[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

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Originally Posted by SogiYa

wait ... what?



... and yet you can't even pick up the context of hypothetically getting killed while doing a leavequest?

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With how well written his OP was (while I really only disagree with the SP/XP loss part) I'm surprised that his posts degenerated into flat out personal attacks so quickly.

I hadn't even noticed that he WAS the op, I guess after putting that much work into it he's kinda sensitive?

*shrug*

who the hell sings that "Answers" song anyway? doing a search turns up a mountain of crap ... morbid curiosity.

Death penalties don't exist to "slow you down", they exist to make you not want to be bad, not want to play with bad players, to be afraid of dying, and to actually feel scared and stuff. FF14 is "oh oops I died oh well!" "oh let me go suicide i don't care if I die!". No one tries to survive because it doesn't matter, your life is not on the line and it's VERY boring.
Rift suffers from the same thing, you lose 10gold if you die(less than 1 monster worth of money, a soloable monster)and I never care if I die in that game.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Death penalties don't exist to "slow you down", they exist to make you not want to be bad, not want to play with bad players, to be afraid of dying, and to actually feel scared and stuff. FF14 is "oh oops I died oh well!" "oh let me go suicide i don't care if I die!". No one tries to survive because it doesn't matter, your life is not on the line and it's VERY boring.
Rift suffers from the same thing, you lose 10gold if you die(less than 1 monster worth of money, a soloable monster)and I never care if I die in that game.

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That, that and that!

I've played Lineage 2 for years, to die usually meant losing 1 peace of gear to the first guy who piked it and a 4% xp lost (that could be recovered by 70% with healer's resurrection). We would go to the trouble of teach our clan m8s how to play in order not to die uselessly, cus the price could be a week of xp worth x9 (9 players per party) and a month of crafting work. Ok i give you that it was not fun when it appended, but it was the reason I enjoyed staying alive, cus dieing was rly rly bad.

If dieing is not bad, and all u have to do is a 2-5 min bio break... or pay a little money and move on... whats the point of avoiding death. In wow when i need to go afk i leave my character where it is, if it gets killed there is no problem... ill just res when I get back, In l2? afking out of town without 8+ guys backing you up? got to bad mad.

I'll tell you a particular episode that you will NEVER see in a game without death penalty. These happened in L2 c3 i think, I was lvl 70ish with a group of 8 more guys in the highest area of the game, the mobs spawned constantly it was hard enough. My role was support buffer (BD) my buffs would double the party's dmg. Suddenly I stopped buffing, it was 4am and yah... I fell asleep, my clan m8s stayed there around 30 min until I woke up and dragged my character to a safe zone with them escorting me. They could left me to die, but they knew that if they did, I would probably lose a peace of gear and a lot of xp. So they stayed there when they wanted to leave, for my sake. That sort of commitment for a friend, a clan m8 or even a random guy you find struggling on the road will never happen in a game without drawbacks. In wow if a player gets afk? kick him, Drag mobs and fake death on him, who cares... No one gives a damn.

I'm not hereby demanding xp penalty on death, but a significant drawback on death that will make us actually avoid dieing.

In a game where the item has not gear requirements but recommendations, losing 1 lvl will not completely downgrade you. Also if you reach rank 50 and die more then 10 times in the same day, its because you are extremely bad or some one leveled the character for you, cus I don't believe that you will make 10 partys with only bad guys nor that during the 50 ranks you haven't learned anything.


But the death penalty is only a fragment. What is mostly laking in the game is the surprise effect, at the exception of storyline quests, you already know everything that is going to happen from the start. It's like wow raids, you know them before you actually do them... It's like a spoiled movie... not fun at all.

Excellent post OP. Captures my thoughts on XIV exactly.

Great thread save for a certain barbarian that can't be reasoned with.

Again I have played games were gear loss and xp loss were a part of the mechanic. You're going to die and suffer the penalty. All I did was make sure I always had spare sets of gear and buffer xp. In a system where everything is risk vs reward the risk has no meaning. I'm telling you the reason death penalties exist from a developers point of view is in fact there to slow your progression to keep you playing and paying your sub longer. It's not speculation it is fact. Also the death penalties have rarely if ever made a bad player a good one. I've seen bad players slowly progress through these harsh death penalty mmos from start to finish and never get better in any way. So then I guess we could add that if a bad player can still progress even with xp loss then the penalty hasn't even added to the difficulty of the game they have just made it take longer. That doesn't add to the fun it's just a time sink.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Also the death penalties have rarely if ever made a bad player a good one. I've seen bad players slowly progress through these harsh death penalty mmos from start to finish and never get better in any way.

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Thanks OP~ XP/SP loss certainly won't make all 'bad players' better ones. What it is good at is fostering a sense of necessary teamwork: you ask friends, LS, shouts, forum posts for advice or to party up against particularly difficult fights in game where death is prone. Basically, things people can't do in 150 seconds. This even applies unlocking camps in XIV in Mor Dohna (sp) for instance.

Its this player cohesion that makes a realm a true battle environment (point of this thread) where players mitigate risk with strategies and teamwork, not "Lets try and just 'Return' if we die" or "A mob is chasing me that I will outrun anyway lolol".

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Originally Posted by Boricua

Thanks OP~ XP/SP loss certainly won't make all 'bad players' better ones. What it is good at is fostering a sense of necessary teamwork: you ask friends, LS, shouts, forum posts for advice or to party up against particularly difficult fights in game where death is prone. Basically, things people can't do in 150 seconds. This even applies unlocking camps in XIV in Mor Dohna (sp) for instance.

Its this player cohesion that makes a realm a true battle environment (point of this thread) where players mitigate risk with strategies and teamwork, not "Lets try and just 'Return' if we die" or "A mob is chasing me that I will outrun anyway lolol".

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Even though the NMs we have now are a joke you still need to learn to work as a team to take them down. Same thing accomplished through actual content rather than using a superficial mechanic. I can agree that the game we have now lacks exciting content. No doubt about that. Add Beastmen tribes in all the zones so that if a newbie isn't paying attention they get murdered by a bunch of beast men. They might learn something and get the same sense of "excitement" the next time they come across these beastmen sitting around a camp fire. Maybe they will avoid them because they don't want to sit around with their hands in their pockets for 3 mins. Or maybe they will take them on to try and get their revenge. A harsher death penalty brings nothing to the table in this situation other than to encourage our young player to avoid the encounter all together and continue killing no risk mobs until those beastmen become no risk mobs. That in turn pretty much negates the purpose of adding the more challenging mobs to begin with.

You are wrong cus sitting your ass off for 3 min is nothing.

Life is a duality of risk vs reward and without one there can not be the other, if you take risk, what you call reward is nothing but a given thing. Its the difference of saying "if things get bad lets run the hell out" and saying if things get bad just die fast re spawn and lets do other thing. It is the sentence I hate the most in WoW "die fast and respawn". The reason that almost no one does pugs in wow its cus there is no death penalty, ppl don't bother to read the guides cus if they die and make every one die the only thing they have to do is re spawn and try again over and over and over. If they lost something tangible they would be pissed of at deign and would bother into learning the tactics b4 raids. Thats why ppl like me did there first cataclysmic boss on bwd with 18k dps, did the head job, and others made us die on stupid thing like making adds, not avoiding flames. I was "trained" not to fail cus failing had a big price. Most ppl that only played wow don't care if they fail, there is no price, there is no loss. For that same reason I don't find wow rewarding and find almost all the bosses a kid's joke.

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Originally Posted by Dragonhand

You are wrong cus sitting your ass off for 3 min is nothing.

Life is a duality of risk vs reward and without one there can not be the other, if you take risk, what you call reward is nothing but a given thing. Its the difference of saying "if things get bad lets run the hell out" and saying if things get bad just die fast re spawn and lets do other thing. It is the sentence I hate the most in WoW "die fast and respawn". The reason that almost no one does pugs in wow its cus there is no death penalty, ppl don't bother to read the guides cus if they die and make every one die the only thing they have to do is re spawn and try again over and over and over. If they lost something tangible they would be pissed of at deign and would bother into learning the tactics b4 raids. Thats why ppl like me did there first cataclysmic boss on bwd with 18k dps, did the head job, and others made us die on stupid thing like making adds, not avoiding flames. I was "trained" not to fail cus failing had a big price. Most ppl that only played wow don't care if they fail, there is no price, there is no loss. For that same reason I don't find wow rewarding and find almost all the bosses a kid's joke.

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Umm even though I hate WoW I happen to know for a fact that if a raid wipes even once people get pissed. If it happens over and over again it's likely that if the wipe is caused by 1 person they would likely find themselves without a guild. Also I have been around the block when it comes to MMOs so don't make the mistake of thinking I come from a WoW background. Again when everything is risk vs reward the risk becomes a non factor. You're only choice is to go for the reward or pay for an elaborate chat room because all you would do is stand in the safety of a town and chat.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Maybe they will avoid them because they don't want to sit around with their hands in their pockets for 3 mins. Or maybe they will take them on to try and get their revenge. A harsher death penalty brings nothing to the table

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Just to clarify there is nothing harsh about being weakened.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

Just to clarify there is nothing harsh about being weakened.

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I suppose if you like to watch TV instead of actually playing the game. I personally do not enjoy standing around for 3 mins not having fun in a game but it tolerable.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Again when everything is risk vs reward the risk becomes a non factor. You're only choice is to go for the reward or pay for an elaborate chat room because all you would do is stand in the safety of a town and chat.

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There's nothing safer about not having anything to loose when currently going into combat, thats the problem. So the only difference between leaving the city in this game is your getting gil thrown at you or your not (crafting/gathering aside).

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I suppose if you like to watch TV instead of actually playing the game. I personally do not enjoy standing around for 3 mins not having fun in a game.

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Not exactly, what I'm trying to say is even a childhood 'timeout' (understood to be the least severe of juvenile punishment) lasted longer than FFXIV weakened.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

Not exactly, what I'm trying to say is even a childhood 'timeout' (understood to be the least severe of juvenile punishment) lasted longer than FFXIV weakened.

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True but the only time you get a time out when playing a game is for breaking the rules. Here we get punished for simply playing the game and not even for playing it badly. As an example the is a story line quest in the game that forces you to run past mobs that can easily kill you at rank 50. There are 3 possible paths to take and finding the best one was a matter of trial and error and little to do with skill. Even after finding the best path and having some skill at dodging aggro a lot depended on random pathing of mobs as I was running through. Even though the death penalty in the game is light I felt a great sense of accomplishment when I made it through and finished the quest.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I suppose if you like to watch TV instead of actually playing the game. I personally do not enjoy standing around for 3 mins not having fun in a game but it tolerable.

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Then try not to die. If you do so what it's only 3 minutes. Go get a drink or something while you wait. It's no different than dying in many other games. You die, you have to sit through a screen saying "game over" or something, then you have to go through a menu to reload your saved game. If it's a quick respawn type of game then you likely have to start at a previous checkpoint that makes you go through more of the game.

There's penalties in the video game world for dying. Why should MMO's be any different? Because cry babies like you don't want to wait 3 minutes? Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Then try not to die. If you do so what it's only 3 minutes. Go get a drink or something while you wait. It's no different than dying in many other games. You die, you have to sit through a screen saying "game over" or something, then you have to go through a menu to reload your saved game. If it's a quick respawn type of game then you likely have to start at a previous checkpoint that makes you go through more of the game.

There's penalties in the video game world for dying. Why should MMO's be any different? Because cry babies like you don't want to wait 3 minutes? Give me a break.

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And If I already have a drink and don't need to bio or anything else you might come up with? Simply because I place more value on my time than you how does that make me a cry baby. I don't think I have ever been that emotionally attached to any video game or mechanic in a video game to cry over it. In most FF games I've played I often would just come right back from the save point that was right before the boss fight I died on.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

And If I already have a drink and don't need to bio or anything else you might come up with? Simply because I place more value on my time than you how does that make me a cry baby. I don't think I have ever been that emotionally attached to any video game or mechanic in a video game to cry over it.

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Because you're whining over something very minor. A penalty of some sort is needed, especially in an MMO. They are in all video games. If you don't like it, tough. They simply are not going to get rid of death penalties so you're wasting your time complaining about it.

Also, video games are technically a waste of time anyway, and if you play an MMO, something people typically spend many hours a day playing you clearly don't value it that much.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Because you're whining over something very minor. A penalty of some sort is needed, especially in an MMO. They are in all video games. If you don't like it, tough. They simply are not going to get rid of death penalties so you're wasting your time complaining about it.

Also, video games are technically a waste of time anyway, and if you play an MMO, something people typically spend many hours a day playing you clearly don't value it that much.

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Well for me it's fun vs not fun. Losing hours worth of progression and or standing around not playing is not fun. I'm not whining simply defending my stance and thoughts on the subject just as you are doing. I'm not saying they need to chop death penalties all together but they need to limit how much "not fun" their players have to deal with. As it stands now there is already a whole bunch of "not fun" in this game. I don't think they need to add more.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Well for me it's fun vs not fun. Losing hours worth of progression and or standing around not playing is not fun. I'm not whining simply defending my stance and thoughts on the subject just as you are doing.

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You must play all your games on easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

You must play all your games on easy mode.

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Thats news to me. I often go for platinum trophies that require you to complete the game on it's hardest mode. To me in no way does time sink or death penalty equal challenge.

Dragonhand's story is amazing, and things like that basically happened in FF11 all the time when it was new(pre-toau/abyssea), and cannot exist in a game with no death penalty. It creates bonds, teamwork, strategy, fun, and good stories you can remember for the rest of your gaming life ^-^

This is why xzen is wrong when he thinks a death penalty is just "holding you back" "making things take longer" blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Dragonhand's story is amazing, and things like that basically happened in FF11 all the time when it was new(pre-toau/abyssea), and cannot exist in a game with no death penalty. It creates bonds, teamwork, strategy, fun, and good stories you can remember for the rest of your gaming life ^-^

This is why xzen is wrong when he thinks a death penalty is just "holding you back" "making things take longer" blah blah blah.

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Again you can get all that from good content over the superficial "harsh death penalty."

Nope, you can't. I don't care if I die, I don't care if anyone dies, dying doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Nope, you can't. I don't care if I die, I don't care if anyone dies, dying doesn't matter.

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It didn't matter in FFXI or UO or any other game for that matter either. Harsh death penalty or not I enjoy success when I take down an NM and dislike wiping on them over and over again. I'm sure nobody likes wiping over and over even with the light penalty we have now. I also enjoy helping others and don't require a death penalty to make me a better person or player. If I see some one dieing me and most of the players on my server would throw a heal on them. If we saw some one dead we cast a raise on them. All these virtues and bonding experiences exist now with out the harsh death penalty.

I guess its a good think Yoshi already stated there will not be any sp/xp loss on death. and like Xzen already stated it doesn't add challenge all it does is ensure you stay away from anything challenging.

To the original poster, Darth Taru. Great job, man. Reading that first post in the thread has actually hit the cord in me. It's statements are true to the very end. To me it brings a sense of remembrance where playing that first Final Fantasy MMO brings a smile to my face when I think of my friends, family, and relative strangers that played the game together in a quest to accomplish a story. Your story. If only Square Enix's second MMO could reach that level of success. I have really great faith in Yoshi-P, but for now.....I think it's time I pick up my abandoned Tarutaru Black Mage I created three years ago in the Final Fantasy XI realm while I wait for this game to get better.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

To the original poster, Darth Taru. Great job, man. Reading that first post in the thread has actually hit the cord in me. It's statements are true to the very end. To me it brings a sense of remembrance where playing that first Final Fantasy MMO brings a smile to my face when I think of my friends, family, and relative strangers that played the game together in a quest to accomplish a story. Your story. If only Square Enix's second MMO could reach that level of success. I have really great faith in Yoshi-P, but for now.....I think it's time I pick up my abandoned Tarutaru Black Mage I created three years ago in the Final Fantasy XI realm while I wait for this game to get better.

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Funny, all this XI nostalgia got me to back to XI as well. Surprisingly huge amount of new and returning players. It's pretty refreshing. Especially with the new EXP rates cutting grind time down to like 30% of what it used to be.

Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry. I had that same story, except we fought the damn skeletons. and we won! (of course when sea horror popped and one shotted me i didnt end up making it to bubumiru...) What made that exciting for me was not the fear of losing exp, it was the new exciting thing that happened unexpectedly and facing that threat, wondering what rewards i might get for doing these difficult tasks. People in FFXI by an large played like a bunch of punks, people were afraid to try difficult things *by and large until someone else came along and figured out how to do it. People kissed peoples butts and tried to just get in on something once some linkshell figured out how to do it with minimal death, most people ran from challenges, or begged for help for 10 hours.

Death penalty doesnt make people play better. Death penalty does people not want to die, but that usually translates into playing like bunch of punks and getting mad all the time because someone else killed you. Adding challenge to fights is definitely needed, but death penalty doesnt add challenge, and you reach points where people dont care, or are expected to deal with it. FFXI had death penalties, and yet the expected techniques for finishing content often involved killing yourself. Truth is no FF has needed a death penalty to be considered difficult other than 11. The only penalty comes if your whole party dies, or whatever special situational condition isnt met, and in challenging game, if everyone dies, your probably going to have to start from scratch, but that is as easy a monster getting its hp back in 2.5 minutes if no one has agro.

And yeah the dude is right, its a bad idea to try to make this game ffxi-2 because that game already exists, its still commercially viable, they need to hit the people who got tired of the same old, or want something new. They still get the 11 lovers money with 11. Really they should just update all the graphics to 11 to keep that market going. But this game should be something different, otherwise it has no reason to exist. most other FFs are a far departure from the one that came before it.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

(weakness means nothing for gatherers) other than loosing prospective fish/ores/wood.

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I would like to correct the record here. Weakness kills the ability to gather (at least it does for miner) by reducing your stamina bar to a tiny sliver. It also imposes a severe SP / Exp penalty if you are gathering to level up. I'm not trying to troll, but as a veteran (R50 miner) I thought I should clarify how weakness currently affects the class.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry. I had that same story, except we fought the damn skeletons. and we won! (of course when sea horror popped and one shotted me i didnt end up making it to bubumiru...) What made that exciting for me was not the fear of losing exp, it was the new exciting thing that happened unexpectedly and facing that threat, wondering what rewards i might get for doing these difficult tasks. People in FFXI by an large played like a bunch of punks, people were afraid to try difficult things *by and large until someone else came along and figured out how to do it. People kissed peoples butts and tried to just get in on something once some linkshell figured out how to do it with minimal death, most people ran from challenges, or begged for help for 10 hours.

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So you state that "we fought the damn skeletons. and we won!" yet contradict yourself by saying "Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry." Clearly it does not as YOU stated YOU fought them, and won! Good job! You got a group together and faced a challenge.

Did you feel accomplished, was it exciting because IF YOU DIED there was a risk and penalty (you can say no, but there is no argument it clearly adds to the game, making you angry doesn't mean it had a negative affect), and IF YOU WON there was a reward? You wanted to see what drops they had? You felt like trying something new?

Great Job, I am two sentences in and am not going to waste my time going any further with your post...

This game needs to stop catering to children and people who want a mindless zergfest and everything handed to them on a silver platter. Prime example: Little red sunshine's. When I logged in after the update and saw this I couldn't help but think to myself 'you have got to be kidding, did everyone wake up and get on the short bus this morning?'

Walking up to a mob the first time and having it aggro you should do two things:
1) Put you at risk (when you die, it shouldn't just HP you and set you on a 2 min timer, that's pathetic)
2) Teach you a lesson so you can LEARN and CORRECT yourself in the future, its called progression its what these games are about.

The death penalty is only one minor aspect, the game needs a thrill even the minor events like running from a mob and escaping (not the run 10 ft and it returns kind). This is one minor detail for a very broad subject.

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Originally Posted by Bre

So you state that "we fought the damn skeletons. and we won!" yet contradict yourself by saying "Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry." Clearly it does not as YOU stated YOU fought them, and won! Good job! You got a group together and faced a challenge.

Did you feel accomplished, was it exciting because IF YOU DIED there was a risk and penalty (you can say no, but there is no argument it clearly adds to the game, making you angry doesn't mean it had a negative affect), and IF YOU WON there was a reward? You wanted to see what drops they had? You felt like trying something new?

Great Job, I am two sentences in and am not going to waste my time going any further with your post...

This game needs to stop catering to children and people who want a mindless zergfest and everything handed to them on a silver platter. Prime example: Little red sunshine's. When I logged in after the update and saw this I couldn't help but think to myself 'you have got to be kidding, did everyone wake up and get on the short bus this morning?'

Walking up to a mob the first time and having it aggro you should do two things:
1) Put you at risk (when you die, it shouldn't just HP you and set you on a 2 min timer, that's pathetic)
2) Teach you a lesson so you can LEARN and CORRECT yourself in the future, its called progression its what these games are about.

The death penalty is only one minor aspect, the game needs a thrill even the minor events like running from a mob and escaping (not the run 10 ft and it returns kind). This is one minor detail for a very broad subject.

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Sorry but for a lot of people like the one your responding to the death penalty means nothing and has no effect on the enjoyment of the game. Thats why the people that seem to be for it hide while the people that it doesn't add a sense of danger for just go for it. It doesn't add anything it's just an annoyance to us.

First of all let me say that it brings me a certain joy to hear that so many XI veterans enjoyed reading my opening post. I certainly enjoyed writing it because to do so I got to reflect back on it.
It goes without saying that XI veterans, whether hardcore Tiamat Trouncers or casual socialites, seem to have a sort of bond between them that I do not see in other MMOs. It was such an amazing odyssey from beginning to end, defined mostly by the memory of our friends. "Community" defines us, to be sure.

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

I'm reading through all of these posts that claim a penalty for death adds nothing to the game; that it only hinders your progression and wastes your time. Well, quite honestly, I don't know what it is you get out of MMO's. I don't know what MMO's you've played (although I have a few good guesses!) and I don't really care.

What I do know, is that in Final Fantasy XI, when making a desperate escape from a monster above and beyond our capabilities, I sincerely appreciated the efforts of, say, the Paladin, who provoked the mob of his fleeing comrades and perhaps even died to see that the rest of us survived. Under your system, that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
One needs only visit youtube to see the difference in mentality. In every World of Warcraft remembrance movie i've ever seen, it was nothing but a bunch of CS's, snapshots, and raid zergs, while in the Final Fantasy tributes (which seem to vastly outnumber the WoW) it is a montage of friends.

As for hiding from a lvl 70 NM Pirate and his crew of lvl 40 pirates... Ya, I was a level 10.
Even Gandalf the Grey knew it was time to run when the Balrog made his grand appearance. The book and movie would have been pretty lame if Frodo just chopped through everything he encountered. But that goes back to what I said Final Fantasy was about, and that's the journey. I didn't hide from the pirates forever.

Later on, when my friend wanted a drop from the NM, Captain, they seemed to hide from me.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

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you damned hypocrite.

The Wow players have long gone back or switched to Rift. You'll have to find another scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

First of all let me say that it brings me a certain joy to hear that so many XI veterans enjoyed reading my opening post. I certainly enjoyed writing it because to do so I got to reflect back on it.
It goes without saying that XI veterans, whether hardcore Tiamat Trouncers or casual socialites, seem to have a sort of bond between them that I do not see in other MMOs. It was such an amazing odyssey from beginning to end, defined mostly by the memory of our friends. "Community" defines us, to be sure.

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

I'm reading through all of these posts that claim a penalty for death adds nothing to the game; that it only hinders your progression and wastes your time. Well, quite honestly, I don't know what it is you get out of MMO's. I don't know what MMO's you've played (although I have a few good guesses!) and I don't really care.

What I do know, is that in Final Fantasy XI, when making a desperate escape from a monster above and beyond our capabilities, I sincerely appreciated the efforts of, say, the Paladin, who provoked the mob of his fleeing comrades and perhaps even died to see that the rest of us survived. Under your system, that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
One needs only visit youtube to see the difference in mentality. In every World of Warcraft remembrance movie i've ever seen, it was nothing but a bunch of CS's, snapshots, and raid zergs, while in the Final Fantasy tributes (which seem to vastly outnumber the WoW) it is a montage of friends.

As for hiding from a lvl 70 NM Pirate and his crew of lvl 40 pirates... Ya, I was a level 10.
Even Gandalf the Grey knew it was time to run when the Balrog made his grand appearance. The book and movie would have been pretty lame if Frodo just chopped through everything he encountered. But that goes back to what I said Final Fantasy was about, and that's the journey. I didn't hide from the pirates forever.

Later on, when my friend wanted a drop from the NM, Captain, they seemed to hide from me.

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You've made a poor assumption. I do not like WoW and I am a FFXI veteran.

Well I am neither a FFXI vet nor a WoW fan... I am even worse!!! I left Guild Wars for XIV after some friends tried getting me into XI. This has nothing to do with that but just giving some background. But seriously, excluding the whole "death penalty" thing - which it seems this thread is going to very fast - I believe the OP described a great adventure in XI that he experienced not as a level 50 or what ever the level cap was at that point, but as a mere level 10. From just reading this, I wish I was there myself.

Now please don't slander me or anything else, but I believe XIV from what it started as to what it is now, has made a giant leap. There are things we aren't all going to agree upon and things we will agree upon. The major thing we need to pull out of the OP is not the death penalty - which everyone seems to be focusing on which is beyond me - is that of the lack of adventure, the lack of surprise, the lack of suspense, the lack of challenge etc.

I agree with the OP that the game defiantly needs some things added to it, however, I agree with the "troll" that yes it is a different game, it isn't XI. If there is something you want, like the adventures of XI then try to make it work for XIV. If we pull anything out of this whole entire thread, it is the lack of .... that the game has to offer. In the end, it will be up to the developers to decide what they put in and what they think will be worth it. All we can do its voice our opinions.

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Originally Posted by shots

Well I am neither a FFXI vet nor a WoW fan... I am even worse!!! I left Guild Wars for XIV after some friends tried getting me into XI. This has nothing to do with that but just giving some background. But seriously, excluding the whole "death penalty" thing - which it seems this thread is going to very fast - I believe the OP described a great adventure in XI that he experienced not as a level 50 or what ever the level cap was at that point, but as a mere level 10. From just reading this, I wish I was there myself.

Now please don't slander me or anything else, but I believe XIV from what it started as to what it is now, has made a giant leap. There are things we aren't all going to agree upon and things we will agree upon. The major thing we need to pull out of the OP is not the death penalty - which everyone seems to be focusing on which is beyond me - is that of the lack of adventure, the lack of surprise, the lack of suspense, the lack of challenge etc.

I agree with the OP that the game defiantly needs some things added to it, however, I agree with the "troll" that yes it is a different game, it isn't XI. If there is something you want, like the adventures of XI then try to make it work for XIV. If we pull anything out of this whole entire thread, it is the lack of .... that the game has to offer. In the end, it will be up to the developers to decide what they put in and what they think will be worth it. All we can do its voice our opinions.

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I'm right there with you and agree and like most of the high adventure that was in FFXI and is not in FFXIV. However the op has made it clear that he thinks it was the death penalty that made it that way and not the great content that FFXI had and FFXIV lacks.

I definetly think its the high adventure missing from this game. Its really that the content is few and far between in this game. The levels dont seem that well planned out either. The zones tend not to have many landmarks. Its real lack is in most of these things. The death penalty isnt what made ffxi.

By the way the guy that responded to me, i wasnt contradicting myself. It was because i didnt care about the death penalty, that i had fun. I will admit i was more impressed with the tank who sacrificed thier exp for the team, or the whm that benedictioned in the crucial moment, but those people were few and far between.

oh yeah, and im pretty sure those skeletons were probably like level 20 or so, sea horror was way higher, but the skeles were fodder.

I'm with xzen, sogiya and others (although I find myself wishing the discussion was more civil), a death penalty does not in itself make anything more challenging. It makes games more tedious, and as I often try to explain to ls members, they are not the same thing. A challenging experience is one where you feel like you've achieved something after you've beaten it, and the challenge itself should be fun. Let's say this is your average boss fight in an RPG. You spend 5, maybe 10 minutes on the average one, if it's hard you might need to reload to your save (which without fail will be right before the boss in any decent game), and you beat it in 2-3 tries after learning from your mistakes.

A tedious experience is one where you're bored, want it to end already, and/or are actively not having fun. FFXIV is currently filled with tedium, not challenge. Having to actually load up market wards and walk to retainers to buy items is time you're not doing something like killing baddies or crafting an awesome item. The current death penalty is an exercise in tedium, since the game is actively preventing you from doing anything fun while you're weakened. However, it's much better than FFXI's death penalty, where a single screw up by anyone in your party--or worse, something beyond your control like someone aggroing a train of mobs before the spawn change or a pop that resists Sleep unexpectedly, as occasionally happened to even the best BLM/RDM because of RNG--could undo hours or days worth of mindless grinding.

Unfortunately, tedium pervaded a lot of FFXI. for instance I never actually enjoyed xp parties, per se, I just tolerated them as a way to get higher levels. While I may have had fun interactions with people and made lasting friends in them, they were nothing I couldn't have had in a context involving multiple quests or dungeons instead. For example, I've made friends in City of Heroes, Guild Wars, and WoW too. The death penalty and the grind aren't what make good social experiences, it's working together as a team, and nothing about the death penalty does that. If anything, it makes people much less patient with other players for perceived mistakes.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, all a death penalty does is make people much more hesitant to actually adventure, which is what we're supposed to do in MMOs, because they're afraid of death. Early in my FFXI career, I was quite hesitant to do high risk content because death meant hours of grind. When I stopped paying attention to the death penalty because I was getting xp incidentally from doing content I actually enjoyed (Campaign), I started doing more content and having more fun, but notice that was after I stopped paying attention to the death penalty. Similarly, in other games like the ones I've mentioned, I have generally been much more willing to try risky, or even reckless things, and more importantly I've ENJOYED myself doing them, because the fun is in the experience of doing things, not being afraid of death.

Bottom line, death penalties do not make games challenging or fun, at least not for those of us who aren't masochistic. A boss fight isn't harder because it takes you a long time to fight it again if you fail, it's hard because the actual fight is difficult. A group isn't inherently more likely to bond if there's a large penalty for mistakes. In fact, they're less likely to take risks and more likely to blow up at anyone who makes a mistake, and we've all had off days.

Lastly, this game is not FFXI-2. I had great years and lots of fun playing FFXI and have made some great friends, but that was in the past and that was not this game. I am tired of the grind in FFXI, and came to FFXIV because I was looking for a modernized experience with an FF spin. If I still liked FFXI's mechanics, I would still be playing FFXI, but like many people I've grown tired of them and want a new experience. SE should target these people, ones who are not content with FFXI, because they are a majority of the market and are an unexploited resource. Innovation and keeping up with the times are how to stay relevant, not trying to recreate old magic by repeating the same trick.

tl:dr DP isn't good, content and people are.