Would you consider greedy DPS Mechanics on Tanks/Healers good or bad?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This has nothing to do with the MP and TP system

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

And jobs that use MP are too tired/don't have enough aether to use spells. Literally the same concept.

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Yeah... I think I'm gonna call it here. Good luck though.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I mean, clearly there were enough people that felt and found them different that the devs kept MP and got rid of TP right. So it's not that crazy some do see a difference. Unfortunately, they have made MP more and more irrelevant each xpac. There are some instances where on a full BIS, full DPS Sage build, MP is slightly negative but assuming you don't have to raise you can still keep full uptime without running out. But thats a total niche scenario and not really representative of how obsolete MP has become.

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They didn't get rid of MP while keeping TP for any reasons specific to MP or TP themselves. They simply combined Gamewide-Gauge #1 and Gamewide-Gauge #2 into one thing and essentially removed resource concerns from all non-rez-capable classes, with the caveat that, because they're in the same role as Raise-capable classes, certain non-Raise-capable casters will also have to hit a bloat-button on CD (Lucid).

I.e., resource maintenance was purged from the game (replaced with, at most, hit bloat skill on CD) and we were left with some rare cost to using AoE heals in old content (pre-oGCD-heal-bloat) and... effectively... rez charges.

@ Mikey: That said, Mana Shift came at cost to one's own MP and used a % of current MP instantly, while Goad had no cost and gave a flat amount over time. Goad was therefore on paper --and often enough in practice-- far simpler/foolproofed an ability. I can see why one would prefer the design of Mana Shift over Goad.

(@Ath: That just has nothing to do with MP over TP, at least in TP's ARR+ iteration, which was just a duplicate of MP but for non-casters. The last time they were different, even Monks used MP for stances and TP was generated from basic attacks.)

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Energy drain, old tank stances and cleric stance, Shadowflare, pretty much any healer GCD dps tool, etc. Basically anything that trades a Tank/Healer's ability to do their role for personal damage gains.

I believe this sort of risk-reward system's usually seen as a good design in many games, but here it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag since you could be on the receiving end of another player who took it a step too far, and this game's content often heavily punishes parties for an individual's mistakes, especially with those roles since they're supposed to be the party's lifeline.

I personally think it's good to have, and I think at least one job for both roles could be designed around the concept for healthier job variety, but I've been wondering what others think of it.

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I don't think it'd hugely make a difference if healers and tanks unique outputs were constantly pushed, but... they aren't. And so having alternate direct-contribution spenders available to them for when there's not enough incoming damage to meaningfully leverage their unique outputs seems then to be a clearly good idea.

That said, I don't think it needs to be a black-and-white distinction of role-output vs. damage, nor does it necessarily need to require a additional buttons.

For instance, let's say that --rather realistically-- nuking an enemy as they're winding up a swing might suppress said swing, while nuking them while their defenses are beaten down might cause greater damage. Just with that difference in timing, bankable skills would allow you a degree of control between pure offense and mitigation and therefore your party a lever over risk and consequent reward. With how little suppression can you survive in order to burn the unit down earlier (thereby, say, skipping one of its key skills)? Or, as to be less dependent on bankability (and/or anti-synergy/redundancy between stagger and raidbuffs), allow positionals an impact, with attacks from certain positions at certain times further pushing towards stagger, immediate suppression, or immediate damage/armor-loss/max-HP-reduction (on an self-healing/rezzing enemy).

Or, simply allow for most things to be more naturally hybrids in keeping with their names, themes, and animations -- perhaps even splitting potency output between healing and damage based on how wounded the affected allies are, etc.. Let a CNJ, for instance, have a variety of elemental gauge-spenders such as Quake (more purely suppression and damage, but also able to LoS, knock back, or knock in/collect enemies), Tornado (damaging but also crowd-controlling or shielding against outside projectiles coming in and obscuring allies within), Downpour (slowing enemies but cleansing and --if enhanced-- cumulatively HoTing allies), etc. Let a SCH (or maybe better SGE) overpower a shield to cause it to also reflect damage back at its attacker. Let us leverage what is apparently there so that the effects seem to more naturally flow from theme instead of the theme just remaining a reskin of mostly identical effects.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They didn't get rid of MP while keeping TP for any reasons specific to MP or TP themselves. They simply combined Gamewide-Gauge #1 and Gamewide-Gauge #2 into one thing and essentially removed resource concerns from all non-rez-capable classes

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I would disagree with you here, simply because the evidence points to physical moves no longer cost TP while all spells still cost MP. If they had been combined all abilities would cost MP, regardless of them being melee but we don't see that. I don't understand why people are so willing to die on this hill lol. Just because the MP system has been nerfed to almost irrelevancy doesn't mean its gone like TP, and resource concerns are still a thing even in non rez classes. I haven't played DRK this expac but I'm pretty sure you can still overgreed and not have enough MP for a blackest night with upcoming tankbusters.

My take on this is that physical fatigue is annoying, in the same way where some games require you to consume food or you starve to death annoying, but magical abilities come with an expectation of a mana pool that gets depleted upon overuse, so there is an element of strategy and planning caster classes generally enjoy planning out. I would bet a lot of people would be really confused if SE got rid of MP in FFXIV instead of being relieved like when they got rid of TP.

Now, if you go extremely basic, you could say they are functionally the same, like a previous user said here, but to say there is no difference in them would be like saying oh well there is no difference in melee classes, they're all just DPS classes that hit the boss up close. And in a scenario where 2 people output the exact same kind of damage even though they are a DRG and a MNK (due to crit variation and mistakes, clips , etc...) there wouldnt be a difference functionally to killing a boss, sure. It's just a number. But players playing those classes certainly wouldn't feel that way about it, whether it be aesthetics, APM, or lore. Just like I don't feel like magic spells and physical attacks are identical.

You do have to draw a line at where you going to make a distinction personally, instead of just going any video game is a means of wasting time, therefore they all are identical to me. There are some you like more than others.

Rez and heals cost MP. All else is effectively net neutral or even positive given Lucid on CD, which is noticeably different from before TP's removal (at which time even purely maximally MP-efficient spell casting was at least mildly net negative).

Meanwhile, MP on DRK is just 3.333 charges shared across EoS, FoS, and TBN, and MP on PLD is just 5 charges shared across its every spell, each with CDR from certain skills.

There is otherwise no difference between one exclusive pool of resource and another unless one uses both and is therefore forced to rotate or balance between skill categories.

By lore, every attack thrown by anyone with an inkling or martial practice utilizes aether, which is identically depleted by physical and magical actions. By lore, the chief differences lie only in transiently deposited energy/potential, differing between the body's "channels" and its actual muscles and that aether can be sacrificed to conduct yet more potential through said channels (sacrificing a bit of internal aether to draw far more environmental aether through oneself), but even that magical distinction varies with discipline and the game has never and most likely will never create any gameplay related to that distinction. Instead, you have net neutral with bloat button and net neutral without, with any actual resource management replaced by, in essence, reset-on-death charges of Rez, Conf combo, Edges, or Fire casts.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Meanwhile, MP on DRK is just 3.333 charges shared across EoS, FoS, and TBN, and MP on PLD is just 5 charges shared across its every spell
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There is otherwise no difference between one exclusive pool of resource and another unless one uses both
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By lore, the chief differences lie only in transiently deposited energy/potential
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but even that magical distinction varies with discipline

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So there's the differences you see, and I've explained the differences I see. It's all good.

As of the removal of TP, none use both, and before that, only 1 has meaningfully done so since 1.23 (e.g., as anything more than a charge system for a single set of skills that lacks even incidental interaction with the opposite gauge). The lore distinctions are and always have been utterly divorced from gameplay and are more related to jobs than to MP as a whole.

You could make the point that MP and TP could be made fundamentally different (though you'd equally have to note then that, say, SAM TP is fundamentally different from Monk TP), but XIV hasn't made any such distinction in-game at the least since Sprint was rehauled, or, more meaningfully, since 1.17 (as post Yoshida 1.x made TP redundant to weaponskill CDs).

I think the removal of TP and keeping MP had less to do with balance, and more with series theming: MP exists in most Final Fantasy games, barring extremely old ones like early releases of FF1 that used a D&D-like spell slot system, that wouldn't work for a MMO anyway, therefor, MP must exist in FF XIV, with Lucid Dreaming existing so the FF flavor can exist while removing the resource management aspect of it.

It's the same reason an effect like Silence still affects only Casters, and physical Jobs can use their Weaponskills freely, because Silence has historically only affected spells, so it leads to Casters being unfairly targeted in some, admittedly rare, instances, always amuses me that Silence is usually Esuna-able too, like damn, I can use a spell to get rid of the status preventing me from casting spells? that's just thrilling isn't it?

Pacification exists as a form of 'silence' to physical jobs. But they're less seen vs silence IIRC.

I can't remember players ever being Pacified in any mainstay content since 1.x (e.g., outside of PotD, though I thought that Silences simultaneously, and maybe... Hildebrand), though Shield Swipe could previously pacify enemies, iirc. Tbf, though, I could have sworn no true Silence exists any longer in player kits in PvE, either -- that having been replaced with Interrupt. At this point Silence is mostly just in very old content, Pacification done and gone, and virtually all player-affecting CC just Stuns, no?

Edit: Forgot about Amon; don't think I've ever been hit by his Pacify.

I bring Silence up because it is commonly seen in World of Darkness, specifically the Slime adds for the Five-Headed Dragon will cast a raid-wide Silence if they aren't killed fast enough, every time it happens and I am on a Healer or a Caster, it's just "Cool, cool, I guess I am not doing anything for the next 10 seconds...", it's not a big deal by any stretch, it's just annoying, and there is very little you can do to prevent it other than targeting the Slimes and hoping enough people also do it.

The only time I semi-regularly see Pacification happens is when ST Amon summons first set of slimes that he'll detonate should any of reach him. First set gives pacification, while the second set gives silence. They happen less IMHO because how squishy these slimes are and clueless DF'er mostly consist of two type of players that contributes to the mechanic resolution: player that attack anything close to them, and the player who attacks anything that moves.

The silence from WoD 5-headed dragon on the other hand usually happens more often because while people know to spot and kill anything that moves, there are lesser who knew how to prevent the next set of slimes to spawn & join together creating larger un-killable slime (by standing on top of the poison puddle until they disappear, presumably this is why we get poison resistance buff should we kill the first slime that spawns).

Back to pacification... ah yeah uhh, I guess PotD trap? lmao. Either way I agree they're 'forgotten' in essence...

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Personally I'm okay with them but there is an overemphasis on damage in this game that bugs me. I'd also like to see more randomized mechanics that force downtime on random players so that outputting damage isn't the end all be all of the game. We need to find a way to diversify gameplay so that people can't obsess over their score on a third party site.

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That right there sums up much of my problem with the game. There is no way to get around "DPS above all" as long as bosses have enrage timers. Personally, I think enrage timers should go away. If you survive the mechanics, just loop them around. It would remove the need for jobs to be so balanced - which means that no one gets real utility.

To be fair, they've removed much of the need for utility entirely. There was a time when physical DPS would run out of TP or healers would run out of MP. There were jobs that could rectify that - BRD, if I recall, had TP, HP and MP songs. And AST had a card that could also regen TP or MP. I'm not saying those were the best abilities, but with removing TP and making it almost impossible to run out of MP (not counting rezzes), there's no need for that sort of utility.

Every fight has one goal - beat the boss before an arbitrary timer. As long as that remains, we can't expect much to change.

And we won't see randomized mechanics because of the aforementioned enrage timers. And the few battles that have a "this or that" mechanic isn't the randomization that I think some people might be talking about. Some fights are scripted as:

Mechanic A -> B -> C or D -> E -> F -> unused C or D -> G -> Enrage

I'd like to see bosses with G->A->C->G->F->A->C Maybe you don't even see D or E. Maybe you see Mechanic G 5 times.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

That right there sums up much of my problem with the game. There is no way to get around "DPS above all" as long as bosses have enrage timers. Personally, I think enrage timers should go away. If you survive the mechanics, just loop them around. It would remove the need for jobs to be so balanced - which means that no one gets real utility.

To be fair, they've removed much of the need for utility entirely. There was a time when physical DPS would run out of TP or healers would run out of MP. There were jobs that could rectify that - BRD, if I recall, had TP, HP and MP songs. And AST had a card that could also regen TP or MP. I'm not saying those were the best abilities, but with removing TP and making it almost impossible to run out of MP (not counting rezzes), there's no need for that sort of utility.

Every fight has one goal - beat the boss before an arbitrary timer. As long as that remains, we can't expect much to change.

And we won't see randomized mechanics because of the aforementioned enrage timers. And the few battles that have a "this or that" mechanic isn't the randomization that I think some people might be talking about. Some fights are scripted as:

Mechanic A -> B -> C or D -> E -> F -> unused C or D -> G -> Enrage

I'd like to see bosses with G->A->C->G->F->A->C Maybe you don't even see D or E. Maybe you see Mechanic G 5 times.

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Yeah I'm a big proponent of making RNG battles where a boss may have a set of 15-20 mechanics but only executes 9 or 10 of them in a relatively random order. It would make for a fresher design. At least for easier fights, once you get to ultimates it would exponentially increase the prog time. Perhaps the same mechanics always play out but in a random order within each phase.

yeah the damage being everything is an extremely complicated problem. The issue is again ultimates, they are designed to test your skill and well quite frankly executing your rotation to perfection is that skill. So if you remove enrage timers then all of sudden you are allowed to make mistakes, which shouldn't be allowed to happen too much in an ultimate.

But if one single ultimate has a tight enrage timer, then all jobs have to be balanced to be viable, thus landing us in the same predicament, unless SE finally decides not all jobs are viable for ultimates and all other content gets enrages removed so all jobs are viable. In order to make up for this easing of difficulty in savage without enrage timers they could probably increase the frequency and complexity of mechanics.

At the end of the day they have to do something, because even if their combat "experiments" like we've speculated here turn out to be terrible, its better to take that risk than leaving us permanently bored like we are now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They didn't get rid of MP while keeping TP for any reasons specific to MP or TP themselves. They simply combined Gamewide-Gauge #1 and Gamewide-Gauge #2 into one thing and essentially removed resource concerns from all non-rez-capable classes, with the caveat that, because they're in the same role as Raise-capable classes, certain non-Raise-capable casters will also have to hit a bloat-button on CD (Lucid).

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I'm pretty sure that they removed TP as part of their crusade against anything in the game that could cause friction between players.

You can fully manage your own MP all by yourself, Mana Shift helps but isn't normally needed. Meanwhile, you cannot manage your own TP entirely by yourself. Invigorate isn't enough to plug the drain, you need Goad to continue functioning, it would be like if every caster was big MP negative and Lucid Dreaming is changed into something you use on other people, so you need other people to manage your MP so that you can play the game.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

That right there sums up much of my problem with the game. There is no way to get around "DPS above all" as long as bosses have enrage timers. Personally, I think enrage timers should go away. If you survive the mechanics, just loop them around.

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If you do that, how exactly would they stop you from infinitely raising people and just zombie through all forms of content no matter the difficulty?

If enrage doesn't exist, the only way to slow down or halt progress would be to stuff harder content (extreme and above) with more and more instant wipe body checks.

I think enrage prevents silly strats, but that isn't the worst thing, I think most important element is that it ensures the DD role is needed (dps checks in general). Otherwise you would probably see even more all tank or mostly tanks and a healer comps. No enrage and a boss that can self heal though, that's uh... Pretty bad combo lol.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

@ Mikey: That said, Mana Shift came at cost to one's own MP and used a % of current MP instantly, while Goad had no cost and gave a flat amount over time. Goad was therefore on paper --and often enough in practice-- far simpler/foolproofed an ability. I can see why one would prefer the design of Mana Shift over Goad.

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Whilst i did not explicitly mention it, I did kind of elude to the fact when I asked about why BLM was named specifically as being the one Mana Shift was fun with and not the other casters, basically coming down to BLM having infinite MP and SMN and RDM already being MP negative, so why cut into that further with Mana Shift.

There is an argument there that you could use BRD/MCH MP refreshes, but couldn't you then just use the refresh to restore the MP directly from that. There is also a case there where, you can gain the benefit of both Mana Shift and MP refresh, but did anyone need that much MP restoration? If people are dying that frequently, you would probably wipe eventually anyway, just due to attrition.

So, whilst in general yes, there is a cost, in the scenario of the BLM using it, there is no cost.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think enrage prevents silly strats, but that isn't the worst thing, I think most important element is that it ensures the DD role is needed (dps checks in general). Otherwise you would probably see even more all tank or mostly tanks and a healer comps. No enrage and a boss that can self heal though, that's uh... Pretty bad combo lol.

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There is something they used to do a lot more before which was adds to burn down as a DPS check, and sometimes not just trivial stuff. O7S for example comes to mind not only with the pentagram adds (if you fuck up but want to recover) but also with the little planes tethered to DPS, but that's an example among many.

Friction and risk vs reward is always a good thing.

Healers & Tanks really do not have "risk vs reward" anymore, Healers can heal and do damage at the same time so theirs no risk in actually "fitting extra damage in over healing" similar with tanks where tanks don't really stance between dps/tanking, nor do your defensives serve much purpose outside "press when funny tank buster".

When you look at it it's actually why the healers and tanks feel so boring in the first place, they've got all these skills that aren't dps related that take up space but have the same use case, Tanks do not need serval defences all on long cooldowns, Healers do not need tons of OGCD heals, a few of these skills are fine but when it takes up a lot of your room your going to lack in the DPS department.

At the moment not only do tanks & healers lack "greed skills" but they also just are lacking in interesting dps kits in general, I think the "solution" would to be to introduce a little bit of friction and more damage related skills, doesn't need to be tons I don't think we need to revert to old versions of job design but jobs do need to start actually having unique interesting things to manage a bit more often, even if that's just more dps skills such as combo paths on tanks or extra dots, procs ect, to manage on a healer.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I bring Silence up because it is commonly seen in World of Darkness, specifically the Slime adds for the Five-Headed Dragon will cast a raid-wide Silence if they aren't killed fast enough, every time it happens and I am on a Healer or a Caster, it's just "Cool, cool, I guess I am not doing anything for the next 10 seconds...", it's not a big deal by any stretch, it's just annoying, and there is very little you can do to prevent it other than targeting the Slimes and hoping enough people also do it.

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The only time I miss the silence on the CoD add is when I die as a tank, but that's likely because healer died on the platform, whom probably got gazed by red DPS being selfish. The chain reaction of being greedy, along with no ranged silence being available on that side. You do this fight enough you know what mechanics align to every gaze expiration and when to look away. 1 minute? Oh that's going to be right after the donut/cross aoe.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you do that, how exactly would they stop you from infinitely raising people and just zombie through all forms of content no matter the difficulty?
If enrage doesn't exist, the only way to slow down or halt progress would be to stuff harder content (extreme and above) with more and more instant wipe body checks.

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Put a rez limit on players per battle. Put in a mechanic where if you have rez sickness at that time, you aren't rezzable again for the rest of the battle. The idea is if you can survive the mechanics (individually), then there shouldn't be this arbitrary timer that dictates when the battle ends. Honestly, enrage timers are an absurd notion anyway. Some dragon is just going to decide "yeah, 9 min and 37 seconds is long enough for me - I'll just use this insta-wipe ability now. But not before that."

There are many possible solutions. If necessary, keep enrage timers on Ultimates just so people can feel special about it.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think enrage prevents silly strats, but that isn't the worst thing, I think most important element is that it ensures the DD role is needed (dps checks in general). Otherwise you would probably see even more all tank or mostly tanks and a healer comps. No enrage and a boss that can self heal though, that's uh... Pretty bad combo lol.

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Might be nice for the occasional gimmick fight like M2S but if it became a regular thing it would just be frustrating.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Put a rez limit on players per battle. Put in a mechanic where if you have rez sickness at that time, you aren't rezzable again for the rest of the battle.

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That still wouldn't test whether or not your dps can do more than dodge AoEs, because that's really all an enrage timer is, a check to see if the dps players (and to a more minor extent the tanks and healers) know how to actually do their job.
As Shougun already said, the enrage is one of the few things that justify a dps-job's existence.

Especially if you had only limited revives and no enrage, party composition would most likely just become 8 tanks. They have more than enough self-heal to keep each other alive, can straight up face-tank mechanics that would kill other roles and you can cover every tank buster with an invuln.
And even if they removed tank self-sustain entirely, you would just run 6 tanks and 2 healers if needed, dps jobs would be an added risk due to how squishy and unnecessary they would be.

Its all bad because anything that shows even a small amount of skill in this game fries the brain of the average FF14 consoomer

I don't think support roles need more ways to dps and reasons to greed mechanics. Rather I think it would be good to split tanks like we split healers. Maybe pld and war being more main tank for self sustain and gbr and drk more off tank with party support. On top of this healers with more nuance and ways to figure out a heal plan in a fight.

Please let cleric stance stay in the grave where it is. It was silly that healer damage was based on INT instead of MND. And 99.9999999% of the time when you hit it, someone in the party would take avoidable damage that you had to address. And it had a cooldown to turn off, but not on. It was also finicky as hell about whether it really wanted to register that you had tried to turn it on or off.

I cheered so much when that went away and they made healer dps based on MND. It made flipping between healing responsibilities and tossing in damage flow so much better. They can build on that idea if they want to, but please don't bring cleric stance back.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Please let cleric stance stay in the grave where it is. It was silly that healer damage was based on INT instead of MND. And 99.9999999% of the time when you hit it, someone in the party would take avoidable damage that you had to address. And it had a cooldown to turn off, but not on. It was also finicky as hell about whether it really wanted to register that you had tried to turn it on or off.

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I believe that was what percentage-based heals were for? I know WHM has Benediction and SCH had Lustrate (and maybe Lilybell also wasn't affected by it?) at least

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

I believe that was what percentage-based heals were for? I know WHM has Benediction and SCH had Lustrate (and maybe Lilybell also wasn't affected by it?) at least

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The only percentage heal after ARR was Bene. And the point remains that it was the equivalent of having to put chains on your car to make a left turn and take them off to make a right. It added nothing to the kit; it merely divided the kit in half so that you'd be locked out of healing for 2-3 GCDs (depending on how early a weave the activation was on and whether one made the then-mistake of taking any SpS) after prepping an attack that wasn't a mere waste of mana.

There is a reason to have a skill that increases the damage and decreases the healing of hybrid (damage+healing, such as Assize, Earthen Star, Pneuma, etc.) skills. There is never a reason to require a button-press just to be allowed to use the other half of one's buttons as anything more than an action even less efficient/useful than being afk.

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Originally Posted by Allooutrick

I don't think support roles need more ways to dps and reasons to greed mechanics. Rather I think it would be good to split tanks like we split healers. Maybe pld and war being more main tank for self sustain and gbr and drk more off tank with party support. On top of this healers with more nuance and ways to figure out a heal plan in a fight.

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They did originally try to split tanks into main and off tanks, but then they remembered that dungeons exist and every tank needs to be able to main tank (tank swaps in hard content also exist, so every tank has to be able to act as the main tank, even for a short while), so they just scrapped the idea.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The only percentage heal after ARR was Bene. And the point remains that it was the equivalent of having to put chains on your car to make a left turn and take them off to make a right. It added nothing to the kit; it merely divided the kit in half so that you'd be locked out of healing for 2-3 GCDs (depending on how early a weave the activation was on and whether one made the then-mistake of taking any SpS) after prepping an attack that wasn't a mere waste of mana.

There is a reason to have a skill that increases the damage and decreases the healing of hybrid (damage+healing, such as Assize, Earthen Star, Pneuma, etc.) skills. There is never a reason to require a button-press just to be allowed to use the other half of one's buttons as anything more than an action even less efficient/useful than being afk.

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I suppose it's complexity just for the sake of adding complexity, but then where is the line for that? They took it to an extreme and it's basically why the dps kits of healers have been condensed down to 2 buttons + 2~3 oddities that are scarcely available while we rarely even have to deal with the opportunity cost of using a casted heal now. All the while DPS and Tank rotations are anything but efficient, and their deleting any meaningful kit interaction's made many skills into nothing more than extra damage buttons.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

They did originally try to split tanks into main and off tanks, but then they remembered that dungeons exist and every tank needs to be able to main tank (tank swaps in hard content also exist, so every tank has to be able to act as the main tank, even for a short while), so they just scrapped the idea.

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As much as I was a fan of old tank stances in concept, tanking dungeons on Paladin was absolutely miserable.
Granted that was not just due to Shield Oath.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

I suppose it's complexity just for the sake of adding complexity, but then where is the line for that?

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If it had added any more control at the time than just Assize-hits-for-non-negligible-damage vs. Assize-hits-for-non-negligible-healing, then I'd have been cool with it. Instead, it reduce available nuance, jumpstarted a long-standing era of fearful "you don't pay my sub" healers who'd refuse any damage-dealing, and disproportionately punished ping and packet issues more than any other skill besides oGCD mudras.

If it were to return on a job with many hybrid attack-heals now that healers use Mind for everything (e.g., in order to balance said healers total output while still allowing them both real choice in damage vs. healing and the flavor of hybrid skills), I'd be happy with it. It just happened to be objectively poorly implemented (and even conceived) as it's actually existed at any point in the game.

I know it's been popular lately to look at any instance that might align with a net-negative trend as necessarily negative in kind, but there are some forms of complexity that not only added nothing for their bloat but actually precluded in-practice complexity. Cleric Stance was one of them, and its removal was not a bad thing, nor was it relevant to the removal of healers' previously greater number of offensive tools.

We've since added many more tools (raid buffs, Lilly Bell equivalents, yet more hit-on-CD abilities) that arguably contextually likewise actually dumb down the surrounding game in practice more than they add to it on paper. I similarly wouldn't be sad to see some of those adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

I believe that was what percentage-based heals were for? I know WHM has Benediction and SCH had Lustrate (and maybe Lilybell also wasn't affected by it?) at least

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Lilybell didn't exist. It's honestly been too long for me to remember if Benediction was affected or not but that's a limited spell so we wouldn't have been using that all the time and groups would take a lot more avoidable damage than Bene could cover. It was like a 20% reduction in healing and that really hurt us a lot and hindered our ability to recover or rescue our group from stupid mistakes. And then they would get angry at us because they died/we wiped. And sometimes we really didn't have a leg to stand on because healing in cleric stance was a common meme.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Lilybell didn't exist. It's honestly been too long for me to remember if Benediction was affected or not but that's a limited spell so we wouldn't have been using that all the time and groups would take a lot more avoidable damage than Bene could cover. It was like a 20% reduction in healing and that really hurt us a lot and hindered our ability to recover or rescue our group from stupid mistakes. And then they would get angry at us because they died/we wiped. And sometimes we really didn't have a leg to stand on because healing in cleric stance was a common meme.

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Benediction was “affected” but there is no moderation that reduces “heal to full”

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Lilybell didn't exist. It's honestly been too long for me to remember if Benediction was affected or not but that's a limited spell so we wouldn't have been using that all the time and groups would take a lot more avoidable damage than Bene could cover. It was like a 20% reduction in healing and that really hurt us a lot and hindered our ability to recover or rescue our group from stupid mistakes. And then they would get angry at us because they died/we wiped. And sometimes we really didn't have a leg to stand on because healing in cleric stance was a common meme.

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Yes Benediction worked under Cleric Stance. And it still does in Bozja. But Benediction had a 5 minute cooldown back then. And heals were much weaker under Cleric Stance. It reduced the potency of healing spells by 20% additionally to swapping out your Mind and Intelligence stats. It's like trying to heal as a Summoner with Physick - with an additional 20% penalty. Under Cleric Stance there was no healing at all.

Plus we generally had less instant / off-GCD heals available back then. So the 5 second lockout from Cleric Stance was more a 7 second delay until the next heal lands becuase you had to hardcast it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Lilybell didn't exist. It's honestly been too long for me to remember if Benediction was affected or not but that's a limited spell so we wouldn't have been using that all the time and groups would take a lot more avoidable damage than Bene could cover. It was like a 20% reduction in healing and that really hurt us a lot and hindered our ability to recover or rescue our group from stupid mistakes. And then they would get angry at us because they died/we wiped. And sometimes we really didn't have a leg to stand on because healing in cleric stance was a common meme.

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Oh, I was talking about SCH's fairy. Been replaying the game lately so that's got me referring to her by name... except I didn't realize it was just Lily in english and folks usually thought of liturgy with that term.

Cleric Stance was more sustainable then for both healers during the WHM/SCH days because fairy embrace could be forced onto the tank cause it once had a button, so you can just macro to always to target Embrace versus current behavior of lowest in-range, and before Lustrate was subject the cleric stance penalty. Of course there was very few oGCD healing, it was pretty rad when we got assize and indom.

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Originally Posted by technole

Cleric Stance was more sustainable then for both healers during the WHM/SCH days because fairy embrace could be forced onto the tank cause it once had a button, so you can just macro to always to target Embrace versus current behavior of lowest in-range, and before Lustrate was subject the cleric stance penalty. Of course there was very few oGCD healing, it was pretty rad when we got assize and indom.

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I love the Solace spells but I have a special place in my heart for Assize because it really was that game-changing. Also when they finally fixed WHM MP issues in Stormblood. I'm way out of the SCH lifestyle. I remember having Indom and thinking it was also sweet when last I played it actively, though.

The idea of cleric stance was never bad. It was just the implementation that really sucked. I wouldn't mind if they played with the idea a bit without handicapping us that severely by having it locked to something like a stance.

Having to choose between greeding or saving something for safety sadly will result to greeding almost 100% of time in NA and EU at least.

I would prefer seeing Tanks and Healers have more cyclical gameplay that teaches good habits and rewards doing their role, as example mitigating and healing builds DPS tools, DPSing builds mitigation and healing tools.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Having to choose between greeding or saving something for safety sadly will result to greeding almost 100% of time in NA and EU at least.

I would prefer seeing Tanks and Healers have more cyclical gameplay that teaches good habits and rewards doing their role, as example mitigating and healing builds DPS tools, DPSing builds mitigation and healing tools.

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The problem for tanks would be that mitigating is currently barely even a mechanic, on top of being incredibly boring since it's overwhelmingly just fire-and-forget flat % damage reduction.

You press a cooldown every 90-120 seconds, maybe do a tank swap, or just press an invuln and that's the extent of "defensive gameplay". Sure, there is some optimization around using your short cooldown mitigation when you know it's back before the next buster and the even more rare Rampart to reduce auto-attacks.

Making that part play into your DPS tools however would be about as impactful as the "free" Edge of Shadows from TBN currently is.

Also like, I'm not asking for cleric stance and old tank stances to be returned to the entire role. Is being able to cater to different tastes not a big selling point for the job system?