Ban premade parties in Frontline please

It can be a problem, but I just don't consider it a serious enough problem to give up playing with friends in Frontline.
Too casual of a mode to take serious measures, I'd rather do things in the future like:

Reduce strong crowd control effects like Salted Earth, rather than nerfing the jobs damage...
Reduce AOE damage, or give them more falloff, rather than nerfing jobs damage...

FL balancing is very lazy, and why it continues to feel really bad at times.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Yes it does. I've played 80 matches of frontlines between this week and last week. I barely see the 6.1 to 7.0 DRK strat used, and when it is with the callouts, it doesn't really work. We are back to the 6.0 era where it is the ranged meta. The premade meta has shifted.

If you are playing melee now in general, you need to be more mindful of ranged jobs. Like White Mage with its MoN not only polymorphs you now, but it also drains you of 2500 MP or 1 self-heal, and the only upside is now its purifiable but that might not be an upside.

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This is very much my experience on Aether. The main problem I see is tank/melee feel crap to play and are mostly ineffective (other than SAM). So we've gone from a premade problem to the problem that half the jobs are really not worth playing.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Different DCs have different experiences then. I was against a premade lead by a DRK literally yesterday. So the old meta is still present here. Regardless of the composition, the fundamental problem is that premades can match against solo players. Any solution that didn't address that heart of the matter is just pushing the same problem around the table.

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So this was Shatter? I think premades are still an issue on that map, but as Archeron notes, that is more a result of an effective shot-caller than the power of a DRK+ premade. (It seems DNC is the critical component of the burst now.) One of the reasons Shatter is so ghastly is that it is so predictable with a very limited number of spawn patterns. Simply putting your team in the right place is 80% of the battle. Sure the diving tricks and the more coordinated burst a premade can produce have an impact too, but if one team has a commander who knows the solution to this p.o.s. map and half the team follows them, it's a massive advantage.

The net result on Aether is that, outside of Shatter, premades are not a major issue. I imagine that will change assuming the usual suspects keep playing the mode and perfecting their strats. Look towards the rising sun for how that might develop.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

So this was Shatter? I think premades are still an issue on that map, but as Archeron notes, that is more a result of an effective shot-caller than the power of a DRK+ premade. (It seems DNC is the critical component of the burst now.) One of the reasons Shatter is so ghastly is that it is so predictable with a very limited number of spawn patterns. Simply putting your team in the right place is 80% of the battle. Sure the diving tricks and the more coordinated burst a premade can produce have an impact too, but if one team has a commander who knows the solution to this p.o.s. map and half the team follows them, it's a massive advantage.

The net result on Aether is that, outside of Shatter, premades are not a major issue. I imagine that will change assuming the usual suspects keep playing the mode and perfecting their strats. Look towards the rising sun for how that might develop.

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As I've said a few times, the problem is the nature of premades give teams a huge advantage. It has little to do with DRK or team composition. If job abilities changed, the team composition would change, but the premade would still dominate.

I've played tons of games with shot callers who are not obviously in a premade. Having someone call shots and coordinate is not itself a problem. The problem is premades, no question about it. Do not match premades with solo players and the problem would go away.

As said before, the problem is most evident on Shatter but it's also there on the nadaam.

Just so we're clear. How many is considered a premade in your definition?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

As I've said a few times, the problem is the nature of premades give teams a huge advantage. It has little to do with DRK or team composition. If job abilities changed, the team composition would change, but the premade would still dominate.

I've played tons of games with shot callers who are not obviously in a premade. Having someone call shots and coordinate is not itself a problem. The problem is premades, no question about it. Do not match premades with solo players and the problem would go away.

As said before, the problem is most evident on Shatter but it's also there on the nadaam.

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I agree with this, but when we discussed the problem last year I don't think we ever found a solution to how a premade-only queue would ever pop. Tricks like allowing a solo-only queue and a first-available queue (that allowed premades) just don't seem like the sort of thing SE would contemplate. My preferred solution of a three-tier matchmaking system is looking increasingly remote as player numbers decline.

This is largely a consequence of putting 72 players on the field. I'd love to see team size reduced.

Incidentally, you mention your dislike for moving waymarkers. Ironically, they tend to make premades opposing them more effective because it makes the death ball denser and thus easier to wipe out. When used by a weak shotcaller they can be a complete disaster.

So you're asking for the restricting of premades, the removal of overhead markers and the removal of waymark leading. Is the aim to kill off commanding entirely? Would you only enjoy FL if it was 3 groups of 24 headless chickens fighting each other? That doesn't sound like a fun match to me at all.

That aside, DRK premades have actually gotten weaker after the 7.1 changes. Not only are melee jobs a lot more vulnerable now, you also have a myriad of ways to remove MP from a DRK to counter how tanky they are, also there's the fact that the Salted Earth draw-in effect is so delayed now that you can very realistically just walk out of it before it takes effect if you see the DRK coming.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I agree with this, but when we discussed the problem last year I don't think we ever found a solution to how a premade-only queue would ever pop. Tricks like allowing a solo-only queue and a first-available queue (that allowed premades) just don't seem like the sort of thing SE would contemplate. My preferred solution of a three-tier matchmaking system is looking increasingly remote as player numbers decline.

This is largely a consequence of putting 72 players on the field. I'd love to see team size reduced.

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There's typically two FL instances outside of the graveyard shift with a wait time of ~7 minutes. A third instance could be added exclusively for non-solo players. As is presently the case, you don't necessarily need 72 players for the match to start, so the prerequisite to pop the duty could be amended downward based on numbers SE has access to.

When demand for FL dips such as during the graveyard shift, roll solo players and premades together. Given current trends, I don't think we need to discuss what to do if there just isn't ever enough numbers for split instances even during daylight hours, but an algorithm that sentries queue counts over the past 30 minutes should be sufficient to manage the threshold.

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Incidentally, you mention your dislike for moving waymarkers. Ironically, they tend to make premades opposing them more effective because it makes the death ball denser and thus easier to wipe out. When used by a weak shotcaller they can be a complete disaster.

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Not in my experience. Premades using the waymark macro move too fast to be disrupted before they strike. You need the opposing team to also be a premade or also using waymark macros to be able to hit then with the same speed and impact.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So you're asking for the restricting of premades, the removal of overhead markers and the removal of waymark leading. Is the aim to kill off commanding entirely? Would you only enjoy FL if it was 3 groups of 24 headless chickens fighting each other? That doesn't sound like a fun match to me at all.

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You can still command without waymark macros or playing follow the leader. Vast majority outside premades do.

Also, playing follow the leader in FL is extremely boring. People complain about falling asleep during leveling roulette but FL follow the leader is the real "turn off your brain" scenario here.

Why do you play MMORPGs and whine at groups of people? Maybe you got the game genre mixed up?

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Originally Posted by Olskul

Why do you play MMORPGs and whine at groups of people? Maybe you got the game genre mixed up?

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Wait this is a MMO? I thought it was a knitting club. Thank you so much for letting me know, I'll close the thread as soon as I can find the button. What a nice young man

The proposed changes are unlikely to happen. I wouldn't be in favor of them, but realistically:

1. A premade only queue is unlikely to fill a full 72 in a timely fashion. If games are allowed to begin with significantly less than the full 72, balance becomes an issue because tank damage modifiers are designed with a large number of players in mind. The only realistic solution I could see SE implementing is maybe fairly dividing premades among solo q players.

2. In the English forums, we do not see a lot of representation from Japanese players. I do not play much on JP but have watched a fair amount of JP frontline. JP commanders utilize sound effects, waymarks, and marks to an extreme extent, and the best commanders seem quite well-respected by the community. They will use these tools even as solo queue commanders without a premade. I don't forsee SE catering to folks on other data centers over allowing JP to keep what it likes.

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Originally Posted by PGuin

The proposed changes are unlikely to happen. I wouldn't be in favor of them, but realistically:

1. A premade only queue is unlikely to fill a full 72 in a timely fashion. If games are allowed to begin with significantly less than the full 72, balance becomes an issue because tank damage modifiers are designed with a large number of players in mind. The only realistic solution I could see SE implementing is maybe fairly dividing premades among solo q players.

2. In the English forums, we do not see a lot of representation from Japanese players. I do not play much on JP but have watched a fair amount of JP frontline. JP commanders utilize sound effects, waymarks, and marks to an extreme extent, and the best commanders seem quite well-respected by the community. They will use these tools even as solo queue commanders without a premade. I don't forsee SE catering to folks on other data centers over allowing JP to keep what it likes.

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I wouldn't mind as much keeping sound effects in chat so long as premades were sequestered and/or waymark macros done away with. As it is however with the whole shebang, it makes premades insufferable to match with and against.

That being said, I agree with your final point -_-

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Originally Posted by PGuin

The proposed changes are unlikely to happen. I wouldn't be in favor of them, but realistically:

1. A premade only queue is unlikely to fill a full 72 in a timely fashion. If games are allowed to begin without the full 72, balance becomes an issue because tank damage modifiers are designed with a large number of players in mind. The only realistic solution I could see SE implementing is maybe fairly dividing premades among solo q players.
2. In the English forums, we do not see a lot of representation from Japanese players. I do not play much on JP but have watched a fair amount of JP frontline. JP commanders utilize sound effects, waymarks, and marks to an extreme extent, and the best commanders seem quite well-respected by the community. They will use these tools even as solo queue commanders without a premade. I don't forsee SE catering to folks on other data centers over allowing JP to keep what it likes.

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Yeah that's a great point. So the solution is for NA/EU shot-callers to develop a style that better suits their foot soldiers.

IMO this would include:

Not using coordinates to indicate new nodes;

Not directing the team to a node just because it has popped (this is simply bad commanding but is common);

Not spamming chat with SFX (some are fine, but the overuse by some is obnoxious), same for unnecessary text.

I still find matches far more interesting when a handful of players make occasional suggestions, rather than the follow-the-leader deathball approach.

This game has the most non-toxic community.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yeah that's a great point. So the solution is for NA/EU shot-callers to develop a style that better suits their foot soldiers.

IMO this would include:

Not using coordinates to indicate new nodes;

Not directing the team to a node just because it has popped (this is simply bad commanding but is common);

Not spamming chat with SFX (some are fine, but the overuse by some is obnoxious), same for unnecessary text.

I still find matches far more interesting when a handful of players make occasional suggestions, rather than the follow-the-leader deathball approach.

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I'm yelling at you. Why do you decide for others what they need?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yeah that's a great point. So the solution is for NA/EU shot-callers to develop a style that better suits their foot soldiers.

IMO this would include:

Not using coordinates to indicate new nodes;

Not directing the team to a node just because it has popped (this is simply bad commanding but is common);

Not spamming chat with SFX (some are fine, but the overuse by some is obnoxious), same for unnecessary text.

I still find matches far more interesting when a handful of players make occasional suggestions, rather than the follow-the-leader deathball approach.

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Agreed on all accounts. (I still think premades are children of Satan.)

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Originally Posted by Olskul

I'm yelling at you. Why do you decide for others what they need?

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I'm making suggestions based on my experience of matches on NA. People are free to point out what is wrong with them.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

As certain as the day is long, premades are the absolute bane of Frontline.

By far worse than players who idle at nodes, players who don't know their class yet, players who are just there for the XP, players who are allergic to healing.

By far more impactful than tiny potency changes or adjustments to job balance.

Premades completely suffocate any chance of fairness. They make a team dominate. It takes active effort and cooperation between the other two teams to deny them a sure victory.

The only people who like premades are people who regularly play in premades.

To combat this, any number of the following changes could be made:

1. Prevent premade parties from queueing to FL or only match premades with other premades.
2. Prevent players from placing markers on themselves or teammates.
3. Prevent waymarks from being placed within 10 seconds of the most recent waymark placement.
4. Prevent chat sound effects.

Thank you, and remember - premades are the worst!

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These changes are what we need more of in PvP here.

We should also remove the ability to chat while in Frontlines, along with the ability to see anyone else's name but your own. The quick chat feature and name hiding from blacklist are already baked into the game and could easily be extended to Frontline.

The ability to see your Frontline win rate & matches played should also be removed just like in CC. Theres no reason to demotivate players by showing them their performance after games. To go with that, the scoreboard should be modified to remove all personal stats at the end of a frontline game and only show the symbol and color of the winning team.

Why is it that people read "stop premades from completely annihilating the other teams" and interpret it as "stop me personally from having any fun in this game". Maybe they know won't enjoy it if the teams are fair?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Why is it that people read "stop premades from completely annihilating the other teams" and interpret it as "stop me personally from having any fun in this game". Maybe they know won't enjoy it if the teams are fair?

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I asked what your definition of how many people are considered a premade.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

it if the teams are fair?

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Or maybe skill issue and u cant having fun in this game, lmao. U cant be serious with your words.

I am solo queue player and didnt see something unfair if i playing vs premades. This most fair situation for massive PvP ever. This is not competitive content with "high prizes". This is entertainment arcade mode with terrible balance and maps. U saying play vs premades unfair.

I saying play with team what was filled all by hamsters, exp lickers and cant into basic analytical on maps is unfair.
Unfair its have a team when 20 peoples from 24 have lower dmg and kda then other both teams.
https://i.imgur.com/9iGXaKg.png
Unfair its 10 bards and 5 machinist with 5 astros without tanks.
Unfair when u using as tank perfect pulls or AoE engages chain and no one following you, because hamster prefer pew-pew on max range and LB bahamut on one Paladin 0 BH.
Unfair when even half of team cant ignore one lonely target and continue move to primary target \ node.
Unfair its always tabing first target and blow in it all, what hamster have, even that target in guard.
Unfair its spawning 3 big nodes under losing team with low KDA.
Unfair when u cant hunt no one for fun with ninja+monk duo and u need for that 2 LBs to kill that target.

Premades are a blessing that literally support life in this meaningless pvp mode. They forming discord \ FCs communities. Making massive events. They create unusual situations and form an effective snowball from a team of hamsters (sometimes).

You won't believe it, but killing quickly, a lot and with "art" is fun. It's fun to stomp on enemy hamsters who are just cannon fodder. And the fact that 24 players are not able to withstand 4+20, not to mention such complex things as 48 against 24, Only proves how important premades are for frontlanes.

I'm actually amazed that I and anyone else manage to enjoy PvP in this game, constantly struggling with such factors as huge, tasteless animations, the presence of an endless sprint, the most disgusting targeting and net code for which the entire development department should be fired.

And yes, if you think about four players who have learned to press buttons simultaneously like in a script, this is a really serious problem, lmao.

Your games, with very high likelihood, are always filled with premades on every side. The thing is, that the overwhelming amount of them are "just here for xp". That's why a single premade of "actually here to do PvP" players has such a massive impact on games. Removing the option for premade queues (and more importantly, a more randomized approach to fill alliances to prevent queue syncing) would reduce the impact, but the outcry from the playerbase would be sizeable.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

lmao.

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I'm sorry, I'll be honest, it looks like you should be making your own thread about your gripe with FL. It doesn't really seem relevant to anything I'm taking about here.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Your games, with very high likelihood, are always filled with premades on every side. The thing is, that the overwhelming amount of them are "just here for xp". That's why a single premade of "actually here to do PvP" players has such a massive impact on games. Removing the option for premade queues (and more importantly, a more randomized approach to fill alliances to prevent queue syncing) would reduce the impact, but the outcry from the playerbase would be sizeable.

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I don't think that's true but if there is a trustworthy report on this somewhere I'll take it into account.

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Originally Posted by Garuketo

These changes are what we need more of in PvP here.

We should also remove the ability to chat while in Frontlines, along with the ability to see anyone else's name but your own. The quick chat feature and name hiding from blacklist are already baked into the game and could easily be extended to Frontline.

The ability to see your Frontline win rate & matches played should also be removed just like in CC. Theres no reason to demotivate players by showing them their performance after games. To go with that, the scoreboard should be modified to remove all personal stats at the end of a frontline game and only show the symbol and color of the winning team.

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Very dystopian future that you're painting here. If you're going to try and push for that you may as well delete rank crystalline conflict to get that point across more efficiently. That way, people can be fine with not learning classes.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

It doesn't really seem relevant to anything I'm taking about here.

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No need, i accept FLs like as they are. But, you sign for a lot players without hesitation and for some reason you consider this the norm.

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The only people who like premades are people who regularly play in premades.

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I just showing how ridiculous your "arguments" are.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

I'm actually amazed that I and anyone else manage to enjoy PvP in this game, constantly struggling with such factors as huge, tasteless animations, the presence of an endless sprint, the most disgusting targeting and net code for which the entire development department should be fired.

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When you put it like that, it does seem rather amazing.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I don't think that's true but if there is a trustworthy report on this somewhere I'll take it into account.

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If you are in Frontline, check which server your party members are from in the beginning. I would say it is quite common for FC members to group together. I know a few people from my own who regularly do, and you would never associate them with the "actually here to do PvP" premades. Only SE will have true numbers, but I have seen vote kicks not pass for people who were offline since the start of the match, because 3 other people of the group were in the same FC as the offline person.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

When you put it like that, it does seem rather amazing.

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Because it is.

Most of PvP players who i know, who doing duels, cc casual and ranked matches or FLs if they have other experience in other games, blamming PvP in this game. But we havent alternative so we are eating food which they give us. But this is really not a theme of topic.

My bad, beacuse i really triggered and baited on OP: "i was killed by drk pull what was sync with other bursts. Let's ban players from the party so that this doesn't happen again.".

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Why is it that people read "stop premades from completely annihilating the other teams" and interpret it as "stop me personally from having any fun in this game". Maybe they know won't enjoy it if the teams are fair?

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Because my interpretation thus far is that your play style is solo format and that you've had a bad run in with a few really good premades or that they got really lucky and your team was just lethargic. Your solutions are nebulous and you don't consider a new game mode for solo players but rather to rip the system we already have from the players who would rather play it as is than under your solutions thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

If you are in Frontline, check which server your party members are from in the beginning. I would say it is quite common for FC members to group together. I know a few people from my own who regularly do, and you would never associate them with the "actually here to do PvP" premades. Only SE will have true numbers, but I have seen vote kicks not pass for people who were offline since the start of the match, because 3 other people of the group were in the same FC as the offline person.

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I take your point, people do queue into FL in twos and threes, and not every premade is of the type I'm rallying against. In fact the type I'm describing in this thread is a small minority of premades. But given that they're a minority and yet they have a huge impact on the quality of FL, that should speak to the severity of the issue - that a premade with intent can dominate an entire game mode.

If premades were only matched together, the groups you describe would still be able to play together as they currently do. They wouldn't play against solo players but it would be no change from their perspective, so no harm to them. Meanwhile, solo players wouldn't get ground into dust. It sounds like you think there would be enough premade parties to form an instance, and I think there would be enough solos for their own instanxe, so we should both be happy with this suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

Because my interpretation thus far is that your play style is solo format and that you've had a bad run in with a few really good premades or that they got really lucky and your team was just lethargic. Your solutions are nebulous and you don't consider a new game mode for solo players but rather to rip the system we already have from the players who would rather play it as is than under your solutions thank you very much.

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Your interpretation is incorrect. It's disheartening that you choose to believe everything I'm saying about how premades behave on Light is fictional and that other people cannot have different experiences to your own. I've been pretty clear in what I'm talking about and asking for throughout this thread so I'm sorry but I don't think you've really been reading it with an interest in understanding.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

You can still command without waymark macros or playing follow the leader. Vast majority outside premades do.

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Not effectively. How do you propose effectively coordinating a burst without a marker on the burst target? How do you propose leading the group safely out of a pinch without a waymark to follow? How do you grab the attention of those who are split too far out without chat sound effects?

Without anything for people to gather around, all you're doing is putting a suggestion in chat that most people will just end up ignoring and doing their own thing.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Not effectively. How do you propose effectively coordinating a burst without a marker on the burst target?

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I never said I'm against putting markers on enemies.

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How do you propose leading the group safely out of a pinch without a waymark to follow?

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"back" does a good enough job.

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How do you grab the attention of those who are split too far out without chat sound effects?

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You say "stay together" or "regroup" in alliance chat.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Not effectively. How do you propose effectively coordinating a burst without a marker on the burst target? How do you propose leading the group safely out of a pinch without a waymark to follow? How do you grab the attention of those who are split too far out without chat sound effects?

Without anything for people to gather around, all you're doing is putting a suggestion in chat that most people will just end up ignoring and doing their own thing.

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I like marked targets. You can't KO anyone on your own, so when I drop them I'm basically asking for help.

Op, what are you even doing in frontlines ? What even are those demands regarding markers ? Premades are fine, and I'm a solo player.

Effective shotcalling and commanding requires pinging, waymarks, and marking. Otherwise everyone ignores you, and then you're not really commanding at that point. The whole point of commanding is getting 24 people to work together as a team. Frontlines is won and lost off how well your team coordinated your team is to both score kills, and capture objectives. Random casuals queuing into frontlines are generally completely oblivious to anything going on around them without the game pinging alerts and having markers thrown in front of their faces. You see this constantly with people posting coordinates, or calling out for assistance and you'll maybe see 4 or 5 people peel away (Which is almost always never enough.) or teams just outright attacking third place and basically throwing the match since nobody is in charge and everyone is just doing whatever they want, with no situational awareness.

I want to say something... but what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Effective shotcalling and commanding requires pinging, waymarks, and marking. Otherwise everyone ignores you, and then you're not really commanding at that point. The whole point of commanding is getting 24 people to work together as a team. Frontlines is won and lost off how well your team coordinated your team is to both score kills, and capture objectives. Random casuals queuing into frontlines are generally completely oblivious to anything going on around them without the game pinging alerts and having markers thrown in front of their faces. You see this constantly with people posting coordinates, or calling out for assistance and you'll maybe see 4 or 5 people peel away (Which is almost always never enough.) or teams just outright attacking third place and basically throwing the match since nobody is in charge and everyone is just doing whatever they want, with no situational awareness.

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Illustrating how pointless it is to use coordinates. Controller players can't use them, and the subset of kbm players who know they are clickable typically avoid them because it borks the map. This is compounded by shot-callers who drop coordinates whenever a node pops, irrespective of whether the team should head there en masse or not.

They should expand the Frontline premades into 8 players and force the matchmaking to split all pre-made parties evenly across the teams based on number of players in them.

Also casual CC should have 2-3 player parties allowed with matchmaking prioritizing pitting them against other parties.

It's very frustrating that frontline, considering it's a daily roulette that gives a round half an exp bar, is full of inept players that don't actually care to play the mode and basically grief for exp. Along with that, the players that are actually here to win games whether it be for rewards or fun, are grouped with these people that don't care for the mode. To combat this they can pair up with just three other people for a slight chance of winning, which is kind of the point to pvp as a concept, but god forbid they're on the opposite GC because the people that are here to grief for free exp still expect to win, and will cry about premades for the entire match. Oh, and good luck to the people that still want to win by solo queue because not even a four-stack pf will fill because nobody else actually cares about this mode and premades are looked down upon by people that don't actually want to play the mode or win.

If more of the playerbase wanted to at least be competent, I think I'd be more against premades, but given its current state, I can't be entirely against them. I don't really blame people for wanting to win in a mode that is meant to be won, rather than queueing with 23 other people that don't actually care.

God forbid people actually try to do something to boost their chances of winning in a pvp mode. We should just take turns letting one alliance win over the other of course.
Makes me miss the old days of 8v8v8 pvp after queueing for 4 hours, would be better than seeing turists not even trying and expecting to win while crying "no premades >:(".

But ranting aside, let people do callouts however they feel like, if you can't take it then just stop playing the mode, its clearly not for you