Please do something about dps survavibility in OC

they could introduce some kind of personal dmg check for some fates... one that is the same for all roles. would be kinda fun to watch xD

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

I like how you go into a multi paragraph rant on tanks after you find the slimmest possible connection to bring tanks into it. Saying tanks can tank more damage is a balance issue was hilarious though. Legit going to show people your post.

But, had you actually read my post instead of looking for a thread to pull that says "I talk tank now, go me," DPS survivability isn't an issue by way of phantom jobs or not getting hit. Not confident in avoiding the bad? There's several phantom jobs that will cover this. It's why we can switch between them freely before an encounter. More confident with a fate? Put on Sam, cannon and go to town. Partially confident? Monk had damage and survivability just for you.

It's not a content issue. It's a player issue.

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Another case "do you play the game?". There are some boss fates you can do solo on melee because bloodbath (but i found sam safer still) and other are impossible without healing - JUST BECAUSE OF AOE FROM BOSSES YOU CANT DODGE.

From the looks of it you are typing from RMT gil farming bot character. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Another case "do you play the game?". There are some boss fates you can do solo on melee because bloodbath (but i found sam safer still) and other are impossible without healing - JUST BECAUSE OF AOE FROM BOSSES YOU CANT DODGE.

From the looks of it you are typing from RMT gil farming bot character. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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I've maxed all phantom jobs as primary dps. Try re-reading what I wrote. I can personally guarentee that any fate can be handled either without a support phantom job, or easily with one. Monk in particular can handle every single fate thanks to the heal and MIT it gives.

And, you know. The whole party thing.

Thanks for helping me to show that the issue isn't the content, but the players approach to it. You're wrong, friend. Sorry.

And no RWT here, mister ad hominem. I simply enjoy making money and collecting housing. Speaking of ToS breaking things, I'm sorry I've incurred your WRATH.

So I haven't been in OC in a bit but I did hit it heavily for a while there. I usually play sage. I've noticed that I was often the only healer in the party and my presence was definitely a benefit. I could see the dps if they wanted to level something that wasn't chemist or knight would suffer from the unavoidable damage. So I can see where general issue potions like we had in past field content to mitigate that aspect would help.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

You're wrong, friend. Sorry.

And no RWT here, mister ad hominem. I simply enjoy making money and collecting housing. Speaking of ToS breaking things, I'm sorry I've incurred your WRATH.

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I am not wrong in both cases. As for your rmt i don't care/i will just blacklist but YOU as individual will never convince anyone that you would waste so much real cash on subbing just to keep houses.

You leveled fc just to grind and sell gil from subs.

You are. Name a fate and a dps and I'll tell you which phantom jobs you can do it on. I'll wait. (psst, oracle will be my answer every time because it's true. It has an insanely good combo of self heal and utility and handles everything for free)

And I own 3 service accounts. $40/m isn't too bad for me. Please stop the baseless tos breaking accusations. This is your last warning.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

You are. Name a fate and a dps and I'll tell you which phantom jobs you can do it on.

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Which is a compltely pointless comment, because n=1. Your experience says absolutely nothing about what others experience. Its like saying: you can beat an ultimate because i can.

And thats why i brought in tanks earlier, because why would you care about the phantom job when you can just survive almost everything?

Also, my argument why oracle is invalid as answer, is because you havent unlocked it yet as newer player to the content. There is no guaranteed way for you to obtain it in any reasonable timespan.

But that its a player issue is confirmed, ignorance of casuals existing is a player issue.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Which is a compltely pointless comment, because n=1. Your experience says absolutely nothing about what others experience. Its like saying: you can beat an ultimate because i can.

And thats why i brought in tanks earlier, because why would you care about the phantom job when you can just survive almost everything?

Also, my argument why oracle is invalid as answer, is because you havent unlocked it yet as newer player to the content. There is no guaranteed way for you to obtain it in any reasonable timespan.

But that its a player issue is confirmed, ignorance of casuals existing is a player issue.

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My experience is irrelevant because it's not also your experience? Are you joking? Lmao. No, my experience is proof that the premise of the thread is false and that it's possible to take a dps into any fate and to survive said fate. A newbie joining OC for the first time is irrelevant.

Player ignorance is the issue. Player ignorance is a player issue, not an OC issue. Players, like the abusive person I responded to earlier, who fail to rise above that ignorance and to rise to a challenge, in this case not dying as a DPS, is a player issue. Not an OC issue.

Try again. Ya'll are just wrong here. "Challenge" or "hard" isn't a fucking design problem. You get punished for not playing properly or for not approaching a problem with the mindset that you're going to overcome it. Saying the game needs to change around you (the general you) because you fail to meet a challenge is absurd, defeatist, and fundamentally sad.

Being unable to do something is fine. This game isn't for everyone. Saying something isn't possible because you can't personally do it is obviously flawed. Aergrael, don't bring that energy to me.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

My experience is irrelevant because it's not also your experience? Are you joking? Lmao. No, my experience is proof that the premise of the thread is false and that it's possible to take a dps into any fate and to survive said fate.

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Thats not proof, thats still n=1... n=1 is never proof unless the sample size is only 1. And yes, im aware that there are more players that can do that. But stating 'you can' because 'i can' is the worst case to use that example on. The actual sample size does indicate that the mechanics can be handled by the experienced player.

But content is normaly designed for certain players, and a certain reputation gets attached to it. OC is deemed casual content from the start, so you can expect a lot of casual players. Players that struggle already in normal trials. Its a huge enough portion of the playerbase. Yet if you ignore those players 'because inferior'... thats the worst possible way to think about it. Because content marketed toward them appears to be not well balanced towards them.

Players play games for fun. That is the key reason they play. And yet, plenty of players get anoyed because the fights cause dps's to repeatedly die over and over again. That indicates there is an issue regarding fun in the content. And the reason: they get to hear the content is targeted for them, only to face it actualy isnt. And if they then say its not fun, it simply is not fun.

No matter how many arguments you throw at it, you cant change the 'its not fun' part. Instead, by stating 'git gud' you are making the situation worse. You can argue as much as you want about it. You cant stop them thinking that way. You can at most cause those players to quit the game. Which in the long term is actualy the worst possible outcome. Because if that happens too much, you will lose the game you like. You still rely on the less skilled players to make money. Because otherwise they could just grind the content themselve.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Thats not proof, thats still n=1... n=1 is never proof unless the sample size is only 1. And yes, im aware that there are more players that can do that. But stating 'you can' because 'i can' is the worst case to use that example on. The actual sample size does indicate that the mechanics can be handled by the experienced player.

But content is normaly designed for certain players, and a certain reputation gets attached to it. OC is deemed casual content from the start, so you can expect a lot of casual players. Players that struggle already in normal trials. Its a huge enough portion of the playerbase. Yet if you ignore those players 'because inferior'... thats the worst possible way to think about it. Because content marketed toward them appears to be not well balanced towards them.

Players play games for fun. That is the key reason they play. And yet, plenty of players get anoyed because the fights cause dps's to repeatedly die over and over again. That indicates there is an issue regarding fun in the content. And the reason: they get to hear the content is targeted for them, only to face it actualy isnt. And if they then say its not fun, it simply is not fun.

No matter how many arguments you throw at it, you cant change the 'its not fun' part. Instead, by stating 'git gud' you are making the situation worse. You can argue as much as you want about it. You cant stop them thinking that way. You can at most cause those players to quit the game. Which in the long term is actualy the worst possible outcome. Because if that happens too much, you will lose the game you like. You still rely on the less skilled players to make money. Because otherwise they could just grind the content themselve.

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Re-read the op. Nothing you're saying matters in the context of the thread. New players do not matter. Your assumed target group for the design does not matter. Your random tangent about "fun" does not matter. I'm responding to the premise of the thread. Refresh yourself on it. You just wasted your time typing 4 paragraphs of nothing.

Let me know if you need assistance doing so.

Why are you guys arguing about FATEs anyway? The only things with any challenge are the critical engagements.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

Re-read the op.

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I did:
its not fun - checked
tanks are the cheese method - checked
it failed doing what it was supposed to - completely checked
and the comments after it indicate that OC is flawed in its design

Thats all that is needed to summarize they messed up this casual content massively.

And saying fun isnt important in a game... thats a bald move.

People already complain all the jobs play the same anyway so who cares?

There are CE’s that cannot be outhealed by jobs that have limited self healing, berserker is one, idol is another

The problem with OC is twofold, firstly OC doesn’t reward being in a party, there is no intrinsic benefit to it for someone who doesn’t need the survivability because OC lacks overworld danger like eureka does in areas the player regularly goes to and split party benefits of say half farming half cluster farming are neutered in OC because they nuked gold farming when they added it to pots

Secondly is the design of phantom jobs themselves. Of the people who have reported ANY achievement within OC sub 10% of them 10 phantom jobs maxed (the closest achievement to having all 12 maxed). So only a tiny fraction of players really have the freedom to just swap jobs on the fly. Sure you can just say “well if you want to level a non defensive job in a fight you are not confident in then join a party” but again see above and what I’m going to type below. The other problem with phantom jobs is that phantom jobs ignore all damage penalties and benefits from the player except for special attribute. The big ones here are tank mastery and maim and mend. When you remove the influence of those traits tanks do more damage than the physical range, far more than healers and about equal to damage casters because phantom actions have such massive potency because the true potency of a phantom action is about 6* what it lists even with no special attribute (so if you use starfall with 15 special attribute that’s almost a 7000 potency attack or roughly equal to an average DPS’s entire burst)

So since you always want to be levelling phantom jobs unless you are part of the tiny fraction of maxed players then your choices are either beg for a party which has no intrinsic benefit to the support roles that would be joining the party or play solo and play perfectly knowing there is simply some CE’s where perfect is still death………..or play a tank, do as much damage as a DPS anyway, have 406028510 times the survivability even solo and level whatever job you want when you want

The balance of OC is so ridiculously tilted in tanks favour that while it certainly is possible to play DPS you are just effectively handicapping yourself for no benefit because you likely don’t even do more damage than the tank anyway because of how potency works in OC

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Thats not proof, thats still n=1... n=1 is never proof unless the sample size is only 1. And yes, im aware that there are more players that can do that. But stating 'you can' because 'i can' is the worst case to use that example on. The actual sample size does indicate that the mechanics can be handled by the experienced player.

But content is normaly designed for certain players, and a certain reputation gets attached to it. OC is deemed casual content from the start, so you can expect a lot of casual players. Players that struggle already in normal trials. Its a huge enough portion of the playerbase. Yet if you ignore those players 'because inferior'... thats the worst possible way to think about it. Because content marketed toward them appears to be not well balanced towards them.

Players play games for fun. That is the key reason they play. And yet, plenty of players get anoyed because the fights cause dps's to repeatedly die over and over again. That indicates there is an issue regarding fun in the content. And the reason: they get to hear the content is targeted for them, only to face it actualy isnt. And if they then say its not fun, it simply is not fun.

No matter how many arguments you throw at it, you cant change the 'its not fun' part. Instead, by stating 'git gud' you are making the situation worse. You can argue as much as you want about it. You cant stop them thinking that way. You can at most cause those players to quit the game. Which in the long term is actualy the worst possible outcome. Because if that happens too much, you will lose the game you like. You still rely on the less skilled players to make money. Because otherwise they could just grind the content themselve.

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At some point, people need to understand that casual =/= braindead with absolutely no difficulty content. Being a casual player doesn't mean you are utterly unable to do anything remotely challenging. Just because some people are unwilling to put any thought and/or effort into doing something doesn't mean that thing needs to be changed. Balancing of normal/casual content should absolutely not be done around the lowest possible skill level.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

At some point, people need to understand that casual =/= braindead with absolutely no difficulty content. Being a casual player doesn't mean you are utterly unable to do anything remotely challenging. Just because some people are unwilling to put any thought and/or effort into doing something doesn't mean that thing needs to be changed. Balancing of normal/casual content should absolutely not be done around the lowest possible skill level.

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Not chain dying because of design flow is different from not doing any efforts, especially in this case, where you can do all the effort you want, and, with some CE do a perfect fight and still die without heal. With the solution I proposed, people with no skill would still chain die, but those making just a few errors would not be punished because the heal changed into tank between fates.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Another case "do you play the game?". There are some boss fates you can do solo on melee because bloodbath (but i found sam safer still) and other are impossible without healing - JUST BECAUSE OF AOE FROM BOSSES YOU CANT DODGE.

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Do you read the thread? We are not arguing that some fates cant be done without healing, we are arguing that it is a non problem because you can use a healing phantom job.

Just like tanks have to use a dps phantom job, etc.
Phantom job are meant to compensate the weaknesses of your main job, nothing more.

If there are fates you cant solo as dps, you have skill issues, simple as. Yours are so crippling that you deny that other people can possibly have different experiences than yours.

As for CEs, its group content anyway, but you can still do pretty well ungrouped as a dps with the right phantom job.

I first replied to the thread because someone literally said that dps have no access to sufficient tanking or healing capabilities which is an absurd claim when chemist exists.

I did so because I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience because they overlooked that, but I came to realize that you people are deranged and literally foaming at the mouth over a perceived game design slight that is just not there.

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Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

Do you read the thread? We are not arguing that some fates cant be done without healing, we are arguing that it is a non problem because you can use a healing phantom job.

Just like tanks have to use a dps phantom job, etc.
Phantom job are meant to compensate the weaknesses of your main job, nothing more.

If there are fates you cant solo as dps, you have skill issues, simple as. Yours are so crippling that you deny that other people can possibly have different experiences than yours.

As for CEs, its group content anyway, but you can still do pretty well ungrouped as a dps with the right phantom job.

I first replied to the thread because someone literally said that dps have no access to sufficient tanking or healing capabilities which is an absurd claim when chemist exists.

I did so because I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience because they overlooked that, but I came to realize that you people are deranged and literally foaming at the mouth over a perceived game design slight that is just not there.

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If you are a DPS your options include

-the literal most boring phantom job they ever made which takes potions everyone had access to in Bozja and made it a “job”

If you are a support your options include

-literally every single phantom job you want to play

What absolutely fantastic design we have right there. There is a vast difference between what’s “possible” and what’s actively encouraged by the game to make your life easier and to make levelling phantom jobs faster.

Going “but muh chemist” doesn’t fix what’s wrong with this particular problem in OC

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you are a DPS your options include

-the literal most boring phantom job they ever made which takes potions everyone had access to in Bozja and made it a “job”

If you are a support your options include

-literally every single phantom job you want to play

What absolutely fantastic design we have right there. There is a vast difference between what’s “possible” and what’s actively encouraged by the game to make your life easier and to make levelling phantom jobs faster.

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And yet im managing to level up my phantom jobs just fine, despite playing mostly solo. (They are all boring, by the way, but at least some are useful)

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Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

And yet im managing to level up my phantom jobs just fine, despite playing mostly solo. (They are all boring, by the way, but at least some are useful)

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Okay congrats you are playing at a clear disadvantage

Should my opinion clearing Elden ring with a soup ladle affect how balance discussions of the game

You doing it isn’t changing that you are hamstringing yourself for literally zero benefit and that is bad game design

The role that has always been the best for soloing stuff is being the best role to roleplay the lone wolf as? Say it ain't so.

And the instances where you end up actually soloing CEs are when you're still staying in a closed instance on when you're playing at times where most people with jobs would be sleeping (and you probably would end up with enough people). Literally nothing stops you from grouping with other players also fighting the CE and one healer in the group is more than enough, most of the time.

Also, weird that no one mentions RDM, a DPS who can actually sustain themselves and was massively used in Eureka purely because of that. (Bozja too, but that was because of Spirit of the Ordained)

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

The role that has always been the best for soloing stuff is being the best role to roleplay the lone wolf as? Say it ain't so.

And the instances where you end up actually soloing CEs are when you're still staying in a closed instance on when you're playing at times where most people with jobs would be sleeping (and you probably would end up with enough people). Literally nothing stops you from grouping with other players also fighting the CE and one healer in the group is more than enough, most of the time.

Also, weird that no one mentions RDM, a DPS who can actually sustain themselves and was massively used in Eureka purely because of that. (Bozja too, but that was because of Spirit of the Ordained)

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No one forcing you to defend bad game design too. There should be healing sustain for dps, ability for healer to become dps like in bozja and no forced grouping/forced use of phantom jobs.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

No one forcing you to defend bad game design too. There should be healing sustain for dps, ability for healer to become dps like in bozja and no forced grouping/forced use of phantom jobs.

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SE isn't obligated to cater to your specific set of problems. Crazy how DPS sustainability is an issue half a year after the release of OC.

And you are already forcibily grouped with everyone you do a CE with, the only difference is you'll miss on any raidwide buffs or heals. But you still prefer to remain solo then... well, whatever floats your boat. But that's pretty much a you problem, then.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay congrats you are playing at a clear disadvantage

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Please explain what the "clear disadvantage" is.

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Should my opinion clearing Elden ring with a soup ladle affect how balance discussions of the game

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Can you cool it with the false dichotomies and other absurd reductionist arguments? Its very difficult to talk with people trying so hard to be stupid.

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You doing it isn’t changing that you are hamstringing yourself for literally zero benefit and that is bad game design

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I'm not hamstringing myself by playing dps. Maybe you would be hamstringing yourself but thats a you problem.

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Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

Do you read the thread? We are not arguing that some fates cant be done without healing, we are arguing that it is a non problem because you can use a healing phantom job.

Just like tanks have to use a dps phantom job, etc.
Phantom job are meant to compensate the weaknesses of your main job, nothing more.

If there are fates you cant solo as dps, you have skill issues, simple as. Yours are so crippling that you deny that other people can possibly have different experiences than yours.

As for CEs, its group content anyway, but you can still do pretty well ungrouped as a dps with the right phantom job.

I first replied to the thread because someone literally said that dps have no access to sufficient tanking or healing capabilities which is an absurd claim when chemist exists.

I did so because I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience because they overlooked that, but I came to realize that you people are deranged and literally foaming at the mouth over a perceived game design slight that is just not there.

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Since I'm the person you initially replied to, I'll clear up some of your assumptions about me.

"I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience" I don't have a bad experience with OC. While I do have criticism, it's not related to bad experience. You're welcome to look at my Lodestone page, I have the same amount of mastered phantom jobs as you, and also 100+ fates and 100+ CE cleared. Not something a person with bad experience of the content would have I would assume.

Then it seems you've focused on the first line I wrote. Sure, it was hyperbole, but it seems you've completely overlooked the part I wrote about survival in OC in the later text. I did write that some phantom jobs offer defensive or healing options, but that it's more restricted option compared to Eureka and Bozja.

You keep saying people should use chemist to stay alive. I agree that if you're leveling knowledge rank or chemist that's a good thing to make use of. But then what happens when you're at max knowledge and capped chemist. The only reward you get from fates and CEs are the silver. Each chemist potion costs 10kgil/40silver/40gold. So if you need to use chemist to heal once, that's half of the silver reward of a fate, or 20% from a CE. So you can quickly burn a lot of gil/silver/gold to stay alive, but then you're burning the reward you would get from the fate or CE. And what if a person wants to level something like cannoneer or thief, should they just be SoL since those jobs have no healing or survivability built in?

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

You keep saying people should use chemist to stay alive. I agree that if you're leveling knowledge rank or chemist that's a good thing to make use of. But then what happens when you're at max knowledge and capped chemist.

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I also keep saying that in most situations you don't need to use chemist. Solo fates are the exception, not the rule, and not all fates have a lot of unavoidable damage either.

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The only reward you get from fates and CEs are the silver.

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And the chest respawns (huge source of gil)

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Each chemist potion costs 10kgil/40silver/40gold. So if you need to use chemist to heal once, that's half of the silver reward of a fate, or 20% from a CE. So you can quickly burn a lot of gil/silver/gold to stay alive, but then you're burning the reward you would get from the fate or CE.

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I rarely use more than one per fate, and that only if the fate have significant unavoidable damage (or the occasional mistake), and im doing it solo. I bought a big stack of potions once or twice just to dump my silver pieces and I could probably farm OC for a month without running out.

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And what if a person wants to level something like cannoneer or thief, should they just be SoL since those jobs have no healing or survivability built in?

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You level those during the 90% of the time where fates are zerged by dozen of people, or when someone is tanking it, or when you're doing CEs with a party.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

SE isn't obligated to cater to your specific set of problems. Crazy how DPS sustainability is an issue half a year after the release of OC.

And you are already forcibily grouped with everyone you do a CE with, the only difference is you'll miss on any raidwide buffs or heals. But you still prefer to remain solo then... well, whatever floats your boat. But that's pretty much a you problem, then.

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You're all speaking about different things. You're speaking about the feasibility of playing solo or making up for a lack of support players in your vicinity as a DPS, which is perfectly achievable... most of the time, if just by working around it, or swapping roles. That's fine.
Some other people are however speaking about the game design which doesn't take into account any of this and seems to strongly favor some roles (namely tanks) over anything else because said game design couldn't be arsed to provide the same flexibility than eureka/bozja did.

SE isn't obligated to cater to specific sets of problems, but by doing so, they're also harming the experience of many players when their design could certainly have been better to avoid said set of issues. And that's always a problem with how they design content, they barely give a thought for what happens once the content starts dying out.

I think people in the thread are also forgetting there are more phantom jobs being added in 7.45 so "just use chemist" means that dps won't have the same options to freely level those as a tank or healer would. And it's not just a solo thing. Any party that is lacking a healer will run into these problems for the dps.

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Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

Please explain what the "clear disadvantage" is.



Can you cool it with the false dichotomies and other absurd reductionist arguments? Its very difficult to talk with people trying so hard to be stupid.



I'm not hamstringing myself by playing dps. Maybe you would be hamstringing yourself but thats a you problem.

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The clear disadvantage is that you are playing a job with less survivability to not even do more damage because of the way phantom jobs work and be limited in exactly when you can use a non sustain job to level it.

Why use a squishy job when you can use a job that can tank 8 vuln stacks with ease and still as much damage as you WITH ZERO DOWNSIDES

Just because you can doesn’t mean it isn’t awful game design to have a role with that many upsides and literally zero downsides

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Originally Posted by Valence

snip

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The thread is about the former, not the latter. Also, tanks have been the prime soloing job since very early (and, let's be honest here, also in other MMO beyond FFXIV that abide by the trinity) because, at the end of the day, a dead DPS does no DPS and a tank surviving can eventually overtake them.

And, as much as I liked Lost Actions, reality is that the vast majority players will simply gravitate towards the path of least resistance and Bozja was far from the exception. The average player is far more pragmatic or lazy than most people here give them credit for.

Even if, like OP requested, they brought a usable regen potion out, support would still be the go to for most simply because the first would still be able handle way more punishment and the latter is most 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 ad eternum that makes it easier to spot mechanics.

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SE isn't obligated to cater to specific sets of problems, but by doing so, they're also harming the experience of many players

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Each ignored specific sets of problems affects a specific group of player. And it would be nice if they got solved. Problem is, there is not one. There are thousands over thousands of similarily important peet peeves. Who decides which should get more priority? And more importantly, why should SE redirect time they could use on addressing actual major issues, like the shambling inventory system, housing, social tab, overall combat design, among other things?

I would rather they prioritize the more pressing matters rather than cater to problems people just decide to bash their skulls against rather than climb over in the several ways possible they have. OP and the one above answering me could just group with a healer (they're not hard to find, really) or bring a healer friend and their problems would be over. I can't really go over how poorly the glamour system works, the housing scarcity or rigid customization system, avoiding the 2 minure meta with most classes,....

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

The thread is about the former, not the latter.

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As the one that opened the thread, no, it's not about the former, it's definitely very close to the latter. I never spoke about soloing things. I always try to get a party. But sometimes, you have to do with the composition you have, and if you're with no healer or a below average healer, well, you end chain dying despite doing pretty good. This supposed to be a easy step in, easy to step out content. You don't control the the other players : when someone invite you in a team you don't know the composition and stick with it. You're not gonna leave because it's not the right composition : that's the best way to not get a team at all. People often talk about the lack of incentives, but incentives are not only rewards, it's also the feeling you didn't loose the time you had to play. That why this solution of "playing with already mastered job" and wait for other is not good enough. I don't want spending 2 hours and not progress in the objective I have in mind. This the reason people hated the Atma step of the relic : because it felt you were losing your time.

Here the choice play without progressing in an objective or chain die when you don't have a heal. I want a possibility to progress as a dps, while not chain dying if I don't have the right composition. Still dying if I fail the mechanics too often, but if do most of them right, I should be able to survive whatever the team composition. I don't have to be punished for something outside of control. And it's not fun to punished for that.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Also, tanks have been the prime soloing job since very early (and, let's be honest here, also in other MMO beyond FFXIV that abide by the trinity) because, at the end of the day, a dead DPS does no DPS and a tank surviving can eventually overtake them.

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With the big glaring exception that tanks also have their own shortcomings namely in the way of damage, which is also a thing in XIV, for instance in savage (it's a lot more crippling to lose your top DPS than a support job), or even in deep dungeons where tanks are easy mode until you realize that they're also slow to kill things, which matters quite a bit. In a lot of other games or MMOs they're also incapable of keeping themselves alive on their own either.

And that's precisely the point being made by players about why this becomes a problem in OC. Heck, we're not just talking about tanks being able to survive forever here, which is another point of contention - just read those countless threads about how tanks are invulnerable in casual content and make healers irrelevant. We're talking about tanks literally having not a single downside.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

And, as much as I liked Lost Actions, reality is that the vast majority players will simply gravitate towards the path of least resistance and Bozja was far from the exception. The average player is far more pragmatic or lazy than most people here give them credit for.

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So what? If the players are lazy and a lot of them go tank in Bozja (which happened yes), at least the non lazy ones willing to play DPS had options, and still have options - unless your point is literally that you don't care about the non lazy players. The problem isn't about players going solo when the content is current, there is enough players around to find a party with healers if you're not tanking - nobody is arguing about that. The problem becomes more and more relevant once the content becomes less and less relevant due to age - and yet I've been in the exact same situations as the OP describes a few times when the content was brand new. What happens once I'm alone in OC and want to go through the content as a DPS? "Just swap to tank lol"? See, that's the problem. The content doesn't enforce role segregation in parties or instances, which is exactly why the cracks of the current pve design start to show very badly.

And while we're in the realm of blanket statements about player categories, I'd argue that the ones actually switching to tank aren't the most casual anyway. The most casual will just show up and play with their favorite DPS job anyway.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Each ignored specific sets of problems affects a specific group of player. And it would be nice if they got solved. Problem is, there is not one. There are thousands over thousands of similarily important peet peeves.

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What are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Who decides which should get more priority? And more importantly, why should SE redirect time they could use on addressing actual major issues, like the shambling inventory system, housing, social tab, overall combat design, among other things? I would rather they prioritize the more pressing matters rather than cater to problems people just decide to bash their skulls against rather than climb over in the several ways possible they have. OP and the one above answering me could just group with a healer (they're not hard to find, really) or bring a healer friend and their problems would be over. I can't really go over how poorly the glamour system works, the housing scarcity or rigid customization system, avoiding the 2 minure meta with most classes,...

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So adding simple sustain potions is competing with dev resources to fix inventory issues, housing, social tab, overall combat design. Got it.

Like, it would be better if they actually allowed some limited phantom actions you could pick from the phantoms you mastered so that you pick up the good chemist ones as a permanent action next to the phantom you actually chose to level/use, but OP wasn't even asking about that. Just a stupid potion lol

For people saying “oh it’s fine” explain why potions need to be locked behind a “job” when Bozja allowed anyone to use them for any reason

Is anyone going to argue chemist is a well designed phantom job even amongst the low bar of existing phantom jobs

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

snip

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You're the one who started complaining about how much of a pain in the ass to survive unavoidable damage as DPS and you call for the solution being a regen potion like previous FO. How is any of that not a tirade about DPS survivability?

And I play on EU and both in Light and in Chaos, I have mastered all 12 jobs and I have NEVER seen a sole CE where there isn't a healer at hand. Much less a party where no one compromised for the most damage intensive bosses (garula, berserk and the dogu). I find it VERY hard to believe that running into a party that can't heal at all, either by phantom job or by normal job. Your whole point coils around a long string of "ifs": if no one goes healer, if no one brings any phantom jobs that can heal (there isn't just chemist), if I play a DPS with low self-sustain and if I'm in one of the higher damage CEs.

And people hated the Atma because of the RNG. It was always the RNG that people hated.

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Originally Posted by Valence

With the big glaring exception that tanks also have their own shortcomings namely in the way of damage, which is also a thing in XIV, for instance in savage (it's a lot more crippling to lose your top DPS than a support job), or even in deep dungeons where tanks are easy mode until you realize that they're also slow to kill things, which matters quite a bit. In a lot of other games or MMOs they're also incapable of keeping themselves alive on their own either.

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List me the amount of hard enrages or narrow DPS checks in CE, barring Forked Tower. Because we're talking about OC, not Savage or Deep Dungeon (not to mention tanks are still a top choice in the DD where NPC unavoidable damage does actually matter, namely PotD and HoH.

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What happens once I'm alone in OC and want to go through the content as a DPS?

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You jump instances. If you're alone in OC, 90% of the times is because the instance is closed and, regardless of sustain, you would still want to jump instance simply because Fates will be cleared faster.

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And while we're in the realm of blanket statements about player categories, I'd argue that the ones actually switching to tank aren't the most casual anyway. The most casual will just show up and play with their favorite DPS job anyway.

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Most casual players treat the content with utter fear of dying to new mechanics because they do not understand the concept of progressing. Not only that, they will still go for the tank or healer simply because they're easier to play.

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So adding simple sustain potions is competing with dev resources to fix inventory issues, housing, social tab, overall combat design. Got it.

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Adding simple sustain potions isn't the first nor the list kind of small petitions in the forums. You can't be seriously reading my post like that, lol

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We're talking about tanks literally having not a single downside.

Like, it would be better if they actually allowed some limited phantom actions you could pick from the phantoms you mastered so that you pick up the good chemist ones as a permanent action next to the phantom you actually chose to level/use, but OP wasn't even asking about that. Just a stupid potion lol

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Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

You're the one who started complaining about how much of a pain in the ass to survive unavoidable damage as DPS and you call for the solution being a regen potion like previous FO. How is any of that not a tirade about DPS survivability?

And I play on EU and both in Light and in Chaos, I have mastered all 12 jobs and I have NEVER seen a sole CE where there isn't a healer at hand. Much less a party where no one compromised for the most damage intensive bosses (garula, berserk and the dogu). I find it VERY hard to believe that running into a party that can't heal at all, either by phantom job or by normal job. Your whole point coils around a long string of "ifs": if no one goes healer, if no one brings any phantom jobs that can heal (there isn't just chemist), if I play a DPS with low self-sustain and if I'm in one of the higher damage CEs.

And people hated the Atma because of the RNG. It was always the RNG that people hated.

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Yeah, continue to claim you know better than me what I meant, and that the problem is not your interpretation of my words. You never got in one of those situation? Good for you. I have to say it's not most of my experience with OC (I'm currently at 10 jobs lvled up), but it happens often enough to be frustrating.

Also, on the RNG thing : go further, why do they hate rng? because you don't see yourself progress and can feel like you lost your time without any progress... You don't hate RNG because it's RNG, you hate rng because of the frustration it brings and why are you frustrated? Because it's been so much time and it still did not drop yet... you're frustrated because you don't progress... Being forced to use already mastered phantom jobs is the same : getting frustrated because you have only that much time and in that time you cannot progress. It's the same process behind both.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

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Because OC is literally designed such that tanks have no downsides and DPS have no upsides

Like surely this isn’t hard to understand. The phantom job system punishes DPS with no sustain options other than the abomination that is chemist while tanks have literally zero downsides

They are both sides of the awful balance of OC

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

List me the amount of hard enrages or narrow DPS checks in CE, barring Forked Tower. Because we're talking about OC, not Savage or Deep Dungeon (not to mention tanks are still a top choice in the DD where NPC unavoidable damage does actually matter, namely PotD and HoH.

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You realize you're only making my point further there?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

You jump instances. If you're alone in OC, 90% of the times is because the instance is closed and, regardless of sustain, you would still want to jump instance simply because Fates will be cleared faster.

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Uh-uh, and that's still going to be a thing once OC is behind us as well right?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Most casual players treat the content with utter fear of dying to new mechanics because they do not understand the concept of progressing. Not only that, they will still go for the tank or healer simply because they're easier to play.

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Your idea of what a casual player is and how they tick is both hilarious and somewhat condescending to read. But don't let me convince you otherwise and continue thinking that casuals are allergic to dying when they're usually the ones dying the most in any type of content, and continue thinking that casuals will optimize the crap out of their playtime instead of going for the job aesthetic they like.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Adding simple sustain potions isn't the first nor the list kind of small petitions in the forums. You can't be seriously reading my post like that, lol

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How am I supposed to read it then? Why even bringing those issues in the first place then?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

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If the problem is the survivability of DPS that would appreciate sustaining potions, and if tanks have nothing to do with that, then why do you even care whether or not they get their potion?

Your logic makes zero sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Not chain dying because of design flow is different from not doing any efforts, especially in this case, where you can do all the effort you want, and, with some CE do a perfect fight and still die without heal. With the solution I proposed, people with no skill would still chain die, but those making just a few errors would not be punished because the heal changed into tank between fates.

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I mean, if you go into a raid without a healer, you have a good chance of getting on the floor as a DPS as well. Imo OC is supposed to be group content, I don't see the issue of needing a healer. People complain that healers are useless but then complain that they need them for OC and want them to be useless again. What's even the point of playing healers if everyone can survive just fine without you ?

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

I mean, if you go into a raid without a healer, you have a good chance of getting on the floor as a DPS as well. Imo OC is supposed to be group content, I don't see the issue of needing a healer. People complain that healers are useless but then complain that they need them for OC and want them to be useless again. What's even the point of playing healers if everyone can survive just fine without you ?

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Because again DPS needing healers isn’t much of a relevant point when you can just play a tank and have literally zero downsides

I’m a healer I want to be useful, I also don’t blame DPS for feeling overly reliant on healers in a system that discourages experimentation on squishy jobs when tanks have zero downsides