Remove the wall between the monster groups before each boss so we can pull all

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

In the nicest way possible if people are arguing against allowing people to pull more (which I also agree won’t fix the problem) then do you really expect them to be able to engage with more complex trash mechanics without being overwhelmed?

Like especially from the tanks perspective whose job doesn’t change whether they pull 2 mobs or 200 mobs. Would pulling 4 packs be overwhelming but kiting and interupts or crowd control and other things like bringing mobs to specific areas or whatever idea not be overwhelming?

Like pulling 4 packs instead of 2 is literally the simplest way to increase “engagement”, if that’s overwhelming why wouldn’t any else be

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It really depends on the implementation of it as anything... Under certain circumstances it may be more overwhelming than pulling 2x the monsters, under other circumstances it may not, simply because the content at that point is asking for 2 entirely separate things. It's really a subjective thing, as much as you may want to try and argue otherwise, really.

Then it also really depends on where the player is overwhelmed more than anything... Are they overwhelmed mechanically (Unlikely), are they overwhelmed as a result of DPS not using their AoE? Are they overwhelmed because the tank decided that he was going to go outside of the LoS for the healer (Happens a lot in AV), are they overwhelmed because of a gear factor?

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Originally Posted by Zered

Dungeons are a repetitive chore and this would help fix that.

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Got no opinion to one direction or another, but this change would not turn dungeons' repeatitive chore-ness into anything.
Maybe super sprout healer might have spook when legend dancer zooms ahead of tank... but thats it

They should just add the Trust system to everything and give a dumbed down easy mode option on top and all those people who don't want to engage with combat at all can stay in the trust system and the rest of us can actually play properly

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It really depends on the implementation of it as anything... Under certain circumstances it may be more overwhelming than pulling 2x the monsters, under other circumstances it may not, simply because the content at that point is asking for 2 entirely separate things. It's really a subjective thing, as much as you may want to try and argue otherwise, really.

Then it also really depends on where the player is overwhelmed more than anything... Are they overwhelmed mechanically (Unlikely), are they overwhelmed as a result of DPS not using their AoE? Are they overwhelmed because the tank decided that he was going to go outside of the LoS for the healer (Happens a lot in AV), are they overwhelmed because of a gear factor?

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If it’s so subjective that it depends on the player then the entire argument falls apart anyway because people here are saying the more mobs idea would overwhelm them but if someone suggested something else then there would be someone else coming in saying that would overwhelm them

So your argument reads like “don’t do what would overwhelm me do what would overwhelm someone else” which is the root of why discussions about content design never go anywhere in this game, because you can always find someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change.

Edit just realised you aren’t the person i was originally quoting

In our current environment I cannot see much good arising from removing the boundaries without some massive conceptual shift away from its current attempt to be big, flash and spike our adrenaline with the 'run rabbit run' mechanics overlap. It'd be on point though - a change that initially people would welcome as 'more spicy' but then once the adrenaline wears off it just becomes engaging in the same manner as watching the needle on the fuel tank drop perilously close to empty. It will keep you awake, but does it entertain?
Sometimes I wonder what XIV would have been like had Square stuck with 1.0's combat system and worked on refining the responsiveness of it (I think that was the primary issue for many players). Could it have had greater staying power over the course of several expansions?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If it’s so subjective that it depends on the player then the entire argument falls apart anyway because people here are saying the more mobs idea would overwhelm them but if someone suggested something else then there would be someone else coming in saying that would overwhelm them

So your argument reads like “don’t do what would overwhelm me do what would overwhelm someone else” which is the root of why discussions about content design never go anywhere in this game, because you can always find someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change.

Edit just realised you aren’t the person i was originally quoting

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I don't really know how you can question subjectivity of it, and then subsequently post about "But you will always find someone who is overwhelmed with a particular change" to be honest. But setting this aside, it really is subjective as ultimately they will be commanding different skills and abilities to be successful.

Personally, I don't really care which avenue they go down, I just see the general avenue of bigger pulls being the least impactful, it's not really commanding a significantly greater deal of effort for someone who is already using their kit in the first place, or for someone who understands the kit for that matter. Like, I don't really go into Stone Vigil, Doma Castle or Mt Gulg with much of a mentality or expectation change from any other dungeon that forces me at a wall all the time.

Personally, don't find it overwhelming either way, I just question the case of how effective this change of removing the wall would actually be if the goal less repetitive chore... It's not going to make the dungeons any less linear, it's only going to exacerbate the problem, since then dungeons are designed around the premise of 'no walls'.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I can see why so many didn't care in the slightest over the lack of normal Forked Tower, and I have to wonder why Yoshi-P cares at all about making a normal mode for the next tower when they've already decided casuals are just a waste of budget and a "mistake" that needed correcting.

Any talk from Yoshi-P about "content for everyone" or wanting casuals back will be treated like the PR BS that it is going forward now that I know how he really feels about that.

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This is just classical conflation that everyone who does casual content is exactly YOUR level of casual

For example my circle of friends is mostly people who used to do savage but dropped it due to be disillusioned with encounter and job design and dropped back to exclusively casual content. So we are casuals.

We disliked forked because of its entry system not necessarily because of its difficulty and we wanted a “normal” tower to keep the zone cycling properly

But that doesn’t mean we didn’t also believe that overall the change in difficulty of casual content from EW to DT was a net positive to our experience: plus people i know who still do high end content didn’t like forked either.

You are taking a complaint you have, seeing other people have the same complaint then assuming they agree with you on everything. Nobody liked forked, thay doesn’t mean everyone who didn’t like it agrees on everything else

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I don't really know how you can question subjectivity of it, and then subsequently post about "But you will always find someone who is overwhelmed with a particular change" to be honest. But setting this aside, it really is subjective as ultimately they will be commanding different skills and abilities to be successful.

Personally, I don't really care which avenue they go down, I just see the general avenue of bigger pulls being the least impactful, it's not really commanding a significantly greater deal of effort for someone who is already using their kit in the first place, or for someone who understands the kit for that matter. Like, I don't really go into Stone Vigil, Doma Castle or Mt Gulg with much of a mentality or expectation change from any other dungeon that forces me at a wall all the time.

Personally, don't find it overwhelming either way, I just question the case of how effective this change of removing the wall would actually be if the goal less repetitive chore... It's not going to make the dungeons any less linear, it's only going to exacerbate the problem, since then dungeons are designed around the premise of 'no walls'.

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I’m not questioning the subjectivity, I’m agreeing with it, that’s my point. There will always be someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change they make, yet a lot of people’s argument here seems to be “no don’t remove walls do x other thing” which just reads as “don’t do what overwhelms me do what overwhelms others”

I don’t even think this change would help, I’m just saying that argument premise is flawed that x change would overwhelm people and shouldn’t be implemented and they should implement y change instead when there is just as much evidence y would overwhelm a different subset of people

Wall-to-wall dungeon design is the most horrible thing to ever happen to this game.

Dungeon pulls used to be nuanced. Focus the tank's target, be mindful of your AOE so you don't take aggro, have the NIN help manage enmity, and pulling everything wasn't about pulling everything just for the sake of it, rather pulling everything so you could lock them out the boss arena.

We had the option to play methodically, fast, kill everything for XP, ignore enemies for a faster clear... but then Wall-to-wall took over and every dungeon now is just sprinting like headless chickens and spamming AOE mindlessly like an enraged ape.

It's so boring, it's so horrible, and if there was ONE thing I could change from this game, I'd remove wall-to-wall dungeon design outright. You ran too far ahead of your healer? Enemies get buffed and you get one shot. The DPS thinks they're cute and pulled ahead of everyone? One-shot. I'd gut AOE abilities and bring back enmity management.

Fuck wall-to-wall gameplay.

https://gifdb.com/images/high/tinker...3arh0qvffi.gif

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Wall-to-wall dungeon design is the most horrible thing to ever happen to this game.

Dungeon pulls used to be nuanced. Focus the tank's target, be mindful of your AOE so you don't take aggro, have the NIN help manage enmity, and pulling everything wasn't about pulling everything just for the sake of it, rather pulling everything so you could lock them out the boss arena.

We had the option to play methodically, fast, kill everything for XP, ignore enemies for a faster clear... but then Wall-to-wall took over and every dungeon now is just sprinting like headless chickens and spamming AOE mindlessly like an enraged ape.

It's so boring, it's so horrible, and if there was ONE thing I could change from this game, I'd remove wall-to-wall dungeon design outright. You ran too far ahead of your healer? Enemies get buffed and you get one shot. The DPS thinks they're cute and pulled ahead of everyone? One-shot. I'd gut AOE abilities and bring back enmity management.

Fuck wall-to-wall gameplay.

https://gifdb.com/images/high/tinker...3arh0qvffi.gif

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That’s got near nothing to do with wall to wall, that’s the devs completely stripping nuance out of the support’s kit’s

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Originally Posted by SamuraiMiqo

I 100% agree with this. There was a thread a few months back titled 'Here We Go Again' about people who were having issues with the raised difficulty. What happened? People stormed in, mostly from what I can tell raiders, saying things like 'git gud' and 'bye, we won't miss you'. And yes, I admit that I greatly dislike the direction the dungeons have gone too, its too fast and too chaotic for some, and not everyone has an instant reaction to attacks (I STILL have issues with Second Walk boss attacks, one i flat out DON'T UNDERSTAND and no matter what I do, can't comprehend it)

People say 'you're level 100, do whats expected of you' 'Use trusts then', or 'Stop playing, you're the reason the game sucks to begin with' Why? WHY do we have to push each other down instead of raising them up to help? What happened to civil conversations and sharing ideas and tactics? All i've seen on the forums for the past few months is just constant complaining or outright fighting. It should never come down to an 'us vs them' mentality. Ever. We're all players of a game, of a franchise we enjoy, yes?

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There were many users who went out of their way to explain mechanics piece by piece, with pictures and videos, so long as the struggling users asked (even without them asking sometimes) and many others, me included, were up to literally running the content with them even if it was just to prevent them from getting stuck there for too long. For every player saying horrible things, there was another willing to help.
What I struggle to understand is that some people refuse this help and sometimes can even be rude about it and throw odd accusations (what does it matter if I run ultimates or sit and gpose all day in my free time? Does my choice of content make me less genuine, somehow?)... many of us want to help you, some may have more tact when saying it than others, but it's not possible to help those who don't want to be helped.

Maybe it is because of the way I played when I was a sprout, I had people that helped and guided me along the way as needed, but I don't see an issue with accepting help and advice and seeking to improve or at least get the bare minimum the game demands of me done so I can continue. I genuinely want to know what stops them from doing what would benefit them if what they want is to continue the story...

Many would bring up that it makes them feel worthless, lesser-than, etc. guys, you can hire mercs if free cooperation is not your jam. If you don't want people's "pity" (it's not pity, we genuinely want to help you out T-T it's a cooperative game and you getting through the content benefits everyone involved) you can just pay them if it makes you feel like there's an equivalent exchange going on there. There's mercs for anything under the sun, you just have to open a PF for it.

OP you joined the forums in Sep 2025
Way back in 2.0 that is how it was, a good team could clear a dugreons fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScBJynlISY&t=7s

The problem was it got to the point where if you couldn't keep up it was faster to kick someone slow then just running the content.
It became very toxic towards any player that couldn't keep up.
People would voke kick people just because they didn't go fast enough.
Voke kick on a wipe.
leave because it was to slow
leave because of a wipe/death
If you didn't have the right AOE Job you would get kicked.

The difference between a paced run and pulled to dugeon boss was 3-4 mins, time lost because people couldn't keep up 1-2 mins because of a wipe.

It kind of seems like you just dislike dungeons as a concept.

I'd like to see this and make each pack actually scary to the group
That way there's actual decision making in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Underscore

It kind of seems like you just dislike dungeons as a concept.

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Dungeons can be great, but not when they're piss easy like they are these days

Did briefly bring this up in one of the other tank related threads but I think one underlying issue is in Tank Mastery's passive 20% mitigation.

With damage somewhat tuned with it in mind, a party could easily crumble in seconds if the Tank dies, which puts more pressure on the tank/healer to not mess up, so they'd have to make roulette content a little more lax there. I think it's become harder to survive tankbusters in normal raids with non-tanks because of that too.

It's also part of what's made Tanks the go-to for soloing in Occult Crescent imo.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Did briefly bring this up in one of the other tank related threads but I think one underlying issue is in Tank Mastery's passive 20% mitigation.

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20% is a massive help. But it is not something you can't play without. We have seen many no tank clears, even in ultimates. But, that challenge is made for healers who are at the absolute TOP. Not for normal people who have anxiety in dungeons, yes yes.

Now, for the hot take:

I know this may seem harsh, and I get everyone who doesn't believe in their skill. But I think the best way to solve this for themselfs is to practice, adapt, overcome.

Practice with trust, if you don't have somebody to guide you. Many people were whining that trust in old dungeons are wasted resource, but I always believed it is the opportunity to have a great self learning tool in this game. Learn the basics. Then hop with people. Don't be scared of failure. If somebody is toxic, just ignore them, mute them, block them. You are learning. Failure is the thing that pushes us forward. I know many people who were scared to tank/heal dungeons in the past and nowadays its their main for savage.

Yes, this may seem a bit toxic, I assure I don't mean it like that. But it is the best thing for yourself to hone your skill and have a broader way to enjoy content. I know it is easy to say "git gut", but you are doing it for yourself. I remember first time tanking in WOW and how stresfull it was and that game is know for much harder tanking and more toxic playerbase. But I learned only thru failures. Everybody did.

And it is not like we suddently want you to main tank ultimate. Dungeons are awesome start!

Never in my life I tell to myself "I'm good enough. I don't want to get any better.". I don't want to stuck in one work place for half of my life. I want to experience new more interesting things, get to know new people. Same with video games. But I'm not saying to make your hobby - FFXIV in this instance, a real life job. Do whatever you want. All power to you. This is just a hot take to use tools that are in this game to have more fun in the future. :)

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

The things is this is a video game. There is meant to be challenges and obstacles to overcome by nature. If you are too anxious for big pulls in dungeons I'm sorry but visual novels might be more up your alley.

I'm tired of the game needing to be lobotomised because people on the forums are old, disabled to the point where they must have no hands and be blind or have anxiety. At the end of the day mmos are meant to be exciting and have gameplay not be your roleplay dress up game.

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Thank you for dropping the mask :o

Somehow it's always forgotten about that this is a MMORPG. You know, roleplaying being in the actual name of the genre? There's a reason endgame is glamour dress-up and I'd argue the social aspect of the game is just as important to keep a MMO alive than its combat.

As for the OP, I don't think this community is mature enough to handle such a change. I've seen people be impatient about a player or two dying and finishing the dungeon...a minute or two later than their desired time. People want to finish a dungeon as fast as possible, like they don't even want to be there in the first place (it's why they stopped doing alt rooms and it's only straight hallways, or why stopping to read the lore tidbits in a dungeon can be considered rude). What will most likely happen is the entire room will be pulled, players will die and start flaming each other, vote kick or whatever. Frankly I still find it funny when Aurum's first room is entirely pulled, but it'd be aggravating in the long run.

I’ll never get why people bring up side rooms as an example of people refusing to deviate off the main path when the only stuff that was ever in side rooms (pink gear) was so bad it wasn’t even worth it when ARR was current content

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ll never get why people bring up side rooms as an example of people refusing to deviate off the main path when the only stuff that was ever in side rooms (pink gear) was so bad it wasn’t even worth it when ARR was current content

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There were also Housing mats offered in a few dungeons that went completely ignored, because at the end of the day people simply want to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. Even if we were offered decent stuff in the alt rooms, it wouldn't change that players simply don't want to waste time in an instance they don't care about. They simply want their tomes from the roulette and then leave.

Ye. Alt rooms were completly ignored by players just short after game release. It was wall to wall basically since the beginning. And you can't do even more interesting stuff with it. A optional boss that drops tome bonus + some glam? Nah. Random player in quee just wants to end it now. See ya. Anything that needs to be in roulette needs to have a set path.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

There were also Housing mats offered in a few dungeons that went completely ignored, because at the end of the day people simply want to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. Even if we were offered decent stuff in the alt rooms, it wouldn't change that players simply don't want to waste time in an instance they don't care about. They simply want their tomes from the roulette and then leave.

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Yeah, to be fair the Fine Wax was pretty good as well... It had a solid rate, dropped as a stack of 2, and way back prior to rework each would go from between around 18-30K, which for 1 extra room on a level 28 dungeon was crazy... Like when they were offered, they were quite lucrative (Especially seeing as the game didn't throw nearly half as much Gil as what it currently does now). People simply ignored it in favor of maybe 20-45 seconds shaved off the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

OP you joined the forums in Sep 2025
Way back in 2.0 that is how it was, a good team could clear a dugreons fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScBJynlISY&t=7s

The problem was it got to the point where if you couldn't keep up it was faster to kick someone slow then just running the content.
It became very toxic towards any player that couldn't keep up.
People would voke kick people just because they didn't go fast enough.
Voke kick on a wipe.
leave because it was to slow
leave because of a wipe/death
If you didn't have the right AOE Job you would get kicked.

The difference between a paced run and pulled to dugeon boss was 3-4 mins, time lost because people couldn't keep up 1-2 mins because of a wipe.

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Could that not be fixed by disabling kick vote and leaving for the first 15 minutes on roulette and also adding also blocking people from queueing again for 30 minutes after leaving or something? Basically make finishing the dungeon the better choice.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

OP you joined the forums in Sep 2025
Way back in 2.0 that is how it was, a good team could clear a dugreons fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScBJynlISY&t=7s

The problem was it got to the point where if you couldn't keep up it was faster to kick someone slow then just running the content.
It became very toxic towards any player that couldn't keep up.
People would voke kick people just because they didn't go fast enough.
Voke kick on a wipe.
leave because it was to slow
leave because of a wipe/death
If you didn't have the right AOE Job you would get kicked.

The difference between a paced run and pulled to dugeon boss was 3-4 mins, time lost because people couldn't keep up 1-2 mins because of a wipe.

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Us fossils remember what a terrible idea this was. Let's not make the same mistakes. Decreasing the HP of the enemies would probably offset the need for some bull-headed tank to not blame everything on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They used to be like that, and there was a massive problem with it. Back in ARR and Heavensward, I would enter ARR dungeons like Snowcloak. A tank would typically pull right up to the boss. They would typically wipe because this was not realistic to heal back then. So the tank would immediately exit in shame without a word. This happened so many times I couldn't count it.

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That's not why they quit lol. They quit because they realized their team couldn't keep up and preferred a better team.

What is the problem if a player chooses to leave anyway.

If someone leaves because they feel the party isn’t up to their standards they are the one taking the penalty. Now you can say “oh but 30 minutes is worse than 5 minutes longer with a worse party” but it’s ultimately their decision

People seem way too caught on trying to make it so nobody ever leaves so nobody else can consider it a slight on them

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

[Snip]

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I can't speak for how well or badly you play the game, as I've never played with you. However, if you're in need of help and not averse to meeting me halfway in OCE, I'd be happy to go through a few duties together and see if there is anything we can figure out to make your experience easier. You may not believe it, but sometimes it's your HUD/Controls working against you or there's something small that you may have missed but that changes everything (happened to me). If you're willing to give it a try, you just have to ask. Genuinely, I'm down for it.

There's no shame in dying or messing up mechanics. Considering the amount of duties in this game, the chances of getting thrown into a duty you've only done once and won't even remember the first thing about is very high. If someone gives you grief over dying or messing something up, you should report their behavior as it goes against the terms of conduct to be a jerk over someone's performance.


The tone you use also matters a lot. One could argue these people do not deserve kindness if they treated you badly first, but it only feeds the loop of aggressiveness towards each other. There's also the fact that when people are trying to communicate mid-fight they will be a lot more direct and to the point since they're trying not to interrupt their rotation so badly, so I personally always give everyone the benefit of the doubt unless they literally start calling names or something; at which point it is reportable if I can be bothered to fill the form for it. Most of the time I just mute them because the Support Desk form counts as a medieval torture method to me.

My experience in-game and in the forums are near opposites. You may have been very unlucky, but if the bad experiences are consistent then it is worth looking inwards and seeing if there is something you can change in the way you interact with the game and other users that may make a difference. There will always be bad actors at the end of the day, but that doesn't mean you should push everyone away just in case.

I understand where you come from, but as an example you consistently come off as bitter, defeatist or sometimes selfish and often pop up in threads just to announce you dislike a feature when in theory, if you ignore most content anyways, it wouldn't affect you in any way. You're entitled to your opinion and expressing it however you like of course, but going out of your way to be so negative or inflammatory (putting all other players in the sack of "casuals only exist to be a cancer and hardcores feel compelled to be the barber's blade") about many topics will inevitably push players away who would have otherwise liked to help you or be your friend. Again, you're free to say and act how you like, so feel free to ignore this entire paragraph if you found it useless.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I'm tired of trying though, and would rather just keep to myself as much as possible if it means I don't have to deal with bad actors anymore while I avoid being a blight myself on other people's queues. If I'm considered a problem on the forums too though, not much I can do about that but start being quiet.

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Welp, at least I tried! If you change your mind, you can reach out to me whenever you want.

No thanks to full corridor pulls, not every tank has up to date gear and not everyone has enough brain to play their job.
Two pack pulls will work with any combination of gear/skill and no wipes, 4 packs would not.

Tank's are such a mix of skill it's insane, everything from "Don't have to do anything" to "Use everything and barely make it" because they haven't job unlocked actions or don't know to use them to so little confidence its one pack at a time... at level 100.

How you can get to level 100 and be bad at tanking or have tank anxiety is beyond me, even if a person boosts that's just to 80.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

There were also Housing mats offered in a few dungeons that went completely ignored, because at the end of the day people simply want to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. Even if we were offered decent stuff in the alt rooms, it wouldn't change that players simply don't want to waste time in an instance they don't care about. They simply want their tomes from the roulette and then leave.

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I talked about it on another identical thread but the main sticking point of this friction has always been that one group of players (levelers) would love going to side rooms if just for the additional xp because they were running the dungeon at their level, or for the first time. The other group of players (rouletters) would want to be done as fast as possible because they were exclusively only after the roulette rewards that only dropped from completion.

Those groups aren't mutually exclusive as long as they get their rewards in the additional rooms, for instance roulettes could have adjusted the amount of final rewards to the amount of mobs killed or rooms cleared, yet the devs never bothered and preferred to turn everything into hallways. It's funny in a way I went back into Kugane castle in explorer mode recently and while the dungeon looks great and nailed the aesthetic right, you can clearly notice how artificial everything looks and how it's not a livable place. It's just a hallway that happens to have eastern castle skin on cardboard murals, that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Thank you for dropping the mask :o

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No mask I am just sick of this game losing any challenge because some people will always find things too hard and not everyone can be accommodated. Video games have challenges by nature and if you want to single pull we already have an NPC mode. Removing walls will just make things interesting for everyone else who wants to not drift off in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

No mask I am just sick of this game losing any challenge because some people will always find things too hard and not everyone can be accommodated. Video games have challenges by nature and if you want to single pull we already have an NPC mode. Removing walls will just make things interesting for everyone else who wants to not drift off in dungeons

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Ah yes. Ye olde "You are inconveniencing me so I will insult you until you go play on your own."
Wait why is nobody online why are queues so long i don't understand?

I don't see the point in removing the temporary walls between groups. Once the walls are removed you limit the player's choice to either pulling everything or dealing with constant criticism from someone in the group. Both have the potential to slow down the entire run; in the former case you risk introducing avoidable wipes (which are a complete waste of time), and in the latter case people are spending more time arguing with each other in chat and less time dealing damage to the mobs.

The reality is this entire urge to pull huge packs is (in FFXIV) more of an overrated gimmick and less about real efficiency. Currently, the difference between pulling one pack at a time and two packs to the wall in these dungeons is minuscule. I occasionally pull one pack at a time whenever someone requests it (usually if it's someones first time in that dungeon or a healer who just wants a relaxed run), and doing single-pulls adds less than five minutes to the entire dungeon. The amount of time a run takes has much more to do with how well the various players in your group are performing at their roles, and much less to do with how many packs are being pulled at once.

Yet, there is a point where pulling too many packs can lead to wipes, and then you're adding to the duration of the run rather than making it shorter (especially if DPS can't annihilate those packs before the tank runs out of mitigation tricks). More mobs can also result in more AOEs to avoid, leading to more melee downtime (either because of dodging in and out or dying), plus the healer is spending more time healing and less time dealing damage.

I don't understand the "challenge" arguments. Trash in dungeons is not even remotely challenging and adding more trash to a single pull isn't going to change that. You either have enough healing to overcome the damage and enough DPS to kill the mobs before the tank runs out of mitigation buffs, or you don't. For the DPS in the party, how is killing a pack of twenty mobs any more challenging than killing a pack of ten - we're still pressing the same buttons in either case. Dodging AOEs or making sure you're behind a barrier at specific moments is the extent of "challenging" content you'll see in trash mobs these days. When's the last time anyone has assigned priority marks to mobs in a pull? Tactics and real challenges, like expecting a party of cats to focus on a specific mob before it one-shots the tank, have gone the way of the dodo along with everyone's attention span and ability to problem solve.

I'll be the guy complaining about how dreadfully boring healer is to play again, lol. It sucks ass and I hate that casual content now has to = braindead. I genuinely think tanks that are willing to do the full pull before the first boss in Mt. Gulg are fun to play with. I also appreciated Aurum Vale's earliest iterations back when I was a sprout tank because it helped me learn how to section off large mobs and understand positioning and limitations.

Pulling wall-to-wall was never that egregious and as somebody who wasted way too much time in this game, the friction people are claiming that happened is way overblown. Yes there would be people who would whine and try kicking others when they got aggravated by somebody not keeping up, but it was honestly the rarer case.

When I was new to healer and they still had Cleric Stance, I just straight-up would let people die all the time to test out how far I could go with stance-dancing. I would be transparent that I was trying to learn. As a tank I would take the extra dungeon paths to get more EXP with mild grumbling at the worst. 11 years in this game of playing like an on-and-off dumbass and I have never been kicked from a dungeon.

If a healer or tank couldn't handle large pulls it's more than likely the other players would slow down to accommodate. And this was when playing the two roles actually required any semblance of consciousness in a dungeon. These elitist boogeymen people are talking about were not the majority by a long shot. I mean, hell, even back then the actual majority of White Mages were too scared to Holy and people just dealt with it.

(Also why are we just like, lying about math when it comes to efficiency? In old dungeons you could literally shave off 3-5 minutes of a 15-minute dungeon if you played fast and well. That is not a small percentage. You can look at completion time in your chat box to compare.)

Anyway the gated pulls being 1-2 pack of mobs at the most is one of the biggest things I dislike in current dungeon design. It's genuinely mind-numbing to the point it's aggravating, particularly because there's also zero friction with jobs now, too. I don't understand why people are so scared about this idea when today you have a billion instant heals and tanks are basically unkillable in normal content.

I know this MMO has gathered people who are now unfamiliar with the slightest amount of gameplay friction since SHB, but casual content should allow people to play in different ways, even if they seem "subtle" on paper. I promise it is ok to not play at max efficiency. It's ok to risk dying in order to learn. Most people who are going to bitch at you in-game are not the majority and are also probably considered annoying by others. But people should also be able to wall-to-wall if they want to without boring, arbitrary gating.

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Originally Posted by FeyFavilla

Ah yes. Ye olde "You are inconveniencing me so I will insult you until you go play on your own."
Wait why is nobody online why are queues so long i don't understand?

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Dumbing things down for everyone is actively alienating players who want to enjoy the combat and be creative with their job and kits, something that removing walls in dungeons would do.

If the gameplay is too hard then trust is right there. I don't understand the issue here.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Dumbing things down for everyone is actively alienating players who want to enjoy the combat and be creative with their job and kits, something that removing walls in dungeons would do.

If the gameplay is too hard then trust is right there. I don't understand the issue here.

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The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

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Originally Posted by FeyFavilla

The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

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This is such an exaggeration of what would happen that I am honestly wondering if you have played before they dumbed down dungeons this much. They neutered dungeons for Trusts; which is the same reason they neutered everything else: To get money from players who want to play a single-player RPG lol.

It was way more chill than WoW ever was even when this mild friction existed. If anything there is more toxicity now because the gap between casual content and endgame content is so huge these days that there is zero build-up or bridging between them. And ultimately it’s because of that why queues are dead. Casual content is incredibly boring and any real endgame stuff is so far away from it in difficulty that casual players are too afraid to do anything else currently (and much more rightfully so). Not because of some toxic boogeyman waiting to get mad at them for dying in a dungeon. The original design philosophy for FFXIV dungeons was still extremely forgiving compared to WoW, so those sort of extreme personality types seldom existed in them in the first place.

Removing their arbitrary walls wouldn’t make the dungeons more difficult, but the option would make them more engaging (which is a difference regardless of how small it seems) for some people—me included. As it is now making everyone play boring content in a forever time-stagnant way that requires zero conversation makes fewer people actually bother to queue up in an MMO; almost nobody I know runs roulettes anymore for this reason, and the vast majority of them are casual players.

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Originally Posted by FeyFavilla

The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

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The argument is basically: "let's keep the dungeons so mind numbingly boring and deprive any choice or freedom to play how people want so everyone is too lethargic and jaded to care enough to be toxic"
No thanks. What kind of worthless gameplay experience even is this? Who is it entertaining? Does anyone actually enjoy walking a bit then spamming aoe 1-2-3, rinse and repeat every single day?
How about people grow a spine and some skin that isn't as thin as 1-ply tissue and using the mute button instead of acting like wiping or having someone whine is the end of the world.

Okay let's engage with the idea, say we remove all walls.
Now what?
Is the instance any less boring? It's the same dungeon, except now it is even more forgettable than before because you don't ever have to stop until the boss.
New players doing the MSQ will be left running behind not getting a taste of the experience at all. Big quit moment for fresh blood right here.

And then, when you have a bunch of boring instances that you can barrel through the complaint will be that there is no substance to the dungeon roulette anymore. They will have to cut the rewards for it for less time investment as well, leaving even less people to queue up. This suggestion over short or long would lead to a decline in people participating. That, on low pop realms, would be a death sentence to players trying to just do their dailies. This is not a solution for the dungeons boring yall out of your mind.
But, judging by the attitude in this thread, I fear I might be speaking to the exact type of people who do not respect folks wanting to take it slow to begin with so I'll leave it at this, then. I hope it does get implemented and yall have to deal with the consequences like the people who screamed for balance until all jobs were mushed down into the same grey pile.

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Originally Posted by FeyFavilla

Okay let's engage with the idea, say we remove all walls.
Now what?
Is the instance any less boring? It's the same dungeon, except now it is even more forgettable than before because you don't ever have to stop until the boss.
New players doing the MSQ will be left running behind not getting a taste of the experience at all. Big quit moment for fresh blood right here.

And then, when you have a bunch of boring instances that you can barrel through the complaint will be that there is no substance to the dungeon roulette anymore. They will have to cut the rewards for it for less time investment as well, leaving even less people to queue up. This suggestion over short or long would lead to a decline in people participating. That, on low pop realms, would be a death sentence to players trying to just do their dailies. This is not a solution for the dungeons boring yall out of your mind.
But, judging by the attitude in this thread, I fear I might be speaking to the exact type of people who do not respect folks wanting to take it slow to begin with so I'll leave it at this, then. I hope it does get implemented and yall have to deal with the consequences like the people who screamed for balance until all jobs were mushed down into the same grey pile.

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This is such an incredibly bad faith take--and for somebody who complains about people not reading their posts, you certainly don't read others'. Also there is literally no substance in the dungeon roulette as it is; the suggestion here at least gives people an option to do it in a way that might be even a little more fun for them, because, rather than what you're claiming, larger pulls (which means more incoming damage and sometimes more AoEs to dodge) do require a little more thought. And considering that we have been able to do dungeons without healers easily since EW, having this option might even make them more efficient to bring along again! Wow!

But I'll take this as an answer for "yes I literally have no idea how the game successfully functioned with a near identical community before SHB and I will continue to close my eyes when it comes to any regard for that."