7.2 "formula" for Savage needs to CHANGE

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Literally the opposite.

If there was no lockout, the content would become irrelevant infinitely more quickly because people would get BiS and quit faster, the fights would become completely trivialised faster, and people would spam the fights and get bored of them faster. Savage is balanced around you not having the gear. I don't understand why you're so convinced that you can't do savage unless you have tome/savage gear? How do you think people clear week 1?

I do think they should change the 2/1/0 chest system to allow people to reclear with friends after they've already cleared though. IMO taking up to 2 players who have already cleared should not reduce the number of chests, 3-4 players should be 1 chest, 5-8 players should be 0 chest. There would be too many people buying lootmaster clears if there were no restrictions at all but the current system makes it way too obnoxious to play with friends if they need a fill.

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So, you just say that playing 1 day outta 7 for 6 months does not? I fail to see the reasoning behind it. By the time the tier is unlocked the new tier drops or people lose any incentive to farm it.

There are 21 jobs that need to be geared and again, I don't personally need a company to dictate when I should be bored or not. That should be entirely up to me to decide.

Also, this is not about being unable to do the fight or not. Of course, I can, but I want to see my efforts rewarded. Instead of SE coming in and saying.. NOPE! you cannot roll/ play more than once/ week. Bad bad...

As for loot master, I see it all the time now. If they got the gil and people don't need to roll/gear up, who am I to say anything and how is that my business to begin with? I can join or not.. simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

So, you just say that playing 1 day outta 7 for 6 months does not? I fail to see the reasoning behind it. By the time the tier is unlocked the new tier drops or people lose any incentive to farm it.

There are 21 jobs that need to be geared and again, I don't personally need a company to dictate when I should be bored or not. That should be entirely up to me to decide.

Also, this is not about being unable to do the fight or not. Of course, I can, but I want to see my efforts rewarded. Instead of SE coming in and saying.. NOPE! you cannot roll/ play more than once/ week. Bad bad...

As for loot master, I see it all the time now. If they got the gil and people don't need to roll/gear up, who am I to say anything and how is that my business to begin with? I can join or not.. simple as that.

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There are 21 jobs but they absolutely do not need to be geared up again unless you're planning to do the 7.3 ultimate on release on all 21 jobs. This is brain rot and this is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

There are 21 jobs that need to be geared

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there isn't 21 sets because gear is shared between most jobs. kinda hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Also, this is not about being unable to do the fight or not. Of course, I can, but I want to see my efforts rewarded. Instead of SE coming in and saying.. NOPE! you cannot roll/ play more than once/ week. Bad bad...

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can totally agree with you on this. treating players like kids isn't the way to go.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

There are 21 jobs but they absolutely do not need to be geared up again unless you're planning to do the 7.3 ultimate on release on all 21 jobs. This is brain rot and this is the problem.

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Maybe I do, and I fail to see the issue and why SE gets to decide what I do with my spare time.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Maybe I do, and I fail to see the issue and why SE gets to decide what I do with my spare time.

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You should probably get to work on leveling the rest of them then. :rolleyes:

The longest time to wait should be a 2-3 weeks more then you need for a full set with tome, at most. I literally cant play with more then one job... and i really doubt too many players gear ALL the roles to the max...

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

You should probably get to work on leveling the rest of them then. :rolleyes:

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I have alts .. since you can't also use more than 1 build/ role. so.. your homework is incomplete! :p

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I have alts .. since you can't also use more than 1 build/ role. so.. your homework is incomplete! :p

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Then the lockout/tome cap isn't an issue.

In 8 weeks of reclears I geared up gnb and viper (without alt), so I can play GNB/DRK/PLD/WAR/VIPER/NINJA (after my FRU clear to have the weapons)
with an alt, you also have all of the healers + SAM/MNK for example, in 8 weeks

to me with an alt, you have enough time to gear nearly all jobs before the ultimate comes out (with "only" 6-8 weapons before ultimate clear) so yeah I think gearing speed is fine, but the loots dont feel rewarding, wheter your a raider or a casual (even more so if your a casual) and thats the problem

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I still dont see what’s the problem with tomestone cap/savage loot lockout ?

I hope every person that have a problem with it, have all ultimate cleared on multiple jobs (on patch) ?

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> People are asking for changes in loot system so they can prog and clear with other jobs
> I'll ask for these clears before said changes

Anyway, BiS gear can be used for every content

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

In 8 weeks of reclears I geared up gnb and viper (without alt), so I can play GNB/DRK/PLD/WAR/VIPER/NINJA (after my FRU clear to have the weapons)
with an alt, you also have all of the healers + SAM/MNK for example, in 8 weeks

to me with an alt, you have enough time to gear nearly all jobs before the ultimate comes out (with "only" 6-8 weapons before ultimate clear) so yeah I think gearing speed is fine, but the loots dont feel rewarding, wheter your a raider or a casual (even more so if your a casual) and thats the problem

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> If you get unlucky, you need 8 reclears for one weapon.
> "In Final Fantasy we try to make it our goal that players don't need alts", Yoshi-P

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Originally Posted by brinn12

> People are asking for changes in loot system so they can prog and clear with other jobs
> I'll ask for these clears before said changes

Anyway, BiS gear can be used for every content

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Yeah, 10s faster expert is needed and feels good

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Originally Posted by brinn12

> If you get unlucky, you need 8 reclears for one weapon.
> "In Final Fantasy we try to make it our goal that players don't need alts", Yoshi-P

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As I said, you dony need gear to do every content aside from ultimate/savage criterion and even for ultimates, I doubt there is more than 0.1% people doing an on patch ultimates on several jobs

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Just curious what folks can come up with, but with 0 changes to current combat system, what about the fight mechanics can be changed beyond the usual dance & dps?

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Go back and play through T6-T8, A5S, A6S.

I just love how the remaining playerbase always just argues about the rewards from the raids when everyone else already quit because of how stale the fights themselves are.

There is no hope for SE to improve FF14 because the silent majority of people that could give them valuable advice already quit.

Every single person I met in other games who quit FF14 talked about how boring the raids and the jobs are, not whether they can gear 21 jobs by week 30.

Who gives a **** if you can gear multiple jobs if the jobs are all carbon copies of each other and the fight is basically the same whatever job you play since it's all the same dance???? LOL

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

Go back and play through T6-T8, A5S, A6S.

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Modern FFXIV jobs would not function in these raids. They're absolutely miserable to play if you can't keep close to 100% uptime. Most jobs would require a significant rework to make their rotations less rigid.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Modern FFXIV jobs would not function in these raids. They're absolutely miserable to play if you can't keep close to 100% uptime. Most jobs would require a significant rework to make their rotations less rigid.

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No they aren't. Just disengage. FF14 players have brainrot these days where the moment they can't get 100% uptime they kick and scream like a baby.

They have made it even easier than ever to disengage with the boss and people still whine and whine when they have to lose half a GCD.

Every melee job other than MNK has at least one ranged attack, some of which are even damage optimal and part of the core rotation. Every non-melee job other than BLM has infinite mobility compared to HW era.

Like if you're really crying about it being miserable to play in 2025 you need to go back to playing 2.5s cast time healers and PLD without holy spirit and see how you feel.

It's be pretty neat to see a gimmick fight like Halicarnassus Savage again.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Getting BiS for one generally means that you're 95% of the way to BiS for multiple other jobs though. This is a pretty disingenuous argument. More like "21 jobs and it still takes up to 8 weeks to get BiS on up to 4 of them".

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It's more disingenuous to pretend that that last 5% taking 8 weeks is okay. You are totally right that with our 5 roles that a lot of BiS carries over, but the most important piece of loot, the weapon, takes way too long. This loot system would be far better if the most important piece of loot was easier to get. The coffer was a right step but I think we need more measures than that. It's just too RNG heavy to be reliable and satisfying to grind for.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

But the question is - why?

Let's say we go ahead and implement this. Now we're more overgeared week 1, so savage is even easier, we get BiS faster... Then we wait 4 months for ultimate and you don't do it anyway? People are complaining that they aren't getting gear fast enough but what are they using it for? You don't need BiS to play a job.

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I can answer this. It's fun to gear up and become stronger. For a lot of people the most fun part of an rpg is character progression. Numbers going up is a simple but effective way to make the game feel better and more fun. At the moment it just feels too slow to gear for a lot of people.

Of course you would have to research how many players actually want this compared to not wanting this. But I think it's completely fine to express the opinion that gearing feels too slow in a game where you can play multiple roles, but it takes 2 months to gear one of them fully. Sometimes people want to play more than 1 job and not spend a third of a year only to come out with 2 geared jobs. It's totally okay for this game to have retention mechanics like weekly caps and loot lockouts, it's a live service game after all. I just think getting the weapon and augmented tome gear takes way too long. Between there not being enough ways to get twines and the low cap of 450, I think we could slightly increase the frequency of either of these while not making people progress too fast.

My suggestion would be a 600 cap as a first small increase to see if people like it. Twines I think should also be obtainable in more ways cause that is by far the "gear" that takes the longest to get outside of the weapon. Small steps. I don't immediately need a 900 tome cap or double the weapon coffers. Just slight changes to make gear feel better for multiple jobs. One of the things this game advertises is the fact you can play all jobs on 1 character after all.

I see a lot of people talking gameplay changes instead of gear changes. While I agree that the current raids might not be designed perfectly, I think people underestimate the enjoyment people get out of loot in a video game.

Between mounts, minions, titles and gear rewards, gear probably ranks 2nd in most desirable for an mmo player. Sure lots of people like getting just glamours as their "gear" reward, but many people love getting stronger even if it is just to do the same content but faster. Attach a good ilevel to more gear and you will see the activity of the content that drops it significantly increase. Do not underestimate the power of bigger number = more fun. It sounds stupid and corny as hell, but this is how mmo players have acted for decades, just look at parsing culture as one example.

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Originally Posted by Buttobi

Attach a good ilevel to more gear and you will see the activity of the content that drops it significantly increase. Do not underestimate the power of bigger number = more fun. It sounds stupid and corny as hell, but this is how mmo players have acted for decades, just look at parsing culture as one example.

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Taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts doesn't seem like a good way to make FF14 actually a non-shit game.

Regardless, yes, there should be a better RPG system in the endgame as well, but it needs to interact with gameplay, not just give you higher numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

Taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts doesn't seem like a good way to make FF14 actually a non-shit game.

Regardless, yes, there should be a better RPG system in the endgame as well, but it needs to interact with gameplay, not just give you higher numbers.

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Basic rpg game design = taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts apparently?

But yes, higher numbers is just one part of a bigger whole. It is just one of many aspects they could improve.

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Originally Posted by Buttobi

Basic rpg game design = taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts apparently?

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"Bigger number = more fun" is literally taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts lmao

Sadly making people play through slop just because 92838 becomes 102097 is quintessentially MMO, and it's why MMO players only have themselves to blame since they just keep falling for slop after slop because their deficient brains need something to stimulate them.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

"Bigger number = more fun" is literally taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts lmao

Sadly making people play through slop just because 92838 becomes 102097 is quintessentially MMO, and it's why MMO players only have themselves to blame since they just keep falling for slop after slop because their deficient brains need something to stimulate them.

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You don't need to be an addict to enjoy the dopamine from playing a game. Dopamine is released by anything that gives you pleasure. Whether you are dopamine deficient is totally irrelevant because a person who isn't can enjoy a game through these dopamine receptors just the same.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

Taking advantage of dopamine-deficient addicts doesn't seem like a good way to make FF14 actually a non-shit game.

Regardless, yes, there should be a better RPG system in the endgame as well, but it needs to interact with gameplay, not just give you higher numbers.

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It's not even about dopamine. It's as simple as you are rewarded for your effort. You should be rewarded for it if you put in enough time and commitment.

I am sure it's extremely satisfactory to be stuck in the same role at your job where you get no pay raise, and nobody appreciates your effort no matter how well you do your job, right? Probably the next time you ask for a pay raise your boss should tell yo: "Naaah, you don't need that dopamine effect. You are good as you are".

Numbers going up is one thing, but if gear had more to it than just numbers, perhaps it could elevate the design at least a little. Gear is a powerful tool to keep people involved into content. Then the rest of the work is to actually make said content fun and engaging again instead of the current slop that we've been eating since SB/ShB.

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Originally Posted by Buttobi

I see a lot of people talking gameplay changes instead of gear changes. While I agree that the current raids might not be designed perfectly, I think people underestimate the enjoyment people get out of loot in a video game.

Between mounts, minions, titles and gear rewards, gear probably ranks 2nd in most desirable for an mmo player. Sure lots of people like getting just glamours as their "gear" reward, but many people love getting stronger even if it is just to do the same content but faster. Attach a good ilevel to more gear and you will see the activity of the content that drops it significantly increase. Do not underestimate the power of bigger number = more fun. It sounds stupid and corny as hell, but this is how mmo players have acted for decades, just look at parsing culture as one example.

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I'm gonna say it again but at least at the casual level (not to upset the balance at raiding level) at least, we need dungeon loot to be relevant, we need semi rng stats and more spicy things than just yet another DET/DH/CRT+50 that feels like nothing, so that we actually want to go back into the content to get possible improvements. We need to enter raids when they release with dungeon loot, and slowly make our way up with NM raid gear and savage clear loot + tome.

Finally, we also need to find a system where tome gear is paid and unlocked differently: for example you pay 600 to access chest pieces, and then 250 for all the remaining chest pieces that you'd like, essentially keeping the initial price the exact same than it is, but making access to other jobs significantly easier after that first hurdle.

Hell over time they can give us additional 3-4 chest at some point on savage or have it appear like cloud of darkness additional bonus.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Numbers going up is one thing, but if gear had more to it than just numbers, perhaps it could elevate the design at least a little. Gear is a powerful tool to keep people involved into content. Then the rest of the work is to actually make said content fun and engaging again instead of the current slop that we've been eating since SB/ShB.



I'm gonna say it again but at least at the casual level (not to upset the balance at raiding level) at least, we need dungeon loot to be relevant, we need semi rng stats and more spicy things than just yet another DET/DH/CRT+50 that feels like nothing, so that we actually want to go back into the content to get possible improvements. We need to enter raids when they release with dungeon loot, and slowly make our way up with NM raid gear and savage clear loot + tome.

Finally, we also need to find a system where tome gear is paid and unlocked differently: for example you pay 600 to access chest pieces, and then 250 for all the remaining chest pieces that you'd like, essentially keeping the initial price the exact same than it is, but making access to other jobs significantly easier after that first hurdle.

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IMO crafted gear is one of the main problems in this respect. It completely removes any form of gear progression from FFXIV. It invalidates all of your previous progress every time a new recipe is added and relegates pretty much anything that isn't crafted, savage or tome gear to glam. The current crafted gear that we have should be catch-up gear IMO. It absolutely shouldn't be stronger than the BiS set from the previous tier.

Reducing cost for additional pieces after you've bought your first one is the only reasonable solution I've seen to making it easier to gear alts without completely ruining savage. IDK what these people asking for BiS in 2 weeks are smoking.

One of the biggest problems people faced with Chaotic was how under-geared casuals were for it.

Maybe the patch that adds the Chaotic should be the removal of tome/savage lockout restrictions, and make augments even easier to obtain.

Yoship addressed a question about tome cap last year, it's a business decision. Basically your monthly sub does not buy you unlimited access to progress, they stretch it so you stay subbed if you want to gear up more. It's the same with savage lockouts and the like until the .x8 patch. I'm surprised people haven't figured this out after 10 years. Sure we get mid-patch things like Chaotic to basically farm unlimited 730 left sides, which is awesome to encourage people to learn and farm that fight since it's 24 man savage-like. They done things like this in the past with right side in jewelry in HW too in the mid-way patch.

This is common with any sub or even F2P games, you can't progress too much in a given week or month. If I buy a pass membership to F2P online game, I can't get all the way to the end spending 100+ hours just because I paid $15, I can only hit all the rewards if I play daily until the end of the 3 months kind of things.

Everybody has figured it out.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but it would be nice if we could gear alt classes up a bit easier. Then we would have more opportunity to flex and learn the fights for different roles.

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Originally Posted by technole

Yoship addressed a question about tome cap last year, it's a business decision. Basically your monthly sub does not buy you unlimited access to progress, they stretch it so you stay subbed if you want to gear up more. It's the same with savage lockouts and the like until the .x8 patch. I'm surprised people haven't figured this out after 10 years. Sure we get mid-patch things like Chaotic to basically farm unlimited 730 left sides, which is awesome to encourage people to learn and farm that fight since it's 24 man savage-like. They done things like this in the past with right side in jewelry in HW too in the mid-way patch.

This is common with any sub or even F2P games, you can't progress too much in a given week or month. If I buy a pass membership to F2P online game, I can't get all the way to the end spending 100+ hours just because I paid $15, I can only hit all the rewards if I play daily until the end of the 3 months kind of things.

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To me it's very weird that you take more time to "gear yourself for the hardest ig content" in FF14 (8weeks or 4weeks with alt) than in Wow (mythic raids are done in 2-3 weeks)

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

To me it's very weird that you take more time to "gear yourself for the hardest ig content" in FF14 (8weeks or 4weeks with alt) than in Wow (mythic raids are done in 2-3 weeks)

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More like it's up to 8-weeks, especially if RNG doesn't work out for the free weapon drop over the coffer. It does certainly encourage getting an early savage clear so that more gear and books are available sooner. I figure that's been their intent ever since they got the tuning correct for savage at end of HW because they make new crafted gear readily accessible and the baseline to be able to clear week one.

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Originally Posted by Mijeme

http://https://imgur.com/a/kPxsu7Q
https://i.imgur.com/3ARZvYC.jpeg

Subscription based game.

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Nice strawman.

Now write a well reasoned argument.

The Formula for everything needs to go. There's nary a single element of this game nowadays that doesn't follow the same strict and tedious recipe every iteration.

There is a small copium can that with good reception of chaotic having basically everything (but weapons) they will redesign reward system in 7.2 onwards

i would but the topic is dead. I will next week when everyone whines about it again.

We'll have to wait for the Live Letter and see if they're going to make any changes at all.

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Originally Posted by Buttobi

21 jobs and it still takes 8 weeks to get BiS on one of them.

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I'm fine with it taking 8 weeks to get max power on a given job. Limiting maximal power is the whole point of time-gating. Build fight to be just barely doable at minimum item level, and gear in excess of that gradually nerfs the fight over time. For those who want the full challenge, there are Minimum Item Level runs.

I'm not fine with it taking another 8 weeks to get BiS on a second job. That shit serves no purpose except to make the "all jobs on one character" selling point of XIV increasingly inapplicable as one nears the upper edge of content difficulty.