On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

How would it work for PLD? I like shield charging an enemyfrom afar even funnier when i use it to negate knock back and deal some extra damage

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Based on Trajectory and whatever the shitty DRG gap closer is called, A-pose and slide at the enemy with a shield particle effect in front of you.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Look! This guy likes to have LESS options and LESS decision making!

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lol. I've done it in other games that have a free-standing dash skill where the critters do cleave auto attacks and literally no one but the tank can take even one hit from them. It's good for a laugh but it's not a decision to make, it's just fat-fingering the dash. I wouldn't mind this game having a dodge button though, being able to greed even more because you can dodge out of an AoE at the last second would be fun.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I mean gotta make sure the party pays attention and not tunnel vision

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An sudden incoming tankbuster does tend to wake people up!

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

If you ever wondered, Warrior has a 3 dash that deal damage which you might think is nothing but in areas such as deep dungeons, this can easily kill mobs or get you that extra dps. Even in dungeons this alone can deal nice damage x3.

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Tbf, you don't get added overall DPS from having damaging gap closers unless the devs so neglect balance that they happily drop all others' DPS by some 2%.

At most, you just get to dump slightly more of it into a short window, assuming that the two job's burst potential were never equalized and/or the mobility tools were specifically not expected to be used in multiple under raid buffs.

"You shouldn't have to make a choice between damage and mobility, Plunge is bad, mimimimi"- alright, let's remove damage from ALL mobility actions. Looking at YOU, Warrior, with Onslaught AND Primal Rend. Looking at YOU, Dragoon, with Stardiver. /s

In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it? I mean Warrior literally has Primal Rend as a GCD dash which is part of their burst and still have Onslaught as well. They don't seem to do too bad with having two different mobility options.

Before Endwalker, they also had arguably the best designed dash with a gauge cost and low CD (10s), which made it damage neutral on average (yes I did the math back then) relative to Fell Cleave and 123 combo finishes near the end of a fight. Samurai also currently has a gauge-costing dash AND backstep which is damage neutral to their main gauge spender.

Ya'll gotta get out of this absolute "EITHER X OR Y" mindset. Think outside of the box.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"You shouldn't have to make a choice between damage and mobility, Plunge is bad, mimimimi"- alright, let's remove damage from ALL mobility actions. Looking at YOU, Warrior, with Onslaught AND Primal Rend. Looking at YOU, Dragoon, with Stardiver. /s

In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it? I mean Warrior literally has Primal Rend as a GCD dash which is part of their burst and still have Onslaught as well. They don't seem to do too bad with having two different mobility options.

Before Endwalker, they also had arguably the best designed dash with a gauge cost and low CD (10s), which made it damage neutral on average (yes I did the math back then) relative to Fell Cleave and 123 combo finishes near the end of a fight. Samurai also currently has a gauge-costing dash AND backstep which is damage neutral to their main gauge spender.

Ya'll gotta get out of this absolute "EITHER X OR Y" mindset. Think outside of the box.

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Because feature creep is as much a thing as power creep.

And do you really want encounters that would leverage proportionately more gap-closers, let alone then have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes?



Edit:
Since this wasn't as clear as I would like, by "features" I mean anything that allows you to meet a situational need that's more than just overall potency requirements, be that banking said potency to fit what would otherwise require more uptime into a smaller time period, maintaining uptime despite gaps or movement requirements, etc. (Nearly-)no-loss gap closers are one such feature. (Nearly-)no-loss ranged skills are another. The likes of meditation, if it were (situationally) to get almost as much potency per GCD as continuing one's melee attacks would be yet another.

The more accessible (less thought required, more charges, lower recast time) the skills, traits, etc., that give you those features, the more of it you have. Having too much of a given feature (such as gap-closing), especially if overly accessible, can devalue the more complex portions.

Consider it as just the opposite side of power creep. The more excessive your power, the less optimizing it matters. The more excessive your features, the less you need to leverage them well and the less the parts of kits that most differ in how they'd deal with a given situation (which are rarely the most easy-to-use parts) can shine.

For this reason, I wouldn't want to see the likes of DRK increase its frequency of gap-closing capacity by some 50 - 100% as suggested above. If it's to gain more uptime-saving capacity to more nearly match the most mobile of jobs (which would require that encounters have more to use it on, else it's all just so excessive as to water down any relevant skill expression), I'd prefer that come from other means.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because feature creep is as much a thing as power creep.

And do you really want encounters that would leverage proportionately more gap-closers, let alone then have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes?

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Wha- sorry but I'm a bit lost here with what you mean with "feature creep", so I assume you mean something like "one button doing too many things" like PvP Plunge? Because I'm gonna be honest, DRK's kit for example is the most bland it has ever been and all boils down to pressing 123 to generate MP + Blood, spend it after and have every other kit interaction be nothing but a cooldown gate with zero interplay. If this is what you mean with feature creep, no offense I heartfully disagree. If you mean something else, sorry and please enlighten me.

Also, I did not imply that you would have MORE mobility on average and that you would "need" to design fights around this, only to have two tools with appropriate-length cooldowns, one purely for mobility, the other for kit interaction that can also be situationally used as a dash just like Warrior does with Primal Rend.

"have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Healing/Casting jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes" - uhhhh.

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Casting:
- 40s Swiftcast
- BLM heavily reduced damage impact of making Fire IV & Flare (Star) instant by moving the 2.8-3s cast time down to 2s, two stacks of Triplecast since Endwalker, Paradox instant regardless of element, Thunder always instant, Aether Manip. on 10s CD and more
- SMN exists but honestly needs to be unshafted from its low damage vs other casters
- RDM having three instant spells after melee combos, two charges on its mobility damage tools, Acceleration also granting Grand Impact now
- PCT technically having fairly on demand movement (damage numbers might be a bit scuffed regarding Hammer/Holy in White, haven't revisited that in a while) + Smudge dash with a 4s built-in sprint after

Healing:
- WHM lillies, Glare IV + has received Aetherial Shift in DT
- sorry Scholars, I feel bad for you
- AST 2x Lightspeed at 60s charge from what was once like 1x 120s CD
- SGE doing fairly well with Toxikons, Icarus and when required Eukrasia shielding...
- also 40s Swiftcast

Aiming
- Dancer says hello with En Avant, also are we really comparing the role that can do damage virtually regardless of position and having no cast times since Stormblood to melee/tanks that tend to require melee distance to do optimal damage in the expansion where they introduced fights where having to go out of melee distance actually became a thing again?

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Like - they already DID provide a ton of downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs over the years and from what I felt outside of Ultimates, only really started making us utilize it properly since Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Wha- sorry but I'm a bit lost here with what you mean with "feature creep"

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Nope, I'm referring to the likes of increasing the number of instant-movement skills by 50% - 100% (a la Shadowstride AND Plunge charges both). We don't need that much access to that specific feature (mobility).

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"have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Healing/Casting jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes" - uhhhh.

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I know. Now, do you somehow want to see that increased further to go with your doubling of gap-closers?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nope, I'm referring to the likes of increasing the number of instant-movement skills by 50% - 100% (a la Shadowstride AND Plunge charges both). We don't need that much access to that specific feature (mobility).


I know. Now, do you somehow want to see that increased further to go with your doubling of gap-closers?

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Ok I get your point but I believe you are misunderstanding me here. I am NOT asking for 2x 30s recast on both Shadowstride and Plunge, I am suggesting 1x 30-45s on Shadowstride and Plunge respectively and making Plunge maybe something that impacts gameplay beyond a bit of potency. That's not doubling of gap closers at all.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Ok I get your point but I believe you are misunderstanding me here. I am NOT asking for 2x 30s recast on both Shadowstride and Plunge, I am suggesting 1x 30-45s on Shadowstride and Plunge respectively and making Plunge maybe something that impacts gameplay beyond a bit of potency. That's not doubling of gap closers at all.

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At 30s, that would still double the frequency of gap-closers. Charges don't cool simultaneously. At 45s that would be a 50% increase to the number of uses of instant-movement skills over time. So, a 50% - 100% increase.

More importantly, though, what's the point? If you leave Plunge at all, those who'd waste 90% of its situational value by wasting its gap-closing just to guarantee 10% by blowing it during raid buffs regardless of upcoming gaps will still be pissed it exists at all, and if you remove its second charge it actually would need to be used far nearer to on-cooldown to be worth holding for gaps. You're better off just giving 2 charges all of Plunge or 2 charges all of Shadowstride.

Plunge still exists in pvp

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Originally Posted by Underscore

I'm enjoying my Ninja arc, but man I need Dragoon back so bad. Haven't touched the job (or what's left of it) since then.

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I'm still stunned that the same team that made EW DRG could make DT DRG. The changes are so bad it's almost comical, like a post you'd see in a silly "list the ways you'd ruin your favorite job" thread. Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Sigh - Alright so if you care so much about "the number of uses of instant movement skills over time", lets talk about it and why I think it is ridiculous to even lose sleep over this.

For a start, we already have (and had, in case of WAR) dashes that you can press up to 12x per minute with Samurai's Hissatsu: Gyoten, which is a mere 5s CD for a measly 10 Kenki - which is also damage neutral to Shinten and wont break your leg if you miss a single Shinten in a raid buff window as a result of overusing it. That is six times of what tanks recharge right now. Even assuming a degenerate 2x Shadowstride and 2x Plunge at 30s each, that's only a single tank that would have this "mobility/feature creep". Shadowbringers WAR had a similar situation going on with Onslaught vs SAM's Gyoten.

That said, we have another tank that has something crazy that other tanks do not - Paladin. Has arguably the best ranged attack toolkit with Holy Spirit and half of its Requiescat window being extremely potent damage you can use from afar. Fights are not designed around tanks having this - nontheless, Paladin performs greatly whenever you DO have to disengage for some reason when having any instant spells available. Hell, even unbuffed Holy Spirit is fairly strong compared to Tomahawk, Unmend and Lightning Shot.

Furthermore, even with that 50-100% "increase", it is only a potential, not a true increase. Given that mechanics that move you off the boss tend to be spaced as such that even with current Shadowstride you virtually never run out of it (especially given Unmend trait still existing if its really bad), you effectively currently have "infinite" Shadowstride vs what we had before with Plunge where we may have had to hold for planned dashing. So even in a situation where the charge(s) would be 45s and you'd alternate and space the dashes out, you'd literally not run out as long as Shadowstride remains in the game.

Lastly, "additional value" can be added with an effect such as "next XYZ action(s) receive the following benefit (defensive, restorative, situational)" or a Sole Survivor effect that could do something like "heals you for every GCD you land on that target for 100-200 heal potency" with an effect lasting like 66% of Plunge's cooldown, maybe even an "on-kill" effect like in PvP where it grants a %-HP heal + Plunge reset - something that would be kinda nice to have in a fight like M6S for instance. Plunge wouldn't NEED to be a dash you use purely for damage OR its dash capabilities, it can be designed in many ways.

As for "what's the point"? The point is the current dash design is boring and only made things worse from a flavour standpoint. Any changes would make this better.

As much as i like plunge it's the least of our worries when it comes to how badly jobs have been homogenized, gap closers in general like it would be cool to see them back but it would barely make a dent in what i actually care about.

If they want to win trust they need to start taking risks in 8.0 they need to show us they're willing to actually be creative with job design.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

As much as i like plunge it's the least of our worries when it comes to how badly jobs have been homogenized, gap closers in general like it would be cool to see them back but it would barely make a dent in what i actually care about.

If they want to win trust they need to start taking risks in 8.0 they need to show us they're willing to actually be creative with job design.

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Yeah I 100% agree with that one. Its kind of whack how we actually used to have some interesting interaction (MP and Blood actions fed into each other for instance) and now we got... kinda nothing.

Doesnt have to return to the old days, but man even the PvP kits have more interesting and complex kit interactions with half the buttons. Kinda whack.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Sigh - Alright so if you care so much about "the number of uses of instant movement skills over time", lets talk about it and why I think it is ridiculous to even lose sleep over this.

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Simply pointed out that the exact math you clarified increases that by exactly the amount I stated.

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For a start, we already have (and had, in case of WAR) dashes that you can press up to 12x per minute with Samurai's Hissatsu: Gyoten, which is a mere 5s CD for a measly 10 Kenki - which is also damage neutral to Shinten and wont break your leg if you miss a single Shinten in a raid buff window as a result of overusing it.

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"Had" = 10s CD on Onslaught, at potency cost, and 10s on Gyoten, also at potency loss. 5s, no-cost Gyoten is quite recent.

And at 12 per minute (or 24 if counting Yaten) movement skills per minute, SAM's mobility is, yes, excessive. DRG, in 2nd place, has just 3 or 5 movement skills per minute, only 2 of them instant, with WAR in 3rd place with 3, with the vast majority having 2. That said, SAM is also the also the only job without multiple charges on its movement skills.

Why would we want to copy the OP outlier? That doesn't sound any more reasonable than having tank sustain all copy WAR at its most broken.

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Furthermore, even with that 50-100% "increase", it is only a potential, not a true increase. Given that mechanics that move you off the boss tend to be spaced as such that even with current Shadowstride you virtually never run out of it (especially given Unmend trait still existing if its really bad), you effectively currently have "infinite" Shadowstride vs what we had before with Plunge where we may have had to hold for planned dashing. So even in a situation where the charge(s) would be 45s and you'd alternate and space the dashes out, you'd literally not run out as long as Shadowstride remains in the game.

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Which means that capacity should probably be nerfed, not buffed, relative to the demands of encounters. Having effectively infinite gap-closing devalues the likes of Req phases, Yaten, Reply of Wind, etc., because they just render each other redundant.

Again, why buff what is already too much?

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As for "what's the point"? The point is the current dash design is boring and only made things worse from a flavour standpoint. Any changes would make this better.

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I asked what the point was of having a 1-charge Plunge that therefore would actually need to be used on CD and a 1-charge Shadowslip -- which seems to me the worst of both worlds. You had no examples remotely like adding "defensive, restorative, or situational" benefits in what I quoted and critiqued, only a suggestion for yet more gap-closing per minute.

I'm clearly fine with bundling in more effects. Such has nothing to do with what I was critiquing.

I mean I just argued that such gives harmless increase in button-density and flavor:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Phew, thank god I had you two to explain that to me and not the years of competitive LP! It still can be designed better. EW PLD dash was better. Separating stun into shield bash was better. GNB dashes are better, full stop.

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Guess we'd better separate that self-heal/barrier from Brutal Shell, the 4s miti layer and excog each out of Heart of Corundum, the parry chance from the base mitigation of Camouflage, etc.

If we keep having any two effects not perfectly alike (not necessarily sharing exactly the same optimal timings even if separated) together under a single skill to make gameplay more than "monkey see gap, monkey close gap", we'd certainly cause ourselves cognitive fatigue before we can hit our daily PvP fix.

Thinking that could possibly weigh multiple factors together -- what an abomination! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

/s to be clear.

I don't mind having discrete gap-closers, but they're no more needed than for a %DR and barrier to be separate, or damage and healing, etc.. There's extra control in having those as separate tools, certainly, but having the most streamlined, straight-foward path to every capacity (as to reduce any value for/in componential strategy, etc.) isn't always for the best. And as PvP aims to be button-efficient, it makes all the more sense that flavor sometimes bundles in some extra cognitive load rather than all that is not discrete and plain being pruned.

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For Dragoon I'm fine with not having Spineshatter dive (I think Winged Glide looks cool) If I were to make changes, I would make it like so:
1 - Mirage Dive opening eyes are back, for downtime where you can't high jump a new action that shares cd with high jump that gives one eye is added and you start each encounter with both eyes opened.
2 - Geirskogul is back to 30 seconds. It grants Blood of the Dragon for 10 seconds and grants 1 usage of Hekla (A blue Nastrond) if you have 0 or 1 eyes. Otherwise, it grants Life of the Dragon for 20 seconds and grants 2 usages of Nastrond.

I feel like this would add some busyness to Dragoon without making it too much and we get to see blue glow in higher levels as well.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Simply pointed out that the exact math you clarified increases that by exactly the amount I stated.
"Had" = 10s CD on Onslaught, at potency cost, and 10s on Gyoten, also at potency loss. 5s, no-cost Gyoten is quite recent.

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1.) Gyoten for a long time has not been a potency loss since they have been matching potency-per-gauge (PPG) with Shinten. Gyoten also still costs 10 kenki, all they did was reduce the CD from 10s to 5s - i.e. made it more available
2.) Onslaught was a situational damage loss and on occasion even a damage gain vs non-IR Fell Cleave, the potency-per-gauge difference I did the math a long time ago, feel free to check it.

https://i.imgur.com/KSkKxjI.png

Basically it boils down to double-digit potency differences over the course of a fight, which in comparison to potency/minute or potency/10min is actually a tiny difference.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And at 12 per minute (or 24 if counting Yaten) movement skills per minute, SAM's mobility is, yes, excessive. DRG, in 2nd place, has just 3 or 5 movement skills per minute, only 2 of them instant, with WAR in 3rd place with 3, with the vast majority having 2. That said, SAM is also the also the only job without multiple charges on its movement skills. Why would we want to copy the OP outlier? That doesn't sound any more reasonable than having tank sustain all copy WAR at its most broken.

Which means that capacity should probably be nerfed, not buffed, relative to the demands of encounters. Having effectively infinite gap-closing devalues the likes of Req phases, Yaten, Reply of Wind, etc., because they just render each other redundant.

Again, why buff what is already too much?

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I wouldn't go for a copy of the outlier, as you respond below you know I have more than one way to go about things, but I'm just pointing out that your argument of "increasing availability of gap closers/mobility tools will likely lead to a change to encounter design where all jobs need to be given equivalents or similar" (that's how I understood it) doesn't hold a lot of water because we already *have* cases of precedence where one job or another has a big advantage in mobility/range over others, yet encounter design and by proxy job design isn't being flipped on its head because of it.

WAR's current Onslaught is also more or less just 2 x Onslaught per minute in recharges, giving a bit of leeway before the 2min burst where you want to throw in the odd Onslaught to prevent overcap - it's not that much more mobile, but I'm not gonna die on this hill tbh.

Nerfing capacity and neutering jobs that are outliers is exactly why we have the flavourless job design that we have evolved into now ever since the Shadowbringers design flip. Having 1-3 jobs better at dashes while others be better at ranged attacks (or mobile casting in terms of Casters/Healers) isn't something that should be neutered, but instead embraced.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I asked what the point was of having a 1-charge Plunge that therefore would actually need to be used on CD and a 1-charge Shadowslip -- which seems to me the worst of both worlds. You had no examples remotely like adding "defensive, restorative, or situational" benefits in what I quoted and critiqued, only a suggestion for yet more gap-closing per minute.I'm clearly fine with bundling in more effects. Such has nothing to do with what I was critiquing.

I mean I just argued that such gives harmless increase in button-density and flavor:

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You're incorrect on that one - I did give example referencing the PvP DRK equivalent of Plunge. You literally responded to it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

[...]"In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it?[...]

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That said, my suggestion to have both of them comes from trying to appease both the side that "dashes shouldn't do damage, they should be for utility", hence keeping Shadowstride for a pure mobility tool but also the side that wants Plunge back, which is a satisfying button visually but could be made more interesting. The exact numbers to tweak and settling for how much mobility DRK is supposed to have is a completely different ballgame that I haven't explored - all I am stating is that we should NOT have current Shadowstride + 6.5 Plunge at the exact same time.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Nerfing capacity and neutering jobs that are outliers is exactly why we have the flavourless job design that we have evolved into now ever since the Shadowbringers design flip. Having 1-3 jobs better at dashes while others be better at ranged attacks (or mobile casting in terms of Casters/Healers) isn't something that should be neutered, but instead embraced.

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I never said that those with the most mobility should lose their mobility. I said that if, as you said, even the least mobile character currently have more mobility than they could ever need, then the whole floor is excessive.

I'd far prefer that PLD had less mobility and more ranged capacity as to be more unique from the other tanks. I'd sooner DRK have a way to pull enemies to a given point via Abyssal Drain and Unmend than necessarily have as much mobility as a Warrior or GNB.

I merely said that I don't want so much mobility that it devalues any other uptime-saving trick a kit might offer. And when even the jobs tied for least mobile have more than they need, that becomes inevitable.

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You're incorrect on that one - I did give example referencing the PvP DRK equivalent of Plunge.

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I... know. I'm aware of what I quoted. Although I guess I should have been more careful in not calling it new since, while PvP Plunge has long since existed and Sole Survivor was already in PvE, PvE Plunge doesn't yet apply Sole Survivor?

Admittedly I guess I should have read more into its just being one possible example instead of that one thing exactly, though. My bad.

Again, I have no problem with the bonus effects; hence my defense of PvP Plunge and the like earlier.

I just have a problem with bringing each job's capacity in some category (be it mobility or whatever other situational matter) up to(wards) that the jobs that are most focused around that capacity. I'd rather see more distinct ways to provide that that don't then devalue the difference between kits.

At this point we seem mostly agreed on that, yes? If anything, I'm probably just more wary of how a kit having an excess of easy access to a given capacity can then devalue its less-accessible means of adding to that capacity.

(See non-standard lines on BLM (less accessible, more involved, and to many more interesting) --> instant-casts ad nauseum, or even old Plunge knockback nullifications vs. Arm's Length, for instance.)

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

That said, my suggestion to have both of them comes from trying to appease both the side that "dashes shouldn't do damage, they should be for utility", hence keeping Shadowstride for a pure mobility tool but also the side that wants Plunge back, which is a satisfying button visually but could be made more interesting.

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And again, that I think would be the worst of both worlds.

The first makes no more sense than "heals shouldn't have barriers; they should be separate." The uptime retained through closing a gap is as surely damage as the potency the skill itself does. The concern is nonsense that is not worth offering awkward bloat to pander to, especially for so long as there are multiple charges available to the damaging gap-closer. (Accordingly, though, removing that extra charge then creates at least as much of a problem even for that target group as what a separate Shadowstride would be meant to prevent, all while adding an extra button's cost and reducing DRK offensive APM.)

You best satisfy both worlds with, quite simply, a flick to the forehead for those who can't understand that increased uptime increases average DPS, and two charges of Plunge. Failing that, though, 2 charges of Shadowstride would still be better than a single charge of each.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Yeah I 100% agree with that one. Its kind of whack how we actually used to have some interesting interaction (MP and Blood actions fed into each other for instance) and now we got... kinda nothing.

Doesnt have to return to the old days, but man even the PvP kits have more interesting and complex kit interactions with half the buttons. Kinda whack.

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Honestly some classes are much more enjoyable in pvp than in pve counterpart. What is fun in pvp is that casting time for spells isn't 2.5 seconds. Most casters have insanely fast casting speeds of like 1 second or 1.33 which feels super refreshing because you generally have a faster gameplay and a bit more complex combos than pve. On top of that there are cool abilities and just feels good. But pvp suffers from balance because devs made some classes very strong consistently throughout the patches while others suffered whole expansion.

As we speak about "more complex" combos, they sadly did nerf PvP a bit to make it more accessible for newer players. This is another thing that I started to hate with DT. While pvp mode is still fun, they are slowly leaning towards pve path.

Red mage got nerfed by removing black / white stance. This is what made this class hard to play. Now it's easy with loads of shields and insane survival-ability.
Gunbreaker had junctions and this was pain for everyone so they decided to make it super easy now and mega broken for patches. Nobody likes to play against this savage thing.
Astrologian - don't want to talk about this monstrosity.

I'm not saying that I don't like class changes but this effectively makes it that everybody spams 2-3 classes in every single ranked game because of how good they are and this creates a boring gameplay. I am tired of seeing red mage, astro and gnb in every game.
There are still skills needed for monk or others (which makes them rarer to see) but in general their trend is slowly getting up here as well.

Edit: I am also not sure the reason behind adding two additional ranks for pvp when the game mode is already dead and less and less players with each patch? I guess this is made for JP since they are always active but NA/EU dies pretty fast.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You didn't have to, though. If you could legitimately use it as a mobility tool, it was a damage LOSS to waste that opportunity by saving it for raidbuffs and instead walking back.

On a 200p skill, using your gap-closer under raidbuffs could net you an extra 25 potency, tops. Each GCD for which you were forced to use a ranged filler instead of continuing your optimal damage would cost most tanks over 300 effective-potency.

Removing the potency only simply offers, in effect, one extra charge of mobility (since you would otherwise face damage loss from overcapping it), negligible when already at 2 charges. The primary changes were to APM and cognitive load (no longer being rewarded for knowing whether there was a gap to close within your skill's recast time).

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Plunge was 150 potency iirc. You were missing a lot more than 25 potency by using it outside of personal, raid buff and potentially pot windows. Overcapping also only applies to WAR and DRK. Due to having 1 minute personal buffs, PLD and GNB would never overcap if spending all of their charges in personal buff windows and could never use their gap closer freely without incurring a damage loss.

Thanks to not having a personal DPS buff, WAR at least gets 1 free charge to use wherever it wants per 2 minutes. PLD does not, though.

Regardless of how big or small the loss is, it's still stupid to give players movement utility and punish them for using it. Let the gap closer be a gap closer.

Again, that makes no more sense than "let the barrier be a barrier, separate from any heal", "let the damage be just damage, separate from any buff generation", etc.

By the time we worry so much about the 0.4% overall damage, well beneath Crit/Dhit variance in otherwise identical runs, as to demand that every mobility tool be identically single-function... what job flavor or variance are we even permitted?

I unbound shadowstride. I’d sooner have no gap closer than an uncool one.

"Man, I sure do hate the dark magic teleport which falls in line with a lot of what DRK does already thematically, I sure wish they'd go back to the generic front flip move."

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Originally Posted by Volkien

"Man, I sure do hate the dark magic teleport which falls in line with a lot of what DRK does already thematically, I sure wish they'd go back to the generic front flip move."

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Because magic teleport totally isn't generic at all
/s

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

Dark Arts, pls. :(

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Originally Posted by Volkien

[...]No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword.[...]

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CaS existence makes it believable they're able to do just that lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volkien

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

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Probably half of DRK's animations that actually use the greatsword are like that. Bloodspiller grabs the sword in one hand, spins it in full 360s multiple times, and then does a jump and downward slash with both hands.

Admittedly, yes, and I'm aware that part of the fantasy of DRK is that they can lift this heavy chunk of steel with ease, but with CaS specifically, it starts off with an upward swing which builds the momentum allowing us to jump and spin with the sword. Bloodspiller is similar, but that starts off with our character readying the spin in anticipation. Plunge was so instantaneous that it was jarring.

I realise I'm being nitpicky with gameplay animations, which need to be fast and snappy. But part of DRK's identity is that the sword should always FEEL heavy to the player. Plunge never felt heavy to me.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Because magic teleport totally isn't generic at all
/s

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Eh, it's carried by a vastly better animation in a game where its nearest competition is sprouting wings and sorta rocketing across the arena, powerwalking at the enemy, or doing a slow powerslide.

Of all the things DRK has lost over the years, plunge is so low on the list that I'm pretty sure Dark Dance is above it for me.

I'm still salty about scourge, literally the absolute best animation DRK has had, and one of the best of any job period. I also miss the priority-based rotation it had in HW. I hate priority-based rotations, personally, but I miss having a tank that had a priority rotation instead of all being the same shade of 'variations of ARR Warrior.'

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I'm still salty about scourge, literally the absolute best animation DRK has had, and one of the best of any job period.

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So true, Scourge is better than the entire current 123 DRK combo. It really sells the weight of the weapon while still looking like your character is badass enough to still swing it around with relative ease. 10/10 animation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volkien

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

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Im gonna be blunt, this is a ship of theseus scenario for me. After having almost all of the original skills and themes ripped out of Dark Knight and replaced, is it still truly Dark Knight?

The main visual appeal for me was all these fast-paced attacks - the frontflip helmbreaker reminded me of Guts from Berserk, which I'm sure the job originally took inspirations from. Plunge was also the first and original tank dash in FFXIV, so there simply was a fair bit of sentimental value lost with the replacement.

Between losing both classic and nostalgic visual design, as well as any and all nuance over the years since at least 5.0, it would feel weird to not feel a wee bit sorry for the old guard of Dark Knight players.

Gonna be 100% honest here, I like Shadowstride more than plunge.
That said, I don't understand why the job couldn't have both buttons.WAR has 4 gap closers between two buttons and the world didn't end, and plunge itself was very much a load-bearing ogcd in terms of giving dark knight buttons to press outside of the burst.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

So true, Scourge is better than the entire current 123 DRK combo. It really sells the weight of the weapon while still looking like your character is badass enough to still swing it around with relative ease. 10/10 animation.

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Choosing souleater over delirium or power slash was a huge mistake for the combo finisher as well. Likewise the DT 1-2-3 combo in delirium is an exercise in "We don't know what we're doing" design. It's so extra, and yet it happens during a time where you literally can't see any of it because it's covered under a billion other spell graphics. Truly missed the mark on it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Im gonna be blunt, this is a ship of theseus scenario for me. After having almost all of the original skills and themes ripped out of Dark Knight and replaced, is it still truly Dark Knight?

The main visual appeal for me was all these fast-paced attacks - the frontflip helmbreaker reminded me of Guts from Berserk, which I'm sure the job originally took inspirations from. Plunge was also the first and original tank dash in FFXIV, so there simply was a fair bit of sentimental value lost with the replacement.

Between losing both classic and nostalgic visual design, as well as any and all nuance over the years since at least 5.0, it would feel weird to not feel a wee bit sorry for the old guard of Dark Knight players.

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For me, I will never, ever, complain about any utility skill that has the damage component removed. I still remember all the problems that the 50 billion stuns caused for fight design back in ARR and HW. There's a reason interject was made as a skill, and it's because a utility skill had damage on it.

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

Good riddance to gap closers with damage otherwise. You are not, and never will be, missed. It is literally the primary reason I hate playing WAR and PLD right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volkien

I realise I'm being nitpicky with gameplay animations, which need to be fast and snappy. But part of DRK's identity is that the sword should always FEEL heavy to the player. Plunge never felt heavy to me.

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To me Plunge feels heavy exactly because of the fast animation. Heavy sword = more gravity. Mabye the starting animation does look a bit fast, but as you said, it's nitpick argument.

Meanwhile look at Shadowstride being lame af with a dash that feels floaty/weightless and our DRK weirdly spin the sword a bit.

I rather have 0 damage Plunge than Shadowstride. It's not even a cool dark magic teleport ala ascian teleport.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taranok

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

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While I'm fully on board with the idea of bringing back a big, weighty, helmbreaker style attack for DRK, we're running the risk of it being WAR 2.0 even MORE with something like this. Adding to the homogenization of the jobs (especially the tanks) which ideally we move AWAY from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taranok

For me, I will never, ever, complain about any utility skill that has the damage component removed. I still remember all the problems that the 50 billion stuns caused for fight design back in ARR and HW. There's a reason interject was made as a skill, and it's because a utility skill had damage on it.

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

Good riddance to gap closers with damage otherwise. You are not, and never will be, missed. It is literally the primary reason I hate playing WAR and PLD right now.

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People have been throwing out suggestions for ways to keep the original gap closers since their removal was announced, the simplest ones being just removing the damage or adding a minimum range requirement. It isn't rocket science, and making new skills to replace them is CS3 making more work for themselves for no reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volkien

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

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Originally, DRK's skillset formed around two colors: near-black blue, and red. Near black-blue gathered and manifested additional force (the manifested echo of magic), while red substituted reality around the DRK (pacted Void, untethered subjectivity/creation). This is why the red skills generally could move far more freely, allowing an easy swing with one hand (Scourge), can easy slash and draw-cut opposite gravity (Souleater), cartwheels the whole damn thing into a propeller (Bloodspiller), or just generally moves the thing as if it were just a thin bastard sword (Scarlet combo), etc.

Carve and Spit and Plunge were more of the latter, just without the overlying colors that were by then saved for GCD skills, while old Delirium (a GCD, which would otherwise be colored), Heavy Slash, etc. had to move with the weight of the blade.

For better or worse, the visual identity of DRK was purposely built largely around that of Guts from Berserk, and Plunge is a direct homage to that character. But the magical aspects of DRK are exactly what make it make sense.

If there's some overlap with Warrior, that's probably because (A) Guts is a Warrior with a greatsword and (B) there are only so many ways to visually distinguish someone able to channel aether to directly or indirectly make them a superhuman and leverage that capacity to hit harder/faster with a big weapon.

I'm on the team that movement abilities should not be tied to a damage component.

Because by doing so, they stop from being emergency buttons to move faster somewhere and become requirements to add into the rotation, even when you don't need to move.

The only situation I can see this working well with a damage component is in the case of SAM's Hissatsu movement actons, because there's a better way to spend the resources for it if you don't need to move.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I'm on the team that movement abilities should not be tied to a damage component.

Because by doing so, they stop from being emergency buttons to move faster somewhere and become requirements to add into the rotation, even when you don't need to move.

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They don't stop being greater reward A to become lesser reward B. They simply have a fall-back use that, if stars align to be best done at the same time as their primary use, puts a kit slightly ahead. (Or, if stupidly tuned around all possible charges being dumped inside of personal buffs and raid buffs both, then punish the job when less lucky, at which point if it were ever frequent and significant enough to be statistically noticeable, would then result in buffing something else by the difference in compensation.)


There's a far better solution for a damage-bearing utility skill feeling overly reduced to its mere damage than trimming down every skill into its identical bare bones: Make there more commonly more to the fight than mere damage. Don't give nearly-arena-sized hitboxes. Do give knockbacks, leap-aways, and/or more distant add-spawns. れ



A gap-closer on its own was an easier way to handle knockbacks than the likes of a combo-breaking Enpi or Req phase, devaluing what came before. Now we have no such complexity for gap-closers to devalue.

• Until we have more gaps than gap-closers, they're just a Simon Says mechanic: See mechanic type X. --> Use the mechanic-type-X-undoer button.
• Until then, gap-closers exist just to make being melee feel less constrained by being melee, just as the constant BLM simplifications attempted to make the previously most Caster-ly Caster feel like less of a Caster.
• Until then, it's effectively a button that's carried on your bar to amount to a cutscene of being pushed back but facing no consequences for being pushed back. It's Arms Length... but ad infinitum, and without needing any preemptive action.

Now, compare that to what a damage-bearing gap-closer offers:

• Because it actually has a potential opportunity cost that could otherwise be sacrificed, its use is partly preemptive, effectively reducing the leniency you'd otherwise have through which to undo mechanics by a full charge. Such rewards fight knowledge.
• Because it actually has use beyond merely undoing mechanical consequence, it contributes to APM regardless of context, instead of sitting idle until your next cue.

More importantly, though, having some jobs that can respond thoughtlessly to movement opportunities while others have to more going on around their movement-bearing skills adds variety. If we're to remove that variety, then it makes sense to at least go in the direction that offers the most skill expression (which people can then choose to interact with or not, since at least there's still variety in practice), instead of the way that removes cognitive load / gameplay / skill expression for everyone regardless.

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Just like positionals, cast-times, branching decision paths, resources that can actually be managed to at least some degree, oGCDs to be woven in (some at start of gap, others occasionally at gap's end), and the like, damage-bearing movement skills (or, movement-bearing attacks, whichever name you prefer) expand their moment of play and widen their interaction relative to complete freedom. If we're to remove that skill expression from some jobs, it should at least be done in the interest of variety and should be damn sure to replace by other means what skill expression was denied that job in swapping to completely discrete mobility skills.