a spreadsheet for it all later that will more accurately represent this. check post 18 at http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1170742 for how i reached those numbers

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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Firstly, The Chaos Thrust Rotation isn't "powerful". I was basing this off the most powerful skill we could do. Secondly, the Dots ARE NOT AFFECTED by external buffs like Heavy Thrust and Blood for Blood. That's why I was using Thrust Combo as an example, because it's the hardest hitting rotation that a DRG has.

...

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Sorry but that's just flat out wrong. Go find a target dummy and apply Phlebotomize without any buffs and watch the damage ticks. Then do it with Heavy Thrust up, then with Heavy Thrust and Blood for Blood up. Not only do they benefit from the buffs but if you apply a DoT with buffs up and the buffs fade before the DoT does the DoT still ticks as if you had the buffs. DoTs in F14:ARR are 'snapshot' style. They use your stats and buffs from when you applied the DoT for the entirety of the DoT's duration.

To change the subject a little, what would be a beneficial DoH profession for a DRG? I was told either Armorsmith or Carpenter, but outside of repairs with Armorsmith...i don't know what the benefits of each Profession would be.

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Originally Posted by Brynmor

Sorry but that's just flat out wrong. Go find a target dummy and apply Phlebotomize without any buffs and watch the damage ticks. Then do it with Heavy Thrust up, then with Heavy Thrust and Blood for Blood up. Not only do they benefit from the buffs but if you apply a DoT with buffs up and the buffs fade before the DoT does the DoT still ticks as if you had the buffs. DoTs in F14:ARR are 'snapshot' style. They use your stats and buffs from when you applied the DoT for the entirety of the DoT's duration.

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Unless they changed it from Phase 3, when myself and multiple others tested out DoTs, then I apologize for my misinformation. I'll test it myself once the servers are back up.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Heavy Thrust Test 2

Without Heavy Thrust

True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
Impulse Drive - 191.93

Total = 1579.11

With Heavy Thrust

For this, I will not use Impulse Drive, and replace it with the Heavy Thrust at the beginning of the Rotation.

Heavy Thrust - 106.63
Now 10% Heavy Thrust buff activates
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88

Total: 1631.47

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Question: Why is Heavy Thrust only doing 106.63 damage? Shouldn't it be doing 181.27 assuming that you are flaking when using it (170 potency when flaking)? Or does the 170 potency no longer exist (can't login to confirm right now)?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBNoHo

Question: Why is Heavy Thrust only doing 106.63 damage? Shouldn't it be doing 181.27 assuming that you are flaking when using it (170 potency when flaking)? Or does the 170 potency no longer exist (can't login to confirm right now)?

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Looks like someone forgot somethinggggggggg

Dring my way to lvl 50 I've encountered some things I find curious.
Most ppl say that mail is for Lancers, I agreed with this since I sounded logical.
Now on quest rewards and even on story line you most get leather, now comes the tricky part.
The leather does have lesser armor and has dex wich doesn't really have use for lnc/drg, but since the leather has 2 secondary stats and mail only one. This doesn't make gearing any easier and I end up taking the leather gear since it has better overall stats.
Is there anyone to clarify this? Do we just wear both untill 50 or is this a error SE made in specifying our gear??

does disembowel affect everyone's piercing damage or just yours? the tool tip makes it sound like only 1 person needs to be using the disembowel combo

Don't forget that Heavy Thrust bonus is also applied to any normal swings that you automatically fit into any rotation.

Is all the dragoon armor sets the same color or is there different color sets.

From which level is worth to use materia on dragoon? or it is better just to level up and wait till end game?