Please reconsider 7.0 BLM changes

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Originally Posted by Eksu

Please see this Famitsu article from the media tour: https://www.famitsu.com/news/202110/13236998.html

In the section about Paradox, it specifically says that they extended the duration of procs so you can use them to "Trance" (transpose) and return with Fire Proc. They are definitely aware people do this.

I'm just disappointed in how they are approaching this. The best of both worlds is to just make any GCD in UI give you mana. Hopefully something like that ends up shipping on the release build.

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I see, thank you for the clarification Eksu. It feels especially disheartening when such prominent voices as yours are still being flagrantly disregarded.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

??
its not about what i want or not want to do, its about 'the reason of the gutting is to make it fair and balanced for all the jobs in terms of depth/options'.
if other jobs did have such options and then get gutted, then why can BLM stay not gutted? thats unfair, and thats the answer you need to accept.
BLM being 'the one remaining job' is exactly the reason it is special at the moment, thus it needs to be gutted and put in line alongside all the other jobs.

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BLM does not significantly outperform other jobs in this game (barring RDM and SMN generally being undertuned this expansion which is an entirely separate topic).

And still this stance is bizarre to me?? We can just ask them to make jobs interesting and deep again, instead of shooting down anything to the contrary and saying "well I guess that's just how it is now". Your position makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Cyth_

BLM does not significantly outperform other jobs in this game (barring RDM and SMN generally being undertuned this expansion which is an entirely separate topic).

And still this stance is bizarre to me?? We can just ask them to make jobs interesting and deep again, instead of shooting down anything to the contrary and saying "well I guess that's just how it is now". Your position makes no sense.

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???
I'm not talking about 'performance' whatsoever. I said 'fair & balanced in terms of depth/options', not 'in terms of performance/dps output'
I've given a focused and straight to the point answers and yet you keep bringing things that's not exactly relevant to my point.
Maybe youre too much in denial to not be able to think straight? so you cant understand my makes perfect sense position?
or do you just want to debate? and making a poor attempt at it by bringing irrelevant points to prolong the debate?
ok I'll entertain you one last time:
now lets say, after BLM gets gutted, suddenly one of the other jobs get a change that makes it possible for them to do nonstandard play. how would you feel about it?

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

???
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I love this mindset.
"Well, since every other class than class A can only have pizza for lunch, now class A is also only allowed to get pizza, even though they preferred chicken nuggets every now and then. We just serve pizza now."
If another job suddenly gets the depth BLM has now, unless I'm really put off by the aesthetics of the class (like NIN or SAM, which I just dislike in general), I'll play it.

People really show how recently they started playing. In HW, one of the jobs with most depth and complexity was SCH. In fact, I still think HW SCH, with Cleric dancing, with the old fairy buffs (the haste, the magic defense boost and all that), with supervirus, with the xclass dots that weren't naturally aligned, with the MP-hungry Miasma II for weaving, with the old Energy Drain VS Lustrate (and I'm not even going into the % Lustrate made to be used in Cleric, since that got removed way faster) was one of the best jobs in XIV history. When all of that got slashed in SB, I moved to BLM and SMN. I progged every Ultimate and Savage fight in ShB on SMN too, I liked the second iteration with the ogcd egi assaults (the instant gcd egi assaults were ok too, tho). Then they annihilated that SMN, and all that was left was BLM.
People just assume players haven't been hoping between jobs as more and more get sacrificed to the altar of "balance", which is achieving nothing at all in terms of gameplay feel or encounter quality.

So yea, I'd change jobs for the 4th time if what you're describing happens.
(My wife had a similar trajectory, starting with DRK in HW, then WAR in SB, then PLD in ShB and now GNB)
Ofc, at this rate, the game will never have any depth of gameplay ever again. SCH, DRK, SMN, WAR, and now BLM- I'm sure there are more examples, but I didn't reach an acceptable level of mastery in those jobs. We, as a playerbase, need to defend the few jobs with depth left, otherwise, in a few years, in a XIV post complete-homogenization, no one will even remember how much this game's gameplay has lost. To this day, I still want any version of HW, SB or ShB SMN and HW SCH back. I'd really love to play those jobs again. But I guess I should just accept they're taking my last toy away, get bored in 2 months with DT and uninstall the game :>

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

So yea, I'd change jobs for the 4th time if what you're describing happens.
(My wife had a similar trajectory, starting with DRK in HW, then WAR in SB, then PLD in ShB and now GNB)

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Now so you believe this is the right stance? if it is the right stance, then, doesnt it mean ppl ideally would change job towards the job that has the most depths? right?
so in turns, in ideal scenario, it would make a lot of ppl change job to BLM. just like you and your wife. and thus the player-job distribution tips toward BLM, because it has that one special thing that every other jobs dont have. and thats exactly the problem. having something special on one job, makes that job treated differently by the player base. your answer simply proves my point about the importance of 'fairness' and 'balance' between the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

Now so you believe this is the right stance? if it is the right stance, then, doesnt it mean ppl ideally would change job towards the job that has the most depths? right?
so in turns, in ideal scenario, it would make a lot of ppl change job to BLM. just like you and your wife. and thus the player-job distribution tips toward BLM, because it has that one special thing that every other jobs dont have. and thats exactly the problem. having something special on one job, makes that job treated differently by the player base. your answer simply proves my point about the importance of 'fairness' and 'balance' between the jobs.

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I have no idea what you're even talking about. My stance is that jobs should have varied depth of gameplay. Ideally all- I'm content with some being simpler and more accessible (one per role, for example, like WHM/RDM or SMN/DNC/WAR can be the "simple, intro jobs"). Also, the fact I'd hop (very begrudgingly, I'd add) to another job is completely irrelevant to this problem, it's just a symptom of the sickness that's modern job design.
What you're saying about people chasing the jobs with the most depth is also untrue. BLM is one of the least played jobs in the game. The only time there was any significant migration to it was ARR (when SMN was really bad due to long ramp up and downtime in Coils and some HM primals too). In fact, it still is, in EW. If you check on a certain spreadsheet site the clear rates per job, BLM is one of the lowest, down there with BRD and MNK as one of the three least played jobs for Anabaseios.
By far and large, the playerbase prefers simple, easier jobs. Which is aggravating, because those people already have over half of the jobs being brutally simplified every expac, and people that want more intricate, hard-to-master, fluid gameplay get less and less with time. It's like it's a crime that I enjoy complicated jobs with a kit that can be adapted to different situations.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

???
I'm not talking about 'performance' whatsoever. I said 'fair & balanced in terms of depth/options', not 'in terms of performance/dps output'
I've given a focused and straight to the point answers and yet you keep bringing things that's not exactly relevant to my point.
Maybe youre too much in denial to not be able to think straight? so you cant understand my makes perfect sense position?
or do you just want to debate? and making a poor attempt at it by bringing irrelevant points to prolong the debate?
ok I'll entertain you one last time:
now lets say, after BLM gets gutted, suddenly one of the other jobs get a change that makes it possible for them to do nonstandard play. how would you feel about it?

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I would feel good if more jobs got more rotational depth and flexibility actually! I would sincerely hope that BLM doesn't have to be sacrificed for this to happen, but what have I said at any point in this thread that would make you think I would be against that? I am also very unhappy with the Monk and Samurai changes that reduce depth and flexibility.

Why is it a bad thing for some jobs to have more depth and a different difficulty delta than others? SE have stated themselves that they desire this, such as when they have stated Sage is intended to be an "expert" healer, or Viper is supposed to be for experienced players (I forget their exact wording but I was there at fanfest when they revealed it!)

It's not unfair if I am playing SMN and someone else is playing a different job and they perform better because they invested in the opportunities the job has for optimisation. I chose this experience by choosing a job that does not have much room for decision-making. Having jobs to fit varying skill levels, playstyles and depths is a good thing, and it really boggles my mind how anyone can suggest otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

Now so you believe this is the right stance? if it is the right stance, then, doesnt it mean ppl ideally would change job towards the job that has the most depths? right?
so in turns, in ideal scenario, it would make a lot of ppl change job to BLM. just like you and your wife. and thus the player-job distribution tips toward BLM, because it has that one special thing that every other jobs dont have. and thats exactly the problem. having something special on one job, makes that job treated differently by the player base. your answer simply proves my point about the importance of 'fairness' and 'balance' between the jobs.

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I'm sorry but this is just absurd and such an obvious misunderstanding of Galvuu's point. The issue is not people switching to BLM, that is simply a symptom of the actual issue - homogenisation. I really do not understand how we can be clearer about this, we want them to walk back the changes that have stripped so many jobs of their depth. Yes, BLM should not be an outlier but it is for the complete opposite reason to what you are suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I have no idea what you're even talking about. My stance is that jobs should have varied depth of gameplay. Ideally all- I'm content with some being simpler and more accessible (one per role, for example, like WHM/RDM or SMN/DNC/WAR can be the "simple, intro jobs"). Also, the fact I'd hop (very begrudgingly, I'd add) to another job is completely irrelevant to this problem, it's just a symptom of the sickness that's modern job design.
What you're saying about people chasing the jobs with the most depth is also untrue. BLM is one of the least played jobs in the game. The only time there was any significant migration to it was ARR (when SMN was really bad due to long ramp up and downtime in Coils and some HM primals too). In fact, it still is, in EW. If you check on a certain spreadsheet site the clear rates per job, BLM is one of the lowest, down there with BRD and MNK as one of the three least played jobs for Anabaseios.
By far and large, the playerbase prefers simple, easier jobs. Which is aggravating, because those people already have over half of the jobs being brutally simplified every expac, and people that want more intricate, hard-to-master, fluid gameplay get less and less with time. It's like it's a crime that I enjoy complicated jobs with a kit that can be adapted to different situations.

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I agree completely with you, it's a really awful feeling that as time goes on the people who enjoy in the way we do are less and less welcome.

this might be my last response, as at first I only wanted to give an understanding, not engaging in debate.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I'm content with some being simpler and more accessible (one per role, for example, like WHM/RDM or SMN/DNC/WAR can be the "simple, intro jobs"). Also, the fact I'd hop (very begrudgingly, I'd add) to another job is completely irrelevant to this problem, it's just a symptom of the sickness that's modern job design.

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you want the game design to be diverse in terms of complexity is irrelevant with this thread which is specifically about BLM change.
the game has already moved away from your desired design and at this point BLM is the only one that has 'special treatment' and thus in grand scale of thing its not good and need to fall in line.
and the fact you'd hop to another job is relevant to prove the problem with BLM being the special snowflake it is now.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

"Well, since every other class than class A can only have pizza for lunch, now class A is also only allowed to get pizza, even though they preferred chicken nuggets every now and then. We just serve pizza now."

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also you're bummed by this because you're part of class A. At least now Class B-Z would definitely complain less, and stop changing class to class A due to the privilege class A has.

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Originally Posted by Cyth_

I would feel good if more jobs got more rotational depth and flexibility

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first, i said one other job. not 'more jobs'. only one other specific job, and after BLM gets gutted.
You can feel good about it but the most likely scenarios are:
1. you'll complain how that one other job gets to have nonstandard play, but not BLM.
2. you'll change job to that one specific other job just like Galvuu and Galvuu's wife.

None of it is the good outcome.
tell me you wouldn't do any of them, I dare you.

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Originally Posted by Cyth_

we want them to walk back the changes that have stripped so many jobs of their depth. Yes, BLM should not be an outlier but it is for the complete opposite reason to what you are suggesting.

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what is the title of this thread again?
'Please reconsider 7.0 BLM changes'? or 'please reconsider homogenisation thats been happening since 4.0'? at the current state of FFXIV job, exactly as you said, BLM should not be an outlier, thus I support BLM change on 7.0.

because if BLM can keep its current depth, then all the other jobs also should get the privilege to have such depth too. but as I said before, changing one job to fit with the other 18 jobs is easier than changing 18 jobs to fit that one special, privileged job.

(although if they suddenly choose the latter, then I support that too. I'm all for job balance & fairness.)

I posted about this in the BLM post in the General forums, however, I would be curious to know how Manafont could potentially be used. By looking at the job trailer, it seems to grant 3 Umbral Hearts, Paradox, refresh AF timer and restore MP. Now, with everything it seems to grant, it might be a safe bet it restores ALL of your MP to allow another AF phase without having to enter UI at all. Just curious as to whether this could potentially change anything or add anything.

This is coming from someone who plays BLM casually, so follows the standard rotation and has basically no knowledge of the non standard lines.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I posted about this in the BLM post in the General forums, however, I would be curious to know how Manafont could potentially be used. By looking at the job trailer, it seems to grant 3 Umbral Hearts, Paradox, refresh AF timer and restore MP. Now, with everything it seems to grant, it might be a safe bet it restores ALL of your MP to allow another AF phase without having to enter UI at all. Just curious as to whether this could potentially change anything or add anything.

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Funny enough, I don't think Manafont matters much. Under burst, depending on the potency of the nuke, you might just do the nuke into Xeno spam. Fire IV is usually not strong enough to be used under burst unless you have to, and the nuke takes so long to setup half the buffs will have fallen off. It just gives you a very long AF cycle. I wonder if this will cause your AF to desync from the 2 mins tho, since, assuming non-standard is gone, it will be much worse to set up a "perfect" burst window.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I posted about this in the BLM post in the General forums, however, I would be curious to know how Manafont could potentially be used. By looking at the job trailer, it seems to grant 3 Umbral Hearts, Paradox, refresh AF timer and restore MP. Now, with everything it seems to grant, it might be a safe bet it restores ALL of your MP to allow another AF phase without having to enter UI at all. Just curious as to whether this could potentially change anything or add anything.

This is coming from someone who plays BLM casually, so follows the standard rotation and has basically no knowledge of the non standard lines.

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Manafont change looks good and a lot of BLMs are excited for it. It has been a very underwhelming cooldowns until now. The long recast timer means that it won't cover a lot of the scenarios where the MP is needed to enable different lines, and will be used as a DPS tool to extend existing fire lines (probably in raid buffs)

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Funny enough, I don't think Manafont matters much. Under burst, depending on the potency of the nuke, you might just do the nuke into Xeno spam. Fire IV is usually not strong enough to be used under burst unless you have to, and the nuke takes so long to setup half the buffs will have fallen off. It just gives you a very long AF cycle. I wonder if this will cause your AF to desync from the 2 mins tho, since, assuming non-standard is gone, it will be much worse to set up a "perfect" burst window.

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also worth noting for the sake of Mikey_R that it's very fight dependant - ideally you want to dump Xenoglossy yes, but non-standard is really just shifting around resources like procs, CDs and polyglots to where you need them. So if you need to use Xenoglossy or Manafont somewhere earlier in the fight to enable a specific sequence, then that will have an impact on what you can later put into raid buffs.

The tradeoff between movement and buff contribution at specific times is a really deep topic with a huge amount of headroom to adjust based on encounter timelines and party composition :)

Ahem, I know I said I wouldnt response anymore, but I'm still very much looking forward to your reply to my previous post :>

(just in case you missed it)

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

Ahem, I know I said I wouldnt response anymore, but I'm still very much looking forward to your reply to my previous post :>

(just in case you missed it)

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I will properly respond to it when I can, mobile formatting is just tough and I want to try properly articulate everything :)

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Originally Posted by Cyth_

also worth noting for the sake of Mikey_R that it's very fight dependant - ideally you want to dump Xenoglossy yes, but non-standard is really just shifting around resources like procs, CDs and polyglots to where you need them. So if you need to use Xenoglossy or Manafont somewhere earlier in the fight to enable a specific sequence, then that will have an impact on what you can later put into raid buffs.

The tradeoff between movement and buff contribution at specific times is a really deep topic with a huge amount of headroom to adjust based on encounter timelines and party composition :)

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In most (though not all) current fights, you can set up a burst phase with 3x Xeno, TC and a Paradox or at least 2 instant cast Despairs (under Triple) and 2x Xeno.

While I cannot confirm anything, I also want to bring up that the spells being cast in the trailer seem to come out absurdly fast, even accounting for the Leylines speed buff.

As these showcases generally are in T0 gear (AF + dungeon), I highly doubt the BLM on screen has more than ~5% spellspeed. Watch how quickly the first B4 casts, and then watch the Fire4s that happen. Even under leylines, there's a notable gap in the spellcasting animations compared to how they function currently.

It is possible it is only for the trailer, but it was triggering my Blmmy sense and my concerns were added to.

One thing makes me think... If Flare adds x3 to the new Fire gauge, I wonder if there's gonna be some kind of optimization using swift/triplecast+flare midway to fill and end the fire phase earlier - single target fights. Of course, depends on the potency of this new action too.

they did the summoner pretty fast as well. so i think they cut out parts of the vid and put it back together to make it look fast and or they sped the vid up

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Originally Posted by Cyth_

MP recovery now requiring casting Ice spells - This single almost entirely kills Non-Standard play

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I mean... That's precisely their goal... So I'm not surewhqt you're expecting.

They don't want funk ass weird alternative rotation.

I'm still surprised transpose fireIII will still exist personally.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I mean... That's precisely their goal... So I'm not surewhqt you're expecting.

They don't want funk ass weird alternative rotation.

I'm still surprised transpose fireIII will still exist personally.

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God forbid a single class require a modicum of thought, I guess.

I would agree that devs need to rethink about their decision on the BLM changes. There are many things that cannot be changed going into Dawntrail such as the new gauge. But there is one thing I can suggest... Instead of having Ice spells recover mana in umbral ice phase make it so all spells under umbral ice phase will recover mana. This fixes the problem of having mana ticks while keeping some aspects of double transpose rotation alive.

For those saying standardizing all jobs is a good thing is because most likely you have never experience high end raiding and the game should have jobs both easy&simple as well as hard&complex.

I personally follow standard most of the time, so this doesn't really effect me. Infact I like some of the changes, another fire spell seems cool, leylines being moved can help some pain points but isn't ruined by suggestions such as "make it follow the black mage!!!" I think manafont is looking like it fully restores MP and you gain 3 ice stacks so that cooldown is looking a lot more stronger.

That being said I do think it's pretty disappointing to hear that they are removing it for people who enjoyed Non-standard BLM gameplay I think while ice ticks *can* be annoying to a lot of people with making things more inconsistent at the end of the day I don't think the trade off of removing a gameplay high optimised style is a good thing

I don't know if they set out to remove non-standard or they just felt they didn't need to support it. I would also imagine supporting it would set a dangerous precedent as non-standard rotations in other jobs would also have to be supported lest the community accuse SE of favoring Yoshi P's favorite job.

Effectively keeping non-standard alive is asking to take it into consideration when doing BLM job design for DT. It's far easier to just support the official rotation rather than figure out how to get both to work and be balanced. If another non-standard rotation is found, I'm sure they're fine with you using it if it's within balance bounds. And if you do, yay! Go use it.

For me, I'd rather they spend the time updating another job than trying to find a way to preserve non-standard for BLM.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

God forbid a single class require a modicum of thought, I guess.

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I don't disagree, but they've steadily removed any form of non-standard play from any jobs hence this being totally in line with their design direction.

On the other hand, there's been constant talk about the issue of the clunkiness of mp ticks, so this being adressed is (to me) not only unsurprising, but them addressing any non-standard gameplay seems like a way to hit 2 birds with one stone.
The game's direction has been more centered around dealing with the boss mechanic than the job mechanic.

I have my concern, which I hope they took into consideration when making the change such as "what happens during cutscene? Do I always end-up oom if I don't cast my BlizzIV before my character get stunned for 60s?"
It would usually only be an issue for Ult fight but still. What about low level? I'm expecting umbral soul to become much lower level...

Also, it seems paradox becomes instant, which is a nice and bad thing as it makes the second part of the firephase tighter as your timer refreshes at the beggining of the gcd and not the end.

On a side note, I'm not super thrilled about the new fire spell... I don't like that it requires 6 FireIV... becauses it means it's just "another finisher" (and we already got RDM if we want to do a finisher, of a finisher, of a finisher, of a finisher).
We'll see how it plays out.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I don't know if they set out to remove non-standard or they just felt they didn't need to support it. I would also imagine supporting it would set a dangerous precedent as non-standard rotations in other jobs would also have to be supported lest the community accuse SE of favoring Yoshi P's favorite job.

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People haven't exactly waited for Dawntrail to do just that tbh.

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Originally Posted by YuuYun

For those saying standardizing all jobs is a good thing is because most likely you have never experience high end raiding and the game should have jobs both easy&simple as well as hard&complex.

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No need to get into blanket statements, you don't need to do high level raiding to optimize your job, and certainly not for non standard. It's what's cool with job design, it can apply to most types of content.

I don't play BLM, but are mains mad that BLM is just getting more fire? A slightly bigger fire blast seems kinda lame after so many other fire upgrades, and an entire dumb gauge devoted to fire and more fire seems like a slap in the face to me.

Paradox was nice. I feel like that was a better direction to take the job, like a convergence of fire, ice, and lightning.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't play BLM, but are mains mad that BLM is just getting more fire? A slightly bigger fire blast seems kinda lame after so many other fire upgrades, and an entire dumb gauge devoted to fire and more fire seems like a slap in the face to me.

Paradox was nice. I feel like that was a better direction to take the job, like a convergence of fire, ice, and lightning.

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No it’s a combo of 2 things

1) to get this new skill you must press 6 fire 4’s, this means “short lines” (ie rotation loops where you don’t get umbral hearts so you don’t have enough mana to cast 6 fire 4’s) are pretty much gone since you basically need to do 6 fire 4’s now
2) you now need to cast a spell (presumably an ice spell) in umbral ice to get mana back rather than just being in umbral ice. Most of the “non standard” play in BLM involves transposing into umbral ice then casting large gain spells like thunder 3 or xenoglossy to skip casting weak ice spells like blizzard 3 and blizzard 4

The changes in DT are removing both of these situations

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No it’s a combo of 2 things

1) to get this new skill you must press 6 fire 4’s, this means “short lines” (ie rotation loops where you don’t get umbral hearts so you don’t have enough mana to cast 6 fire 4’s) are pretty much gone since you basically need to do 6 fire 4’s now
2) you now need to cast a spell (presumably an ice spell) in umbral ice to get mana back rather than just being in umbral ice. Most of the “non standard” play in BLM involves transposing into umbral ice then casting large gain spells like thunder 3 or xenoglossy to skip casting weak ice spells like blizzard 3 and blizzard 4

The changes in DT are removing both of these situations

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So they're making black mage at the top level play like it should: Maximum amount of explosions, and actually casting ice spells to recover mana.

Good changes. Non-standard being meta was a mess.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't play BLM, but are mains mad that BLM is just getting more fire? A slightly bigger fire blast seems kinda lame after so many other fire upgrades, and an entire dumb gauge devoted to fire and more fire seems like a slap in the face to me.

Paradox was nice. I feel like that was a better direction to take the job, like a convergence of fire, ice, and lightning.

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The non Standard are, who complains (i didnt even kmowed, that something like that existed).

The change looks to be nice.
You allready needed ice attacks to fill the slots, and be able to cast as many fire attacks as possible. Without ice would you burn up your mp to fast.
That the ice attacks give now mp looks logical. Because whe was allready supposed to do that. And i noticed it in the last few days, that it is weird, that it was not allready the case.

What whe now need to know is, how strong the mp recovery will be.
For now are whe have to wait and are able to cast around 2 ice spells, maybe 3, until the mp is full.
Its now the question, if whe need only 2 attacks to do that. Or, will it take more time now.

Aside of that do i agree, that i would like some variation in magic attacks to. Luke firewall / fire beam, as line attack.
Even the new thunderspell is a bit sad.
Its looks impressiv and is a nice idea, with multiple thunderballs, who are creating a thunder rain. But, it feeled more satisfied, to shoot one Ball, who is than expanding.

I just don’t really see any benefit to this

The lore states umbral ice is a state of rest and recovery, not specifically channeling ice magic helps recover mana, I don’t really see why xenoglossy in ice phase is any different to blizzard 4

As for standard vs non standard I don’t really see the point in removing non Standard because full standard is still completely viable. In the current balance non standard optimised to hells and back is about top DPS while full standard BLM is still around average for a melee, that’s basically how BLM balance has always been. What’s the point of removing optimisation for those who want it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No it’s a combo of 2 things

1) to get this new skill you must press 6 fire 4’s, this means “short lines” (ie rotation loops where you don’t get umbral hearts so you don’t have enough mana to cast 6 fire 4’s) are pretty much gone since you basically need to do 6 fire 4’s now
2) you now need to cast a spell (presumably an ice spell) in umbral ice to get mana back rather than just being in umbral ice. Most of the “non standard” play in BLM involves transposing into umbral ice then casting large gain spells like thunder 3 or xenoglossy to skip casting weak ice spells like blizzard 3 and blizzard 4

The changes in DT are removing both of these situations

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It surely feels like it was not intentional of them, am I right?

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Originally Posted by Valence

It surely feels like it was not intentional of them, am I right?

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Oh no it 100% feels intentional

If you asked me “what two changes could we make to BLM that would most effectively kill non standard lines” this is exactly the two changes I would suggest and I’m not even a good BLM, I just have more theoretical knowledge of BLM optimisation than I should for my skill in the job

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I just don’t really see any benefit to this

The lore states umbral ice is a state of rest and recovery, not specifically channeling ice magic helps recover mana, I don’t really see why xenoglossy in ice phase is any different to blizzard 4

As for standard vs non standard I don’t really see the point in removing non Standard because full standard is still completely viable. In the current balance non standard optimised to hells and back is about top DPS while full standard BLM is still around average for a melee, that’s basically how BLM balance has always been. What’s the point of removing optimisation for those who want it

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The reason is simple: There exists a player that both cares about being optimal and also enjoying the job fantasy to the fullest. Having non-standard being the meta potency denies this player their maximum satisfaction just to please people who like to parse highest and don't care about job fantasy.

The aforementioned player is the most important player in the game. Obviously what they desire should be meta. Not casting ice magic and casting way less fire 4 is an abomination to that player. If you don't see why xenoglossy isn't any different to blizzard 4, you're not that guy pal.

It's not complicated. Non-standard being the most optimal way of playing the job was a waste.

Yeah it's definitely intentional. what's not intentional is the current nonstandard play.
The game doesnt have elemental strength/weakness mechanics, so BLM whose identity is hitting enemies with the elemental spells they're weak against, need something new to make their elemental spells relevant. Their solution is make all the different element spells have their own use, so we have a reason to use all the different element.
And so they decided to make it like this:

lightning element: DoT
fire element: pure damage
ice element: MP recovery

on paper it looks good. but in practice, with the current job mechanic that relies on mp ticks, ppl find a way to recover MP without casting the ice spells. which defeats the purpose of making the ice spells recover MP.
So the point is they want all the 3 elements used properly, instead of having the ice spell avoided due to the nonstandard play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

The reason is simple: There exists a player that both cares about being optimal and also enjoying the job fantasy to the fullest. Having non-standard being the meta potency denies this player their maximum satisfaction just to please people who like to parse highest and don't care about job fantasy.

The aforementioned player is the most important player in the game. Obviously what they desire should be meta. Not casting ice magic and casting way less fire 4 is an abomination to that player. If you don't see why xenoglossy isn't any different to blizzard 4, you're not that guy pal.

It's not complicated. Non-standard being the most optimal way of playing the job was a waste.

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The “the job fantasy is the way to the best DPS” and not “the optimiser is the way to the best DPS” is the most important person why exactly?

Especially given almost all the modern jobs are an affront to the lore they are built on, hell a job like SMN doesn’t even have lore anymore but it’s better because it “feels” like a SMN

I can scarcely think of a job that actually fits its lore at this point yet lore enjoyers are apparently most important

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

yeah it's definitely intentional. what's not intentional is the current nonstandard play.
the game doesnt have elemental strength/weakness mechanics, so blm whose identity is hitting enemies with the elemental spells they're weak against, need something new to make their elemental spells relevant. Their solution is make all the different element spells have their own use, so we have a reason to use all the different element. They make lightning element: DoT, fire element: pure damage, ice element: MP recovery. on paper it looks good. but in practice, with the current job mechanic that relies on mp ticks, ppl find a way to recover MP without casting the ice spells. which defeats the purpose of making the ice spells recover MP.
So the point is they want all the 3 elements used properly, instead of having the ice spell avoided due to the non standard play.

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Here is an example of the job not fitting the lore. The lore states umbral ice is a rest phase to recover mana. It’s the act of being in umbral ice that recovers mana not casting ice spells specifically. So which is it? Is the lore more important or the “feel of he job”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The “the job fantasy is the way to the best DPS” and not “the optimiser is the way to the best DPS” is the most important person why exactly?

Especially given almost all the modern jobs are an affront to the lore they are built on, hell a job like SMN doesn’t even have lore anymore but it’s better because it “feels” like a SMN

I can scarcely think of a job that actually fits its lore at this point yet lore enjoyers are apparently most important



Here is an example of the job not fitting the lore. The lore states umbral ice is a rest phase to recover mana. It’s the act of being in umbral ice that recovers mana not casting ice spells specifically. So which is it? Is the lore more important or the “feel of he job”

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Why? Because they try the hardest on top of playing the game for fantasy. People who care about non-standard are trying to break the game for higher numbers and couldn't care less about the satisfaction of the job design or spells that the devs created. If the highest potency was to press one button, the non-standard player would play that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Why? Because they try the hardest on top of playing the game for fantasy. People who care about non-standard are trying to break the game for higher numbers and couldn't care less about the satisfaction of the job design or spells that the devs created. If the highest potency was to press one button, the non-standard player would play that way.

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Except non standard doesn’t break any lore conventions because as I said umbral ice is what restores MP, not channeling ice magic specifically, this is explained in the like level 5 THM quest

If you oppose non standard lines it sounds like you actually oppose skills that facilitate their ability to exist (which is mainly transpose and xenoglossy) because remember the lore states there is no functional difference between xeno and blizzard 4 when in umbral ice because its umbral ice itself that allows for mana regen (same reason astral fire cancels natural MP regen)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Here is an example of the job not fitting the lore. The lore states umbral ice is a rest phase to recover mana. It’s the act of being in umbral ice that recovers mana not casting ice spells specifically. So which is it? Is the lore more important or the “feel of he job”

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i would say its not 'not fitting', more like something thats not stated clearly.
even if the lore states umbral ice is for mp recovery, but then the context is you need to cast ice spells and be casting ice spells during the phase, then it goes without saying that you need to cast the ice spells. but then making it based on MP ticks is clearly an oversight from the developers because again they intention is to make the different element spells to be used, not avoided. then the lore was written to fit the job mechs, which was made with the oversight.