New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

If they want to make braindead dungeons and people like them, that's fine, all I ask is that you give me more options to cap my weekly tomestones in a reasonable time frame that result in me not having to do these dungeons. If your first weekly clear of savage floors each week gave a large amount of bonus tomes like expert roulette, for example, I would never need to step into content that I dislike and the people who like the easy stuff can just keep it.

And yeah, I know about hunt trains, but my processor can't keep up with them usually so I get left behind :(

So I went back to heal Mistwake since it's the only role I hadn't played it yet, and it is p simple, and I only died once during the 1st boss since I didn't react fast enough to hide behind the pillar in time. Then I admit it's difficult to do an interesting dungeon since even when I was tanking, we had 1st timers, and I explained all the mechanics, we still had a few deaths during that time too. Also, I know everyone will get better ilvl gears but I don't want forced ilvl sync'd down unless it's for story themes like The Dead Ends and some trials.

Also, I still say if ppl are bored with EXDR we have other options like current Ex Doom Train or even old Savage/Trials MINE in PF listings will show up often along with Ults if they are dedicated and have enough of time to wait for hours in PF. Finally I even know some ppl have CAR, FT1, and V&C listings along with P44 options for PT is there too.

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Originally Posted by CCheshire

So I went back to heal Mistwake since it's the only role I hadn't played it yet, and it is p simple, and I only died once during the 1st boss since I didn't react fast enough to hide behind the pillar in time. Then I admit it's difficult to do an interesting dungeon since even when I was tanking, we had 1st timers, and I explained all the mechanics, we still had a few deaths during that time too. Also, I know everyone will get better ilvl gears but I don't want forced ilvl sync'd down unless it's for story themes like The Dead Ends and some trials.

Also, I still say if ppl are bored with EXDR we have other options like current Ex Doom Train or even old Savage/Trials MINE in PF listings will show up often along with Ults if they are dedicated and have enough of time to wait for hours in PF. Finally I even know some ppl have CAR, FT1, and V&C listings along with P44 options for PT is there too.

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The last boss basically has 2 mechanics... multi direction orbs firing and a dash.

Also, guess what the second boss has? orbs firing in multiple directions, and a dash.

It's like the designer finished the second boss on Friday. Went on a huge bender, came back Monday and forgot what he did with the second boss and just went, holy molly! I bet we can do something with orbs and dashes for this dungeon.

Funny how OP claims they can "afk the bosses while watching youtube" when the first boss will outright wipe the party almost at the start of the fight if people don't pay attention.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

Funny how OP claims they can "afk the bosses while watching youtube" when the first boss will outright wipe the party almost at the start of the fight if people don't pay attention.

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The first boss is not hard by any stretch of the imagination, but the mechs aren't optional.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

The first boss is not hard by any stretch of the imagination, but the mechs aren't optional.

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Oh definitely, the boss is easypeasy. As is the last boss of Grand Cosmos. But both bosses have mechs that are mandatory to pay attention with in order to avoid a wipe.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

Funny how OP claims they can "afk the bosses while watching youtube" when the first boss will outright wipe the party almost at the start of the fight if people don't pay attention.

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Really? You're going to tell me you can't be primarily watching youtube on a second monitor while barely moving behind a rock?

I can't help but laugh at how it sounds like it's such a dangerous move when you phrase it that way. It probably wasn't your intent. But you have like half an hour to dodge the most delayed and telegraphed AOE in the whole instance.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Really? You're going to tell me you can't be primarily watching youtube on a second monitor while barely moving behind a rock?

I can't help but laugh at how it sounds like it's such a dangerous move when you phrase it that way. It probably wasn't your intent. But you have like half an hour to dodge the most delayed and telegraphed AOE in the whole instance.

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I make it sound like such a dangerous move because it is; you also have plenty of time to dodge the most delayed and telegraphed AOEs with the Lugus fight in Grand Cosmos, but much like the Treno Catoblepas, not paying attention can and will result in creating a situation where a wipe is guaranteed shortly after. The mechanics certainly aren't difficult, complicated, or fast, but they ARE mandatory and require paying a bit more attention than just "dodge the bad". And unlike Lugus who only uses Mortal Flame twice, Treno Catoblepas will continue to break a stalagmite and follow up with Bedeviling Light, so not only do you need to pay attention, but you also need to press your buttons because the fight essentially has a hard enrage, albeit a very lax one.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

I make it sound like such a dangerous move because it is;

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This is really what we've come to huh. Wow... I can't...

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Originally Posted by Astronis

The first boss is not hard by any stretch of the imagination, but the mechs aren't optional.

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First boss did catch me out with the petrification cast first time i did it, because I'm not used to casts meaning much in casual content lol.

Though Its kinda fun how PLD can outright save a ally through cover, makes me feel like cover is actually useful.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

This is really what we've come to huh. Wow... I can't...

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I've seen more than enough wipes to Mortal Flame over the years to know that such mechanics cannot just be "afk and watch youtube"d. And in fact the other day I had a Mistwake run that almost saw a wipe on the first boss because someone didn't pay attention and blasted an extra stalagmite so we had less time to kill the boss, it died halfway into a Bedeviling Light cast that had no stalagmites to hide behind.

Personally I found Mistwake to be on par with Alexandria and Tender Valley when it came to the boss fights, it's Underkeep and Meso Terminal that I find hella boring.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

I've seen more than enough wipes to Mortal Flame over the years to know that such mechanics cannot just be "afk and watch youtube"d. And in fact the other day I had a Mistwake run that almost saw a wipe on the first boss because someone didn't pay attention and blasted an extra stalagmite so we had less time to kill the boss, it died halfway into a Bedeviling Light cast that had no stalagmites to hide behind.

Personally I found Mistwake to be on par with Alexandria and Tender Valley when it came to the boss fights, it's Underkeep and Meso Terminal that I find hella boring.

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Look I'll just say I believe you, but we're just different categories of players for any of our arguments to be useful to each other. Suffice to say you are happy and I'm not. The new dungeon is horrid to me. Story wise, it was fine. Execution is the problem. It's very important to distinguish between the two.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Look I'll just say I believe you, but we're just different categories of players for any of our arguments to be useful to each other. Suffice to say you are happy and I'm not. The new dungeon is horrid to me.

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"different categories of players" indeed. I really can't fathom how you could find Mistwake to be easier or more boring than Meso Terminal.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I am mostly casual but I don't want casual dungeons anywhere near savage or ext difficulty, in fact I just want the game to be more fun for casual players,

I don't think dungeons need to be more difficult they need to be more fun, I think DT while was slightly more difficult was barely anymore fun for the most part, Dungeons need to have a level of forgiveness towards them but they need to be engaging enough that your still actually playing a game.

In summary better job design, more FUN dungeons, not necessarily difficult.

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This is a pretty sane take bravo my hats off to you. indeed fun should always be a factor when playing any videogame as they are meant to entertain an keep you busy this doesn't equate to having a difficulty spike so god damn hard you want to break everything in your vicinity or burst a blood vessel lol
what would make dungeons more fun in my oppinion is for them to return to some old ideas they had where you solved quick puzzles or pulled a switch or level an had multiple differing paths that lead to the same end or just nice little viewing spots. as for fights i would very much like it if they did more things like they did with the azim steppe's second boss and like the Drippy fight from matoya's relic dungeon those ideas keep things interesting and fun an they really should consider adding more things like that hell even some of the blue mage carnival bosses are fun where you find creative ways to cripple or hinder bosses in some way this is what i think they need to do for regular duties/dungeons to spice things up a bit an make it fun

Ima be honest here.
You really can't compare the last boss from Grand Cosmos to the first one of Mistwake.

Mistwake has a very simple "hide behind X" Mechanic we have seen so many times already. Aoe puddle, tank buster and..... what?
Logos mechanic is different as you need to pass a debuff onto furniture. Furniture that can be destroyed by most of his other attacks. Not just an aoe dropped on you, but also his cleaves and such.

I've seen plenty of people die cause they ignored the debuff, too much furniture was destroyed or other things one could do... or rather not do.
But the first Mistwake one is just so... plain.
Arena wide aoe is just the most basic indicator to hide behind something. Not to mention there is very little risk as you only need 1 pillar intact when the last one comes around, not 1 for each.

I don't think anyone could really say the Miswake boss on its own is more fun when it's just less of everything in comparison.

And since we are talking about Grand Cosmos and Mistwake already...
Compare the bosses. No I mean really compare them and what mechanics they had each.
Not the visual clutter but what exactly the mechanics are.

Mistwake is just so much inferior in comparison. As people said the last and second boss have the same mechanics and tbh everything is just "stand here".

And I would bet if Grand Cosmos did not exist and it was released as it is but as lv.100 dungeon we would, I guarantee, see people and Forum posts complaining it was too hard.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

We're back to endwalker difficulty content. Literally the one good thing about DT gameplay was the enhanced pace/mechanics.

I don't know what they are thinking. It's very difficult to not be disappointed all the time now.

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I agree that the dungeon is extremely easy but I've felt this way about every DT dungeon so maybe my opinion doesn't really matter. What I will say is I've been in parties that consistently messed up the first boss then rage quit. I personally don't care about the difficulty of experts I'm only running them for the tomes to get bis.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I agree that the dungeon is extremely easy but I've felt this way about every DT dungeon so maybe my opinion doesn't really matter. What I will say is I've been in parties that consistently messed up the first boss then rage quit. I personally don't care about the difficulty of experts I'm only running them for the tomes to get bis.

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I've only seen one person die on the first boss, and it was because the AOE was so slow they tried to cram in way too many GCDs in before trying to hide. Being a greed lord basically.

I guess, what I'm trying to fix is what you just mentioned, that you don't care, and with reason. The dungeons are a giant nothing burger and an absolute unmemorable chore. Why should anyone care about such a soulless design?

So perhaps... add a soul to it, make it fun, instead of a waste of 20 minutes to just get your tomes. We are just so desensitized to it that quite frankly they could leave the same DREX for the entire 2 years of the expansion and it really wouldn't make a difference to most of us anyways.

Not all DT dungeons were fun, but for the first time in a LONG time #therewasanattempt at least on some of them and now they are going back to not even trying.

And yeah, people complained about them for sure. So as the developer exercising more effort and creativity gets you hate, so no wonder the design is so sterile noone feels anything. At least that way you can minimize criticism. It's a thankless job. But I wish they would power through it. If you try at your job, even if the loudest voices give you hate all the time, you at least know you designed something you put your heart into.

Other than the first boss, it seemed no different than the expert dungeons we've had all expansion. Design is basically the same conceptually, only difference is that we've gotten used to what they've been doing as far as boss design goes.
On the topic of "boring" dungeons with overly simplistic fight design goes, that award goes to Meso Terminal. Easily the biggest snooze-fest of the 7.X expert lineup for me.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Other than the first boss, it seemed no different than the expert dungeons we've had all expansion. Design is basically the same conceptually, only difference is that we've gotten used to what they've been doing as far as boss design goes.
On the topic of "boring" dungeons with overly simplistic fight design goes, that award goes to Meso Terminal. Easily the biggest snooze-fest of the 7.X expert lineup for me.

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Nobody is or has defended Meso terminal here either. I'm just focusing on the new dungeon because I did it recently. I don't know why the poster above made that up and attributed it to me. But yeah, that's the sort of design I'd like the developers to avoid in general.

This was a fun dungeon. Adding my 2C I think it was great. People who want ultra difficulty should maybe que for diffrent content that the game more than provides.

Another copy n paste dungeon with some boss mechs.. but its still tank pull group 1 to 2 (even at bare minimum item lvl) kill ... tank pull group 3 to 4 kill.. kill boss... rinse repeat.. I just want something new in dungeons we wait n get the same ole same ole Dungeons.. The fact at even at minimum item level there is really no chance for death with trash mobs (unless your healer n tank used jump potions and knows nothing about there class).. and having to repeat all these for tomes is boring

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I've only seen one person die on the first boss, and it was because the AOE was so slow they tried to cram in way too many GCDs in before trying to hide. Being a greed lord basically.

I guess, what I'm trying to fix is what you just mentioned, that you don't care, and with reason. The dungeons are a giant nothing burger and an absolute unmemorable chore. Why should anyone care about such a soulless design?

So perhaps... add a soul to it, make it fun, instead of a waste of 20 minutes to just get your tomes. We are just so desensitized to it that quite frankly they could leave the same DREX for the entire 2 years of the expansion and it really wouldn't make a difference to most of us anyways.

Not all DT dungeons were fun, but for the first time in a LONG time #therewasanattempt at least on some of them and now they are going back to not even trying.

And yeah, people complained about them for sure. So as the developer exercising more effort and creativity gets you hate, so no wonder the design is so sterile noone feels anything. At least that way you can minimize criticism. It's a thankless job. But I wish they would power through it. If you try at your job, even if the loudest voices give you hate all the time, you at least know you designed something you put your heart into.

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So which DT dungeons were that good tho? Also, it's always under 15 min for me w/human players and even less if everyone is good at DPS too. I know, since I've timed my mistwake dungeons for fun, since I've been there glam farming hell since release. Finally, I can't think of any DT dungeon that really broke the mold like all of them have some fun and less fun parts since EA.

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Originally Posted by CCheshire

So which DT dungeons were that good tho? Also, it's always under 15 min for me w/human players and even less if everyone is good at DPS too. I know, since I've timed my mistwake dungeons for fun, since I've been there glam farming hell since release. Finally, I can't think of any DT dungeon that really broke the mold like all of them have some fun and less fun parts since EA.

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None of them there that good, they were just slightly better. But you can tell they tried a bit harder in some. In terms of things that had more personality than the rest I.E. that I remember are:

The poison puzzle in tender valley
The carbuncle copy with the shifting stage in yuweyawata
yeah... the head guy in dreamborough, like annoying for sure, but I didn't forget him at least
The Tron motorcycle dude and the final boss who phase shifts in Vanguard were mildly entertaining

keep in mind difficulty isn't per se what I'm after, although yes, like, there has to be a decent risk of dying. It's more things with personality or whimsy.

If I can slide cast a few times to resolve the entire fight and can otherwise just sit there, eh.... maybe that's it actually, I guess I hate the feeling that I can just stand there and kill it the whole time.

Analyzing my own list I guess all those bosses had some level of puzzle solving or movement beyond you're regular slow aoe and dash dodging. The boss models and attacks were more unique graphically speaking as well, they're not monochromatic creatures with orbs like these last ones were.

This last dungeon I was like... Oh look, those are basically my mounts firing orbs with a purple hue. Anyways, those are the factors I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

And yeah, people complained about them for sure. So as the developer exercising more effort and creativity gets you hate, so no wonder the design is so sterile noone feels anything. At least that way you can minimize criticism. It's a thankless job. But I wish they would power through it. If you try at your job, even if the loudest voices give you hate all the time, you at least know you designed something you put your heart into.

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I beg to disagree. It wasn't really creative, it was just the same slop cranked up to obnoxious levels (Luigi's mansion says hello). First I actually lauded the "effort", but looking back now, it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in their chosen direction because they keep confusing difficulty with engagement and fun.

Edit: but that illustrates perfectly the gigantic wedge there is between multiple sides of the playerbase. You want puzzles and more boss gimmicks that I personally find obnoxious or make me glaze over by sheer disinterest, while I do want engaging battle systems that we got slowly deprived over the years. I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design, it's just rote DDR slop. The less of it the better my sanity.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

None of them there that good, they were just slightly better. But you can tell they tried a bit harder in some. In terms of things that had more personality than the rest I.E. that I remember are:

The poison puzzle in tender valley
The carbuncle copy with the shifting stage in yuweyawata
yeah... the head guy in dreamborough, like annoying for sure, but I didn't forget him at least
The Tron motorcycle dude and the final boss who phase shifts in Vanguard were mildly entertaining

keep in mind difficulty isn't per se what I'm after, although yes, like, there has to be a decent risk of dying. It's more things with personality or whimsy.

If I can slide cast a few times to resolve the entire fight and can otherwise just sit there, eh.... maybe that's it actually, I guess I hate the feeling that I can just stand there and kill it the whole time.

Analyzing my own list I guess all those bosses had some level of puzzle solving or movement beyond you're regular slow aoe and dash dodging. The boss models and attacks were more unique graphically speaking as well, they're not monochromatic creatures with orbs like these last ones were.

This last dungeon I was like... Oh look, those are basically my mounts firing orbs with a purple hue. Anyways, those are the factors I suppose.

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I've always thought that the MSQ dungeons and even the Hard Mode before they were removed were a big focus on spectacle than like unique or creative mechanics as it's tied to content that they expected everyone to do once for story reasons which devs will save for current Ex's or like V&C content in the future. There's only so many diff boss types they can create, but at a level that they expected everyone like me being a casual to clear it to more high-end players who are bored with everything but they are still p niche group. Also, I would say that the new trials and new raid series is a better example for creative bosses and mechanics than dungeons, which are just the bread and butter of an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I beg to disagree. It wasn't really creative, it was just the same slop cranked up to obnoxious levels (Luigi's mansion says hello). First I actually lauded the "effort", but looking back now, it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in their chosen direction because they keep confusing difficulty with engagement and fun.

Edit: but that illustrates perfectly the gigantic wedge there is between multiple sides of the playerbase. You want puzzles and more boss gimmicks that I personally find obnoxious or make me glaze over by sheer disinterest, while I do want engaging battle systems that we got slowly deprived over the years. I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design, it's just rote DDR slop. The less of it the better my sanity.

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Correct we disagree, I view it as more creative than what was there in Endwalker/SHB. Let's focus on your last statement though, all tab target MMOs are constrained by that nature, so if you view stage transformations, puzzles and movement as DDR slop and you want less of it, isn't that the entire game? I mean.. it's not going to turn into an FPS like call of duty or even like a different combat design like Elden ring or Oblivion....

So, go into specifics of what does this engaging battle system you want look like? Because by your statements, even if they add the full job depth and complexity we are wanting, the game is going to be DDR in nature (as tab target MMOs are).

And further more, if you don't care about encounter design, like you've stated, then why would it matter what we get to you? Unless you do care, but if you don't want gimmicks or movement, then does it mean you want a training dummy you can hit for 10 minutes? Help me understand you.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

Snip

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With ff14's current design as in order to make dungeons more challenging or exciting they need to spam annoying mechanics, I personally do like more stuff going on rather then endwalker, but I also don't think it's a solution for everyone.

I actually like the idea of going towards something similar to older dungeons but a bit more modernized theirs some things like dzemael darkhold which feel kinda annoying but theirs also possible room to make more fun exploratory dungeons that aren't simple hallways.

Further more I think theirs a massive disconnect between hardcore/casual content, you either get content that's Very easy or content that if you make one mistake you wipe, closest thing is EXT to a "midcore" and I'd argue that It really isn't midcore... What I'd like to see is scaling dungeons, Imagine if dungeons would have more mechanics, less guard rails but be more opt in but offer better rewards? Criterion somewhat "tried" this but it's difficult versions was too much of a jump, not to say it would be bad to keep that sort of challenge for people who wants that.

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)

I mean I have 0 problem with them reusing assets maybe 5 difficulty options is too much but if they're reusing stuff similar to how savage works then it could lead to a lot of replay ability, I think a solution that gives everyone something is better then just alienating people who didn't sign up for difficulty, while it doesn't bore people who want something more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

With ff14's current design as in order to make dungeons more challenging or exciting they need to spam annoying mechanics, I personally do like more stuff going on rather then endwalker, but I also don't think it's a solution for everyone.

I actually like the idea of going towards something similar to older dungeons but a bit more modernized theirs some things like dzemael darkhold which feel kinda annoying but theirs also possible room to make more fun exploratory dungeons that aren't simple hallways.

Further more I think theirs a massive disconnect between hardcore/casual content, you either get content that's Very easy or content that if you make one mistake you wipe, closest thing is EXT to a "midcore" and I'd argue that It really isn't midcore... What I'd like to see is scaling dungeons, Imagine if dungeons would have more mechanics, less guard rails but be more opt in but offer better rewards? Criterion somewhat "tried" this but it's difficult versions was too much of a jump, not to say it would be bad to keep that sort of challenge for people who wants that.

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)

I mean I have 0 problem with them reusing assets maybe 5 difficulty options is too much but if they're reusing stuff similar to how savage works then it could lead to a lot of replay ability, I think a solution that gives everyone something is better then just alienating people who didn't sign up for difficulty, while it doesn't bore people who want something more interesting.

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People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

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I mean.... current dungeons are accomodating players of low skill level.
You can barely go any lower without putting people to sleep.

When every dungeon is
"use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad", "use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad", "use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad"
and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

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Yes because SE thinks us saying we want scaling difficulty must mean we just want savage and ext.

Like dont get me wrong I find savage and ext fun sometimes but I want more content that isn't just turn off your brain nor do i wanna always have to watch a guide or trial and error for 6 hours.

stuff like this always reminds me of that one time I fell asleep for like 2mins during a dungeon boss in shadowbringers and I didn't get hit by any mechanics lmao. I'm just built different.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)
.

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its cause of sunk cost fallacy that they don't do (hard mode) dungeons anymore i believe they figured it was eating up too much resources and development time just to re-use a dungeon but have different bosses and mechanics. but they seem to be doing it with variant/criterion dungeons at the very least which is something but i just wish it wasn't just a one off thing i wish they did variant/criterion style for all player dungeons as that makes them at least more enjoyable to revisit from time to time.

as for difficulty levels i honestly think they just need to make a more difficult deep dungeon style content for those who want the extra challenge i feel like those who really want to be pushed to the limits of their jobs would appreciate something they can work towards alot more then just trying to carry others an be bored in the casual normal difficulty roulette dungeons etc.
and truthfully i dont think midcore players mind either way they know there is challenge out there if they want something a bit more difficult an they don't need to feel like they have to trample on the casuals content to earn that etc.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Correct we disagree, I view it as more creative than what was there in Endwalker/SHB. Let's focus on your last statement though, all tab target MMOs are constrained by that nature, so if you view stage transformations, puzzles and movement as DDR slop and you want less of it, isn't that the entire game? I mean.. it's not going to turn into an FPS like call of duty or even like a different combat design like Elden ring or Oblivion....

So, go into specifics of what does this engaging battle system you want look like? Because by your statements, even if they add the full job depth and complexity we are wanting, the game is going to be DDR in nature (as tab target MMOs are).

And further more, if you don't care about encounter design, like you've stated, then why would it matter what we get to you? Unless you do care, but if you don't want gimmicks or movement, then does it mean you want a training dummy you can hit for 10 minutes? Help me understand you.

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Who's even talking about a FPS?

Judging by your inability to picture anything else than the encounters, and your mention of training dummies, you've not played before ShB I assume? There has always been a manner of DDR with telegraphs in XIV, and even moreso scripted enemies and fights. It just happened not to be 99% of the game, and it was a lot less obnoxious as well as giving us more options, solutions and agency than today. Just look at a middle ground dungeon design from the late HW or SB era: do you seriously think they're harder than EW dungeons? They're mechanically a lot less involved. Running them today is boring af, yet people like citing EW as the major culprit of boredom in dungeons.

All in all I've done this countless times on these forums and it's gotten painfully clear over time that trying to explain what pve was like to people that haven't played through the game before ShB is incredibly hard because they have no point of reference nor personal experience like we do. But yeah, very, very short and sloppy tldr: tank and mob positioning, actual healing considerations, personal and party resource scarcity (which has always been a hallmark of all FF titles btw, and most RPGs in general), better job identity and more engaging class mechanics, less guitar hero, boss and fight mechanics more focused on organic threat levels than standing in the right spot or running all around like frogs in a blender. And if we go back enough in time, dungeons that are more than simple hallways, but where side rooms would actually matter.

Note: "I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design" as in "it doesn't interest me, but it sure as hell can get in the way of my enjoyment of the content".

I said exactly the same thing. The actual multiplayer dungeon experience just needs to be completely decoupled from the MSQ at this point. You cannot design the long term content in your subscription based MMO around the hypothetical MSQ andy that subs bi-yearly and plays exclusively with trusts. It is simply not sustainable. Look at how much the WoW dungeon format offers to players in contrast to XIV. I would never expect small indie company SE to put out something comparable but the current output is not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Who's even talking about a FPS?

Judging by your inability to picture anything else than the encounters, and your mention of training dummies, you've not played before ShB I assume? There has always been a manner of DDR with telegraphs in XIV, and even moreso scripted enemies and fights. It just happened not to be 99% of the game, and it was a lot less obnoxious as well as giving us more options, solutions and agency than today. Just look at a middle ground dungeon design from the late HW or SB era: do you seriously think they're harder than EW dungeons? They're mechanically a lot less involved. Running them today is boring af, yet people like citing EW as the major culprit of boredom in dungeons.

All in all I've done this countless times on these forums and it's gotten painfully clear over time that trying to explain what pve was like to people that haven't played through the game before ShB is incredibly hard because they have no point of reference nor personal experience like we do. But yeah, very, very short and sloppy tldr: tank and mob positioning, actual healing considerations, personal and party resource scarcity (which has always been a hallmark of all FF titles btw, and most RPGs in general), better job identity and more engaging class mechanics, less guitar hero, boss and fight mechanics more focused on organic threat levels than standing in the right spot or running all around like frogs in a blender. And if we go back enough in time, dungeons that are more than simple hallways, but where side rooms would actually matter.

Note: "I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design" as in "it doesn't interest me, but it sure as hell can get in the way of my enjoyment of the content".

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I did. I played the game when it flopped in 2010, 2013, Early HW, Came back for SB when I got into raiding a lot more and on since. So all in all since the games launch with a year or so break... and let me tell you, I still disagree. You talk like you have more experience than me but I likely have more than you. Not that it matters because preference is preference but since we're throwing length of play out there like it some sort of cred unless you played the game before Sep 2010 you don't have anything on me in that regard.

To me SB was the sweet spot. And I'm sorry to inform you that harder gimmicky dungeons were part of the formula, along with wiping being a possibility.

Lets got back to late ARR days, where the only things to do were grinding for the relic and running Expert dungeons. In those the challenge was to pull all the mobs and kill the before they killed all the tanks... heck I even carried MP potions just so I could cram in an extra flare.

People ruined this because they started getting toxic as hell when players couldn't keep up, hence the walls. Not to mention the barrage of insults and abandonment for a new player finishing the MSQ wanting to watch the CS.

The early stages of raiding with bahamut were interesting, but people weren't as organized, discord wasn't a huge thing and it well it went by a lot slower. Optimization wasn't what its become today, that much is certain.

If we were to perform those raids todays with full youtube guides, completely min maxxed gear and discord they wouldn't be as fun as you remember them, if you played that far back.

Endless dialogue quests that got so boring that they had to redo the ARR-HW dialogue slog not too long ago.

I'm sorry but given the player levels today that game would be super boring.

I will refrain from commenting on raiding in HW because that was during my break but everything my friends filled me in simply said a lot of it was broken which is what SB sought to correct.

SB was the funnest expansion imo, not only because they were introducing new types of content (ultimate, deep dungeons) but also because dungeon design was gimmicky, and dangerous. Which is what I'm advicating for.

However, and this is what made it the best expansion... On top of gimmicky dungeons and trials the job identity was there.

You could tell who mained what. You weren't going to come in as a BLM, or most jobs, into a raid just because you wanted to check it out and be able to perform fine just because you more or less know the class basics.

There was a lot more nuance (jank) that you just had to know about each job that anyone could tell if you weren't playing your actual job.

I'm still right in saying that dungeon novelty and gimmicks are important and they totally were a part of the game since it's inception.

What? you don't remember the damage check and the walls closing in on you in amdapor keep hard? It was a much more real damage check and people did fail it. gimmick.

That why nothing you say to me makes sense. Especially when you talk about the past like it wasn't full of the stuff I'm asking for and somehow disagreeing with me.

Anyways, the focus of this thread is on asking for more interesting dungeons unlike what we got. I'm not going to go into job depth because its outside the scope, but it was those two things combined, that made the game better in the past. So I don't know what you're ranting on about at this point.

If you happen to notice my forum join date coinciding with the SHB period. Thats because that's when the game started going the wrong direction. So I had to complain about it here.

It's always been DDR. Except in 1.0. My guess is that you don't want to go into specifics of this vision you have because you're too scared to open it up to scrutiny and criticism just like you did to me or you're too lazy. Either way. it's easy to sit back and just trash talk. How about you invalidate my requests by providing a better idea the devs can read about and use to improve the game?

That's what is actually useful of this place, and why I am being open about what I want.

Well then I stand corrected. You just sounded like a ShB+ player, that's about it. I've had that conversation so many times with those that eventually I was bound to stumble on a vet that didn't share my opinion.

I specifically mentioned SB dungeons as a comparison to EW's. I have no recollection of a single SB dungeon that had anything remotely "gimmicky" or "dangerous". Literally nothing (unlike ARR dungeons ironically, and some would wipe you hard if you didn't respect specific mechanics).

But you'll certainly get no notes from me on SB job design or how ShB destroyed everything I liked in the game.

I have plenty of posts made explaining it in excruciating details and yes I'm too lazy to rewrite whole essays again and again. If what I quoted above on what the game used to do right isn't enough for you, then I'm sorry. If most of the battle system concerns are out of the picture because this thread is exclusively about dungeon design and encounters, then what's left is essentially what ARR and HW dungeons did right: less stupid DDR, and more threat levels or mechanics actually talking to said battle system: damage stacks on enemies attached to their mechanics, juggling threat levels, etc. Like I'm sorry but if you think encounters are the same between Coils, Hard ARR dungeons, and Luigi's Mansion, I don't know what to tell you?

Nothing was done with their vaunted "exciting new encounter design" they promised for 7.2 to bring anything actually fun or exciting. They just tried cranking up difficulty and mechanical pace in storymode dungeons and called it a day. And we see how divisive this has been so far. Their direction is just completely out of touch.

My biggest problem is how thematically boring and samey it is. I swear every new dungeon added is just some dark space with neon lights and purple glowing enemies with some electrope nonsense.

Meanwhile look at heavensward and you have two new dungeons every 3 months with one being an asset flip of an old dungeon. Even though some called it lazy, every patch had a fresh expert roulette and I miss that.

I would say a lot of character/gimmick started getting stripped from dungeons in around 3.2/3.3 to be honest... Sure we had some good bosses through up until 3.5, but they were just that... some good bosses. Wasn't entirely a baseline.

Same thing with Stormblood, so I wouldn't really synonymize it with dangerous... Once again, we had some dangerous bosses, but they were far and few between, e.g., Mist Dragon from The Burn, and this design was hardly the baseline for dungeon difficulty of that expansion.

I feel that sometimes people get far too caught up on the few bosses which were actually of that caliber, that it just completely skews perception of what was the baseline difficulty/danger.

Would also argue that in many cases where people would want to argue 'danger', is that it was more of a result of things not inherent to the dungeon, and not because the dungeon itself was actually dangerous.. e.g., availability of resources/guides compared to now, jobs then versus now, player skill then versus now.

Another one of these posts… honestly at this point we might as well have a megathread for difficulty takes. It really feels like there’s no winning here. When dungeons are harder, people complain that ‘less experienced players’ slow everything down. When they’re easier, people complain they’re boring. No matter what they do you are unhappy.

Personally, I genuinely don’t get the obsession with making dungeons harder when most people run them maybe a few times a week for 15–20 minutes. If this was something you grind for hours every day, sure, I’d understand wanting more challenge or engagement but this isn’t high‑end content.

Wanting more interesting layouts or less predictable trash? I'm with you on that. But saying stuff like ‘I don’t know what they’re thinking, it’s hard not to be disappointed all the time’ just feels like looking for reasons to be upset, especially when DT has had some of the best encounter design in the game.

If you want challenge there's plenty. Quantum, Chaotic, Forked Tower, New savage coming next reset, Ultimates, whatever. Not every piece of content needs to be a DDR‑speed reaction test. Dungeons are fine being what they are.

That's just how I feel, though.

Yes, and Stb was out 2017 so it's been 9 years later since then I'd just say to move on if anyone is hoping for SE to get a time machine to take us all back then now in 2026 at the end of DT expansion.

It's either that players accept that new dungeons are made to be easier for the current player base since it's still for MSQ, the basic content out each patch, or decide to start doing more new high-end content if they want more challenging fights. No one is thinking, oh Stb was the best time of the game except for a few players who are probably going to quit once they realize it's now 2026 and we're not going backwards for content design.