Devolved jobs will kill this game.

To the point of sustain changes, didn't both BRD and PLD showcase new group healing actions in the evolved showcase
And DRG got a pseudo invuln.

If there will be more DMG, I doubt it will be healers that get to heal more. And just everyone else getting yelled at for not using their free healing tools correctly.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

To the point of sustain changes, didn't both BRD and PLD showcase new group healing actions in the evolved showcase
And DRG got a pseudo invuln.

If there will be more DMG, I doubt it will be healers that get to heal more. And just everyone else getting yelled at for not using their free healing tools correctly.

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Because frankly speaking, SE doesn't know how to make a support class in the slightest. The reason why healing is so braindead in FF is because of other buttons every other job has, DNC, SMN, BRD, MNK and all tanks, all having party wide heals in their kit in some way is not fundamentally healthy, but its so ingrained in the power fantasy of every job being able to do everything. We can see it in the evolved mode, if they wanted to fix the healing problem, adding MORE support buttons to jobs that are healing is not the way, on top of removing actual supportive buttons that would make the healing problems less apparent, where is Warden's Paean SE?

I'm also concerned about these changes. Beat 'em ups like Street Fighter also have arcade controls (simple combos with few inputs) – and I've never liked those control schemes.
Even games like Wukong didn't appeal to me much, as the controls felt far too monotonous. (It's basically a three-button game.)
And having fewer skills also means that there's less animation expression (Which they seem to counter by offering different animations for the same ability).

However, I wouldn't mind fewer abilities as long as they have a greater impact on group play (especially in easier content) – and require more thoughtful use of abilities.
For example, what if the tank couldn't survive a tankbuster without the invulnerability ability – meaning they'd be reliant on a healer's support skill in most situations?
And what if the tank had to focus more on its position – when it comes to protecting others from harm or was able to reflect and redirect certain attacks?

It's not that such interactions don't already exist, but in normal gameplay we rarely ever see something like this.
In most dungeons, the tank simply holds aggro, the healer heals a bit while spamming 1 or 2 buttons for damage,
and the dps basically mind their own business, except when there's a stack marker.
The boss mechanics are the only thing that differentiates the fights
– and even these hardly force you to do more than dodge attacks and pay attention to the positions of other players.
That's what's boring.

We need more variety in our skill interactions - especially when playing anything else than a dps.
But even with DPS... let's say a Blue Mage can only have either "Freeze" or "Vibration"
— This would mean that both Blue Mages would be dependent on each other and would have to use their abilities one after the other.
It's nothing complicated - but a fun co-op combo-interaction.
And I think normal DPS gameplay would also benefit from such interactions – with the first spell (in this example "freeze") being assigned to the support DPS.

Sure, it's a bit tricky to balance this and offer different combinations depending on the group composition.
And single player content would also be affected by it.
But such changes would make combat significantly more interesting.

And again: I want to see these kinds of interactions in normal gameplay.
The content that 90% of players play almost daily should feel more varied and rewarding.
If only the difficult content feels varied, but is too difficult and/or time-consuming for most players,
then that is not a good state for the game.

Evolved system is good for controller players we already have too many skills as it is

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Well simply put, if they don't rework elements of the game, then healer numbers will keep dropping as they come to understand their role is worthless and they'll either move on to other roles or leave the game entirely. I am saddened that you are probably right, based on their track record. They seem to want to preserve the single player power fantasy at all costs so you will probably be proved correct.

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The thing is it's not a healers job to just heal in 14 its a healers job to do dps while sustaining the party. They aren't going to change the way to game works so people can heal bot for this weird class fantasy thing.

If you want to just heal then other mmo's exist but that's not what this one is. FF14 doesn't need to be a different gamr for people who refuse to play it as intended.

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Originally Posted by Slayer25c

Evolved system is good for controller players we already have too many skills as it is

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Pretending an mmo that can be played on controller has button bloat is crazy imo

Damned if you don’t, damned if you do. If everything is boring to you guys then maybe look within yourself. Maybe you are the one being boring and no matter what the devs do it will never ever make you happy. Why people are even paying their sub if all they do is badmouth the game every single day? Do you get paid to do this?! Lol… The expansion isn’t even out yet by the way…

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Originally Posted by Bubert

Damned if you don’t, damned if you do. If everything is boring to you guys then maybe look within yourself. Maybe you are the one being boring and no matter what the devs do it will never ever make you happy. Why people are even paying their sub if all they do is badmouth the game every single day? Do you get paid to do this?! Lol… The expansion isn’t even out yet by the way…

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I pay my sub because I love savage & ultimate raiding, gpose and roleplaying.

I'm saying Evo looks boring because it's just hit glowing button, anything that was skillful is gone from what they showed and my main was personally gutted in that showcase.

Look at my posts you'll never find a single one with me complaining about the battle system before now because I really do love current jobs. I am usually this games biggest glazer but while change needs to happen I do not think this is the way.

Does that make me love the game less? No.

Also yes the expansion isn't out yet but they showed what they did to get feedback and it's imporant to give it so the expansion doesn't launch like this hopefully

I also find it worrying because it doesn't seem to address the much-criticized problems, but rather seems to further standardize/simplify things.
But we can't yet say how it will ultimately play – and it's important to know what's being added.
We want new abilities on our way to lvl 110 – and they can't keep adding new abilities without first resolving what already feels bloated or somewhat redundant.
And I believe that support for Switch 2 and Steam Deck also plays a role in this.

However, the fact remains, that most players want a good job identity and jobs that complement each other and play well (in regards to input variety and what they do).
And in that regard FF14 has not gone a particular interesting route.
A healer shouldn't feel like their healer kit isn't much needed in normal play.
And it is also a fact that dungeons feel far too similar in terms of gameplay and how they are tackled.
This too must be addressed in order to further break up the monotony.
Having a bigger choice on what we wanna do for progression is a big help however.

Also, that doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to version 8.0 or that I won't find enjoyment in the game.
I play since 6 years - 100% vanilla - and there's still a lot I wanna do.
And it's worth remembering that most players want the best for FF14 – but there will always be differing opinions on how to achieve that. ^^

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

I was open to the prospect of having less buttons in exchange for more complexity and identity. After all other games such as WoW have shown how that can work. What you showed at Fanfest mortified me and looking at the infographs for how they worked mechanically confirmed my initial impression. Despite repeatedly stating to everyones faces that this is not in fact an easy mode you may be shocked to hear that your players do have the eyes and ears and a brain to see that it clearly is easier in almost every single way. All you've done is replace high execution low complexity with low execution low complexity and add a single token class flavor button. There is simply not enough going on to hold any long term players interest. It's actual braindead phone game slop.

If evolved is implemented with a similar design philosophy to what we saw in Fanfest I will tell you with 100% certainty that you will see a new all-time low in players next expansion.

Why? Because it is boring. People are bored. You have been bleeding players for years because your game has become so godawfully painfully boring. You are accelerating this process by making it even more boring. I really don't know why this even needs explaining. When players are bored they will inevitably leave when they get distracted by something that isn't boring. Boredom goes up. Money line goes down. Do you get it yet? How many consecutive years of increased simplification and decreased players does it take for you to finally connect the dots???

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Oh look another person commenting negatively on the changes even though they do 0 high end content.

What do you even know about what's best for the game's battle design?

Its gotta be real easy to be bored when you don't do anything in the game.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Even if you disagree with the OP, the concerns are valid. Just look at how SMN has "changed" since its rework in EW.

Better to give feedback now to get some positive changes rolling in time. Player concerns of this type often appear way before an expansion is released and more often than not it turns out to be true.

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The concerns would only be valid if OP had actually done some content.

Can't really take people seriously when all they do is MSQ and roulettes

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

The concerns would only be valid if OP had actually done some content.

Can't really take people seriously when all they do is MSQ and roulettes

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Okay I do high end content (this is an alt who has still done the tier) and I've done like 6 savage tiers and 2 ultimates on my main (finishing up TOP) can I be concerned about Evo?

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Okay I do high end content (this is an alt who has still done the tier) and I've done like 6 savage tiers and 2 ultimates on my main (finishing up TOP) can I be concerned about Evo?

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Sure, lets go through your initial comment in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Yes! Evo mode looks awful! They have not only taken most a jobs buttons but also any idenity that jobs currently have are being stripped away for this easy mode rework.

Bard lost dots, song timers, its idenity as a buff class, OGCD management and RNG that thing it was known and loved for!

The new songs are useless you just use them in any order to get a small healing effect that will never line up with damage to get a lego to then spend on big attack. Its literally EW SMN with phoenix.

WHM lost misery, assize and became a phys ranged because whats more fun than hitting glare? Hitting instant glare and super glare! No slidecasting or skill.

They nerfed PLD. Dashing to someone for cover is murder and will be a joke in mechanics like BJCC Nisi's or TOP's hello world where a good PLD could save another tank being battered by autos because now they will kiss and everyone will explode. Yay

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It doesnt look like Bard is losing any identity to me.

Song timers are kind of meaningless since you're just going to whatever is optimal. I don't really have much sentiment towards BRD dots. Most of the time its annoying and the dots are so weak, although im hoping the super short DoT duration shown in the dev build was unintentional.

It hasn't lost its identity as a buff class at all. Each song provides a different supportive buff to the party: movement speed, healing, or a shield and we don't know exactly what Radiant Finale does. You can't really say for sure that the song buffs wont line up with anything.

oGCD "management" again doesn't really matter much to me because I've never felt like I was making a choice when I was playing BRD with songs or with its oGCDs. You either do whats optimal or you lose potency.

I don't think its 100% confirmed that WHM lost misery.
They only really showcased certain things with certain jobs and because actions are consolidated its hard to tell what is or isn't in evolved mode anymore. If they did I don't personally mind because misery is a nightmare for balance. Its too much rng on a massive burst of damage.

Who cares about assize? its just an oGCD that you roll on cooldown. ???.

I also don't really care if their damage spell is instant, they already had instant glares on cooldown. SGE has instant shields. AST gets lightspeed. I don't have an ego associated with slide casting. Also there's no telling how much movement will be required for high end content. I've done several ultimates on healers.

I don't see how you think they nerfed PLD at all. A lot of people are unhappy with gap close and cover being connected and I agree. They will hopefully change it before release.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Okay I do high end content (this is an alt who has still done the tier) and I've done like 6 savage tiers and 2 ultimates on my main (finishing up TOP) can I be concerned about Evo?

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By their logic then I've done more content than you so should my opinion that you need to chill out and wait on a lot of this carry some higher weight? I understand that leaving feedback is important, and is encouraged even, but we've still only been shown things that are still in development, and the lengths you are going on EVERY thread is a bit extreme at this point, it's getting to the point of absurdity to where you come off as thinking that yours is the only opinion that seems to matter. You've left more than enough feedback at this point, but at the end of the day it's exactly that, yours. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing with most people who have differing opinions and its truly not helpful or constructive, even some of the trolls on here aren't as hard pressed. WE ALL GET IT, YOU HATE IT! (I truly hate the "I do more than you so my opinion is more important argument" in general but some aspects of how different people engage with content should be noted, all sides of the spectrum should be accounted for.)

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Snip

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Agree on a lot of this, we simply have not been shown enough to form strong opinions on a lot of the changes, just initial ones. I'm hopefully optimistic about a lot of the changes and I trust the guy who did the massive PvP rework to make sure most of the jobs aren't all the same thing and they are balanced well in the end. I'm excited to see how all of this will impact fight design, they've been pretty creative with several the fights of DT, and if the 2 minute synergy window is holding them back then I'm pretty confident things will get interesting when they break from those restraints.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Okay I do high end content (this is an alt who has still done the tier) and I've done like 6 savage tiers and 2 ultimates on my main (finishing up TOP) can I be concerned about Evo?

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if the 6 tiers is just DT and EW then all you know is these homogenized boring jobs

Consolidating some combos isn't simplification, it's just UI. We're talking about actions that were always hit in sequence, in that exact sequence. It's not less complex because it never was.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Oh look another person commenting negatively on the changes even though they do 0 high end content.

What do you even know about what's best for the game's battle design?

Its gotta be real easy to be bored when you don't do anything in the game.

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Why does it matter if the players sharing their opinion on the changes do high end content or not?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it's a minority of the player base that even engages in high end content. So you're saying the majority of players isn't allowed to comment on changes that affect all combat gameplay?

If most players are casuals, and the topic is if the jobs/combat overhaul makes the gameplay more or less enjoyable, why should anyones opinion be dismissed? It's best if all players from casual to hardcore can feel engaged and have fun with the combat system.

I thought they should do a system like the reborn/evolved split, but for raids instead. Like Fun Mode and Raid Mode, or something. Because most of the bad design has been done for the sake of high end raiders. Let them have their 2 minute metas and skills designed around simply using them on cooldown and playing as robotically as possible, and then have a separate mode for people who want to play a fun videogame.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I thought they should do a system like the reborn/evolved split, but for raids instead. Like Fun Mode and Raid Mode, or something. Because most of the bad design has been done for the sake of high end raiders. Let them have their 2 minute metas and skills designed around simply using them on cooldown and playing as robotically as possible, and then have a separate mode for people who want to play a fun videogame.

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...the raiders like the 2min meta buff alignment as much as you do, which is not at all. It is also getting axed entirely, both in Reborn & Evolved Mode, because it actually just clashed with the ability of the devs to design fights.

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Originally Posted by Chyro

Why does it matter if the players sharing their opinion on the changes do high end content or not?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it's a minority of the player base that even engages in high end content. So you're saying the majority of players isn't allowed to comment on changes that affect all combat gameplay?

If most players are casuals, and the topic is if the jobs/combat overhaul makes the gameplay more or less enjoyable, why should anyones opinion be dismissed? It's best if all players from casual to hardcore can feel engaged and have fun with the combat system.

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It matters a lot because you cant understand or appreciate the full scope of the job or battle designs in the game without doing the content that actually puts that knowledge to the test.

If you're only doing roulette and MSQ you are very minimally affected by job changes.

20% of players clearing Savage content is pretty high for an MMORPG. Savage also demands more personal responsibility than most PvE content in other games.

It means 1 in 5 players are doing the content. Its more like 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 when you're amongst people at max level. Sure its a "minority", but its a hell of a lot of players once you start interacting with people.

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

I was open to the prospect of having less buttons in exchange for more complexity and identity. After all other games such as WoW have shown how that can work. What you showed at Fanfest mortified me and looking at the infographs for how they worked mechanically confirmed my initial impression. Despite repeatedly stating to everyones faces that this is not in fact an easy mode you may be shocked to hear that your players do have the eyes and ears and a brain to see that it clearly is easier in almost every single way. All you've done is replace high execution low complexity with low execution low complexity and add a single token class flavor button. There is simply not enough going on to hold any long term players interest. It's actual braindead phone game slop.

If evolved is implemented with a similar design philosophy to what we saw in Fanfest I will tell you with 100% certainty that you will see a new all-time low in players next expansion.

Why? Because it is boring. People are bored. You have been bleeding players for years because your game has become so godawfully painfully boring. You are accelerating this process by making it even more boring. I really don't know why this even needs explaining. When players are bored they will inevitably leave when they get distracted by something that isn't boring. Boredom goes up. Money line goes down. Do you get it yet? How many consecutive years of increased simplification and decreased players does it take for you to finally connect the dots???

I do not blame Hikaru Tamaki. He seems very talented and has an excellent track record. The PvP rework is the best thing to happen to this game in a long time. I am sure if he had full creative control over jobs he would bring this game into a second golden age. I am assuming this is just a result of him working under heavy design restrictions imposed in some misguided attempt to attract some mythical modern audience that is never going to show up. There are going to be 24 jobs in the game. You have more than enough design space to make something for everybody several times over and not just the SMN/VPR mains of the world.

Please have him go back to the drawing board with the freedom to take the concepts further and with far more depth. The new dragoon LB, countering and movement mechanics are great but it is nowhere near enough to make up for the other 90% of gameplay being braindead autocombo chaining. Do not release jobs in that state or this game is actually just over. Contrary to popular belief nobody here wants that. We all love FFXIV and want it to succeed. But it cannot and will not happen if you refuse to budge on this very simple fundamental issue again.

Everything else you announced sounds great and is supposed to make this an expansion an easy win for you. None of that is going to matter if you stop right before the finish line and mess the gameplay up again. Good job design is not optional this go around.

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You must really hate Viper huh?!?! For two years now people have already been playing a version of Evolved Mode which if you paid attention to the demonstration they did, it looks and feels very identical to how Viper currently plays. As for the bit about "braindead", you must not have played games like Black Desert with its flow/absolute system, GW2 with its weapon auto-chains, or the many other MMOs that have a nearly similar style of combat. Those games are not dead or boring...GW2-1.5-2m users, BDO 200k. So yea...if you do not like the new system...you do not have to use it!!! You have the old system...use it!

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

You must really hate Viper huh?!?! For two years now people have already been playing a version of Evolved Mode which if you paid attention to the demonstration they did, it looks and feels very identical to how Viper currently plays. As for the bit about "braindead", you must not have played games like Black Desert with its flow/absolute system, GW2 with its weapon auto-chains, or the many other MMOs that have a nearly similar style of combat. Those games are not dead or boring...GW2-1.5-2m users, BDO 200k. So yea...if you do not like the new system...you do not have to use it!!! You have the old system...use it!

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Gw2 combat is miles apart from evolved ffxiv jobs? What? That games APM is on average much, much higher thanks to perma quickness and alac uptime on top of certain specs having just as many buttons to hit as ffxiv jobs if not more. The closest comparison is some skills on gw2 flipping and that's it, they still have plenty buttons to push for many specs. The reason the gw2 community comes up with low intensity builds is cause so many are simply not accessible as the evolved mode SE is looking to implement. Which I think it's great they do, but gw2 combat to be played well is simply not accessible for the casuals, as we see with the massive dps diff between an open world casual vs the sweaty raiders.

BDO also last I played had a complex combat also, esp given the game revolves around pvp so it's by it's nature just harder to pull off. The pve combat is literally running from pack to pack one shotting things.. Unless they added raids or something the last years, can't say I've checked in much with the game after they initially gutted pvp and killed off my guild in 2018.

I look forward to trying the evolved mode, so do my fc mates for the most part. But people are allowed to be worried when the evolved mode is objectively from a mechanical stand point easier and not only that there is a certain rhythm to be enjoyed hitting separate buttons. Like my reapers shroud being turned into 1 button would feel pretty bad for losing that feel for example. I think the evolved mode will shine if it is easy to grasp but actually has a lot of opportunity to show your skill and adjust to the fight. If it really is just a condensed version of what we have presently with only 1 thing tacked on for flavour it won't be enough to satisfy those players looking to show some skill.

It's why I think them keeping reborn mode was a great idea, every time I start to feel worried over evolved mode I just remember ah it's ok I still have the original mode. And I can just look forward to seeing how evolved plays out.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

PvP felt great owing to the more free form, chaotic nature of the battle flow thanks to player input from both sides though. Pulling that kit into current PvE would be akin to playing Shatter & stick to ice licking the entire match.

I assume 2nd showcase would probably lean more toward encounters than jobs. However, given how they spent a long time trying to sell to players that EW —> DT awesome ‘new encounter design’… if that is their new design, then I’m not optimistic.

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The encounter design in DT has been great. Ask any raider what they think of savage, criterion, or the ex's. Even FT was pretty good the issue was just with getting in.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Gw2 combat is miles apart from evolved ffxiv jobs? What? That games APM is on average much, much higher thanks to perma quickness and alac uptime on top of certain specs having just as many buttons to hit as ffxiv jobs if not more. The closest comparison is some skills on gw2 flipping and that's it, they still have plenty buttons to push for many specs. The reason the gw2 community comes up with low intensity builds is cause so many are simply not accessible as the evolved mode SE is looking to implement. Which I think it's great they do, but gw2 combat to be played well is simply not accessible for the casuals, as we see with the massive dps diff between an open world casual vs the sweaty raiders.

BDO also last I played had a complex combat also, esp given the game revolves around pvp so it's by it's nature just harder to pull off. The pve combat is literally running from pack to pack one shotting things.. Unless they added raids or something the last years, can't say I've checked in much with the game after they initially gutted pvp and killed off my guild in 2018.

I look forward to trying the evolved mode, so do my fc mates for the most part. But people are allowed to be worried when the evolved mode is objectively from a mechanical stand point easier and not only that there is a certain rhythm to be enjoyed hitting separate buttons. Like my reapers shroud being turned into 1 button would feel pretty bad for losing that feel for example. I think the evolved mode will shine if it is easy to grasp but actually has a lot of opportunity to show your skill and adjust to the fight. If it really is just a condensed version of what we have presently with only 1 thing tacked on for flavour it won't be enough to satisfy those players looking to show some skill.

It's why I think them keeping reborn mode was a great idea, every time I start to feel worried over evolved mode I just remember ah it's ok I still have the original mode. And I can just look forward to seeing how evolved plays out.

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Why do I even bother replying to posts like this...why do I torture myself with people on these forums who clearly have reading comprehension issues...
Hey Aelin...Like I sincerely do not know how you equate a person mentioning one example, again one example, not all(this is the key point) to how another MMO combines keys in a very specifically named manner to somehow think they were saying the entire system functions that way! Not even Black Desert uses the combined button system other than the one I mentioned, that is why I gave specific examples. Just amazing...

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

If you polish a turd for 9 months it will still be a turd. That is what they chose to show so it is fair to assume that it is representative of their vision for the final product. They are free to come out and state definitively that the final version will look significantly different.

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so what have been doing with the current combat.....honestly ANYTHING they could do almost would be a improvement. I am hopeful plus having a full kit at lvl 50 would make doing leveling and other duties feel better than dreading going down to 2 button rotation. I am hopeful they will get it right because for the first time they look to be taking risk again.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Why do I even bother replying to posts like this...why do I torture myself with people on these forums who clearly have reading comprehension issues...
Hey Aelin...Like I sincerely do not know how you equate a person mentioning one example, again one example, not all(this is the key point) to how another MMO combines keys in a very specifically named manner to somehow think they were saying the entire system functions that way! Not even Black Desert uses the combined button system other than the one I mentioned, that is why I gave specific examples. Just amazing...

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Your point was to refute evolved mode being simplistic and boring just because the buttons are condensed. And you likened it to GW2 and BDO and mention that those games are not boring. The similarlity between evolved and gw2 auto atk being the whole thing holding your point up, that if they are not boring then evolved also will not be boring. But the GW2 combat is not nearly similar enough for the comparison to validate your point. At all. In fact the GW2 combat is more complex and mechanically demanding than current ffxiv at highest levels esp in pvp. Your one point is flawed. So yeah :)

The part that makes those games not boring to play has next to no crossover with how evolved mode looks to be playing. So you don't get to use them as a defence for evolved mode. You literally said they have a "nearly similar style of combat" and they are not similar, not nearly similar, they are miles apart in gameplay. Work on your own ability to read and write before you talk about others.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

It matters a lot because you cant understand or appreciate the full scope of the job or battle designs in the game without doing the content that actually puts that knowledge to the test.

If you're only doing roulette and MSQ you are very minimally affected by job changes.

20% of players clearing Savage content is pretty high for an MMORPG. Savage also demands more personal responsibility than most PvE content in other games.

It means 1 in 5 players are doing the content. Its more like 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 when you're amongst people at max level. Sure its a "minority", but its a hell of a lot of players once you start interacting with people.

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What knowledge are you talking about? The one you took from someone in Balance discord to "optimise your game plan"? Well guess what, casual players also do that. There is content outside of Savage that makes people interact with their jobs, surprise. It doesn't matter if it's Savage or 24 man or else, you shouldn't think that raiders have higher IQ than people who prefer not to raid for one or the other reason and then dismiss their opinion because they are not elite enough for you.

I have a lot of raider friends who've been playing the game since early HW and done every single type of content in the game, guess what, people are hyped about what was shown in FanFest because it's finally something new.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

It doesnt look like Bard is losing any identity to me.

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Where is my RNG and procs? Why do my songs look like SMN? Where are my damage raid buffs?

They have zero idea what they're doing with the rphys role and it's sad. This one is just going to end up butchered like AST because it's the exact same pattern.

Current PLD even if you want to optimize the FoF window is a completely fixed rotation that you just muscle memory: press atonement, 1, 2, spirit, atonement, atonement, 3, repeat. Double weave oGCDs every 30s, and double weave FoF with imperator every minute. The job has exactly zero skill expression as far as dps is concerned.

Evo PLD showcased in dev panel lost atonement, but gained the counter on sheltron, lost fixed oGCDs in favor of continuation, and Imperator/Blade combo got moved to a gauge with 2 charges so you can actually move it around in rotation for when you lose melee uptime or need healing that the combo provides. It's not a lot, but it's a lot more skill expression than zero.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

What knowledge are you talking about? The one you took from someone in Balance discord to "optimise your game plan"? Well guess what, casual players also do that. There is content outside of Savage that makes people interact with their jobs, surprise. It doesn't matter if it's Savage or 24 man or else, you shouldn't think that raiders have higher IQ than people who prefer not to raid for one or the other reason and then dismiss their opinion because they are not elite enough for you.

I have a lot of raider friends who've been playing the game since early HW and done every single type of content in the game, guess what, people are hyped about what was shown in FanFest because it's finally something new.

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People that you so firmly advocate for remind me of those people that have 0 relevant studies or knowledge, but they keep making those bait videos with "Why you should avoid sunscreens and big pharma doesn't want you to know this."

Please, my dude. I understand that jobs are boring right now in casual because the difficulty comes from the fights. Executing mechanics while dishing out maximum possible damage is not really easy for the average player.

The fact that you avoid doing said content is a choice that you alone take to limit yourself, and there is NOBODY to blame but yourself for it.

The game shifted for "easy" jobs and hard-end content for a very long time now. We shall see, however, if that remains the case with the new shift.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

People that you so firmly advocate for remind me of those people that have 0 relevant studies or knowledge, but they keep making those bait videos with "Why you should avoid sunscreens and big pharma doesn't want you to know this."

Please, my dude. I understand that jobs are boring right now in casual because the difficulty comes from the fights. Executing mechanics while dishing out maximum possible damage is not really easy for the average player.

The fact that you avoid doing said content is a choice that you alone take to limit yourself, and there is NOBODY to blame but yourself for it.

The game shifted for "easy" jobs and hard-end content for a very long time now. We shall see, however, if that remains the case with the new shift.

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I don't think I ever said I avoided content so I'm not sure how it's a "fact" but I guess that just you trying to prove some point? Don't assume things about people you don't know, it doesn't make your argument look good.

Some people don't do harder content not because there are scared of it but because it's a time commitment not everyone can afford.

Where is that difficulty in execution you are talking about when all jobs are designed to fit 2 minute meta and fights fall under that design logic as well?
You have your 2 min window rotation which is normally the same as your opener, and then you have filler until your next 2 min window. Regardless of your job. Wow, much skill.
Without the 2 minute meta, there can be design room for you as an individual player to determine if it's more beneficial for you to hold certain buffs based on your own rotation, fight mechanics, etc. With the 2 minute meta there's strictly a correct answer and it's always exactly the same as everyone else in your group. It's not so much an expression of skill so much as a hard pass/fail, everyone is either doing the inputs perfectly or not.

Nearly everyone I asked about it liked it. I think the majority of people like the direction its going and maybe only hardcore raiders will complain.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

What knowledge are you talking about? The one you took from someone in Balance discord to "optimise your game plan"? Well guess what, casual players also do that. There is content outside of Savage that makes people interact with their jobs, surprise. It doesn't matter if it's Savage or 24 man or else, you shouldn't think that raiders have higher IQ than people who prefer not to raid for one or the other reason and then dismiss their opinion because they are not elite enough for you.

I have a lot of raider friends who've been playing the game since early HW and done every single type of content in the game, guess what, people are hyped about what was shown in FanFest because it's finally something new.

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Oh look, another person that doesn't do high end content.
Its not about IQ, there's just a genuine lack of experience.
Yes, you can still be someone that likes to optimize and min-max your damage even as someone that just does roulettes, but its not the same as experiencing the jobs and going through the process of optimization while doing Savage and Ultimate content.

There's things you won't learn normally outside of those environments and there's plenty that just copying a rotation off of The Balance doesnt teach you.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Where is my RNG and procs? Why do my songs look like SMN? Where are my damage raid buffs?

They have zero idea what they're doing with the rphys role and it's sad. This one is just going to end up butchered like AST because it's the exact same pattern.

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Its kind of funny to say that when Mr. Prime is the one that made AST. We don't have access to the full list of job actions or their tooltips.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Nearly everyone I asked about it liked it. I think the majority of people like the direction its going and maybe only hardcore raiders will complain.

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I think most hardcore raiders also like it.

Doesn't feel right to complain at this point, I'll just say that I hope I like some of the evolved jobs. There are only a few jobs I feel I can play well, and that's mostly a self-inflicted problem of my control scheme. I am a dirty clicker for anything past the first hotbar, and that makes all the melee jobs with a dozen different ogcds awful to play, so I don't play them at all. I think Evolved is probably designed for people like me, but I'm going to keep my expectations low until I try it.

I main Warrior and Summoner (and to a lesser extent Paladin and Dancer) because frankly those are the only jobs I'm good at and I hope at least a couple of them still feel good to me after the changes. I know Reborn mode will still exist, but they've already said it will be weaker and I assume it will be sunset after an expansion or two, so I don't really consider that an option.

I don't think we can fully judge evolved jobs without the encounter design they're meant to work with.

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

I was open to the prospect of having less buttons in exchange for more complexity and identity. After all other games such as WoW have shown how that can work. What you showed at Fanfest mortified me and looking at the infographs for how they worked mechanically confirmed my initial impression. Despite repeatedly stating to everyones faces that this is not in fact an easy mode you may be shocked to hear that your players do have the eyes and ears and a brain to see that it clearly is easier in almost every single way. All you've done is replace high execution low complexity with low execution low complexity and add a single token class flavor button. There is simply not enough going on to hold any long term players interest. It's actual braindead phone game slop.

If evolved is implemented with a similar design philosophy to what we saw in Fanfest I will tell you with 100% certainty that you will see a new all-time low in players next expansion.

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So don't use it on the 21 jobs that will have both as an option. I meant they repeated MULTIPLE TIMES you can play the old way OR evolved. Soooooooo if you don't mind that you will be slightly lower on dps, you can keep havine 3-4 hotbars of buttons to switch through instead of 2. Its not going to kill the game. I'm hyper familiar with my jobs I play as is. I likely will ONLY touch evolved mode on jobs that I don't play often and the 2 new jobs that will only have that option.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I don't think I ever said I avoided content so I'm not sure how it's a "fact" but I guess that just you trying to prove some point? Don't assume things about people you don't know, it doesn't make your argument look good.

Some people don't do harder content not because there are scared of it but because it's a time commitment not everyone can afford.

Where is that difficulty in execution you are talking about when all jobs are designed to fit 2 minute meta and fights fall under that design logic as well?
You have your 2 min window rotation which is normally the same as your opener, and then you have filler until your next 2 min window. Regardless of your job. Wow, much skill.
Without the 2 minute meta, there can be design room for you as an individual player to determine if it's more beneficial for you to hold certain buffs based on your own rotation, fight mechanics, etc. With the 2 minute meta there's strictly a correct answer and it's always exactly the same as everyone else in your group. It's not so much an expression of skill so much as a hard pass/fail, everyone is either doing the inputs perfectly or not.

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I didn't say YOU didn't do the content ( you also didn't, but that's another thing) but.. people you advocate for.

As for time commitment, I don't see it. If I am bored or want to do something fun, I open my PF (which I do often), and pick a fight I want to do from there. It can be from the start, Blind, or MINE. If I had my fill or my time ran out, I would stop. easy peasy.

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Where is that difficulty in execution you are talking about when all jobs are designed to fit 2 minute meta and fights fall under that design logic as well?

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Also, everything is easy while typing, please practice what you preach. It's painfully obvious you hardly did anything beyond the Crystal Towers series.

While the 2-minute meta did limit a lot of creativity, it had its merits. I am happy to see it scrapped because while I think it's ok to be punished for making mistakes, it was literally impossible to recover with the existing design. I do want a job design where you are temporarily punished for mistakes you do but not gutted for the entire fight.