Reddit vs. the Forums in the Graphics War of '24

Any issues I have with the benchmark graphics will be swiftly solved via reshade etc.

It's not perfect by any means but it's a net win in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If only there were people whose job is to gather data, discern what's meaningful and present it to the devs...

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Yeah they are called Community Managers and seem to be completely MIA for FFXIV :)

Or if this data is being collected and they have defined reasons for what they do why do they refuse to tell us

Take healer changes post ShB, if they had the data to say that the change was unequivocally better and it helped the healer queues immensely why don’t they tell us that and laud it as a success (like they do with the ultra streamlined dungeon design that people regularly complain about) rather than dodging the question and going “go play ultimate” to us

Same as l it really any other issue relating to the job system

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean let’s not pretend like the reverse isn’t true, the average forum user who is fine with a change or likes the current state of something basically always resorts to the old fallacy of “you have opinion A I have counter opinion B unless you can show me overwhelming evidence of A we should assume B is right by default despite me showing no evidence of B”

Functionally anytime someone makes an argument someone will hit them with “well this is just the forum people who are happy aren’t coming to the forum to complain”, it’s not like square ever releases data on whether something is popular or not

Let’s not pretend like “i made an argument everyone has to agree with me” is the only form of problematic argument



Literally perfect example in the next comment, “they probably are popular, let’s just assume they are popular” and not “hey they might not actually listen to feedback as much as we think they do

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My dude, just about everything they do is in response to feedback. 2 minute meta? Feedback. Tank and healer remake in shb? Feedback. Everything they've done post launch with housing is feedback. Glamour plates? Feedback. They cut the exploratory mission in EW because of feedback and they are bringing it back in DT because of the counter feedback. They brought back a deep dungeon because of feedback but that got morbin timed. Criterion is a direct response to the endless asks for smaller group hard content. Dedicated face slot and dye channels? Feedback. It was interesting when the response to kaiten's removal wasn't strong enough to get them to reverse course on that but it did get them to not go forward with some other changes they had planned.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Or if this data is being collected

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There is no way to collect opinions objectively. Every single game that is in beta where devs want feedback provides clear and official means to submit it. Usually this is even done in-game.

If they wanted feedback for graphical changes all they had to do to add something to the benchmark with "Did you like the changes? If yes/no what did you like about them".

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

My dude, just about everything they do is in response to feedback. 2 minute meta? Feedback. Tank and healer remake in shb? Feedback. Everything they've done post launch with housing is feedback. Glamour plates? Feedback. They cut the exploratory mission in EW because of feedback and they are bringing it back in DT because of the counter feedback. They brought back a deep dungeon because of feedback but that got morbin timed. Criterion is a direct response to the endless asks for smaller group hard content. Dedicated face slot and dye channels? Feedback. It was interesting when the response to kaiten's removal wasn't strong enough to get them to reverse course on that but it did get them to not go forward with some other changes they had planned.

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Housings biggest feedback from day 1 was “make it instanced” they have literally ignored the most common feedback about housing since day 1 and dance around it because they themselves have said they like the neighbourhood feeling, when was the last time someone praised the neighbourhood feeling of the houses

Same as tanks and healers, they had the same feedback in SB, “I don’t like losing damage to perform my core function and relying excessively on the party to help me achieve the core function. In response they nuked agro out of the tanks and designed healers like they are playing a different game and satisfaction crashed on those jobs going into ShB, yet they did not reverse course at all

At best they overcorrect in response to poorly constructed feedback then refuse to backtrack on the over correction at worst they just ignore feedback and implement their vision anyway. You also said “feedback to Kaiten wasn’t strong enough to reverse course. Was there a single shred of positive feedback on the Kaiten changes”, if there was why didn’t they mention it, all they said was “give it a try you might love it anyway”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square enix needs to come out and admit where they actually pull feedback from because it doesn’t seem to be anywhere. Reddit and twitter get outright ignored while the white knights tell people to come to the forums, people come to the forums and get radio silence while we continue to spin round the same 5 topics they refuse to acknowledge

Then people say go to the JP forums and then they seem to ignore that as well, the JP forums didn’t like Kaiten or the healer reworks or the simplicity of modern SMN, they got ignored as well


At this point just tell us to put up and shut up if they won’t take feedback from us anywhere, even their own channels

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They've said several time they use the like system of the forum to see what are agreed on problems. Problem is, in the english forum, nobody use the like system, and people prefer to create their own thread to talk about the exact same thing. A popular post will often stay in the 60-80 likes range. That's why this thread getting to the 200 mark in a couple of days despite the number of thread is pretty telling on how big the problem is. But anyway, who will consider changes for 60 people. Also, there are things like ingame metrics we don't have access to, or only limited version like FFXIVcensus or luckybancho data. Some people complain about the new summoner, that it's too easy (I can understand that), but right now, it's the most played class. Of course they're not gonna change it, because some raiders/hardcore players want it to be more difficult.

And more often than not, people liked post are just someone getting roasted. SE don't take in account how players give their feedback, and player don't take in account how SE thought the system.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

There's absolutely nothing wrong with people coming here to voice their criticisms or concerns as an attempt to change the direction of the game. The problem arises when people decide it requires no organization to it, to fill up the board, and act like everyone in the world agrees with them.

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Hmm, yes i agree but thats on SE. I thought mods and the like sort that stuff out and make sure this forum works but i only saw a mod once or twice doing things here. So thats on them.

The reason r/ffxiv is having such a different reaction is because that place is a toxic positivity hugbox where anyone saying they take issue with or dislike anything about the game is downvoted into oblivion. They are the most parasocial to Yoshi-P and Square Enix XIV community on the internet. I've had better, more nuanced discussions on r/shitpostXIV and the bar is on the floor there. Not to mention that a Reddit thread isn't a great place to post a bunch of comparison pictures. Most of the people with issues, like me, have very specific parts of the face we can point to and say "look at this, it looks worse now." Reddit just isn't a good place structurally for me to post about the topic.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

They've said several time they use the like system of the forum to see what are agreed on problems. Problem is, in the english forum, nobody use the like system, and people prefer to create their own thread to talk about the exact same thing. A popular post will often stay in the 60-80 likes range. That's why this thread getting to the 200 mark in a couple of days despite the number of thread is pretty telling on how big the problem is. But anyway, who will consider changes for 60 people. Also, there are things like ingame metrics we don't have access to, or only limited version like FFXIVcensus or luckybancho data. Some people complain about the new summoner, that it's too easy (I can understand that), but right now, it's the most played class. Of course they're not gonna change it, because some raiders/hardcore players want it to be more difficult.

And more often than not, people liked post are just someone getting roasted. SE don't take in account how players give their feedback, and player don't take in account how SE thought the system.

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This circles back to my earlier point, if they have a specific criteria or arrangement of the forums they desire before they take feedback from it then
1) they need to make it clearer what they want
2) the mods need to actually do something about condensing the threads to give the desired result like they do on the JP forums

99.9% of people here probably don’t know that square wants them to go upvote another post 10295010601052050 pages ago in a megathread if they want a change over making a post of their own trying to get attention

They basically lead us on a wild goose chase around the forums then incorporate less than none of our feedback because we don’t meet that standard

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

I wonder why the two have such different perspectives..

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Because on Reddit you can be downvoted. And the redditors are not scared to instantly and dramatically downvote anyone who has any criticism, even if it's constructive, while sending reddit cares after you and even sometimes doxxing you. They literally cannot take anyone speaking ill of the game on those sites and will get super aggressive about how perfect this game is to them. Everyone I know avoids the FFXIV subreddits like the plague.

Reddit and Twitter are the reasons ffxiv players have a certain reputation in the mmo communities at large.

There might honestly be a disparity in the races they play? Every time I peek into the XIV sub, it's full of fanart that's just pictures of scantily clad catgirls. Catgirls in general seem to not have been hit as hard by the update as say, Au Ra.

One poll I saw on Reddit had hundreds of 'very happy' and 'pretty happy' responses vs less than 50 'really unhappy' (paraphrasing the responses here but that was the general vibe of them).

It basically does seem like the vast majority of people are happy with the update. And most people who are really happy aren't going to come to the forum and just shout about how happy they are.

I love it when you visit Twitter and you see someone crop a take or opinion that was found here, and they never directly reply to the post here on the forums but they do on Twitter, and it gets like 1000 more replies and updoots. Then you find the same post on the forums, a dead thread.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Housings biggest feedback from day 1 was “make it instanced” they have literally ignored the most common feedback about housing since day 1 and dance around it because they themselves have said they like the neighbourhood feeling, when was the last time someone praised the neighbourhood feeling of the houses

Same as tanks and healers, they had the same feedback in SB, “I don’t like losing damage to perform my core function and relying excessively on the party to help me achieve the core function. In response they nuked agro out of the tanks and designed healers like they are playing a different game and satisfaction crashed on those jobs going into ShB, yet they did not reverse course at all

At best they overcorrect in response to poorly constructed feedback then refuse to backtrack on the over correction at worst they just ignore feedback and implement their vision anyway. You also said “feedback to Kaiten wasn’t strong enough to reverse course. Was there a single shred of positive feedback on the Kaiten changes”, if there was why didn’t they mention it, all they said was “give it a try you might love it anyway”

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Apartments are the compromise they came up with for instanced housing. You can think this sucks, and honestly, I would agree, but you can't say they ignored it.

You have 0 evidence that a satisfaction crash ever happened. You at best have anecdotal evidence that people on this forum have been posting angrily about it but this forum doesn't represent even 1% of the active playerbase. Regardless, your feedback has not been ignored, the 340 page thread named Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate" came about from him directly addressing healer feedback. In a way that you can find unsatisfactory if you are so inclined (and I'd also agree it's a shit answer), but it's not ignored.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Apartments are the compromise they came up with for instanced housing. You can think this sucks, and honestly, I would agree, but you can't say they ignored it.

You have 0 evidence that a satisfaction crash ever happened. You at best have anecdotal evidence that people on this forum have been posting angrily about it but this forum doesn't represent even 1% of the active playerbase. Regardless, your feedback has not been ignored, the 340 page thread named Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate" came about from him directly addressing healer feedback. In a way that you can find unsatisfactory if you are so inclined (and I'd also agree it's a shit answer), but it's not ignored.

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Would you prefer I link you the job satisfaction surveys going into 5.x that saw AST and SCH go from middle of the pack to last and second last and for DRK and WAR to crash near 10 spots each or does that also not count as evidence

Again it circles back to the point that people on the forum way too easily resort to “let’s just assume I’m right because there isn’t overwhelming evidence to the contrary”

And are you really going to argue that a shit compromise nobody actually likes counts as valid response to feedback rather than actually implementing the feedback

Because this is the place for player feedback. We are literally asked by the devs to leave feedback here, and usually that’s what we would like to see improved.

Think of all the stuff we'd get done if we were actually in game instead of Reddit.

https://i.imgur.com/u3KQd7A.gif

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Would you prefer I link you the job satisfaction surveys going into 5.x that saw AST and SCH go from middle of the pack to last and second last and for DRK and WAR to crash near 10 spots each or does that also not count as evidence

Again it circles back to the point that people on the forum way too easily resort to “let’s just assume I’m right because there isn’t overwhelming evidence to the contrary”

And are you really going to argue that a shit compromise nobody actually likes counts as valid response to feedback rather than actually implementing the feedback

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Yeah, post the surveys. lmao at trying to be disparaging towards needing actual evidence for things, that's classic official forum posting right there. Like my anecdotal evidence is I play a dps and if tanks and healers vanished my queue time would be insufferable. But they are better now than they were prior to shb so you're going to need to give me some hard data. Preferably something more recent than some survey from 5.x but I will take what you got.

And yeah, they listened to the feedback and implemented a change based on it and have continued to implement more and more stuff as time has gone on to try and appease the playerbase with regards to housing because they value the non-instanced experience for... some insane reason. I don't get it either. I've owned a house since they let individuals buy them and I have had 0 experiences with anyone else in my wards. Other than being furious at the guy with a dozen namazu statues in their yard making a racket and making my local auction board basically unusable.

I'd bet money on they don't want to pay for that and don't want to deal with the blowback from outright saying it, if I had to guess.

I wanted to write down one or two thoughts on why I think reddit's way of presenting and engaging with content leads to a different way of approaching things but then it spiraled out of control so I'm putting it under the spoiler tag to not bury others under a wall of text.

Anyway, here is my convoluted pseudo-psychological explanation why I think people on reddit and twitter seem so different in their opinions.

I think reddit also fosters a different kind of mentality because it's a lot more fast-paced in its way to handle threads and not really like a forum (at least the subreddit main page isn’t) where threads with activity get pushed to the top no matter how old they are. Plus you cannot put images in your replies in the way you can do it here.

Here we can argue very thoroughly in the same thread for days (a blessing, a curse, you decide) so discussions on the same thing go on longer.

This can either result in talking in circles of course, but when it goes well it also means a topic can be elaborated and explored in a lot more detail.

Also, to my knowledge being able to illustrate your standpoint or counter arguments with images in an ongoing thread isn't really a thing on reddit.

You can reply with walls of texts but since the topic of the graphical update in particular really benefits from visual examples you can't really go into a reddit thread that opens with an image and point out how you view it differently with counter images (e.g., by showing your analysis or by drawing over the OP's image etc.).

You'd have to make a new reddit post for that which would lead to lots of disjointed discussions.

Here, despite the chaos on the English forum, you can still make collection threads and compile lots of visual examples in one place. It's not as good as on the Japanese side but I do think the general race-based collection threads like the one for viera or au ra do a good job to illustrate certain problems consistently and to direct players to one place/a few places to voice their concerns (again, not perfect; I know lots of people also make their own threads).

I think this has led to a lot more thorough visual analyses on here than on reddit.
Imo the posting style does influence how you perceive certain things because had I not gone to the forums I would not have realised why I'm rather unhappy with many aspects of the benchmark as a whole.

I only saw that I didn't like the way my char looked and could point out why but seeing it happen to so many people and reading through many of the detailed diagrams and breakdowns really led to lots of "aha" moments I would have missed had I only stayed on reddit.

So reddit, despite being better than Twitter still fosters more of a shallow "scroll down" type of engagement with content.

Whereas "old-school" forums are not feed-based but activity based, leading (me, at least) to a completely different way of taking its info in.

It slows down. I think about it more. I don't have this (semi-unconscious) habit or expectation to constantly scroll down and see something new that demands attention in its own right. I spread the limited attention I have across a lot more topics within the same time span without investing too much in any single one of them.

Sure, right now the forum is on fire too and there are lots of threads happening at the same time but I still frequent the same threads over and over to see how they evolve. I just don't really do that on reddit tbh. (But perhaps that's just me.)

A feed that is constantly updated chronologically (or algo based) also makes it harder to go back to interesting things you saw before. With a forum it's not perfect but you can always make things relevant again. Nothing is really lost in the void of the feed.

(And as other people already mentioned, another problem is that if people downvote you too much your post becomes hidden unless someone actively clicks to look at it. So you can make critical voices invisible really easily.)

That's my convoluted pseudo-psychological explanation.

One of their latest benchmark threads discusses the lighting as the main source of character changes and there’s barely any *discussion*, as in a back and forth of proper arguments, taking place. There were a handful of people who posted links to examples of data miners showing how things were clearly remodeled beyond lighting and people didn't really engaged with that.

Mostly it’s just agreeing, insinuating that critical voices must be as a whole too dense to consider to check the lighting and so forth.

As forum-y as the forum can be, I appreciate the direct exchanges regarding the benchmark on here a lot more than on reddit, even the disagreements.

On reddit many people have just…decided it seems that people on the forum have no arguments and just whine, completely ignoring (or being unaware of) the wide range of detailed and neutral analyses, especially on the Japanese side. Since they don't see any of that (or ignore it purposefully, I don't know) they can just walk away without having their assumptions corrected and call it a day.

Here is 4.0 pulled from most sources


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...rcpYc85kU/edit

Here is 5.0 and 5.25, sources are pulled from reddit, twitter and the OF’s


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/cnLENI3I9z

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dt2nLg41A/edit

Sure they aren’t official but they are the largest surveys we publicly have access to since square never share anything official and both the 5.x surveys show the same thing, healers crashed hard and tanks wrote mildly unpopular (though tanks are harder to measure due to GNB)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/s/JyMj9ou2s9

Evidence from here shows that healers didn’t really recover with SGE as it didn’t particularly revitalise the healer space in terms of distribution and healers experienced their lowest usage in savage for years in abyssos

We have no evidence healers have recovered or are more well received these days considering even yoshi p is dodging healer questions at this point

Another distinction I've noticed between the forums and Reddit is that Reddit tends to attract influencers, a point that hasn't been emphasized much. Reddit serves as the primary platform for influencers within the FFXIV community, a contrast to the less influencer-driven forums. Prominent figures such as Mr. Happy, Xeno, and Zepla seldom participate in forum discussions, which also lack content like Fashion Reports and other guides to bring traffic. On Reddit, however, content creators frequently react to conversations and occasionally share voices of their own. If you seek to have your voice heard, Reddit offers greater visibility, particularly for controversial opinions. However, this does not equate to better discussion simply better visibility. This is significant because influencers often have the opportunity to meet Yoshi-P in person, potentially elevating your feedback beyond the confines of the forums. We're all familiar with the meme about developers ignoring the NA forums and the perception of lackluster moderation here. This perception has likely contributed to users gravitating towards Reddit, which is often seen as more community-driven, even though the forums are intended for feedback.

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Originally Posted by twobear

One poll I saw on Reddit had hundreds of 'very happy' and 'pretty happy' responses vs less than 50 'really unhappy' (paraphrasing the responses here but that was the general vibe of them).

It basically does seem like the vast majority of people are happy with the update. And most people who are really happy aren't going to come to the forum and just shout about how happy they are.

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The real question is : are they mostly happy there because that the general concensus of the FFXIV player base or are they happy there because everyone that disagreed with them was downvoted to oblivion to the point they don't bother with reddit anymore? My guess is that it's probably a little bit of both, you can't deny that, on the larger scale people are mostly happy the game, except for some niche, like raiders or people that have thousands of hours of gametime, but the stats on reddit are still high because of that echo chamber process.

But honestly, those past month, I feel like the forum have been in a better shape, the obvious trolls are either taking a break or been banned, so overall, I feel like the forum is a far better place than a year ago.

[edit]
After checking it, it seems there was a ban wave of trolls at the end of last summer, and that we now have some kind of moderation, and that's why the forum is far less of zoo than it was a year ago - I'll give SE credit for that, that was needed. It still not perfect, but it's going in the right direction. That's something reddit hasn't acknoledged yet.

I was discussing this in a Discord chat earlier, and someone drew a comparison between Reddit being more liberal and the forums being more conservative.

Dont downvotes get cast to the abyss in Reddit. So if someone says something is bad and another person agrees and downvotes that photo because they dont like that, the only thing remains is positive comments.

I have seen in a few of my facebook groups people being indifferent about the changes. Some say is good and several people go into the most tiny details.

The real question is SE looking at this feedback or can we assume everything is set in stone.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...rcpYc85kU/edit

Not as damning as advertised. Sample sizes are super small. Your best case here is scholar, but even that data doesn't show significant healer dissatisfaction since of the people that swapped out of scholar, 64% of them swapped to another healer. But ultimately, not enough responders.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/cnLENI3I9z

Rubbish, need the actual english survey this graph is based off of to see what the sample sizes are, could not find that information skimming the comments. Trying to find that post led me to this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=991492593 and this is still not remotely a good enough sample size for accurate data. But it does at least show massive dissatisfaction for scholars and asts. Not white mages though, white mages are loving it. Also loving it, literally all of the tanks.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dt2nLg41A/edit This one still has sample sizes that are too small but it's getting closer! Here we see that scholars are super unhappy. Asts and warriors are net positive but not super great, and everyone else is clearly positive.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/s/JyMj9ou2s9

I legitimately have no idea what you are trying to prove with this. First, this is a super bias'd source since it self-selects from the group of people who upload to fflogs, but I'll set that aside and roll with it. In the 6.05 data healers accounted for 25.0013% of all raiders and in the 6.1 data that number dropped to... 25.0003%. So I have no idea how you pulled "healers experienced their lowest usage in savage for years in abyssos" from this data. It does seem to corroborate not particularly revitalizing the healer space in terms of distribution though.

So in conclusion, based on this data you provided (which is largely highly suspect but you work with what you've got), you absolutely cannot claim that there is widespread tank dissatisfaction at all. None of these things you posted show that. Also shout outs to warriors for being the most dissatisfied of the tanks while having literally everything handed to them constantly, the giant babies.

Healers you can definitely show that astrologians and scholars are big mad so I will concede on them, but white mages seem extremely satisfied, and it looks like sage is relatively popular based on fflogs but that's the only data we've got.

Because MMORPG forums, even though they're spaces that I otherwise enjoy, tend to be pessimistic. Reddit, on the other hand, is all about 'good vibes'. It's not just a question of "reddit doxa" and the like, it's also a general tendency of this forum to criticise absolutely everything and anything.

I’ll concede the tanks aren’t as bad as I remembered them being but I think it’s pretty damming with healers, I’ll also note that they have proceeded to not change any of the healers since then

My comment on abyssos wasn’t related to that data, just the overall phenomena of the healer shortage caused by abysoss’s problems, that data was only showing SGE didn’t really do much to revitalise the healer space

I don’t have anything else as square never tells us anything but it’s at least something, I have nothing else to work on, the alternative is just blindly believing square and I don’t think that’s particularly accurate

It's always the same somehow. If the forum is too positive, people like to say that it's an echo chamber. If it gets negative here and other sites are more positive, then the forum is suddenly super cool and the others have an echo chamber.

Of course, the forum and the criticism in it are completely justified. But that doesn't mean that the opinions posted there are the only correct ones or even that they correspond to the majority. Just as the opinions on Reddit and other channels don't carry more weight.

They are simply different ways of exchanging opinions. Here you have to have an active subscription to be able to post at all. That can slow down the amount of people who write. Whereas for Reddit, you only need one account that is always active and that you can use for many different topics. In my opinion, it's easier to quickly give your opinion or rate a comment.

And yes, you can also give a thumbs down on Reddit, but imo that doesn't mean that the result is distorted. Maybe there are just more people there who think its fine. After all, there still have to be people who rate a post positively.

Reddit seems to be convinced that the only difference is in the lighting and refuses to see any proof about changes beyond that. Even cases where people ahve done a direct 1:1 apples to apples comparison in the character creators they will find a reason to excuse it and shut down discussion.
The stereotype is true, r/ffxiv just want to take everything devs say at face value with no more though. No criticism, no challenging devs on whether they are telling the truth or whether things really are improved in certain cases.

One of the top posts on there right now is just a straight up lie, someone claiming every complaint is just lighting differences and anyone with proof otherwise is mass downvoted to hide their arguments and proof. It's truly the strangest thing and I've noticed it in multiple games.
It's incredible how that's supposed to somehow be the center for game discussion when they act like this.

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

Isn't it interesting that most people (though, of course, not everyone) posting on the FFXIV Reddit favour the visual updates to characters, while the opposite is true on this forum?

I wonder why the two have such different perspectives. Hopping between both Reddit and here is like visiting alternative realities.

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I'm in favor of the update too. I just think my character doesn't strictly look better though, some options were effectively removed.

https://imgur.com/a/6gAKOP7

As many others have pointed out, there's a problem with the mouth, nose and eyes.
This is not the upscale we were promised but a change of shape altogether.
I think it's a reasonable criticism.

Just saying, on this forum was the Viera and Ronso thread with hundreds of pages that survive for years until they managed to add them to the game, and then the male Viera and female Hrothgar threads.

When there's a hundred different threads about minor changes, it just makes it seem like gut reaction backlash that will be alleviated with time as people get used to it, and not any form of mutual agreement.

When you have Person A saying "I dislike it for these reasons", and Person B comes along and says "I feel for you, I dislike it for separate reasons", and then they both go and make separate threads, they haven't actually agreed, and if we ever proposed a scenario in which we just do as they say, then we hope to god they don't conflict.

I would imagine half of you like the new lighting, and only dislike some changes with your characters face. The other half hates the new lighting, but enjoys the higher quality of the characters face. How are we to alleviate this?

I just wish a tenth of this fervor could be used for other things. There are so many issues from big to small that need to be fixed in general with the game, but the graphics made you have to change something that has consumed everything about this game. It's killed all discourse to where all it is about is benchmark this or that. Given there's literally nothing to do in game, but it's like you guys with this amount of energy could fix so many things and this is what we're hung up on, but here we are.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

I just wish a tenth of this fervor could be used for other things. There are so many issues from big to small that need to be fixed in general with the game, but the graphics made you have to change something that has consumed everything about this game. It's killed all discourse to where all it is about is benchmark this or that. Given there's literally nothing to do in game, but it's like you guys with this amount of energy could fix so many things and this is what we're hung up on, but here we are.

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I guess this is the other side of the response to "why are the dev's making stickers/portraits/etc when x class is unbalanced/bugged/not fun anymore".

Not everyone has the same level of focus on every part of the game. I'd bet real life money dollars most people participating in the bench gate discourse wouldn't have constructive/actionable feedback on other things like the 2 minute meta, homogenized class designs, body check heavy raid encounters, uninspired dungeon content, etc.

Plus, this is a sudden change which will always get big reactions. Most long standing issues in other areas in the game are a kind of "gradually growing problem" kind of thing and everyone has their own threshold of annoyance it takes for them to finally star speaking up whish is terrible for discourse momentum.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I guess this is the other side of the response to "why are the dev's making stickers/portraits/etc when x class is unbalanced/bugged/not fun anymore".

Not everyone has the same level of focus on every part of the game. I'd bet real life money dollars most people participating in the bench gate discourse wouldn't have constructive/actionable feedback on other things like the 2 minute meta, homogenized class designs, body check heavy raid encounters, uninspired dungeon content, etc.

Plus, this is a sudden change which will always get big reactions. Most long standing issues in other areas in the game are a kind of "gradually growing problem" kind of thing and everyone has their own threshold of annoyance it takes for them to finally star speaking up whish is terrible for discourse momentum.

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I just find it funny. Games infested with bots. Customer service is a joke. The glamour dresser as a system is beyond borked. No cross server DF or PF. I could go on, but they messed up people's characters, and they're giving them a free phantasia, but enough is enough! It's ironically silly.

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Originally Posted by missTori

im actually flabbergasted by all the negative threads regarding a graphics update,
i for one am super excited. i watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS0SGJG2n8 desperius video comparing both old and new models, and it seriously doesnt look that different (in a negative way) to me. i dont know where people are pulling these complaints from

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I have an character that's an elezen that I loaded into the benchmark, and I wasn't mad at it. I thought she looked fine, and the textures were nice. Same for my fem highlander and fem middie alts, a few small differences but overall they kept their vibes and looked nice. And yet, I can't stand what they did to Face 4 Au Ra; it does not keep the spirit of the original face design and instead opted for making it look more like all the other au ra fem faces, rounded and cute and dimpled. So it's seriously a ymmv situation when it really shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I guess this is the other side of the response to "why are the dev's making stickers/portraits/etc when x class is unbalanced/bugged/not fun anymore".

Not everyone has the same level of focus on every part of the game. I'd bet real life money dollars most people participating in the bench gate discourse wouldn't have constructive/actionable feedback on other things like the 2 minute meta, homogenized class designs, body check heavy raid encounters, uninspired dungeon content, etc.

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I was thinking about this earlier and how weird it feels to go from the negative side [worries about job balance, raid design etc] and seeing a lot of pushback and being told to just stop playing a game not for me. Feeling like I'm in a parallel reality like I've slipped across the Berenstein/Berenstain Rubicon into a world where I'm pleased with what the devs have done whilst everyone else is falling to pieces. Do I have to start telling people that it's ok to take a break and go play other games now? [I would never, I get why people are upset I just noticed this too and thought it was really funny]

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

I just wish a tenth of this fervor could be used for other things. There are so many issues from big to small that need to be fixed in general with the game, but the graphics made you have to change something that has consumed everything about this game. It's killed all discourse to where all it is about is benchmark this or that. Given there's literally nothing to do in game, but it's like you guys with this amount of energy could fix so many things and this is what we're hung up on, but here we are.

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Yeah I don't get it, the graphical update looks good enough, but now I really want to focus on the actual important parts of the game, it's really annoying SE makes it so hard by hiding job changes/endgame information for so long and basically until the last minute before release and it's looking like the graphical discussion is gonna be a permanent thing for the entirety of dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Yeah I don't get it, the graphical update looks good enough, but now I really want to focus on the actual important parts of the game, it's really annoying SE makes it so hard by hiding job changes/endgame information for so long and basically until the last minute before release and it's looking like the graphical discussion is gonna be a permanent thing for the entirety of dawntrail.

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Same. I don't really see much of an issue outside of the obvious graphical bugs, but even then, we get a free change, so it's completely borked.

But yeah, there's so much kept in the dark. But they will change stuff if enough people complain.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Here's a post from me 10 years ago:
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Have you considered holding another player's poll to determine how players feel about content? Currently when talking about content you only seem to mention clear rates or number of people participating in it, but this doesn't take into account players who do content out of obligation rather than enjoyment. While the forums do provide some feedback, it is only a small slice of players. It would be nice to know if the game's current direction is in line with what the people playing it want.
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In case you're wondering, they didn't respond. Feel discouraged yet? :cool:

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https://media.tenor.com/9-CRv1-BWXkA...hen-crying.gif