FFXIV has lost it's heart

Have you played any other videogame? Have you watched any movies or read any books? Do you think Rocky and Laurie Strode and Sidney Prescott and Ripley and Gandalf are all shonen protagonists?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Have you played any other videogame? Have you watched any movies or read any books? Do you think Rocky and Laurie Strode and Sidney Prescott and Ripley and Gandalf are all shonen protagonists?

---

I dont know if this is actual bait or not, but you cant even begin to compare Rocky, Ripley etc to fabricated melodramatic shonen conveyer-belt characters that yell their motivation 200 times a day because the writer thinks their audience has goldfish memory or are 12-year olds.
They had time to give Wuk Lamat a proper arc and scenes, but chose to have it as backround information or flashbacks/sidequests(believe me bro style). Instead of her training, she just believes and it happens. Which is a dynamis issue too. Because these lazy writers need a crutch because they dont know / care to dig up how aether and magic work in their own game and use that.

She couldve been great, but they always took the easy way out and we are left with surface level shell that you could enter into any anime action slop that runs for 12 episodes.

Also this expansion didnt fail storywise because of Wuk Lamat. It did because of bad pacing, bad writing and cramming two expansions into one again. Because we need to go go go go go. And not stop and have actual moments to breathe.

Endwalker had a lot of similar issues, so Im starting to suspect its a hiring issue and a direction issue.
Endwalker wouldve been a perfectly fine finale for the whole game. But now they are scrambling for a new arc and instead of taking it slow. Its action action action instead of taking time to build us up to care about something / someone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

One person once incorrectly called Wuk Lamat a shonen protagonist and a lot of people with poor media literacy latched onto it as if it was the best thing ever. It's very funny.

---

^^

Lots of players get super lazy when it comes to thinking about the stories they experience. They unfortunately don't put the work into trying to understand why they liked or didn't like something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hallarem

Also this expansion didnt fail storywise because of Wuk Lamat. It did because of bad pacing, bad writing and cramming two expansions into one again. Because we need to go go go go go. And not stop and have actual moments to breathe.

Endwalker had a lot of similar issues, so Im starting to suspect its a hiring issue and a direction issue.
Endwalker wouldve been a perfectly fine finale for the whole game. But now they are scrambling for a new arc and instead of taking it slow. Its action action action instead of taking time to build us up to care about something / someone.

---

They also screwed themselves up by changing the timing of expansions. Originally they did it every 2 years so they could do 5 expansions per 10 year period.

Now, they have gone to 2.5 years or longer and they realized that they can only do 4 expansions or less and had to cram two expansions into 7.x.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Have you played any other videogame? Have you watched any movies or read any books? Do you think Rocky and Laurie Strode and Sidney Prescott and Ripley and Gandalf are all shonen protagonists?

---

Comparing Wuk to Gandalf of all characters to make this arguement is the most laughable thing I have read on here in a long long time. Just look up the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White and see the trials he went through to earn that title. He simply did not just close his eyes and believe really hard because Sauron threw some tacos on the ground lol.

Oh man, reading comprehension and critical thinking is so far down that I could dig for days and still not reach it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Comparing Wuk to Gandalf of all characters to make this arguement is the most laughable thing I have read on here in a long long time. Just look up the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White and see the trials he went through to earn that title. He simply did not just close his eyes and believe really hard because Sauron threw some tacos on the ground lol.

Oh man, reading comprehension and critical thinking is so far down that I could dig for days and still not reach it.

---

I knew someone would say this.

Nowhere did I compare these characters in any way as to say they are alike. Go read what I actually wrote and what I was replying to. Honestly my dear, your father and I are worried about you. These memory lapses, your inability to concentrate... we're concerned about your health. Please, you need to stop and rest. I will call for a doctor in the morning.

I'm seemingly in the minority here (forums) as someone who quite enjoyed Dawntrail. Won't elaborate on that, as have done so already in other threads.

However, the one element of Dawntrail's story so-far that I can't help but keep returning to is that there weren't any truly 'emotional' moments. The closest we got were Vrtra's cameo, which used 'Footfalls' to score points, and Cahciua's goodbye - which loses a point as it uses 'Forever at your Side', which felt more meaningful in the sidequest "Forever in Our Hearts"

There were no real epic moments along the lines of "This is our future. Our story" from ShB or Zenos' appearance in EW either. It's interesting, as it makes watching the streamers running through it for the first time a little less interesting - there just isn't anything really substantial for them to react to.

Hopefully one of the patches will give us something like that but for now the lack of any real 'edge of your seat' moments really does stick in the mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Have you played any other videogame? Have you watched any movies or read any books? Do you think Rocky and Laurie Strode and Sidney Prescott and Ripley and Gandalf are all shonen protagonists?

---

You know I was going to address this, but the rest of the comments are torching you enough so I'll simply say "Yes. Several." and move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basteala

You know I was going to address this, but the rest of the comments are torching you enough so I'll simply say "Yes. Several." and move on.

---

Maybe this is unintentional but it's hilarious how it looks like you forgot what you were responding to midway through your reply. You have played "several" other games or watched "several" movies? You think that Gandalf is a shonen protagonist?? You're not really demonstrating great media literacy here my friend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

I knew someone would say this.

---

You want to put a false equivalency out there, of course someone has to call you out on it. Wuk does fall much more into the shonen archtype and telling ppl they lack media literacy because they put her in that catagory is telling about your own ability to concentrate.

And that shallow patronizing thing you have going, yeah not only not a good look, but that was just not done well at all. It just feels really like you are trying and think you are super witty and smart, but it just comes off as the opposite. I think I pulled that whole, "me and your mom are worried about you" thing on the playground when I was like 10. If you want to be condescending, at the very least do a little better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

You want to put a false equivalency out there, of course someone has to call you out on it. Wuk does fall much more into the shonen archtype and telling ppl they lack media literacy because they put her in that catagory is telling about your own ability to concentrate.

And that shallow patronizing thing you have going, yeah not only not a good look, but that was just not done well at all. It just feels really like you are trying and think you are super witty and smart, but just comes off as the opposite. I thinking I pulled that whole, "me and your mom are worried about you" thing on the playground when I was like 10. If you want to be condescending, at the very least do a little better.

---

I beg you, read what you're responding to beyond the very first sentence. Take your time. I know you can do it, I believe in you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

I beg you, read what you're responding to beyond the very first sentence. Take your time. I know you can do it, I believe in you!

---

3/10 at best. Try again. You can do it, I know you can!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

3/10 at best. Try again. You can do it, I know you can!

---

I will summarize for you.

I said Wuk Lamat is not a shonen protagonist.

Someone else proposed basic criteria for a shonen protagonist and said she meets this criteria so she's a shonen protagonist.

I listed other characters across fiction that also meet that criteria, asking if they're also shonen protagonists.

You'll have to engage your brain a little bit here so try really hard for a second, but the implication I'm making is they are not shonen protagonists and therefore they are not equivalent. This therefore illustrates why the criteria they laid out is wrong.

Phew! We did it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

I will summarize for you.

I said Wuk Lamat is not a shonen protagonist.

Someone else proposed basic criteria for a shonen protagonist and said she meets this criteria so she's a shonen protagonist.

I listed other characters across fiction that also meet that criteria, asking if they're also shonen protagonists.

You'll have to engage your brain a little bit here so try really hard for a second, but the implication I'm making is they are not shonen protagonists and therefore they are not equivalent. This therefore illustrates why the criteria they laid out is wrong.

Phew! We did it!

---

Regardless of nitpicking over terminology, Wuk does have moments of completely unearned power increases for someone who only had trained in a confined setting and barely has any experience out in the world. Outperforming the WOL in the end trial is ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

You'll have to engage your brain a little bit here so try really hard for a second,

---

If you really want to have this sort of inflated ego, I beg you to do better. I can see you are trying, I really can. But you just seem to come off as having a sense of superiority that your words and wit just don't measure up to. We can have conversations without patronizing each other. But your instant jump to this tone is just going to give you so much trouble in your life, esp since you don't have the appropriate level of cleverness to pull it off well.

So if you really want to keep up this conversation, either tackle it from the perspective of a grown adult or just continue to show us this odd level of self delusion that adds nothing to the conversation. And if you are trying to troll just for the luls, well than, maybe practice a bit more on a smaller forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Regardless of nitpicking over terminology, Wuk does have moments of completely unearned power increases for someone who only had trained in a confined setting and barely has any experience out in the world. Outperforming the WOL in the end trial is ridiculous.

---

I don't think it's really useful to compare the fiction communicated of the player and their party during a trial versus that of an NPC, since we and they operate on different fictional bases. For example, in the past Estinien could withstand an attack from Nidhogg that would leave s player in critical health. And Lyse could one-shot a mob in a level 70 dungeon that we could barely dent. But as players we all understand that this is not the game saying these characters outperform us in combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

I don't think it's really useful to compare the fiction communicated of the player and their party during a trial versus that of an NPC, since we and they operate on different fictional bases. For example, in the past Estinien could withstand an attack from Nidhogg that would leave s player in critical health. And Lyse could one-shot a mob in a level 70 dungeon that we could barely dent. But as players we all understand that this is not the game saying these characters outperform us in combat.

---

Estinian having a moment against Nidhogg was completely earned in his story as the Azure Dragoon. Lyse one-shotting what? A trash mob? Who cares. Whatever mob she killed was such a non-issue I don't even know what your referencing.

Wuk's moments just felt unearned and forced. Along with her overpowering the entire story, many of us just had enough of her and that was a final straw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

If you really want to have this sort of inflated ego, I beg you to do better. I can see you are trying, I really can. But you just seem to come off as having a sense of superiority that your words and wit just don't measure up to. We can have conversations without patronizing each other. But your instant jump to this tone is just going to give you so much trouble in your life, esp since you don't have the appropriate level of cleverness to pull it off well.

So if you really want to keep up this conversation, either tackle it from the perspective of a grown adult or just continue to show us this odd level of self delusion that adds nothing to the conversation. And if you are trying to troll just for the luls, well than, maybe practice a bit more on a smaller forum.

---

This was how you responded to me originally ->

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Comparing Wuk to Gandalf of all characters to make this arguement is the most laughable thing I have read on here in a long long time. Just look up the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White and see the trials he went through to earn that title. He simply did not just close his eyes and believe really hard because Sauron threw some tacos on the ground lol.

Oh man, reading comprehension and critical thinking is so far down that I could dig for days and still not reach it.

---

So remember, when you point a finger, you have three pointed right back at you.

(I notice you went swiftly from "this tone ill suits you" to trying your best to adopt the exact same tone, even copying much of the same phrasing! That's hilarious! I would be flattered if you had also demonstrated that you read anything else I had written, but alas :( )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Estinian having a moment against Nidhogg was completely earned in his story as the Azure Dragoon. Lyse one-shotting what? A trash mob? Who cares. Whatever mob she killed was such a non-issue I don't even know what your referencing.

Wuk's moments just felt unearned and forced. Along with her overpowering the entire story, many of us just had enough of her and that was a final straw.

---

Ok. I don't think Wuk Lamat's moment was unearned. I think it was earned through the MSQ of Dawntrail, which went to great lengths to develop her character and show how she grows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Ok. I don't think Wuk Lamat's moment was unearned. I think it was earned through the MSQ of Dawntrail, which went to great lengths to develop her character and show how she grows.

---

Sure.... walking around her own country and having the Scions solve almost all of her problems, or just dumb-lucking her way into a solution really feels earned. Certainly she should be able to find interdimensional rifts with her dumb luck and then out-dps a raid team by vast margins for ???? reasons. She sure should be more powerful than WoL's with 10 years of star-saving experience who felled the Gods and the Endsinger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Wuk's moments just felt unearned and forced. Along with her overpowering the entire story, many of us just had enough of her and that was a final straw.

---

As much as I find the "Wuk Lamat Bad" discourse exhausting, these sentences ring the truest though. Because of the writing, Wuk was put as a centerpiece of almost every cutscene in the 7.0 MSQ. Of course that is not going to be seen positive by everyone at the end of the day.

And as for that final bossfight... it was just insulting to the player. Sphene considers us the biggest danger (rightfully so), pushes out the other two so we can have a final epic clash, only to have to be saved by Wuk who was much weaker than us just moments ago to the point of being labelled "irrelevant" by Queen Eternal. That just felt bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ovIm

As much as I find the "Wuk Lamat Bad" discourse exhausting, these sentences ring the truest though. Because of the writing, Wuk was put as a centerpiece of almost every cutscene in the 7.0 MSQ. Of course that is not going to be seen positive by everyone at the end of the day.

And as for that final bossfight... it was just insulting to the player. Sphene considers us the biggest danger (rightfully so), pushes out the other two so we can have a final epic clash, only to have to be saved by Wuk who was much weaker than us just moments ago to the point of being labelled "irrelevant" by Queen Eternal. That just felt bad.

---

I think one of the worst things about that scene isn't even Wuk Lamat's interference, but--ironically--how much it downplays the connection the player had with Wuk Lamat. Whether we like it or not, Wuk Lamat feels she has a strong familial bond with us after the Rite of Succession. And why not? We *did* help her turn from weak willed woman with bravado into someone (allegedly, the plot doesn't do the best job of it) with a strong will and courage to match, with enough humility to ask for and accept help, all while supporting her onto the throne. There's a lot for her to feel that connection to us.

But then...her and Sphene basically have one tour in Alexandria, and find out they have a few things in common over low poly grapes. The screen time they share together can probably be recorded in literal minutes, and you can count the quests on one hand.

Yet somehow, somehow, this fosters such a strong programming that it can overcome Queen Eternal's programming. I don't necessarily hate the idea in an FF14 universe, but there was so little time for that bond to steep that the situation borders on lunacy. This would be like if we met Emet Selch properly only after returning to Eulmore, and then everything else happens the same way. The impact would just not be there.

The new writing staff, more than anything, needs to learn the value of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astronema

Well when the current armor sets look like what was worn by thugs robbing a CVS in NYC I would say so ... Urban soulless monoculture and dei is taking over the game

---

Gross take.

So sure on the story and all, but really there were only a few where it actually felt like that.. Namely HW and ShB.

With respect to content design, it isn't that it has lost its heart, it's just the simple fact that the game doesn't know what it wants to be from 1 patch to the next, so we end up with all this half baked content. Modding back then, there was no reason for the lack of modding, a lot of it was simply down to the game and the communities not being developed at the time. Even resource development plays a large factor in this. You could put a HW-esque expansion in the modern era and it would be the same result, because everything that has happened with respect to this is entirely on the community ultimately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Sure.... walking around her own country and having the Scions solve almost all of her problems, or just dumb-lucking her way into a solution really feels earned. Certainly she should be able to find interdimensional rifts with her dumb luck and then out-dps a raid team by vast margins for ???? reasons. She sure should be more powerful than WoL's with 10 years of star-saving experience who felled the Gods and the Endsinger.

---

Again, there are instances throughout the game of NPCs dealing more damage than the players' party, so it's weird to focus on only this one as egregious.

Regarding the scions taking her around her country and solving all her problems... That's not what happened. There's a fair spread of each character in the group collaborating on the solution. For example, in the Mamool Ja village, her well-substantiated resistance to the initial trial lead to her and friends investigating the townsfolk's problems and together finding a solution. She acted as the driver, and her people-focused approach brought together others from different disciplines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Estinian having a moment against Nidhogg was completely earned in his story as the Azure Dragoon. Lyse one-shotting what? A trash mob? Who cares. Whatever mob she killed was such a non-issue I don't even know what your referencing.

Wuk's moments just felt unearned and forced. Along with her overpowering the entire story, many of us just had enough of her and that was a final straw.

---

The important thing about the moment in Ghimlyt is that Lyse or one of a few other NPCs(I think Yugiri, Pippin, and Hien are the others) will LB3 the iron giant and then stay back to guard the rear with Kan-E because the WoL's party is better suited to the task ahead than they are. This is never the case with Wuk. She is always at the fore, even after becoming co-ruler of an empire, and it is always the correct decision because she's the strongest because the plot says so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Regardless of nitpicking over terminology, Wuk does have moments of completely unearned power increases for someone who only had trained in a confined setting and barely has any experience out in the world. Outperforming the WOL in the end trial is ridiculous.

---

But when you do hang around rock climbers or endurance trainers, you pick up a few tricks. Same as hanging around the types of people gifted with talent and I think the story tried to exemplify the positive impact you have on the people around you. Like you give them strength to be better. But I don't know, some people interpret stories differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

But when you do hang around rock climbers or endurance trainers, you pick up a few tricks. Same as hanging around the types of people gifted with talent and I think the story tried to exemplify the positive impact you have on the people around you. Like you give them strength to be better. But I don't know, some people interpret stories differently.

---

Dawntrail is all about how people are influenced by one another and how a society characterizes and is characterized by its citizens, so this interpretation is on point.

I'm sorry but FFXIV has been over since Endwalker. Not even the story can keep me interested. Endwalker, for example was lame and predictable. If I wanted a good story about Hope vs. Despair I'd just play Danganronpa again because FFXIV did a poor, poor job at tackling it.

ARR/HS quest design were godlike I don't care about anyone saying " But 500 quests before HS" you were a simple adventure figuring things out and always fighting enemies beyond your skill level. Now supposedly you're a god that struggles against some alpacas and basic monster design because writers ran out of ideas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnRam

ARR/HS quest design were godlike I don't care about anyone saying " But 500 quests before HS" you were a simple adventure figuring things out and always fighting enemies beyond your skill level. Now supposedly you're a god that struggles against some alpacas and basic monster design because writers ran out of ideas.

---

I do really enjoy the whole simple adventurer angle
It's why personally I never consider my character as the warrior of light, even if that's how the MSQ will treat him

I think it's better to separate gameplay mechanics from the story, because as far as the narrative went we're this super powerful trump card that is being held back as our strength is recognized by several people

It's pretty hard I imagine to have the enemies we fight make sense when we have defeated the embodiment of despair itself and other universe ending threats which seems pretty typical for a final fantasy game

but on the other hand I have to wonder what stakes there will be in the future, because I don't see how we could lose with the way things are going. Maybe we could do with another instance of losing, like we did the first time we met Zenos though I wonder if people would be happy with that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Someone getting stronger and more determined over time and then winning a fight under different circumstances does not make them a shonen protagonist.

---

Um, that is literally shonen lol

it's ok you can like wuk, i also like yshtola despite her being a plank of wood of a character, no need to lie about her being interesting or anything

The simple thing that needed to happen was that we went into Tural by ourselves as an honest-to-god adventurer and explore that new world piece by piece. One expansion we explored Yok Tural, the next Xak Tural, while the story is building up to Sphene and Alexandria. This would make Wuk Lamat an even more endearing character as we would really see her improve under our tutelage.


But.. That's just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Again, there are instances throughout the game of NPCs dealing more damage than the players' party, so it's weird to focus on only this one as egregious.

---

Mhm, that's why the very same girl also gets kidnapped by a random weak NPC. But it would be obviously egregious to think about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zukkii

The simple thing that needed to happen was that we went into Tural by ourselves as an honest-to-god adventurer and explore that new world piece by piece. One expansion we explored Yok Tural, the next Xak Tural, while the story is building up to Sphene and Alexandria. This would make Wuk Lamat an even more endearing character as we would really see her improve under our tutelage.


But.. That's just my 2 cents.

---

Nothing would make her an endearing character

That's my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reimmi

Um, that is literally shonen lol

it's ok you can like wuk, i also like yshtola despite her being a plank of wood of a character, no need to lie about her being interesting or anything

---

As I said elsewhere, that criteria applies to a huge amount of non-shonen characters all across fiction, so that criteria is useless. Or do you think everything with feathers is a duck?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xbahax92

Mhm, that's why the very same girl also gets kidnapped by a random weak NPC. But it would be obviously egregious to think about it.

---

She got kidnapped off screen, presumably by BKJJ. You imagined she got kidnapped by a nobody and then you got mad at your imagination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

See, now you got me wondering how much more better some cutscenes would be if it was just the NPCs yapping in the foreground while in the background our WoL is being a menace to the local wildlife or current expansion mooks.

---

Let me just put a few thoughts in your head. A couple of thoughts I had for 7.0 MSQ.

Wuk Lamat goes out to capture a Llama? Its a minigame/solo instance, grab that critter!
The Hanu Hanu do their festival? The WoL leads the progression, trying to move the float past as many Hanu as possible. Capture the moment!
We have to cook Xibruq Pibil? Cool beans, here is a set of faux crafter skills, go make that HQ, hero!
Driving a suicide train into an enemy fortress? Its a shooting minigame like in Gold Saucer, defend your bomb!

etc etc. There are ways we could marry gameplay and story, make everything more interactive. Square Enix would just need to do it and stop being afraid to require gameplay for MSQ progress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zukkii

The simple thing that needed to happen was that we went into Tural by ourselves as an honest-to-god adventurer and explore that new world piece by piece. One expansion we explored Yok Tural, the next Xak Tural, while the story is building up to Sphene and Alexandria. This would make Wuk Lamat an even more endearing character as we would really see her improve under our tutelage.


But.. That's just my 2 cents.

---

I am also of the mind that there is simply nothing which could be done to make me like wukky. Any interaction from this point forward would just be forced and I don't think it would feel organic either

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

She got kidnapped off screen, presumably by BKJJ. You imagined she got kidnapped by a nobody and then you got mad at your imagination.

---

Which actually doesn't make it any better.
She gets kidnapped by Bakool Ja Ja and 30 minutes later beats him easily with a literal random shounen power up.