Lyse vs. Wuk Lamat

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Originally Posted by koichiresh

Lol, Nobody is saying that she didn't want to be Dawnservent. But to say she wanted to be one for fun isn't necessarily accurate either. As mentioned she said at the end of Endwalker the stakes of the other contestants winning lol. Read my previous posts.

Edited question: What other motivation did she have besides preventing the bad contestants from being dawnservant?

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I'd have to agree.

Wuk Lamat isn't a genius but she understands the implications of what can happen to her Father's established peace if things go wrong.
She's naive about what it means to be Dawnservant.
She's not naive of the consequences. It's part of her nativity she would seek out the Warrior of Light in the first place.
I mean who's bright idea would it be to ask the person who just saved the star to help you become ruler of a country.

But she's throwing her hat in the ring for her people.
Koana is intelligent but he lacked the understanding of the importance of tradition and culture. Without understanding the peoples for the sake of progress would have caused division and backlash.
Zarool Ja would have thrown the country in wars of expansion making many die in the process for his ambition.
Bakool Jaja was influenced by the fatal flaws of Mamool ja culture and history which would have led to some weird ethno state.

She didn't do it for fun.
She knows what is at stake... she's just not smart or experienced enough to really express it. She has the strength but lacks the courage to wield it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The main difference for me in the two is that I felt like not only did Lyse want me there, she needed me there. She needed the support of her friend. Not just to go hit things, but to help her through her vulnerable periods and uncertainties. To give advice when she needed it. Or just be someone she could lean on when things were rough.

As much as I like the base character of Wuk Lamat, I don't have that same connection to her. I don't feel that I was needed or even really wanted most of the time. I don't really feel that I taught her anything. I don't feel that I was any sort of support.

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I agree with this tbh. With Lyse, we had the build-up to become friends and companions before embarking on a journey together. With Wuk we only have like 2-3 quests before we go to a new continent with her. Wuk kind of just showed up and was like "Hey, help me win this contest even though I've only known you for like 2 days."

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I'd have to agree.

Wuk Lamat isn't a genius but she understands the implications of what can happen to her Father's established peace if things go wrong.
She's naive about what it means to be Dawnservant.
She's not naive of the consequences. It's part of her nativity she would seek out the Warrior of Light in the first place.
I mean who's bright idea would it be to ask the person who just saved the star to help you become ruler of a country.

But she's throwing her hat in the ring for her people.
Koana is intelligent but he lacked the understanding of the importance of tradition and culture. Without understanding the peoples for the sake of progress would have caused division and backlash.
Zarool Ja would have thrown the country in wars of expansion making many die in the process for his ambition.
Bakool Jaja was influenced by the fatal flaws of Mamool ja culture and history which would have led to some weird ethno state.

She didn't do it for fun.
She knows what is at stake... she's just not smart or experienced enough to really express it. She has the strength but lacks the courage to wield it.

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This is actually very well stated and I couldn't have said it better. And let me be clear, I'm not even really a Wuk Lamat fan...
But we really have to separate and break down the story elements objectively without bringing too much harboring emotion into it.

I get what the writers were going for, even if it wasn't stated in the best way possible. But it's very clear that Wuk Lamat knew the consequences if the other contestants won.
That's why in the end, she allowed Koana to step in because she knew she didn't have the reasoning or intellect that he had.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The main difference for me in the two is that I felt like not only did Lyse want me there, she needed me there. She needed the support of her friend. Not just to go hit things, but to help her through her vulnerable periods and uncertainties. To give advice when she needed it. Or just be someone she could lean on when things were rough.

As much as I like the base character of Wuk Lamat, I don't have that same connection to her. I don't feel that I was needed or even really wanted most of the time. I don't really feel that I taught her anything. I don't feel that I was any sort of support.

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You do help her in many ways people describe as annoying. Assurance.

You're the one who encouraged her idea about the float being the cause for the crops failing.
You're there when she's vulnerable.
You're there when she finally stands up for herself against Bakool Jaja.
You're the one that shows her inherited quality from her Father doesn't come from a keen mind or brute strength but from her desire for peace.

Lyse was a badly written characters with flaws but not at our side 24/7.
She had the problem of sidelining the Yda personality and doing a 180 personality flip.

Wuk Lamat is a fanfiction OC with Mary Sue traits and a flat personality on the level of RWBY writing and borderline Yandere with how much she stalks us.
She only speaks the same sentences the entire time the only thing missing was her making a heart shape with her hands.

I take Lyse over her all day.

The writer can keep his body pillow fursona waifu to himself.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand the hyper focus on Wuk Lamat. Whether it's Koana, Zoraal Ja, Bakool Ja Ja, Ketenramm, I can't even remember Erenville's mom's name, etc. You're talking about all the same things. And the few times they do come up against challenges or have development, it's so ham fisted and cliche.

This fanbase has a weird obsession with criticizing female characters and comparing female characters.

Bakool Ja Ja gets away with releasing a deadly beast...we turn off the Endless just because Erenville's mom wants to and thinks it might help defeat Sphene (it doesn't and who would even think that?)...Zoraal Ja gets disqualified but just goes into a room and steals and artifact...dawntrail just sucks guys, I'm sorry.

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I agree with you about how people are weirdly zeroed in on Wuk Lamat. She isn't the only one with problems. Everyone in Dawntrail is horribly written. I guess it's because she gets the most screentime?

My problem with a lot of the female characters is that they are often horribly written. A lot of the ones I like tend to get killed off. I thought Moenbryda was super cool but the story only gave me a glimpse and then took her away. I liked Ysayle a lot. Like Moenbryda, she's dead. I like Lucia a lot. Alisae is my beloved sassy little sister. Tataru is great. Y'shtola also has her moments. Meanwhile, I was over Ida's ditzy blonde schtick in ARR. I hated Lyse so much and thought I would much rather have M'naago as the resistance leader.

I liked Lyse better, but she was also not very interesting. I don't really like Wuk Lamat much at all.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I agree with you about how people are weirdly zeroed in on Wuk Lamat. She isn't the only one with problems. Everyone in Dawntrail is horribly written. I guess it's because she gets the most screentime?

My problem with a lot of the female characters is that they are often horribly written. A lot of the ones I like tend to get killed off. I thought Moenbryda was super cool but the story only gave me a glimpse and then took her away. I liked Ysayle a lot. Like Moenbryda, she's dead. I like Lucia a lot. Alisae is my beloved sassy little sister. Tataru is great. Y'shtola also has her moments. Meanwhile, I was over Ida's ditzy blonde schtick in ARR. I hated Lyse so much and thought I would much rather have M'naago as the resistance leader.

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Y'shtola always seems bland to me. Her best quality is being in some way related to Granny Matoya whom I love very much.
To this day I don't understand people's fixation with moonbird (moanbryda)

Tataru is great.
Alisae is great.
Ysayle was... alright I guess.

Yda/Lyse was fine enough they didn't need to create some convoluted back story that Yda was Lyse's older sister who died and then Lyse took her place pretending to be Yda all this time fooling everyone and the only one in the know was Papylimo.
Like that was needlessly complex.
How Lyse became the leader of the Ala Mhigans - was stranger still but I understood what the story was going for.

I have to agree with Turtle I don't understand the fixation on Wuk Lamat. There are many minute flaws that collectively are head scratchers but not the worst I've seen from FF14.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Y'shtola always seems bland to me. Her best quality is being in some way related to Granny Matoya whom I love very much.
To this day I don't understand people's fixation with moonbird (moanbryda)

Tataru is great.
Alisae is great.
Ysayle was... alright I guess.

Yda/Lyse was fine enough they didn't need to create some convoluted back story that Yda was Lyse's older sister who died and then Lyse took her place pretending to be Yda all this time fooling everyone and the only one in the know was Papylimo.
Like that was needlessly complex.
How Lyse became the leader of the Ala Mhigans - was stranger still but I understood what the story was going for.

I have to agree with Turtle I don't understand the fixation on Wuk Lamat. There are many minute flaws that collectively are head scratchers but not the worst I've seen from FF14.

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The fixation on Wuk Lamat is due to the fact that the game itself is fixated on Wuk Lamat. You cannot escape her terrible character, even in a zone she's not even in. We finally get a break from her in the cowboy zone, except suddenly, the MSQ still has you hunting down her bracelet, instead of doing literally anything else, and then it's right back to Wuk Lamat. You want to do the final trial, and save everyone like the WoL you are? Nope. Here comes Wuk Lamat to save you from the spotlight. The story has to make every single thing about that stupid cat. Literally the only time that any other character gets development is while she's off screen, but you better believe she'll hurry to fix those mistakes as fast as she can, because you can't have the Wuk Lamat expansion without Wuk Lamat.

Take, for instance, when she gets Princess Peached. You get to hang out with Koana. Who is competent, and interesting, and has character growth and motivation. The very instant they free her? Everyone, him, you, the Scions, immediately become 1D caricatures again, so that Wuk Lamat can be the self insert MC again.

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

I miss telling Lyse to shut up

https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/58fa...088397/1x.webp

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Originally Posted by koichiresh

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

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I've explained this in other places, but Writing 101 is to not replace your main characters with an unestablished character, and do NOT establish said characters at the expense of your main characters.

Take, for instance, the Lord of the Rings. That series has several secondary characters, some of which get even more time than Frodo and Sam. But the series took the time to flesh them out before that point. You know Gandalf, Pippin, and Merry. You understand Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli. They don't just drop a random dude on you, and push the characters you've known into the background.

That is Wuk Lamat in a nutshell. To use a different comparison, let's use the Harry Potter series. It seems like a fitting comparison. 7 books, and DT is 7.0. Let's say you read 6 books, all about Harry's adventures, and struggles to defeat Voldemort. Book 7, is suddenly about a character mentioned in a single chapter at the end of book six. And in book 7, Harry has almost no lines, has almost no interaction with the plot, and only exists to make this new character look good. Oh, and of course, the new character gets the killing blow on Voldemort, because of course they do.

That is Dawntrail, right there. A character with no development, no establishment, suddenly taking center stage at the expense of every established character around her. Even if they weren't one of the worst characters in the game, that alone is a cardinal sin of writing.

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Originally Posted by koichiresh

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...

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It was a totally different vibe. If anything, The Adventurer's reputation in FFXI was more earned because grinding it up was actually something you had to do before some people would even talk to you (for both side content and main scenario missions). So it had that air of "Oh yeah, we can rely on <your character here> because they've been pretty helpful to others." But yes, your character was never the focus of the story and was mostly along for the ride. That being said, it captured the feel of going on an adventure with the characters very well, especially in CoP which had a nice little entourage involved in the quests.

I remember getting to Solution Nine and being relieved Wuk wouldn't follow me. Then she followed me yet again... It was surreal that I was getting my social battery drained by a fictional character. Meanwhile in StB didn't feel Lyse was always breathing down my neck. Cannot say the same about Wuk.

It's weird that people take Lyse as not a joke character all of a sudden, when we had what 2+ years of her being comedic relief and a joke for a origin, then we repackaged her into an arguably troubled "oh we can just solve it forehead".

Sorry but the first intro to Lyse starts with Yda and we need to stop pretending like we can forget that she was a joke character for quite a long time just cause its convenient. In that respect, her (in her Yda faze) and Wuk were comparable, if not almost a similar archetype outside of the "family / papa" stuff.

Wuk Lamat in her first 7 months of introduction is far superior to Lyse in the way she was handled even after 3+ years of development of the character and anyone saying otherwise is ridiculously capping considering to this day most people still think Lyse was handled terribly (even when they improved her in the 4.X patches). What Wuk needs right now, is a bigger challenge philosophically, something that power of friendship can't outright solve. They could have had it with Sphene maybe but that has passed, needs to be something else now.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

It's weird that people take Lyse as not a joke character all of a sudden, when we had what 2+ years of her being comedic relief and a joke for a origin, then we repackaged her into an arguably troubled "oh we can just solve it forehead".

Sorry but the first intro to Lyse starts with Yda and we need to stop pretending like we can forget that she was a joke character for quite a long time just cause its convenient. In that respect, her (in her Yda faze) and Wuk were comparable, if not almost a similar archetype outside4.X patches) of the "family / papa" stuff.

Wuk Lamat in her first 7 months of introduction is far superior to Lyse in the way she was handled even after 3+ years of development of the character and anyone saying otherwise is ridiculously capping considering to this day most people still think Lyse was handled terribly (even when they improved her in the 4.X patches). What Wuk needs right now, is a bigger challenge philosophically, something that power of friendship can't outright solve. They could have had it with Sphene maybe but that has passed, needs to be something else now.

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Wuk Lamat and Lyse were both at their best in comedic moments. They both should have had more.

https://i.imgur.com/AF7S9Od.gif

https://i.imgur.com/VTp79Ar.gif

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

I remember getting to Solution Nine and being relieved Wuk wouldn't follow me. Then she followed me yet again... It was surreal that I was getting my social battery drained by a fictional character. Meanwhile in StB didn't feel Lyse was always breathing down my neck. Cannot say the same about Wuk.

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The final trial was so good because we finally had 5 minutes without her joined at our hip. Then SURPRISE!

Compared to Wuk Lamat ...... Let's have another Lyse expansion.

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

Compared to Wuk Lamat ...... Let's have another Lyse expansion.

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Not gonna lie I miss Lyse and a lot of the cast of StB personally.

I'll be honest I still dislike Lyse slightly more as she ruined Papalymo and Yda for me. Though stormblood was far more tolerable because she wasn't inserted in every single scene like Wuk is. I had breathing room away from her so I didn't hate my entire time in the MSQ.

You guys do realize we are in the New World... For Wuk Lamat.

You guys are saying you don't like the focus around the central character who is the whole reason we're there in the first place.

Specially for those of you claiming the arrogance of Writing 101.

An unestablished character with no development so called.

Is being established and developed before your very eyes.

You guys don't even question the necessity of having all the scions along.
What further development are characters with 10 years of development supposed to have exactly?

The Twins should have stayed in Garlemald. There is no reason for them to be here.
Y'shtola up until the invasion should have stayed wherever she was.
The only cardinal sin - was Graha staying behind on our "next adventure" the thing he wanted to do with us.
Kriles catharsis is softlocked to the ending but it's not as though it wasn't getting its proper focus.
Esitinien always plays the JRPG role of Strong character who joins your party at the end which admittedly this time was baited too long so his reintroduction was shortlived.
Thancred and Urianger are focused enough plenty as is Koana - They are the opposing team. i.e. we're not supposed to see them.
And the only reason to see them is to allow you to know more about Koana while at the same time soft hint he's gonna be more of a good guy than a bad guy.

Erenville and his unexplained angst. That's the only thing that isn't really explored or explained.

So what's the character we're supposed to focus on and develop otherwise?

Which is the one?
Zarool Ja? Why? outside Wuk Lamats sibling relationship there's not much there to explore - he's a complete stoic.
Bakool Jaja? The giant 10 ft lizard equivalent of Gary Oak (with a penchant for kidnapping and releasing powerful demigods)

But like seriously where was the focus supposed to be other than Wuk Lamat. Your literal and physical - Call to adventure. Unlike other central figures your Aymerics, your Lyse/Hien, Crystal Exarch (while being a call to adventure is relegated to the crystal tower)/Ryne,
Most of the Scions arcs, Are done. They are 10 years of complete characters by now.
What's there to learn?

Better yet when wasn't Wuk Lamat supposed to be there? It's not during the Succession Contest, how are you supposed to write a story of a character coming into their own, if you relegate them to the background.
Like seriously imagine the corrination ceremony where we spent a quest collecting firewood with Alphinaud.
Or if the story focused more on Krile the whole time.
"I'm here because of my Granddad, Boy I sure hope I can find out more about my Granddad; Do you think this Earing makes me look cute? It was from my Granddad, You know I'm hoping we can find out more about my Grandad, Nobody seems to know anything about my Grandad or this earing how sadge amirite?"

Again Krile is a very mature fully formed individual and her questions are brought up at the right times to the right people like a rational adult. You're on a quest to help Wuk Lamat.
But apparently having her as the central focus makes no sense to some of you.

I can properly think of where Wuk Lamats character doesn't really work.
And that's post killing Zarool Ja. Once we got to go to the "Golden City aka Unlost city aka Living Memory" to defeat Sphene to stop all this craziness once and for all. Wuk Lamat didn't need to be there.
Unlike Zarool Ja, this isn't a family affair. If Wuklamat doesn't appear then Yshtola whose whole goal post scions is to explore the many different shards and worlds makes more sense... And I don't even like Yshtola. Bringing along a strong guy like Estinien makes sense also.

Wuk Lamat at the end. Zero sense.

But other than that which is what. 10 or 11 quests. Wuk Lamat's presence throughout the story was completely warranted. Maybe Erenville could have been written better to bounce off as a character or understand why he's being such a angsty fussy bun-bun the whole time, but as soon as Koana starts getting developed as a character, Erenville's whole gravitas as Wuk Lamat's straight man (comedic term) disappears. Hell we don't even really get a reaction from him when Wuk Lamat gets kidnapped in fact I think he mosey on ahead to the next zone. Like wtf was his problem? But that's not Wuk Lamats fault that happened. It's the writers fault for leaving a thread and then doing nothing with it the whole expansion.

Like the most unangsty Erenville is - is about 5 minutes into Shaaloni before he's angsty again... then when the dome goes down genuinely being concerned <- widest range of emotion shown... followed by being angsty again. Both immediately suspecting his mother is dead (can't remember her name that's how forgettable she was) exacerbates things by lying, then Erenville has like a twilight zone moment where he discovers "oh my gawd... My Mother IS DEAD!?" Like he was the first one to suspect anything his mother gaslights him into thinking it's a robot being piloted at a distance.

So if anything Erenville is the poorly written character for this expansion especially since he took on the narration role.

Wuk Lamat brought us there to help her become Dawnservant for her peoples sake.
If you compare that to Lyse whom we are with the whole time, For one thing, Lyse herself is a completely unestablished character with no development, the girl has been pretending to be her dead sister for years. I don't know who Lyse is. I know who Yda was... or who Lyse pretending to be Yda was.

Then is thrust into a leadership position, then as the stakes are at their highest we knee-capped it for an excursion into fantasy Japan to help them stop the evil foreigners (boy I wonder what era of fantasy Japan... This is supposed to be) Matthew C. Perry told them they couldn't be an isolationist country. So we help Japanese Aymeric (Hien) relight the banners of Gondor and save his people from the clutches of the evil Westerners so he can help us do a Pearl Harbor in Ala Mhigo later. This results in Lyse becoming the leader of Ala Mhigo a role thrust upon her she's not prepared for. She doesn't learn any lessons and most of the time is complaining to disillusioned and desperate people that they can't give up! Because Garlemald is bad!

(And I liked Stormblood and Lyse, Yall are making me look at this stuff the most mean-spirited way because you're not giving Wuk Lamat a chance, At least Wuk Lamat wanted to become Dawnservant, She's not smart but she understands the consequences of what can happen if other people become the Dawnservant, which would ruin her Father's legacy.)

Our major villains in Stormblood are a dominatrix who doesn't get development until 4.x (almost kills my favorite character from the whole expansion Gosetsu)
And Zenos whom at the time and many still do consider him to be one of the worst villains we've had of all time (these aren't even my sentiments of the story - But I pay attention to what fans complain about)


Sigh* TL;DR

So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

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Originally Posted by koichiresh

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

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Why are you assuming anyone with issues played XI and were okay with things there? I didn't play XI. I did play WoW which did the similar sidelining while the NPC did all the interesting things. I hated it. In this game, being the catalyst of the story events gives me a connection to the story I never got in WoW. And I went into this expansion perfectly okay to take on a mentor role. But then they didn't even have us mentor in anything. We were just there and when I can replace my character with a nodding cardboard cutout then it takes me as a player completely out of the story.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I couldn't stand Lyse for the entirety of Stormblood. She never seemed to grow, and she was rewarded for this lack of growth by getting everything she wanted; groups who didn't see eye-to-eye with her eventually agreed that Lyse was actually right, those who didn't do it Lyse's way were punished, and Lyse was awarded the highest ranking military position despite demonstrating terrible leadership skills.

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You spelled Wuk and Dawntrail wrong through this entire section btw

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Originally Posted by koichiresh

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

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Not exactly. While the overall story in an FFXI expansion would be about the Heroine, your story would usually only briefly intersect with her at key moments. She wasn't with you the whole time or overshadowing you in cutscenes, you were usually off doing the grunt work for some friend of her assistant. Somebody needs an old tablet from the Temple of Uggalepih to find out more about a prophecy or whatever? That's your job. And also fighting the ghost that pops when you click on it. And when you get back you get a cutscene where the Heroine shows up and tells you what she's been up to, but then you split up again. You'd usually become closer to her as the story progressed and eventually be considered her friend and your role in the story would get more and more important, until the final boss fight where you team up with her.

Also, I doubt anybody ever would've felt sidelined because doing the actual content was a feat unto itself. Even if the cutscene was lame you felt great for having actually gotten past any boss. The game was pretty hard and getting a group together was even harder. Sometimes you'd wipe just walking through the world to get to the boss arena (especially in CoP).

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Originally Posted by Nadda

So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

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Your analogy falls flat when almost every book in that series focuses on a different main character. The magician's nephew wasn't about the four. Neither was Prince Caspian, A Horse and his Boy, or even the Silver Chair.

Lyse is palatable because she has spent most of her life outside of the Ala Mhigo territory where men are condemned to either be drafted or to toil in poverty. Lyse has spent her life in Eorzea where there is freedom and relative prosperity, so her coming into Stormblood and having difficulty understanding the mindset of the people is understandable. There was also no expectation that she was supposed to become their leader either. Also, Lyse is not the main character of the story, so anything unlikeable about her can be overlooked because there are other likeable characters like Raubahn, Hien, Gosetsu, etc.

Wuk Lamat is an adult princess who apparently does not even know basic information about the land she seeks to rule over, and we are expected to install her as ruler from the get go. Also, the story heavily revolves around her, so if you don't like her then that sucks since she has so much screentime.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Your analogy falls flat when almost every book in that series focuses on a different main character. The magician's nephew wasn't about the four. Neither was Prince Caspian, A Horse and his Boy, or even the Silver Chair.

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Not when Prince Caspian came out. Prince Caspian is the second book released after Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.

Magicians Nephew was the sixth book released. It's a prequel in a sense to before the Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.

But I digress the analogy stands quite well within the confines of my argument.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand the hyper focus on Wuk Lamat. Whether it's Koana, Zoraal Ja, Bakool Ja Ja, Ketenramm, I can't even remember Erenville's mom's name, etc. You're talking about all the same things. And the few times they do come up against challenges or have development, it's so ham fisted and cliche.

This fanbase has a weird obsession with criticizing female characters and comparing female characters.

Bakool Ja Ja gets away with releasing a deadly beast...we turn off the Endless just because Erenville's mom wants to and thinks it might help defeat Sphene (it doesn't and who would even think that?)...Zoraal Ja gets disqualified but just goes into a room and steals and artifact...dawntrail just sucks guys, I'm sorry.

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Wuk lamat is 95% of the screen time this expansion.
It should not be surprising she's the majority of criticism with Dawntrails writing

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Originally Posted by Nadda

You guys do realize
So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

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Caspian was not unlikeable, and the expectations were different. Caspian was educated by the secretly Narnian tutor so he wasn't an utter incompetent, and was destined to be king over all of the little critters, and he doesn't have to compete with any other humans (the Pevensies were just visiting and were already over their rulership and aren't going to rebel against Aslan and rob Caspian) Wuk Lamat is unlikeable, incompetent, and fails to justify why she should be leader over anyone else, let alone her two more capable brothers.

Lyse didn't go 'Zenos, listen to me!' and continue to beat the crap out of him alone in the final trial so she is better in my books

Come to think of it, if Wuk is in Endwalker she would've also broke through space and time to killsteal both Endsinger and Zenos

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

Caspian was not unlikeable, and the expectations were different. Caspian was educated by the secretly Narnian tutor so he wasn't an utter incompetent, and was destined to be king over all of the little critters, and he doesn't have to compete with any other humans (the Pevensies were just visiting and were already over their rulership and aren't going to rebel against Aslan and rob Caspian) Wuk Lamat is unlikeable, incompetent, and fails to justify why she should be leader over anyone else, let alone her two more capable brothers.

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Narnia also purposely didn't follow the same main characters for 6 books straight. You didn't have to read most of the others to enjoy Horse and His Boy since that one was pretty standalone outside briefly seeing the 4 while they were the kings and queens of Narnia. What Dawntrail did was more like reading Lord of the Rings and swapping the main character to a random hobbit once you get to the Scouring of the Shire while Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry do bugger all.

Wuk is good, she seriously grow with the tasks ahead, Lyse seem more monotome.

But not so much ruining the game as people think, people just got issues with themself and wanting the game to be all about them, but hey, neither of you are developers on this project, it is not your game and that it is not like what you want it to be is much more a blessing than the world is going under during a cataclysm or something down those lines.

Play the game, most of you circus clowns spend more time on the fora, than at the game at all, or story skipped it all and now complain.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

Caspian was not unlikeable, and the expectations were different. Caspian was educated by the secretly Narnian tutor so he wasn't an utter incompetent, and was destined to be king over all of the little critters, and he doesn't have to compete with any other humans (the Pevensies were just visiting and were already over their rulership and aren't going to rebel against Aslan and rob Caspian) Wuk Lamat is unlikeable, incompetent, and fails to justify why she should be leader over anyone else, let alone her two more capable brothers.

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Your personal preferences aside.
Wuk Lamat was likable.

Ask for competency or lack thereof in what regard?

Her brothers would have made terrible individual leaders. I'm not certain if you were paying attention but Zarool Ja wanted to turn Turral into a conquering Warmachine. In Koanas aspirations for technological innovations of other cultures, he disregards the people he would rule all with myriad of strong cultural traditions.

One such culture Bakool Jaja was conspiring for a Mamool Ja Ethno state for instance or the despot factions of Yok Huy. How can you hope to hold together such factions in which to share innovations if you don't understand them? Civil War.

Wuk Lamat isn't as strong as Zarool Ja. She isn't as intelligent as Koana.

She throws her hat into the ring as Dawnservant for the peace the Legacy Gulool Jaja represents.
She has the emotional intuition to understand things could go very wrong.
She knows her own weaknesses quite well, which is why she elects for a Diarchy with her brother Koana.

Leaders are leaders not for being the most capable in the room. Leaders are in their position because of their intuition, strength, and charisma. Qualities that Wuk Lamat had all along but didn't realize it.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Wuk is good, she seriously grow with the tasks ahead, Lyse seem more monotome.

But not so much ruining the game as people think, people just got issues with themself and wanting the game to be all about them, but hey, neither of you are developers on this project, it is not your game and that it is not like what you want it to be is much more a blessing than the world is going under during a cataclysm or something down those lines.

Play the game, most of you circus clowns spend more time on the fora, than at the game at all, or story skipped it all and now complain.

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How to make the own post worthless.
Insult those who criticize, say the game is not for them, imply they skipped cutscenes.
If that is your defense of the story that’s kinda cute.

Let me tell you something groundbreaking.
You don‘t need to produce a product to criticize it. Otherwise every quality department would be unneeded and yes there exists quality control for writing.

Feedback is important even if negative. That’s how we got a normal looking sonic for the movies after all.

Worst of all is that you make all those look back who have real arguments for liking the story.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

How to make the own post worthless.
Insult those who criticize, say the game is not for them, imply they skipped cutscenes.
If that is your defense of the story that’s kinda cute.

Let me tell you something groundbreaking.
You don‘t need to produce a product to criticize it. Otherwise every quality department would be unneeded and yes there exists quality control for writing.

Feedback is important even if negative. That’s how we got a normal looking sonic for the movies after all.

Worst of all is that you make all those look back who have real arguments for liking the story.

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No but when the general consensus is so obtuse, mean spirited and vitriolic you get what you have coming to you.

We got people here talking about what is and isn't good writing.

And supplementing it with subjective HEAVILY subjective opinion. In the nastiest way possible.

Like even I recognize flaws with the story but you can do it in an honest way where you take the bad as bad not dump what feels like boxed-up emotional trauma on a fictional Cat Girl who played the role given to her in the story quite well.

Of course, someone else who isn't as mean-spirited will come along and say something a bit unfair.

The discussion surrounding Wuk Lamat is itself unfair. It's just a reflection of the general attitude of people here nothing more.

Talking with such venom and spiteful wrath it's disgusting. It captured me briefly as well in this thread. You should all take care of your words.

This Themarvin may lack the ability to express what she truly thinks but if level heads prevailed you'd have found a more level-headed reaction.

A modicum of introspection and levelheadedness would go a long way. Far too much emotional charges going off for civil conversation. The more critical the less rational.

Man people bringing up Narnia and Lord of the Rings makes me wanna go reread them as a pallet cleanser after Dawntrail. Such good stories.

I never, ever thought I'd say this but...

I miss Lyse.

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Originally Posted by 1313

IDC what anybody says, I'm a big fan of both Lyse and Wuk. Most people probably don't even genuinely dislike them, more likely that they just say what other people say and chime in on dissing the characters since other people are doing it, or they simply dislike them because some of the quests that character is associated with are annoying/dragged out etc. It's why I will always have a bit of hatred for alphinaud, because many years ago when I was unwise and inexperienced, I had to walk across like 4 zones to meet with alphinaud when i had 0 gil and no mount. When i finally made it to him, he stood in a room full of people staring at the floor, made me talk to everyone for him, then report back to him while he sat there picking his nose. Kill that little brat off for good and never mention him again.

People complained about minifilia being the secretary of light who never actually did anything besides telling us what to do.
They gave us Lyse, after they changed her appearance (went from face 5 midlander with a mask to unique face midlander when she revealed her identity), who is everything that people said they wanted from minfilia, then they just decided to hate on her after getting everything they wanted. Maybe the players are just misogynists.

So far Dawntrail story is already better than SHB by several units of measurement so large that they are beyond comprehension, and SHB is said to be "the best expansion". All of the dungeons I've done have been an improvement from previous ones. The game looks and sounds better. We got a nice chill questline from 90-95 with lots of exploring and learning about the cultures across the new regions. Lots of pretty sights to see too. I see a lot of people complaining out here but I don't actually see much worth complaining about.

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I have to wonder what kind of medication you're on. Dawntrail's story is better than SHB's? HOW?!?! The characters are flat, the world revolves completely around Wuk, the villains are easily forgettable, the voice acting and dialogue is flat... Whatever drugs you're taking, I don't want to be within a country of them.

Lyse is not even close to wuklamat in terms of being annoying, no character has overstayed their welcome more than wuk

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Originally Posted by Nadda

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They called people criticizing circus clowns and having issues with themselves.
They said people skipped cutscenes if they hate the story.
Do you really want to defend that?
I said time and time again that I don‘t have a problem with others liking the story but if you go down to personal attacks no matter the side then you lose the argument and there is no defending.

Explain please how I have coming for me what exactly?
Did I personally attack anyone of you? Did I forbid you from posting your opinion?
Did I ever call someone liking the story out in any form?

Such behavior is not acceptable!