Lets Talk - Red Mage

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I don't think it would be too much of a issue being Acc materia fundamentally share different slots from INT and MND, however I overlooked that MND and INT share the head slot so that might cause fundamental issues long term. So perhaps substituting INT in favor of maybe PIE like other mages might be more beneficial.

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Correct me if I'm just dead wrong here. I would figure that RDM would have a quicker
avg attack rate at say 1.8 - 2.0 delay over Gla/Pld's 2.2 - 2.6 delay. So should the focus
be Dex and Pie for higher Melee and magic ACC. Well at least if it's magic based dmg on WS's
like i'm wanting it to be.

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Originally Posted by Haibel

Correct me if I'm just dead wrong here. I would figure that RDM would have a quicker
avg attack rate at say 1.8 - 2.0 delay over Gla/Pld's 2.2 - 2.6 delay. So should the focus
be Dex and Pie for higher Melee and magic ACC. Well at least if it's magic based dmg on WS's
like i'm wanting it to be.

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It is magic based WS damage, but when they redid the classes they changed it where MND gives magic accuracy, and regulated PIE to mostly pertain to Enfeeblement potency and MP so it would be more like DEX and MND in that instance.

Maybe if SMN is gonna be the enfeeble master, maybe RDM should be master of buffs.

I think the RDM being a real hybrid focusing on quick attacks in the front line with some type spells being worked into the mix and having both MP and TP playing a part in the combos (assuming combos remain the way they are) would be great! Maybe something along the lines of having the WS elemental/enfeeble based and costing TP+MP like what some of you are saying. Some interesting stuff, would be nice to see it brought about. Either way I am in full support of RDM being front line and not back line support and having a sad sad panda on the other side of the screen wanting nothing more than you fight the mob with everyone else.

as long as it's not a stupid healer that dps's i hate when people say i'm a dps'er and don't heal when they have heals. they gets no loves from me, or invites, to anything. warhammer online has made me a huge huge hatter of mages that think they are dps, or nukers when they are made better healers. your money you can play how you want but not in my parties you just can go make your own. rdm i loved but if we got some rdm in front saying i won't heal or i can heal just as good in front line then SE better make it so for sure. you cann't have it both ways i think, you shout for a healer and some stupid dps buffed healer joins you and you can't finish a dungeon till you realize this and when he is out in field though he sure as hell ain't healing in pvp, so witch is it? right whatever you want. lol... again death to all dps healers.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Frankly, there are too few ability slots to actually go into an all out hybrid mage like they did in FFXI, so even on the most conceptual level FFXI or classic RDM in general is plain impossible without making it severely under/over powered or going back into FFXI's classic Backline/Frontline arguements.

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When you say "ability slots", do you mean the Action Bar, or literally how many abilities you can learn on a class? If the latter, I think it's a huge mistake to think anything, much less everything, about 1.0 is going to be the same in 2.0. Especially with regard to how many abilities are available.

A bit of both actually, even with the extended action bar (based off ARR screenshots) there will be only so many abilities/spells we can learn, to me that's a bit too restricting with a versatile class like RDM because some put too much emphasis on giving RDM just a little bit of everything, but it tends to not give enough umph to make it viable or if SE does give it enough umph the versatility will make it too overpowered. However, if they were too just give RDM one or two main focuses, a sub-focus, maybe combine some of the aspects, it won't a half-baked job where half of it's abilities never finding a use.

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Originally Posted by Punainen

Maybe if SMN is gonna be the enfeeble master, maybe RDM should be master of buffs.

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Bite your tongue.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

However, if they were to just give RDM one or two main focuses, a sub-focus, maybe combine some of the aspects, it won't a half-baked job where half of it's abilities never finding a use.

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Agreed. Something like front line attacker (combination of auto-attacks, fencing skills, enspells and attack magic where possible), lesser enfeebling (attached to weapon skills, stacks with what Arcanist/SMN can put on the mob), minor utility (situational off-heal, group-wide buff or cooldown).

I loved RDM solo, wasn't great at it in FFXI. I still loved the job, I didn't love cycling the refresh and haste cycles. That didn't stop me from loving the job when soloing. I know the game is not all about solo, but we all have times that we might like to solo for a bit. I agree RDM would make a nice addition to the game.

One possibility is if they make classes branch into multiple jobs. Have GLA branch into RDM and let it use CNJ and THM abilities. Give it an enhanced Outmaneuver or something for more MP bonus, and maybe give it triple cast or an ability to switch all melee hits into non-elemental magic damage for certain monsters. They could make it into a solo job, as fencing is predominately a duelist's art. Problem with this is I'd prefer RDM to have more of its own class traits. As its own class, they could give it its own spellblade skills for added debuffs and light/dark elements to melee attacks.
Just a few thoughts - no hardcore feelings on the matter. I'd love to see RDM and THF in the game, though.

If anyone speaks of Red Mage in a certain sence, it is Duelle and I, who have followed Red Mage and their exploits since before FFXI, and Duelle has already said most of what I would say.

However, I did take note on PUG/MNK's removal of their elemental damage capabilities, and will make a prediction that we will see them re-used in Red Mage's own combat skills, with their weapon attacks doing lesser damage but with additional effects such as the sword-based defense down that was imposed with Gladiator/Paladin.

Most importantly, however, is that given the system, we'll likely have to implement a new Class for the job, Much like Arcanist and Summoner are linked. This may not happen for quite a while.

But I do believe that the concept of having Red Mage as the front line hybrid is pretty much the dominant request of this class. FFXI did Red Mage a heavy injustice even if it was considered desired.

Bottom line: RDM is going to be a hard class to add just because of how horribly unbalanced it was in XI.

Unless they're planning on having different class specializations, I wouldn't count on seeing a RDM any time soon. Not to mention, I wouldn't expect to see any class that's solely dedicated to buffing or enfeebling; it's just not how classes in modern MMOs work.

Just have one thing to add to this discussion. It was mentioned that RDM should have enfeebles tied to their WS but that has already been done with all the other melee jobs. So I thought perhaps the opposite might be appropriate.

It would be interesting if RDM were to have weaponskills with effects like: 'Deals increased damage if the target is under the effect of Blind.' or 'Inflicts Paralyze if the target is under the effect of Slow.' or 'Guaranteed critical hit if the target is Stunned.'

So that rather then just inflicting status effects with weaponskills like everyone else, the RDM would further capitalize on an enfeebled opponent.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

Just have one thing to add to this discussion. It was mentioned that RDM should have enfeebles tied to their WS but that has already been done with all the other melee jobs. So I thought perhaps the opposite might be appropriate.

It would be interesting if RDM were to have weaponskills with effects like: 'Deals increased damage if the target is under the effect of Blind.' or 'Inflicts Paralyze if the target is under the effect of Slow.' or 'Guaranteed critical hit if the target is Stunned.'

So that rather then just inflicting status effects with weaponskills like everyone else, the RDM would further capitalize on an enfeebled opponent.

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Hahahahahahaha...
No.
People has spoken ...they do not want RDM in FFXIV poll says so, get over it already bring on fancier cool classes/jobs we haven't seen

well no thats wrong the poll doesnt say what jobs people dont want. people want rdm just not the majority.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Hahahahahahaha...
No.
People has spoken ...they do not want RDM in FFXIV poll says so, get over it already bring on fancier cool classes/jobs we haven't seen

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Just like how Warrior, White Mage, Black Mage, Paladin, Summoner, Dragoon, Monk, and Bard are all stunning fancy new jobs we've never seen before...

I am totally OK with red mage not coming out right away. i am also totally OK with red mage being a form of prestige class and needing significant work to unlock. I just want it done right, so we do not have to have rune knight added later, after they ruin red mage and have to completely reintroduce the class as something else, but the way it should have been from the start.

How to make RDM Unique very simple.

Dualcast

Red Mage readies Paralyze + Thundera. Red Mage casts Dark Thundara.

Raptor takes 200 points of damage, raptor is now paralyzed.

Red Mage Readies Poison + Cura. Red Mage casts Dark Cura.

Undead Mage takes 400 points of damage, Undead Mage is now poisoned.

Problem solved, your welcome SE for the idea.

Am I the only one who really liked the XII version of Red Mage?

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/R...l_Fantasy_XII)

For those who don't want to click, it was the discipline which had access to a limited number of Black, White and Time magic, enough to be substantial when using them. They used maces and later greatswords as their weapons, making them viable as front-line DPS as well.

But what I liked most was their unique ability to cast Arcane Magic. It makes up for the holes in their lack of super Black, White and Time magic without making them over-powered as well.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

How to make RDM Unique very simple.

Dualcast

Red Mage readies Paralyze + Thundera. Red Mage casts Dark Thundara.

Raptor takes 200 points of damage, raptor is now paralyzed.

Red Mage Readies Poison + Cura. Red Mage casts Dark Cura.

Undead Mage takes 400 points of damage, Undead Mage is now poisoned.

Problem solved, your welcome SE for the idea.

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This COULD work if RDM was limited to lower-tiered spells than WHM and BLM. MP costs would probably have to be adjusted for RDM, perhaps by some passive trait.

I don't know why this is still up for discussion. The Armoury system really only affords one way to make a Red Mage.

Fencer 30 + CON 15 = Rdm = Melee Mage.

Red Mage = FNC + CON + THM for abilities.

Red Mage will get No Independent Nukes. It will have access to Fire, Thunder, Stone and Aero.

Red Mage will get No Independant Heals. It will have access to Cure, Protect and Stoneskin.

Fencer will Primarily receive WSs and Abilities with few, if any, enhancing spells. Likely to have significant Parry response skills.

Red Mage will likely recieve 2 Elemental WSs, 2 Buffs and Their Ultimate.. Chainspell? x(~.~)x

As far as combos are concerned, we'll likely see things such as
- Reduces/Eliminated casting time of next spell
- casting spells will not break combo
- enhances the damage/healing of next spell cast
- next cast becomes AOE

But, ya never know. Something completely absurd could happen. It wouldn't be the first time Yoshida has pulled one out of left field. Whatever ever RDM turns out to be, let's all just collectively pray it does not suck.


Red Mage is not a back line Job! <~~ Bold for emphasis.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Hahahahahahaha...
No.
People has spoken ...they do not want RDM in FFXIV poll says so, get over it already bring on fancier cool classes/jobs we haven't seen

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Um.. Rdm was the second most request class. Second only to Summoner and only by about 3 percent in the most recent poll.

Red Mage is a refresh and regen pez machine.



(Gets out of thread before the flames!)

.. ehehe

With the current system you can already "almost" make a red mage. Because of that they will have to do what Kiote suggests (force red mage players to use "subjobs" for all of their magical spells). I dont believe they can do it any other way without introducing some modifications to the armory system.

Or, just make Red Mage different then other FF have envisioned them.

I disagree with the few who claim that you could not build a jack-of-all-trades style RDM with the current system. You just have to uses all of the tools provided (and re imagine RDM a bit). The following assumes that skills will be given in ARR in the same number and types as 1.x.
Obviously this is a grossly inaccurate assumption, but lacking any other information, it's a necessary evil.

Supposition
A "jack-of-all-trades" RDM must fulfill 3 rolls: Melee, Black Magic, and White Magic. As an added bonus, let's throw in Buffing and Debuffing as ancillary rolls.

Tools
A class has 15 abilities, 10 traits, and (on average) 5 Combo Effects. Jobs have 5 abilities and (on average) 1 Combo Effect.

Proposal
I believe taking a page from Dancer in FFXI may be a great way to handle this little conflict. Namely, interweaving all three rolls into single actions. Flavor wise, this also would go to demonstrate the inseparable nature of the three rolls in a RDM. Key to this would be Combos. Here is an example of what I am imagining small indicates a combo effect:


Riposte      →      Fire                  →      Red Lotus Blade
(melee WS)            Grants Enfire effect               Restores a small amount of MP
                     Cure                  →      Swift Blade
                     Removes 5 seconds              Removes a enhancing effect
                     from target active cooldowns        from the target


Continuing in this fashion, you could very easily attribute an extremely diverse toolset to a RDM using a relatively small number of abilities and spells. This is just a rough idea that I threw together. Ideally, actually, you would probably give Fencer a smaller number of WSs, and cut them off at 2 length combos. That way, RDM could add 1 WS and 2 Spells to make each combo a 3 length combo, adding a significant chunk of versatility. That still leaves RDM 2 abilities that could be useful support abilities such as: Composure Increase the range of the next combo effect to 5 yalms.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Red Mage is a refresh and regen pez machine.



(Gets out of thread before the flames!)

.. ehehe

With the current system you can already "almost" make a red mage. Because of that they will have to do what Kiote suggests (force red mage players to use "subjobs" for all of their magical spells). I dont believe they can do it any other way without introducing some modifications to the armory system.

Or, just make Red Mage different then other FF have envisioned them.

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Yeah and more considerations to the game, it really does not need another DD class. What it is in need of is a debuff class and a buff class. Arcanists/SMN looks like it's going to fill the debuff void, so sorry to say that if RDM comes along next it's very likely going to be a buffing class.

actually Red Mage had the second lowest vote, dark knight got the lowest.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Yeah and more considerations to the game, it really does not need another DD class.

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I'll amend to something I said earlier: Buffing and debuffing are tertiary class aspects. Building a job around them is shallow.

And who says we don't need another DPS class? Is that one of those "let's be different for the sake of being different" things?

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

actually Red Mage had the second lowest vote, dark knight got the lowest.

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You should look at information that isn't a year old.

The survey you are citing is not just old, but it was heinously generic. Two of the option, one being RDM, listed a single class. The other options offered 3 or more classes and in Summoners case, the class won because it basically said click here if you want any pet class at all.

the reason why rdm would be extremely silly in this game.. using all but the best abilities for whm, blm and melee abilities. we can already do that, use your class. you can do some healing and buffing, you can do some nuking and you can use all of your, and most other class' skills.

every class is rdm >.>

When did they do another poll? to look at one thats not a year old?

And i just though about something. SE COULD give Red Mage water spells, and or Astral and Umbral. That could make it unique. So its not the same as it really was in 11 mind you Bio 3 was awesome.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Yeah and more considerations to the game, it really does not need another DD class. What it is in need of is a debuff class and a buff class. Arcanists/SMN looks like it's going to fill the debuff void, so sorry to say that if RDM comes along next it's very likely going to be a buffing class.

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Classes dedicated to buffing are both boring and useless. Buffs are something every member of the party should be applying to the whole party. It breeds teamwork.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

the reason why rdm would be extremely silly in this game.. using all but the best abilities for whm, blm and melee abilities. we can already do that, use your class. you can do some healing and buffing, you can do some nuking and you can use all of your, and most other class' skills.

every class is rdm >.>

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There is a very big difference between being able to do it very very poorly and being built to do it.

its not very poorly. classes are best solo for a reason. they can do most things pretty well actually. why would they waste time building a job.. thats just a class with a funny hat

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'll amend to something I said earlier: Buffing and debuffing are tertiary class aspects. Building a job around them is shallow.

And who says we don't need another DPS class? Is that one of those "let's be different for the sake of being different" things?

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I would disagree with this. Most other MMOs have such classes that focus on buffs or debuffs then throw in a secondary role generally where the debuffer has some decent DD and the buffer can act as a secondary healer.

And I would say the game really does not have room for another DPS class. As it stands now they are having to retool monk because it hardly fills that role as is. We've got BLM for most everything and when they aren't sufficient we have DRG. MNK will likely fill in the mid-gap here between elemental and physical damage leaving very little room for a DD based Red Mage.

There is however a huge case for making a enhancing Red Mage class. Build the Red Mage class right as an enhancer and they could replace a DD in favor of improving the overall damage output of the reset of the party exceeding what the lost DD would have brought.

Throw in some skills that improve damage output of DD classes with skills that improve the overall survivability of a party and you have a class that fits the FF14 party dynamics pretty well.

There already is a buffer/healer class. It is called conjurer.

When do you see people use Con over a Whm.....

White mage is conjurer's job. It is a buffer/healer too. Didn't think I needed to explain that.

THM + GLD + CONJ = Red Mage magic damage focus*
CNJ + GLD + THM = Red Mage healing focus
GLD + CNJ + THM = Red Mage tank focus
MRD / Archer / Monk + CNJ + THM = Red Mage melee focus

. . .

Unless they make a job class Orb that can require multiple classes and subjob multiple classes the Red Mage class will either be a rehash and silly, or something different then we are used to.


* I go to a lot of events as THM, GLD, CNJ, MNK, ARC
Cure, raise, protect, stoneskin, sentinel, rampart, second wind, featherfoot, and quelling strike.

(combo doesn't work for some things but that's expected when you spread yourself out - but for Ifrit it is a pretty golden combo to end up stopping a team wipe when both white mages and tank are down)

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Originally Posted by Wynn

There already is a buffer/healer class. It is called conjurer.

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They are a primary healer class with buffs centered around survivability. There's another whole side of enhancements that revolve around improving damage output of both melee and spell casters. There is also a void in reactive party damage avoidance as stoneskin has a long cast time and requires extra time to extend it to the party. We're still missing stuff like:

-Haste
-Reflect/Damage shields
-En- spells
-ATK enhancement
-MAG ATK enhancement

All of these would be fine on a new class such as RDM. You can also do things to make them 'less boring' as people seem to fear. Generally this would involve short lived, but very powerful enhancements such as a targetable skills that erases enmity generation for a short period or a skills that enhance the damage of a weaponskill or increase the damage of a specific element for a short time. There are defensive enhancements as well such as one time/short lived reflect/nullification of physical or magic damage. Then they could build all kinds of interesting battles that would require good use of Red Mage specific enhancements as well.

I really just don't see a place for RDM on the frontlines in a MMO. It makes far more sense for them to be built as a good, dynamic enhancer.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

They are a primary healer class with buffs centered around survivability. There's another whole side of enhancements that revolve around improving damage output of both melee and spell casters. There is also a void in reactive party damage avoidance as stoneskin has a long cast time and requires extra time to extend it to the party. Where still missing stuff like:

-Haste
-Reflect/Damage shields
-En- spells
-ATK enhancement
-MAG ATK enhancement

All of these would be fine on a new class such as RDM. You can also do things to make them 'less boring' as people seem to fear. Generally this would involve short lived, but very powerful enhancements such as a targetable skills that erases enmity generation for a short period or a skills that enhance the damage of a weaponskill or increase the damage of a specific element for a short time.

I really just don't see a place for RDM on the frontlines in a MMO. It makes far more sense for them to be built as a good, dynamic enhancer.

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I'm pretty sure SE said they dont want to put haste in the game. But you could make a class out of the other spells - then when you make the job class you'd just have to make chain spell work with their TP skills.

Perhaps all spells become combo'd with an attack with chain spell, so if you cast enfire you can start to remove wait times between attacks and for a short time attack 6 times in two seconds, since buff and debuff spells are notoriously short cast times just making instant cast spells isnt enough for their base class. Would also work with the fencer idea. Would also make them stay up front as the attack wont happen at a distance.


May step on samurai territory though - depending on how they envision him in this game.