A plea for RNG and proc based gameplay

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Originally Posted by vetch

There goes Yoshida making up bullshit false dichotomies again. Planning around RNG correctly is a skill. RNG jobs are skill-based. They just ask for other skills besides 'do your 20-step rotation and don't drift your cooldowns'.

File this one in the Yoshida's Nonsense Bin with his 'pure/barrier healer' split and his 'main/off-tank' split.

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Yup. I'd go as far as saying rotations that have to consider RNG requires more skill (or at least more observation) than static sequences. The latter is simply memorization, which to me isn't particularly interesting.

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Originally Posted by vetch

There goes Yoshida making up bullshit false dichotomies again. Planning around RNG correctly is a skill. RNG jobs are skill-based. They just ask for other skills besides 'do your 20-step rotation and don't drift your cooldowns'.

File this one in the Yoshida's Nonsense Bin with his 'pure/barrier healer' split and his 'main/off-tank' split.

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I mean, getting boned by RNG isn't really a skill. It's just pure suffering.

I find the secret to RNG mechanics to be just getting enough rolls at the table. Over time the rolls will even out. This is a lot trickier when you have such high potency variance because you're not going to make up a 3.2x multiplier on a 1000 potency attack. Which brings up the second design constraint: burst windows are antithetical to RNG based jobs -- they just ramp up the multiplier.

Raid encounter design would have to change to make room for rng. right now rng just makes you worse than everyone else sometimes for no reason and it's outside of your control

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

yall act like you are not all just going to the balance for your full rotation break down and print out anyways..

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The nice thing about procs is they make those full rotations not as important because then it becomes a priority system not just "do this list over and over til the boss is dead"

RNG is also my preferred style.

I enjoy proc priority; focusing more on reducing loss from an abundance of resources than from squeezing blood out of a stone using a restricted, set rotation. I also enjoy reacting and making decisions.
I don't enjoy long combos that take up an unreasonable number of keybinds for filler abilities with little/no difference between them, so in that regard I'm very excited to try some melee jobs other than Reaper in Dawntrail.

Honestly if DNC hadn't come out when I started playing FFXIV again I may not have stuck with the game so long after MSQ but it's genuinely fun to play because of the RNG (and mobility, but it's hardly the only one with that). None of the other jobs really clicked with me and it took a very long time before I warmed up to a couple more roles - time I probably wouldn't have stuck around for if I didn't have DNC to fall back on.

I wish they let a few more jobs really lean into RNG so we had more options, but barring that I hope they just never change DNC in any significant way.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I find the secret to RNG mechanics to be just getting enough rolls at the table. Over time the rolls will even out. This is a lot trickier when you have such high potency variance because you're not going to make up a 3.2x multiplier on a 1000 potency attack. Which brings up the second design constraint: burst windows are antithetical to RNG based jobs -- they just ramp up the multiplier.

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This is another reason why I'm confused about DT's job design choices because they added a ton of 1k+ potency actions that do not auto-DH/crit so now everyone is subject to more RNG-based damage variance overall.

Procs are cool, it's why I enjoy playing BRD, and RDM. The jobs have a good balance between RNG, and static moments, and they don't clash with each other. MNK is also fun with the chakras. It would be nice to see more light RNG in more jobs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

After the release of job changes in the media tour, it becomes obvious to me that the devs just hate RNG and proc gameplay.

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RNG is almost always "poor" gameplay. You're replacing skill with random chance. When it comes to optimal gameplay, a proc-based job will be passed over in favor of the non-proc-based play.

Where RNG can be "good" gameplay is when the proc itself bounces the variables. So you are never required to fire off the proc for optimal play, but if you press it correctly, your next chain adds more damage, or has less recast, or something like that, and it just stacks until you cast something the proc doesn't apply to, or get KO'd. Optimal gameplay is then simply "using" the proc rather than having hold off using the proc for the optimal usage time.

Like the problem with AST for example, is that the cards are random, thus you can't plan anything. So what you tend to run into are AST's who just either don't use the cards, or they use the cards on themselves because that extra time required to target another player reduces their DPS, or they miss a group heal or some excuse. Nevermind how useless it is to fish for the Cure1/Benefic1 proc. MP is not a problem anymore. Lucid Dreaming is available at level 14 (60s CD), the first dungeon is level 15. You used to not have a 'refresh' skill until level 36 (Shroud of Saints, 120s CD). So the need to fish for a "freecure" is non-existent.

When things are "random" in terms of their availability, then they are just not used, or sometimes just too much stress to use, what if I get "good proc" when I don't need it and it kills the CD when I need it? What if I get a proc that isn't useful here?

The actual design of the game has been stripping out a lot of things that make jobs and races different because otherwise people would build meta's of 'best in slot' gear + "best DPS", nothing else get's used. Remember that the original races had some very small (like 2 points) differences in stats. You used to be able to put bonus points into certain stats. You used to be able to meld elemental affinity to gear. All of that is "random" variables that a dungeon choreography can't deal with, and NPC players won't have. I would love for there to be reasons to swap, say a full "fire" affinity set with a full water affinity set to do more damage, or protect against certain bosses, but the actual dungeon design does not want you to do this. We've seen games do this, and players just wear the gear that makes them super strong just to go glass-cannon and one-shot the boss. Then they never use that gear again. Farm the dungeon till you get what you want, and then repeat for the next one.

That's why you can't really do RNG based combat in this game. It encourages players to play the optimal meta and ignore everything else.

...what?

anyway agree, most fun recent mmo class I've played outside of FFXIV was Arcana in Lost Ark, Empress and Emperor. It'd be nice if something scratched the same itch. Current jobs that involve some decision making around what procs you get when (BLM and BRD from my experience) show tiny tiny amounts of how fun a whole RNG job could be.

I have wanted a job with the proc/priority system playstyle in FF14 since I tried out fury warrior in dragonflight. It's about 4 or 5 buttons that will randomly reset their CDs and it's all about just knowing which of them is the most important to press. That combined with a really fast playstyle kept it really entertaining for me.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I have wanted a job with the proc/priority system playstyle in FF14 since I tried out fury warrior in dragonflight. It's about 4 or 5 buttons that will randomly reset their CDs and it's all about just knowing which of them is the most important to press. That combined with a really fast playstyle kept it really entertaining for me.

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WoW has some of the best combat playstyle in my honest opinion, it can be very quick and snappy and actually involves some sort off thinking and skill instead of pressing the same buttons over and over ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

WoW has some of the best combat playstyle in my honest opinion, it can be very quick and snappy and actually involves some sort off thinking and skill instead of pressing the same buttons over and over ad nauseam.

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I disagree, but I also despise WoW's proc-based gameplay. That said, my hatred of WoW's general playstyle doesn't mean that FFXIV shouldn't have it, and I do agree that FFXIV needs more proc-based classes. Just not on classes where procs didn't make sense. BLM is always brought up as a proc class, and it indeed used to be a proc mage, but ever since HW, the procs have been a smaller and smaller part of the class. But BRD used to be more proc-dependent than it is now, and RDM used to have a second proc. Not sure how I'd specifically work the procs back in, but it would be nice if the devs did for people who want proc classes.

Also, proc tank and proc melee.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Raid encounter design would have to change to make room for rng. right now rng just makes you worse than everyone else sometimes for no reason and it's outside of your control

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You're aware that the variance of rng jobs just doesn't swing that high right, considering the sample amount of the total of skills that generate procs in the whole duration of a fight? For bard, there is 400 repertoire ticks potentially generating procs with a 80% chance behind over a 10min long encounter for example. In comparison, there is only 5 uses of a 2min burst 1000+ potency skill over the same length for a lot of non rng jobs, so it's not much of a stretch to imagine the actual swing in crit variance this will actually bring in comparison.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

RNG is almost always "poor" gameplay. You're replacing skill with random chance. When it comes to optimal gameplay, a proc-based job will be passed over in favor of the non-proc-based play.

Where RNG can be "good" gameplay is when the proc itself bounces the variables. So you are never required to fire off the proc for optimal play, but if you press it correctly, your next chain adds more damage, or has less recast, or something like that, and it just stacks until you cast something the proc doesn't apply to, or get KO'd. Optimal gameplay is then simply "using" the proc rather than having hold off using the proc for the optimal usage time.

Like the problem with AST for example, is that the cards are random, thus you can't plan anything. So what you tend to run into are AST's who just either don't use the cards, or they use the cards on themselves because that extra time required to target another player reduces their DPS, or they miss a group heal or some excuse. Nevermind how useless it is to fish for the Cure1/Benefic1 proc. MP is not a problem anymore. Lucid Dreaming is available at level 14 (60s CD), the first dungeon is level 15. You used to not have a 'refresh' skill until level 36 (Shroud of Saints, 120s CD). So the need to fish for a "freecure" is non-existent.

When things are "random" in terms of their availability, then they are just not used, or sometimes just too much stress to use, what if I get "good proc" when I don't need it and it kills the CD when I need it? What if I get a proc that isn't useful here?

The actual design of the game has been stripping out a lot of things that make jobs and races different because otherwise people would build meta's of 'best in slot' gear + "best DPS", nothing else get's used. Remember that the original races had some very small (like 2 points) differences in stats. You used to be able to put bonus points into certain stats. You used to be able to meld elemental affinity to gear. All of that is "random" variables that a dungeon choreography can't deal with, and NPC players won't have. I would love for there to be reasons to swap, say a full "fire" affinity set with a full water affinity set to do more damage, or protect against certain bosses, but the actual dungeon design does not want you to do this. We've seen games do this, and players just wear the gear that makes them super strong just to go glass-cannon and one-shot the boss. Then they never use that gear again. Farm the dungeon till you get what you want, and then repeat for the next one.

That's why you can't really do RNG based combat in this game. It encourages players to play the optimal meta and ignore everything else.

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There is infinitely more skill in making decisions on the fly and dealing with randomly generated chaos than just following a set sequence of buttons... If you're referring to DNC or BRD GCD procs for example, it's true that there is nothing much beyond "just press what lights up", but even this is still harder than just going for the next predictable combo step that also lights up.

Now if you introduce procs within the contest of a burst window, then suddenly they dramatically introduce choices and triaging and priorities to make quick reactions with since depending on with what procs you enter the burst or not you'll have to re arrange your burst sequence, and then potentially further re arrange it again as soon as procs appear as long a the burst isn't over.

As for the filler segments, again, MCH ammo did it already well by making your adjust to the procs you already had (or not) and how to triage them into the correct order of use.

We had a lot of good rng/proc examples in the past, and even today there is still some remnants of it, it does work in the game if made right.

I do agree with you though, you can do much, much more around a proc system.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, getting boned by RNG isn't really a skill. It's just pure suffering.

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I mean, I respect your feeling and tastes on rng, but do we really have to draw a line in the ground so that your kind stops coming over the fence to tell us how we should enjoy the jobs we main, and how we don't deserve to retain or have a bit more of a type of gameplay we enjoy? It's not like the game is lacking of non rng jobs right now...

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

The nice thing about procs is they make those full rotations not as important because then it becomes a priority system not just "do this list over and over til the boss is dead"

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on this point we definitely agree, my only concern is that this game will devolve to a place where a class is only viable via luck, as many other games have done previously, there needs to be a balance.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I disagree, but I also despise WoW's proc-based gameplay. That said, my hatred of WoW's general playstyle doesn't mean that FFXIV shouldn't have it, and I do agree that FFXIV needs more proc-based classes. Just not on classes where procs didn't make sense. BLM is always brought up as a proc class, and it indeed used to be a proc mage, but ever since HW, the procs have been a smaller and smaller part of the class. But BRD used to be more proc-dependent than it is now, and RDM used to have a second proc. Not sure how I'd specifically work the procs back in, but it would be nice if the devs did for people who want proc classes.

Also, proc tank and proc melee.

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Sadly with the release of PCT and VPR the Dev team are doubling down on the boring static rotations and moving more and more jobs away from proccing, while I'd love a proc based class I can't see it happening, it's one of the main reasons I dislike combat in this game, its too sluggish for my tastes but I come from a Mage/Hunter background.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

on this point we definitely agree, my only concern is that this game will devolve to a place where a class is only viable via luck, as many other games have done previously, there needs to be a balance.

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Personally i'd rather they design around fun rather than the parsing side of things, but there's always RNG protection if a class became too rng dependant

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Personally i'd rather they design around fun rather than the parsing side of things, but there's always RNG protection if a class became too rng dependant

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RNG isnt fun unless you are winning.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

RNG isnt fun unless you are winning.

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Tbh this goes to show you're not fully understanding whats being asked for, for example lets use a WoW frost mage as example,

Your first attack is a frost bolt, which can proc brain freeze or ice lance or both the proc rate is generally quite high but not 100% guaranteed, but with the proc in hand you are given a choice, the ice lance is a guaranteed crit which is great but the brain freeze allows you to cast flurry which throws 3 small attacks at the enemy causing whats known as shatter which will increase crit damage, but even if you are unlucky and you dont get procs on your first frostbolt you are given a buff which increases your chance at getting a proc which resets after a proc is achieved, you are also given tools and other abilities which allows you to proc your abilities more often.

sorry will stop there my cat has decided hes wants to lie across my kbnoard and knock over all my folded washing

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...671&height=671

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Tbh this goes to show you're not fully understanding whats being asked for, for example lets use a WoW frost mage as example,

Your first attack is a frost bolt, which can proc brain freeze or ice lance or both the proc rate is generally quite high but not 100% guaranteed, but with the proc in hand you are given a choice, the ice lance is a guaranteed crit which is great but the brain freeze allows you to cast flurry which throws 3 small attacks at the enemy causing whats known as shatter which will increase crit damage, but even if you are unlucky and you dont get procs on your first frostbolt you are given a buff which increases your chance at getting a proc which resets after a proc is achieved, you are also given tools and other abilities which allows you to proc your abilities more often.



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but then you have the pull where you dont proc and end up spamming frostbolt and are half the dps of everyone else..

not to mention in wow you can pump your crit stat enough to guarantee crits in certain windows...
even tho that means in certain content that frost is worthless to the other specs that can get a lot more out of the crit..

not to mention wow doesn't run on tight enrage windows that require performance to kill the boss before it instant wins... yes i know they exist in wow, but even on mythic you can beat that wit a green parse...

what do i know i'm only CE..

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

but then you have the pull where you dont proc and end up spamming frostbolt and are half the dps of everyone else..

not to mention in wow you can pump your crit stat enough to guarantee crits in certain windows...
even tho that means in certain content that frost is worthless to the other specs that can get a lot more out of the crit..

not to mention wow doesn't run on tight enrage windows that require performance to kill the boss before it instant wins... yes i know they exist in wow, but even on mythic you can beat that wit a green parse...

what do i know i'm only CE..

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It's extremely rare to get that unlucky but I get it, you don't like proc based gameplay and you will shoot this down.. because you are CE.

I think the balance is to have a couple jobs that use a proc/priority system so that if you don't like the system you can play something else if they were to implement it. Would be nice to have representation of a different playstyle than static rotation for almost everything like now.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mean, I respect your feeling and tastes on rng, but do we really have to draw a line in the ground so that your kind stops coming over the fence to tell us how we should enjoy the jobs we main, and how we don't deserve to retain or have a bit more of a type of gameplay we enjoy? It's not like the game is lacking of non rng jobs right now...

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Tell us how you really feel.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

It's extremely rare to get that unlucky but I get it, you don't like proc based gameplay and you will shoot this down.. because you are CE.

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no i dont like unnecessary proc based gameplay ham-fisted in to rotations that dont call for them....
especially from dev teams that show they are incapable of balancing the non prc based game play we already have..

wow has 39 specs all with 60+ talents to juggle in each spec, they are the standard of combat for this genera of game. ffxiv is not capable of that amount of dev time on a single class let alone all 19 specs... wow has changed and re-balanced their classes more in the current xpac than square has ever, and as a result every spec in the game is within 5% of each other. go ahead and tell me with a straight face that square can achieve that.

but know its because i'm CE, definitely not that i have thought out the negative implications of the request made from the heart and not the brain.

now excuse me, my RDM friend has crawled on my desk to cry that they have to swap to BLM if they want an invite..

also off topic: do you just keep dirty socks on your desk by your keyboard.. thats kinda gross..

Dunno why people are so against RNG when crit variance has haunted the entire roster for years.

With that said, a kit built from the ground up around risk management is going to fare better than a static kit with an RNG element stapled on. DNC is kinda bad at this but current BLM does it well. You have tools for worst case RNG and the procs are instant, giving BLM weave slots and movement, and is otherwise tightly integrated into the kit. This is independent of how hard one is trying to optimize- lower skilled players will find the additional movement comfy, while the most cracked of spreadsheet nerds can have their builder/spender lines.

As someone who primarily plays WoW at a somewhat high enough level (Mythic raids cleared each tier with plenty of time to spare on farm) and is a casual andy in FF14 that also looks into and learns optimal ability usage, I find it personally refreshing that FFXIV's got a somewhat defined rotation, albeit the job i primarily dps with is Samurai which has some choice in it's abilities pressed if you wanted to start on the flank or rear after sending a Midare mid fight pending where you'll be positioning according to mechanics so playing it doesn't exactly feel like im playing it the same every single pull of a fight itself. I'm already pressing a similar amount of buttons in my baseline rotation as i would be in WoW to feel content enough in the actions used.

RNG abilities in terms of resets/procs won't really work well at all with FF14s current combat jobs and would need to be build from the ground up. They'd need to firstly set-up a bunch of cooldowns on 4-5 rotational abilities, which you'd just press based on whichever has the highest potency in FF's design which would then kinda stem back to the same static rotations.

I also feel like the hyperbolic 60 action 'rotations' that people post to 'memorise' or they're trash at their job are pretty damn silly and just overcomplicate things to make them sound smarter than they are as there are much better ways to learning the FF14 Job rotations, for melee which mostly stem from, put up buffs/dots and spam your highest dps combo.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

no i dont like unnecessary proc based gameplay ham-fisted in to rotations that dont call for them....
especially from dev teams that show they are incapable of balancing the non prc based game play we already have..

wow has 39 specs all with 60+ talents to juggle in each spec, they are the standard of combat for this genera of game. ffxiv is not capable of that amount of dev time on a single class let alone all 19 specs... wow has changed and re-balanced their classes more in the current xpac than square has ever, and as a result every spec in the game is within 5% of each other. go ahead and tell me with a straight face that square can achieve that.

but know its because i'm CE, definitely not that i have thought out the negative implications of the request made from the heart and not the brain.

now excuse me, my RDM friend has crawled on my desk to cry that they have to swap to BLM if they want an invite..

also off topic: do you just keep dirty socks on your desk by your keyboard.. thats kinda gross..

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I mean i'd sacrifice balance for them to take risks with jobs, i don't need to trust them to maintain balance and fun, but if i had to choose it'd be fun every single time.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I mean i'd sacrifice balance for them to take risks with jobs, i don't need to trust them to maintain balance and fun, but if i had to choose it'd be fun every single time.

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this fun you speak of, is it why so many people flooded to bard this xpac? oh wait...
RNG is not fun.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Almost like we already have something like that, that doesn't even effect Gameplay... whats it called... oh yeah critical hit and direct hit why is crit/dh fine but small gameplay RNG (that's actually fun) not?

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When you crit you feel good.

When you spam F1 and don't get a single firestarter proc you feel bad.

RNG need to be an extra/bonus not a detriment.

Proc-based gameplay just works better in WoW due to how much higher the average APM is, which makes it more likely for things to balance out over time.

That same logic is why DH/crit RNG on one to two minute cooldowns in XIV is awful.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

this fun you speak of, is it why so many people flooded to bard this xpac? oh wait...
RNG is not fun.

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BRD used to be one of the most popular jobs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

BRD used to be one of the most popular jobs.

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Yeah I dropped BRD after the procs were removed.

BRD used to be popular for a few reasons, mostly how well it synergised with DRG with both it's buffs and piercing vuln that it could apply, but more importantly, it was one of the only ways to get mp back for long time. Without a BRD you would just run out of MP. As it is in EW, BRD is still a RNG based job. At 90, your songs have an 80% chance of granting Repertoire, your Bites/Jaw have a 35% chance of proc'ing Refulgent Arrow. It still has aspects of it that are RNG.

I like the idea of RNG based jobs, but while they are nice when they work, if you need something to happen and it doesn't, it's just the worst feeling ever. It's like when you play DNC and just don't get any feathers, or MNK and don't get chakras, it feels like something is missing. However, if the job is designed around having a complete feeling while not getting procs, then it runs the risk of being too busy when they do happen. Another counter arguement is that proc based jobs are not skill based. They are inherently RNG, so the maximum potential of the job would heavily depend on something that can't be controlled. People who want a complex job may find that the skill ceiling is too limited, or is too inconsistent, by something that they cannot control.

Thinking back to AST, if you got AoE Balance, that was a massive dps increase, but if you didn't get it, most of your other options just sucked. But when it worked....

That being said, I do believe that having an amount of randomness can be fun, and should be incorporated in some jobs. The dopamine from when you get a proc is always a nice little thing. Like getting a Direct-Crit. It's just the amount of power that is being placed in those RNG systems have to be very carefully monitored.

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

BRD used to be popular for a few reasons, mostly how well it synergised with DRG with both it's buffs and piercing vuln that it could apply, but more importantly, it was one of the only ways to get mp back for long time. Without a BRD you would just run out of MP. As it is in EW, BRD is still a RNG based job. At 90, your songs have an 80% chance of granting Repertoire, your Bites/Jaw have a 35% chance of proc'ing Refulgent Arrow. It still has aspects of it that are RNG.

I like the idea of RNG based jobs, but while they are nice when they work, if you need something to happen and it doesn't, it's just the worst feeling ever. It's like when you play DNC and just don't get any feathers, or MNK and don't get chakras, it feels like something is missing. However, if the job is designed around having a complete feeling while not getting procs, then it runs the risk of being too busy when they do happen. Another counter arguement is that proc based jobs are not skill based. They are inherently RNG, so the maximum potential of the job would heavily depend on something that can't be controlled. People who want a complex job may find that the skill ceiling is too limited, or is too inconsistent, by something that they cannot control.

Thinking back to AST, if you got AoE Balance, that was a massive dps increase, but if you didn't get it, most of your other options just sucked. But when it worked....

That being said, I do believe that having an amount of randomness can be fun, and should be incorporated in some jobs. The dopamine from when you get a proc is always a nice little thing. Like getting a Direct-Crit. It's just the amount of power that is being placed in those RNG systems have to be very carefully monitored.

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It was also for quite a while literally one of the best jobs in the game. It had free movement, was super easy (mostly heavy shot spam and keeping buffs/dots up/responding to procs), and one of the only jobs that had a silence. Add on everything you said about Piercing synergy and mana/tp song. It's really easy to see how Bard was super popular, and it had very little to do with it having procs and more to do with synergy and ease of use.

Bard being so strong while also being easy to play is what led to its nerf in ARR. As well as the cast times onto P-ranged in 3.x to try to balance the role having the ability to freely do mechanics while also bringing super consistent damage. In truth a lot of people probably left Bard due to wanderers minuet (because the community outcry was insane back then) and stayed gone either because they quit or because other jobs came out that they were more interested in. By the time we had a bigger population join in Shadowbringers we had many more jobs in the role and overall for people to choose from, so it makes sense it wouldn't have been able to stay the most popular just from a logical standpoint.

That's not to say procs can't be fun mind you or draw in players. Just that Bard was popular for a lot of reasons beyond stuff like bloodletter.

rng is bad design, no thanks

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

BRD used to be popular for a few reasons, mostly how well it synergised with DRG with both it's buffs and piercing vuln that it could apply, but more importantly, it was one of the only ways to get mp back for long time. Without a BRD you would just run out of MP. As it is in EW, BRD is still a RNG based job. At 90, your songs have an 80% chance of granting Repertoire, your Bites/Jaw have a 35% chance of proc'ing Refulgent Arrow. It still has aspects of it that are RNG.

I like the idea of RNG based jobs, but while they are nice when they work, if you need something to happen and it doesn't, it's just the worst feeling ever. It's like when you play DNC and just don't get any feathers, or MNK and don't get chakras, it feels like something is missing. However, if the job is designed around having a complete feeling while not getting procs, then it runs the risk of being too busy when they do happen. Another counter arguement is that proc based jobs are not skill based. They are inherently RNG, so the maximum potential of the job would heavily depend on something that can't be controlled. People who want a complex job may find that the skill ceiling is too limited, or is too inconsistent, by something that they cannot control.

Thinking back to AST, if you got AoE Balance, that was a massive dps increase, but if you didn't get it, most of your other options just sucked. But when it worked....

That being said, I do believe that having an amount of randomness can be fun, and should be incorporated in some jobs. The dopamine from when you get a proc is always a nice little thing. Like getting a Direct-Crit. It's just the amount of power that is being placed in those RNG systems have to be very carefully monitored.

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BRD was also very popular in non optimized casual/storymode environments.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

this fun you speak of, is it why so many people flooded to bard this xpac? oh wait...
RNG is not fun.

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Bard is not played because of issues that are not related to its proc gameplay.
A major one which is fixed in DT, that you can't use songs during downtime which destroys your cooldown timings

I'm going to miss being able to multi-DoT enemies during wall to wall pulls to fish for more song procs, because the procs now being tied to the song ticking down now means you have a hard cap on how many you can get per song while keeping it RNG for whatever reason.

When you start getting into extremely high trigger rates like 80% it makes me question why they don't just axe the RNG entirely at that point.

Repertoire would feel utterly boring and mind numbing without rng, especially minuet. This would dramatically drop the skill ceiling of that song in particular.

It makes no sense to me that they create rng/proc based jobs, only to then delete all rng/proc elements from said jobs, without every having a replacement for people who liked the initial playstyle.

Which frankly seems to be just how things go in FFXIV. A playstyle is created, someone complains, devs go absolutely crazy removing all traces of said playstyle, then never attempt to put it back together properly. I mean, look at Summoner going from a DoT class to a ‘big hitter’ class. Like I enjoy the current Summoner (yes obviously I’m aware it has many, many, many issues) but I can’t fathom why they wouldn’t then take the pre-existing playstyle and apply it to a job that was more thematically/mechanically designed for DoT style gameplay.

Arguably Ranged DPS between Stormblood and Shadowbringers is another one; they went from being slightly supportive dps to copy-paste clones with the exact same raid buffs as literally every job in the game. If you liked supporting the party? ‘Fuck those guys’ seems to be SE’s response