Did tanks really need more healing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Healers are already non-optimal for almost all dungeon content outside of the few boses that can rack up raidwide damage that outpaces NF/Intervention.
I also have a strong hunch that with the Shadow Wall Excog, Rampart Heal Buff and a longer Reprisal that even DRK and 3 dps will be possible and faster than a healer in the comp

---

If the damage output isnt increased it could be possible we will see the new Ultimate raids both having no Healer runs like TOP.
I kinda hope that happens because then the "if you want a challenge play ultimate" quote will become even funnier.

Ultimately everything about the 120s upgrades is extremely filler and doesn't actually change how you use it so y'know. I do agree that DRK excog is probably the most elegant solution out of the bunch though.

My healers really appreciated me being able to Holy Sheltron a DPS, which I think is really neat skill expression and part of the fantasy of being a Paladin and I wouldn't want to lose it. But I don't think my healing should be so strong I don't need a healer when I'm being attack by 12 mobs at once.

Not a fan of the bald man himself but he uploaded a video of him doing a no-healer run of the dawntrail dungeon with 3 dps and WAR.
So if you were praying things would somehow be different, lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Not a fan of the bald man himself but he uploaded a video of him doing a no-healer run of the dawntrail dungeon with 3 dps and WAR.
So if you were praying things would somehow be different, lmao

---

You're my favourite Au'ra you got the same hater energy as a Lala raider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Not a fan of the bald man himself but he uploaded a video of him doing a no-healer run of the dawntrail dungeon with 3 dps and WAR.
So if you were praying things would somehow be different, lmao

---

In a perfect world maybe this would make CBU3 question if buffing tanks even more really was such a good idea, if this happens even before release right in front of them.
We don't live in a perfect world though, so I don't have high hopes, but well, hope dies last or something...?

Tanks should be sturdy enough so a Healer doesn't have to only heal-spam them, and have time for a little dps and to help others as needed. Also a tank should be able to stay alive long enough for a healer to be rezzed if needed.

I hope we aren't looking at 2 more years of Tanks staying live on their own in boss fights for 15+ minutes. It's really bad design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I hope we aren't looking at 2 more years of Tanks staying live on their own in boss fights for 15+ minutes. It's really bad design.

---

Tanks will basically be even more immortal in Dawntrail, don't need a psychic to predict that. But the worse part of it is though, dps party sustain has also been increased...so it's probable we will see even more healerless clears and they might even be consistent.

Did we need more healing? Bloodwhetting is super over powered. There I said it. Do I love it? Yes.
They could give us something like bloodbath back. It could combo with vengeance and heal 20% for every attack/counter attack. I don't know why they took it away. Warrior is the blood tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

Yes, give me more tools to assist my healers.

The problem isn't that tank gets more tools, it's the healer design that's lacking.

---

What good is focusing on healing design if the healing requirements is so low in the game. So badly that tanks have a lot of sustained healing and there is no need for us to really do anything? Look you want to give tanks healing, im all for it. Tanks in WoW had a lot of healing. But the incoming damage was much, much higher than what we see in FFXIV especially in dungeons.

To anyone that hasn't heard yet, DT's media tour dungeon was clearable without a Healer. It was done with Xeno's WAR.
https://youtu.be/VqBWp00XNZs?si=gyBDtNix6TxxXKn7

Can we get some nerfs to tank sustain please? Don't invalidate the Healer role in all but the high level content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by currentlemon

To anyone that hasn't heard yet, DT's media tour dungeon was clearable without a Healer. It was done with Xeno's WAR.
https://youtu.be/VqBWp00XNZs?si=gyBDtNix6TxxXKn7

Can we get some nerfs to tank sustain please? Don't invalidate the Healer role in all but the high level content.

---

Looks fairly easy to clear on other tanks aswell.

I don't think it's 100% sustain (for warrior it sure is, they need HEAVY sustain nerfs imo) But mitigation values and sustain being so high together causes tanks to be just absurd, I think base line defensive value needs to be hard nerfed a lot too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by currentlemon

To anyone that hasn't heard yet, DT's media tour dungeon was clearable without a Healer. It was done with Xeno's WAR.
https://youtu.be/VqBWp00XNZs?si=gyBDtNix6TxxXKn7

Can we get some nerfs to tank sustain please? Don't invalidate the Healer role in all but the high level content.

---

It's impressive that, in a DPS, Healer, Tank system, they've manage to completely invalidate an entire roles existence multiple times, if it wasn't so absurd. Honestly, I'd be embarrassed at this point, this is ridiculous and should fundamentally not happen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

Looks fairly easy to clear on other tanks aswell.

I don't think it's 100% sustain (for warrior it sure is, they need HEAVY sustain nerfs imo) But mitigation values and sustain being so high together causes tanks to be just absurd, I think base line defensive value needs to be hard nerfed a lot too.

---

You can clear 3DPS Dark Knight in dungeons now, the issue comes more from the fact DRK has no ally heal tools and thus any boss that casts a lot of raid wide damage will widdle down the dps, so you'll need to cover that with like a RDM or something.

It be pretty easy to limit this power just by focusing nerfs onto Nascent flash, Intervention Veil and Shake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuel81

What good is focusing on healing design if the healing requirements is so low in the game. So badly that tanks have a lot of sustained healing and there is no need for us to really do anything? Look you want to give tanks healing, im all for it. Tanks in WoW had a lot of healing. But the incoming damage was much, much higher than what we see in FFXIV especially in dungeons.

---

But then the problem doesn't comes from the tanks and the question can be asked to the healer role as well.
What's the point of focusing on healers healing if the healing requirements is low?

The problem is not limited to dungeons but raid 24 and extreme. Seriously, raid 24 as Sage has been Dosis, Kerachole and res/Ixochole people who takes avoidable aoes.
XIV's casual content design is too casual, even if tanks or DPS had no healing the problem would remain the same.

It's not the sustain that needs a nerf, it's the incoming damages that needs a buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emitans

My healers really appreciated me being able to Holy Sheltron a DPS, which I think is really neat skill expression and part of the fantasy of being a Paladin and I wouldn't want to lose it. But I don't think my healing should be so strong I don't need a healer when I'm being attack by 12 mobs at once.

---

Imo all the tank signature cooldowns should have been on a power level at best close to TBN on themselves (remember when DRK was the best defensive tank due to TBN when other tanks didn't have things like that yet?), and get the actual overpowered heals and other effects when used on party members, but either way this would require encounters to have actual threatening prey mechanics back that could be blocked by things like TBN (way bigger shield on allies than self for example) or Cover/Sheltron. Tanks don't need those effects, but allies could need it with proper encounters to back it up, and make tanks feel like actual protectors of the party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

You can clear 3DPS Dark Knight in dungeons now, the issue comes more from the fact DRK has no ally heal tools and thus any boss that casts a lot of raid wide damage will widdle down the dps, so you'll need to cover that with like a RDM or something.

It be pretty easy to limit this power just by focusing nerfs onto Nascent flash, Intervention Veil and Shake.

---

I like ally heals on tanks.

I also don't think what you said was very accurate to the reality of things, I've had many instances where a solo Dark Knight and 2 dps (because a new healer gets wiped early), they're able to sustain themselves through it pretty well, aslong as you're playing a melee generally you have a lot of tools that you can personally use to keep yourself alive,, ranged/caster usually bring pretty good sustain tools in their own right, but DRK Can actually heavily contribute to your ally surviving through good TBN useage.

DRK's can still TBN a target which would save 25% of a targets HP same with Mitigation, Mitigation helps with party survivability on tanks as much as target healing, I think the reason why people get more upset over the fact that tanks can heal is because "that's what healers do!" despite healers having strong mitigations. (Design shouldn't be as basic as healer heal, tank mitigation and dps do damage though)

Target tank healing is Balanceable, I think the issue we come into is that right now in dungeons the incoming damage is way too low, even with lets say a DRK/Healer/2xDps, I feel like I'm barely even needing to heal on a healer, I can just throw out one cooldown once in a while if everyone isn't soaking vuns. I do think you have cases like Warrior where nascent flash healing is way way to much being a 1600 potency for you and your target, while also healing you shake it off also being stacked war being able to heal per enemy. I think PLD Does party healing in a more healthy way, the main issue i find with PLD is magic attack healing feels unengaging and just apart of your rotation, But other then that Holysheltron/intervention and divine veil I see is something that can be balanced around better fight design's that utilise more incoming AOE damage.

Well I mean DPS with sustain tools do exist, and they seem to be being buffed into DT so I honestly dont know at this point

On the discussion of Tank support actions:

Having the odd tool to support someone else as a tank isn't a problem but I think healing should be rarer while the support is aligned to the tanks main gimmick of defending. Clemency on Paladin is the most balanced heal I think we can possibly get on a tank (mechanically wise at least) as you are sacrificing damage to heal someone else as well as MP. I think for the short oGCDs it should mostly be barriers and short defensive buffs. Something thats more in line with the fantasy of quickly defending a party member instead of healing them.
As for the long CD support moves I think healing can be invovled. For example, with Paladin I would take the healing effect off of Divine Veil and buff the barrier to 15% of hp and instead have Passage of Arms add a regen to anyone who takes damage under the effect of it (Like Clemency you are sacrificing damage and even movement.) I think healing should still primarily be the job of the healers but I don't think Tanks should only have selfish buffs (unless its part of a job identity and has something like higher dps to compensate.)

Best part is when you get a rando tank who DOESN'T use their plethora of healing abilities so you can actually feel useful for once as a healer. /s

Well only mild /s. All you need to do is go into any x1 leveling dungeon (Holminster and Zot in particular) and you'll see the adventures you can have.

Game should remove every healing skills from tank other than 1 2 3 combo...

Healers is just getting useless and useless because the losing identity of tanks..

My idea is focusing on the root.. paladin should have high a very high defence.. warrior have max hp raised + reasonable lifeateal.. gunbreaker parry + regen.. dark shield and mitigation

But no.. now they all have abilities that put healers to dust

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

Game should remove every healing skills from tank other than 1 2 3 combo...
Healers is just getting useless and useless because the losing identity of tanks..

---

Here's a tough pill to swallow:
Removing things from the tanks won't magically makes the healers fun.

You'll end up with 2 boring roles instead.

It could. We have yet to see the game play system when tank have no self heal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

It could. We have yet to see the game play system when tank have no self heal

---

PLD had no self sustain before EW (excluding clemency), healers were still mad about removal of Cleric Stance and spamming 1.
DRK had the ability to spam Abyssal Drain/Dodge ennemy attacks and no healer complained. Today it has less sustain than before and people complains.
GNB only had Aurora and got corundum in EW. It's not a huge change healing wise.
WAR always had a great sustain, the complains started with EW where WAR got access to Bloodwhetting.

We've seen expansions where jobs had little to not self sustain and we still can observe it today.
The real difference is the damage received in dungeon and the healer gameplay who both went downward.

People don't main or platy gnb because it have aurora and no one going to stop play it if it is gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

PLD had no self sustain before EW (excluding clemency), healers were still mad about removal of Cleric Stance and spamming 1.
DRK had the ability to spam Abyssal Drain/Dodge ennemy attacks and no healer complained. Today it has less sustain than before and people complains.
GNB only had Aurora and got corundum in EW. It's not a huge change healing wise.
WAR always had a great sustain, the complains started with EW where WAR got access to Bloodwhetting.

We've seen expansions where jobs had little to not self sustain and we still can observe it today.
The real difference is the damage received in dungeon and the healer gameplay who both went downward.

---

Everyone I have seen talking about tank sustain has said that DRK is in the perfect spot and other tanks should match it, so I'm not sure what you're on about. A skilled DRK will take absolutely minimal damage, they just won't survive indefinitely and keep the entire party healed up like Warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

Game should remove every healing skills from tank other than 1 2 3 combo...

Healers is just getting useless and useless because the losing identity of tanks..

My idea is focusing on the root.. paladin should have high a very high defence.. warrior have max hp raised + reasonable lifeateal.. gunbreaker parry + regen.. dark shield and mitigation

But no.. now they all have abilities that put healers to dust

---

This is a bad take.

Sustain isn't bad I feel as this point is being over exaggerated at this point because right now it's got too high, Theirs instances where sustain is too high Warrior is a example of that, paladin to a extent can be toned down.

But removing sustain from tanks to make healers "better" is not the right solution it will not actually make healer more fun, it will just make tank more boring.

If anything defensive value needs to be lowered more then actual sustain, such as the tank passive being lowered so cycling your strong mit's and having sustain would make it so you needed to be healed more but you also having more impact on yourself because cycling CD's would be very important.

To tank doesn't mean to self heal. So having no heal doesn't make tank boring. If anything it is have a bunch of heal/mitigate button that only fire and forget

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

To tank doesn't mean to self heal. So having no heal doesn't make tank boring. If anything it is have a bunch of heal/mitigate button that only fire and forget

---

Healer doesn't mean to dps so having no dps doesn't make healer boring.
Can we not make baseline arguments of "[This] job isn't a [Insert Role] so it shouldn't do [Somethings outside it's role]"

Healing on tanks has been fine its only recently got out of hand with endwalker, but that's also stacked with Mitigation effects. it's common for tanks to have healing or other supportive effects such as barriers, in a lot of games, tanks afterall are still support roles and not DPS.

It's the combination of the strength of both, removing sustain doesn't just automatically fix tanks, nor does removing all mitigation ect. How about we talk about tuning down these numbers instead of exaggerating and only focusing in on one problem? Ideally wouldn't we want tanks to have some form of good mitigation and sustain that doesn't make it a replacement for healers, which can be done if you fairly and very reasonably tune the numbers.

I feel like my point here is more then reasonable but the idea that a tank can have a heal suddenly makes people angry for some reason, I get that "haha funny axe tank can heal, now healers are useless so lets remove all that" but removing sustain shouldn't be the goal here, it should be tuning it down some jobs more heavy then other (again warrior does seriously need to be looked at here), But at some point

Healer don't really need to do more dps and it isn't their most biggest problem. Unlike some tank. Healer didn't ask to be turned to a green dps. They just want the HEALING to be more interesting and that tank self heal is in the way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

Healer don't really need to do more dps and it isn't their most biggest problem. Unlike some tank. Healer didn't ask to be turned to a green dps. They just want the HEALING to be more interesting and that tank self heal is in the way.

---

And I want some healing/utility on tanks, keeps them interesting, Tanks are also supports not just blue DPS.

healers can have healing that is meaningful and tanks can have sustain that is meaningful, The issue isn't just sustain, its the level of Mitigation combined with sustain, coupled with the lack of healing, it feels like you really want to pin this as a one note issue when it's a lot more then just "oh tank self heal i have no job, so lets remove self heal from tank"

I don't know how much more i can go over the same point that sustain is fine when actually balanced and accounted for in that content.

Is it the support that healers asked for? According to their reply in the first page I highly doubt it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

Setting aside the terrible DPS kits for all the tanks, why have the 2 minutes defense buffs all get an extra upgrade outside of defense buff?
Did warrior really need another way to regen with its 30 cd benediction in dungeons wouldn't upgrading the counter attack damage make far more sense. I think only Dark Knight needed a self sustain upgrade if they felt like it.
This along with some DPS getting 500 Potency AOE heals seems like its erasing healers role and removing any form of challenge from Tanking.
Unless Dawntrail completely changes how much damage tanks and the party recieves and make it 2000s MMO level of damage these upgrade just seem to make all the support roles seem even more mindless.

---

Why not? healers are just taking a role of potion or bloodwhetting. they have to redesign healers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

Is it the support that healers asked for? According to their reply in the first page I highly doubt it.

---

I meant tanks are by definition a support role, they generally focus on taking hits through mitigating, self healing ect. But it's also common that tanks will also provide party support aswell which can include target healing, it makes sense for a Paladin to have some form of target healing. That and "tanking" is just a stance you press once and forget about so I would prefer tanks to keep their support abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

Why not? healers are just taking a role of potion or bloodwhetting. they have to redesign healers

---

The key word is heal.

Healers should be the best at doing that, DPS and Tanks with access to heals should NOT be able to full heal. Even with clemency on PLD I think its potency is too high I think it should only be 1000 on DPS/HEALER and not on Tanks.
I don't mind tanks having access to regens and barriers, pure heals are something im against but thats personal opinion. Being able to sustain themselves longer than any other role can in its job at tanking but I think the face they can constatly full heal looking at PLD and WAR paticularly. Shake it off shouldn't have a regen, Divine Veil shouldn't pure heal, PoA having a regen after you're hit would be ok in my opinion though. Healers don't need to be redesigned they should just be given their job back, nerf the healing of DPS and Tanks to heal at most 50% of their HP and their AoE heals ideally being mostly in regens instead of straight up heals and the problem will be solved. Also readding powerful boss dots and debuffs on that can only be esuna'd would also help mitigate the destruction of healer's role.

I also think it destroys tanks identities, since every single tank becomes a regen tank you can't have anything unique like HW/SB DRK. Everything has to become versions of WAR, self sustain can be done in so many different ways instead of healing. Lifestealing WAR is the most unique identity we have right now, GNB could constantly place barriers for example to protect itself. Do we really consider healing to be the only way to self-sustain as a tank in mmos?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

The key word is heal.

Healers should be the best at doing that, DPS and Tanks with access to heals should NOT be able to full heal. Even with clemency on PLD I think its potency is too high I think it should only be 1000 on DPS/HEALER and not on Tanks.
I don't mind tanks having access to regens and barriers, pure heals are something im against but thats personal opinion. Being able to sustain themselves longer than any other role can in its job at tanking but I think the face they can constatly full heal looking at PLD and WAR paticularly. Shake it off shouldn't have a regen, Divine Veil shouldn't pure heal, PoA having a regen after you're hit would be ok in my opinion though. Healers don't need to be redesigned they should just be given their job back, nerf the healing of DPS and Tanks to heal at most 50% of their HP and their AoE heals ideally being mostly in regens instead of straight up heals and the problem will be solved. Also readding powerful boss dots and debuffs on that can only be esuna'd would also help mitigate the destruction of healer's role.

I also think it destroys tanks identities, since every single tank becomes a regen tank you can't have anything unique like HW/SB DRK. Everything has to become versions of WAR, self sustain can be done in so many different ways instead of healing. Lifestealing WAR is the most unique identity we have right now, GNB could constantly place barriers for example to protect itself. Do we really consider healing to be the only way to self-sustain as a tank in mmos?

---

Clemencies potency is 1000 but it's weaker then Cure 2 due to Tanks and most dps not having the maim and mend passive. Clemency of all skills is like the most balanced way of sustain you lose damage for it, it's high MP It's really fine as it is.

DV healing Isn't really a massive issue, I personally don't really think POA needs changing either, I think veil fits a "paladin", while Shake feels really odd on a "warrior" and being outright stronger then paladin's, GNB/DRK should have theirs work on physical too.

The tanks having healing is a small part of the issue, Paladins self sustain wouldn't nearly be as effective as warrior's in AOE if tanks didn't already have absurd mitigation values, Granted I think we can remove Paladins self healing from magic attacks and ever so slightly buff holy sheltrons regen by making it last 18s or something.

Theirs a case by case situation where somethings like "job identity" has to be considered, a flat "lets remove all healing from jobs" is silly, Warrior is a example of where healing other players doesn't even really fit the job in the first place, it should keep its self sustain (although i think it needs to be nerfed a bit at this point), But a job like Paladin or dancer having a small AOE healing effect isn't going to be the end of the world. Self sustain doesn't need to be the main way jobs function, I don't even think most tanks Need target/group healing but it's nice when it suits the job aslong as it doesn't go too out of hand.

I know this is a peak high of the movement's fervor, but you are not going to make the game better by removing these abilities to help each other. I remember even seeing people advocating taking away the party mits from tanks.
I think it is good that tanks have some measure of agency in their own survival. I think it is good that tanks can help in the group healing if there are moments that feel especially intense.

Is it? One day some tank are gonna ask for more heal, stronger heal and the other are gonna follow. This point we have reach is foreshadow since shadowbringer. Even tho they change all heal to be like clemency one day someone will cry for it to change and little by little history will repeat.

Personally I’d say it’s the encounter design that’s the problem and not the fact tanks have so much mitigation.

I mean, in an action-based game there’s only so many ways you can represent ‘defending your allies from harm’. The devs have tried to do this by giving tanks tons of mitigation and support healing abilities, which makes sense from a design perspective since it gives them a variety of ways to ‘defend their teammates’.

It’s when that design is put into practice that it falls apart sadly (which frankly is a common theme in ffxiv; decent design ideas that fall apart in practice). Damage output from most content is way too low to justify having so much of these abilities, and that’s exacerbated by how massively powerful every healer is now.

I feel like nothing will ever solve the issue with tanks (or healers) unless encounter design changes, but that also has its own controversies. Like how making damage proportionate to the amount of healing/mitigation skills we currently have would make general content simply unplayable for the general player because of the difficulty level. Maybe.

It isn't just encounter design, it is also a tank's kit. Currently, tank's defensive kits are quite uniform, it is their self sustain that is miles different. Going to the extremes, Dark Knight and Warrior, they have such different self healing profiles (with DRK being almost non existent) that it creates an issue. If the healing profiles were to be made more uniform, you could then change the incoming damage to reflect this change.