Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by Derio

I agree what most people said. The tanks are extremely close in DPS to now it simply comes down to utility and ease of play. This is where Warrior is a problem. PLD and GNB require much more work for far less gain in terms of the balance of utility and damage.

Devs said that utility will not determine the dps for tank and healers. So we should see an extreme homogenization of the tanks and healers in terms of utility. Otherwise it will be complete chaos come 7.0 in terms of tanks and will see a PLD/WAR meta.

This should be the expansion where GNB/DRK party wide mitigation is addressed along with their self sustain, moreso for DRK since GNB got a little better with 6.0

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Can't wait for them to apply the same logic to jobs that aren't overrepresented by streamers and their fanbase, like Red mage/Summoner/BLM.
But i already know they won't.

Title should be rephrase give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to TBN.

It's not self sustain that's the Issue, It's more the amount In AOE is absurd and warrior is suddenly the tank who "heals allies" even more so then a Paladin. Doesn't make a lot of sense for the Beserker one man army tank
The job design is ridiculous, it's "fun" (not for me) to feel OP and have insane healing, but I'm sure your healers aren't having "fun". Cooldowns should never copy Bloodwhetting, the skill needs to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Title should be rephrase give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to TBN.

It's not self sustain that's the Issue, It's more the amount In AOE is absurd and warrior is suddenly the tank who "heals allies" even more so then a Paladin. Doesn't make a lot of sense for the Beserker one man army tank
The job design is ridiculous, it's "fun" (not for me) to feel OP and have insane healing, but I'm sure your healers aren't having "fun". Cooldowns should never copy Bloodwhetting, the skill needs to be reworked.

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So what? Give Bloodwhetting a 200 cure potency and a 60s cd?

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Originally Posted by Oizen

So what? Give Bloodwhetting a 200 cure potency and a 60s cd?

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Just change bloodwhetting to proc once per GCD, remove shake’s overtime effect and make nascent glint share the healing potency between you and the target

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Just change bloodwhetting to proc once per GCD, remove shake’s overtime effect and make nascent glint share the healing potency between you and the target

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Still wouldn't be enough.
Bw would still be the best short tank cd, Holmgang would still be the best invuln, it would still do the most dps in small group/solo content and Warrior would still be braindead easy to optimise.
I'd remove mitigation from BW and put holmgang's cooldown on 300 seconds as well. That way it would have an actual shortcoming. They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Still wouldn't be enough.
Bw would still be the best short tank cd, Holmgang would still be the best invuln, it would still do the most dps in small group/solo content and Warrior would still be braindead easy to optimise.
I'd remove mitigation from BW and put holmgang's cooldown on 300 seconds as well. That way it would have an actual shortcoming. They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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That was coming with the assumption they will rebalance the DPS in the new expansion, the DPS across the jobs will rarely stay static going into a new expansion as they try to potency balance the new actions

Holmgang definitely needs a nerf on its CD but I was more discussing healing specifically, holmgang warping entire savage tiers around it is an entirely different problem

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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That was actually how WAR was designed in 2.0. Basically no mitigation tools (except Foresight, which increased the defense stat by 20% for 20 seconds, which was around 10%~ mitigation I think and of course only physical) but best tank dps and powerfull selfheals.

The tank stance also gave them 25% increased max HP instead of 20% mitigation. They were meant to be a reactive tank - take damage unmitigated and then use self heals to recover.

It didn't work out and they turned WAR into PLD in 2.1. But WAR was allowed to keep the damage and selfheal (slightly nerfed) and the tank balance has never recovered from this.

Honestly, I just have to question why Nascent Flash and Shake it Off have to heal others. They have the identity of a self-healing tank, that's fine, but why do they then also heal other people?

Heck, why does Shake it Off exist at all? A party shield+heal+regen is hardly fitting of a berserking, self-healing tank.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Still wouldn't be enough.
Bw would still be the best short tank cd, Holmgang would still be the best invuln, it would still do the most dps in small group/solo content and Warrior would still be braindead easy to optimise.
I'd remove mitigation from BW and put holmgang's cooldown on 300 seconds as well. That way it would have an actual shortcoming. They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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Bloodwhetting granting a good amount of healing in single target shouldn't be an issue, but iff you really insist on lowering the output of Bloodwhetting, Raw Intuition and Nascent Flash, then the following tweaks should be made:

• Raw Intuition:
  - Heal potency adjusted from 400p to 300p.
  - Heal can only be triggered once per weaponskill.
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• Bloodwhetting:
  - Heal potency adjusted from 400p to 300p.
  - Shield potency of "Stem the Tide" lowered from 400p to 300p.
  - Heal can only be triggered once per weaponskill.
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• Nascent Flash:
  - Heal potency of "Nascent Flash" (self) adjusted from 400p to 200p.
  - Heal potency of "Nascent Glint" (ally) adjusted from 400p to 300p.
  - Shield potency of "Stem the Tide" lowered from 400p to 300p.
  - Heal can only be triggered once per weaponskill.

Removing the mitigation from these cooldowns is ill advised. Within scope of ultimate raiding, you already use external CDs (healer, DPS) to reduce damage taken by tanks. Making Warrior the one tank who effectively cannot give himself mitigation via short CD will make it a functionally terrible tank, especially if you lengthen the CD timer of Holmgang from 240s to 300s (which they should do). At that point you are literally better off using a DRK in place of WAR and not have to deal with a tank's own mitigation shortage.

If you lower the mitigation of WAR by removing it from BW, they will have to design content around WAR not having it, making every other tank now have excess mitigation.

1. I reckon to remove all barriers on WAR cooldowns and just focus on its self-healing aspect albeit reduced. Let DRK and PLD handle the barrier application. It will still fulfill the mitigation from being aggressive part. And it will also ground the spoiled children that they cannot solo everything and they need healers/dps.
2. Increase the self-barrier from GNB's combo'ed Brutal Shell so they are not that squishy.
3. Give other benefits to TBN so that if it breaks within the first 3 seconds of application, it will get another buff lasting an extra 8-12 seconds. In my opinion, a barrier breaking that early means that the shielded person is sustaining a lot of damage at a relatively short amount of time and may need extra protection. Also, TBN is the only 25-second mit to not have other effects attached to it.

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Originally Posted by rawker

1. I reckon to remove all barriers on WAR cooldowns and just focus on its self-healing aspect albeit reduced. Let DRK and PLD handle the barrier application.
2. Increase the self-barrier from GNB's combo'ed Brutal Shell so they are not that squishy.
3. Give other benefits to TBN so that if it breaks within the first 3 seconds of application, it will get another buff lasting for what remains to TBN's duration. In my opinion, a barrier breaking that early means that the shielded person is sustaining a lot of damage at a relatively short amount of time and may need extra protection.

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1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

2.) I mean... it has a combined healing/shield effect exceeding Soul Eater (by 100) and Storm's Path (by 150). I get "why" it would be nice, as you can share it with someone else, but its 400 effective heal potency per Brutal Shell already.

3.) Based on one end as it would encourage well-timed TBN, but on the other hand it will discourage a potential way of using TBN by making the shield break as late as possible so the next TBN is up earlier for more mitigation. This has been more relevant since Pandemonium raids and the DOT-applying busters (P6S, P8Sp1, P10S) as well as high frequency/ high damage in certain ultimates (tanking Brute Justice in TEA, Trinity autos in DSR p7).

I would like something simple though for shield break, maybe make the next Dart Arts: Edge/Flood of Shadow have +400 heal potency (retaliation hit).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

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Put thy healer cap for a moment. Barrier healers complement regen healers so that the damage intake the party sustains will not require excessive amounts of healing from the co-healer. Current WAR does both with no penalty. Now, since WAR's playstyle is aggressive tanking, he should be able to do so but it will not make him immortal and will still need the aid of healers. Using PLD as an example.. sure he can Clemency himself but Riot Combo only restores 1000MP and Clemency costs 2000MP. Also, PLDs need to stop DPSing to heal with Clemency should he decide to save his allies.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

2.) I mean... it has a combined healing/shield effect exceeding Soul Eater (by 100) and Storm's Path (by 150). I get "why" it would be nice, as you can share it with someone else, but its 400 effective heal potency per Brutal Shell already.

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I don't see how it is broken to give extra barrier to GNB. It can easily be fixed by making the shared barrier from HoC is halved to prevent abuse.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

3.) Based on one end as it would encourage well-timed TBN, but on the other hand it will discourage a potential way of using TBN by making the shield break as late as possible so the next TBN is up earlier for more mitigation. This has been more relevant since Pandemonium raids and the DOT-applying busters (P6S, P8Sp1, P10S) as well as high frequency/ high damage in certain ultimates (tanking Brute Justice in TEA, Trinity autos in DSR p7).

I would like something simple though for shield break, maybe make the next Dart Arts: Edge/Flood of Shadow have +400 heal potency (retaliation hit).

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Let's not limit to the DRK only. Make it so that the target (self if TBN is applied to self) will get a 1 time life leech to their next weapon skill or spell.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

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I'm pretty sure they can come up with something more unique to the WAR identity than a party shield tbh.

Like maybe "Boosts the max HP of self and nearby allies by 20% and delivers a counterattack of 35 potency multiplied by the amount of party members with the buff that got hit.".

So a max HP boost for everyone and a counter of 280 potency for every raidwide/stack taken by the party during the buff duration. Would fit a 'berserker tank' identity more than a partywide shield+heal+regen.

Can we also change its name

SIO made sense when “angry man so angry he shakes off a debuff” but what does shake it off have to do with a party wide shield/heal that you can empower by consuming your mitigations

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm pretty sure they can come up with something more unique to the WAR identity than a party shield tbh.

Like maybe "Boosts the max HP of self and nearby allies by 20% and delivers a counterattack of 35 potency multiplied by the amount of party members with the buff that got hit.".

So a max HP boost for everyone and a counter of 280 potency for every raidwide/stack taken by the party during the buff duration. Would fit a 'berserker tank' identity more than a partywide shield+heal+regen.

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Unless that max HP boost also fills out the HP gained by this effect, it will generally be awful defensively. Aside from that, this could cause issues for heal checks that cleanse with max HP or do damage based on current health and snapshot in a bad spot of using this action if it runs out in that moment (it will kill the player if that happens, as was evident in Deltascape Savage with Mage's Ballad Troubadour and dropping Defiance in a bad moment back then).

An increase in max HP (with heal based on that increase) and a shield of that exact same increase is fundamentally the exact same. Shields are just temporary health, hence you could call it shield HP. A temporary HP shield by encouraging your allies to brace for a big blow and shake it off is very much in line with WAR identity.

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

Vengeance as the sole tank action with an effect like that (and the only 30% mitigation with a bonus effect in general) is a significant outlier.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can we also change its name

SIO made sense when “angry man so angry he shakes off a debuff” but what does shake it off have to do with a party wide shield/heal that you can empower by consuming your mitigations

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Shake it Off = telling your party (and yourself) to brace for an attack and shake it off after it lands.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Unless that max HP boost also fills out the HP gained by this effect, it will generally be awful defensively. Aside from that, this could cause issues for heal checks that cleanse with max HP or do damage based on current health and snapshot in a bad spot of using this action if it runs out in that moment (it will kill the player if that happens, as was evident in Deltascape Savage with Mage's Ballad Troubadour and dropping Defiance in a bad moment back then).

An increase in max HP (with heal based on that increase) and a shield of that exact same increase is fundamentally the exact same. Shields are just temporary health, hence you could call it shield HP. A temporary HP shield by encouraging your allies to brace for a big blow and shake it off is very much in line with WAR identity.

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

Vengeance as the sole tank action with an effect like that (and the only 30% mitigation with a bonus effect in general) is a significant outlier.

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I think shake being AOE thrill works better, delete the regen and the heal and basically make it AOE thrill (or AOE protraction)

They don’t use white hole anymore anyway so it really doesn’t matter on that front

Even if they are fundamentally the same (10% shield vs 10% HP up) trading the regen and the heal for increased healing received seems like something more WAR focused than a shield

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

But you lost me at this part:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

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I'm not seeing how one can use the skill I described in a selfish way, given that the counter potency scales off the amount of people hit, so you'd always want to use it where the entire party is taking multiple hits in a row, that also happens to be where it's the most useful.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think shake being AOE thrill works better, delete the regen and the heal and basically make it AOE thrill (or AOE protraction)

They don’t use white hole anymore anyway so it really doesn’t matter on that front

Even if they are fundamentally the same (10% shield vs 10% HP up) trading the regen and the heal for increased healing received seems like something more WAR focused than a shield

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For a start, even past White Hole we had mechanics that would drop our HP to a single-digit value without death prevention (Heartless Angel, Heartless Archangel, variants of Charybdis, TEA p2 CC using Photon). We also have heal checks vs variants of Doom, requiring full HP to cleanse (Zeromus most recently). Those mechanics are not an issue in a vacuum, but max HP modification on a party-wide scale rather than using shield HP with same effect will cause design problems.

Aside from that, it's semantics, really. They do the same thing, just that max HP increase is fundamentally more prone to wonky mechanic mishaps. Temporary shields, temporary max HP, same deal, different colour.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

But you lost me at this part:



I'm not seeing how one can use the skill I described in a selfish way, given that the counter potency scales off the amount of people hit, so you'd always want to use it where the entire party is taking multiple hits in a row, that also happens to be where it's the most useful.

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Simple. While depending heavily on raid design, it will lead to decisionmaking to prioritize the use of Shake it Off before all other raid mitigation to get more casts out of Shake it Off for damage over the course of a fight.

There was no specification by you with how hard the attacks would need to hit, so "anything" that would simply strike the shield for any amount of damage would trigger the one-time effect, even if the value of using it for defensive purpose would make it more appropriate at a different raidwide attack.

It would also desincentivize usage during time where you can't deal damage to the attacker or where the source of the damage is not the boss - this is a problem for Reprisal in general. Example, you'd avoid using it in Thordan EX/Unreal for Ultimate End and the final AOE rush and prioritize using it on Thordan's stack attack as well as Ancient Quaga, rather than be flexible in usage.

Don't get me wrong, I am not fully opposed, but the dps-optimisation that would result out of this for meta play would desincentivize adequate mitigation planning in favour of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Simple. While depending heavily on raid design, it will lead to decisionmaking to prioritize the use of Shake it Off before all other raid mitigation to get more casts out of Shake it Off for damage over the course of a fight.

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That would heavily depend on whether an extra 280 potency counter before the fight ends is worth more than delaying and losing one cast but catching multiple raidwides under each buff. This would usually be planned around in an optimisation scenario, but if you're talking about people playing greedily, they're much more likely to use the ability where they get to take the most total hits rather than maximise casts, as that would lead to the bigger gain unless there are no multi-hits or multiple raidwides in succession.

As for your other point. We do already have a few defensives that people would rather use during downtime where boss is untargettable, like Deployment Tactics and Passage of Arms. I don't think it would be particularly a problem if the WAR decides to not Shake a downtime mechanic as there are always other options available.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

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Hot take but it was actually fun, and made some mitigation better in certain cases, and some an absolutely no go in others, at least more than it is today. Certainly more interesting than "monkey sees big AoE coming, monkey just pressesr the mit button".

Seeing mechanics of a fight for the first time and using such a mitigator just before white hole and seeing the whole group die to it? idk I find that hilarious and it makes for good memories.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Still wouldn't be enough.
Bw would still be the best short tank cd, Holmgang would still be the best invuln, it would still do the most dps in small group/solo content and Warrior would still be braindead easy to optimise.
I'd remove mitigation from BW and put holmgang's cooldown on 300 seconds as well. That way it would have an actual shortcoming. They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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What I'd do to warriors healing/mitigation is to...
Split it This was how it was balanced in Shadowbringers, obviously flash was used as target healing CD (Which I'm not a fan of)
Have it shared on 25s (Use one the other goes on cooldown too) have one CD be at 15%(8s) + 10%(4s), let this be able to target allies, The Other CD that shares it would be heal on hit(s) lasting for 8s, 400 potency, This Shouldn't be able to target players it should be a selfish self healing tool as warrior shouldn't be able to "heal allies". This should also only heal 400 no matter the amount of enemies, similar to how paladins holy circle doesn't have absurd healing in AOE pulls. Healers should actually have to heal, wall to wall should feel risky.

This would make warrior have strong options but have to Choose how to deal with it, the self healing will likely be better for auto(s) and attacks that are survivable while ur mitigation would be better at harsh busters.

Shake it off should be changed into a AOE mitigation ability, Give AOE Barriers to dark knight, as y'know that makes sense for the other"Magic tank". it's really weird that the berserker is the AOE shield tank with party healing aspects, the identity literally makes zero sense as it stands.

Personally I'm fine with warrior having a short Invul, but Ideally we would make Invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

What I'd do to warriors healing/mitigation is to
Split it This was how it was balanced in shadowbringers, obviously flash was used as target healing CD (Which I'm not a fan of)
Have it shared on 25s (Use one the other goes on coolddown too) have one CD be at 15%(8s) + 10%(4s), let this be able to target allies, The Other CD that shares it would be heal on hit(s) lasting for 8s, 400 potency, This Shouldn't be able to target players it should be a selfish self healing tool as warrior shouldn't be able to "heal allies". This should also only heal 400 no matter the amount of enemies, similar to how paladins holy circle doesn't have absurd healing in aoe pulls. Healers should actually have to heal, wall to wall should feel risky.

This would make warrior have strong options but have to Choose how to deal with it, the self healing will likely be better for auto(s) and attacks that are survivable while ur mitigation would be better at harsh busters.

Shake it off should be changed into a AOE mitigation ability, Give AOE Barriers to dark knight, as y'know that makes sense for the other"Magic tank". it's really weird that the beserker is the AOE shield tank with party healing aspects, the identity literally makes zero sense as it stands.

Personally I'm fine with warrior having a short Invul, but Ideally we would make invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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I'm fine with them having niche differences and different timers, the main issue I have with it is that warrior is already very good at everything and has the 2nd highest dps, If warrior had actual downsides or was a lot more difficult then at least it would have a reason.

The issue with Warrior is that its jack of all trades master of all, because it quite literally does everything with zero down sides, upsides only (being 2nd highest in DPS i count as a upside as u bring two different tanks so its Optimal)

I'm totally fine with higher cooldown invuls, for example Paladin, it should be great at utility and support, but giving it a longer invul on average and not the outright highest DPS (Imo gnb/drk should be currently) makes sense to me, more or less I'd like to reduce that gap between invuls because currently it's too big, I'd do that by making wars longer while shorting PLD's

Holmgang honestly should have been nerfed a long time ago, and completely separate from this conversation really.

Solo Tanking P1 and P2 on content was almost optimal due to how WAR could alternate mits and holmgang on their busters.
Abyssos felt specifically designed against that sort of thing and it was somewhat miserable.

A sane developer would have just made it so Holmgang wasn't always up 3+ times a fight, and lined up perfectly with TB mechanics. Instead they designed the entire tier around the existence of holmgang exclusively, and even then you could still holmgang cheese p8sp2

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Holmgang honestly should have been nerfed a long time ago, and completely separate from this conversation really.

Solo Tanking P1 and P2 on content was almost optimal due to how WAR could alternate mits and holmgang on their busters.
Abyssos felt specifically designed against that sort of thing and it was somewhat miserable.

A sane developer would have just made it so Holmgang wasn't always up 3+ times a fight, and lined up perfectly with TB mechanics. Instead they designed the entire tier around the existence of holmgang exclusively, and even then you could still holmgang cheese p8sp2

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But instead of making the differences actually matter, they gave Shake it off and Equilibrium the heal over time effects to make sure War doesn't have a harder time dealing with mechanics intended to be uncheesable.
Not only that, they then also buffed it's dps. And so now, Warrior is just a literal direct upgrade over Drk and PLD.
They didn't give Dark knight shields on Dark mind or Dark missionary to deal with Harrowing hell though, NAHHHH Warrior NEEDS to be a direct upgrade in every fucking regard.
Downsides and tradeoffs are not something Warrior players can cope with, so we must simply pass them on to Drk players to make War players feel better about their ''job identity'' of being better.
Notice how if you suggest they fix jank in Drk's toolkit, all the War players come out of the woodwork to explain why an unrewarding, mildly annoying mechanic unique to Dark knight is necessary for the jobs to be different.

Remember when Holm was still 6s long and required a target, as well as locking the WAR in place for the duration? How many times have they buffed this thing?

They really should keep a changelog on the FFXIV job page with the patches and dates.

In 5.0, the target requirement was removed and the recast was increased from 180 seconds to 240 seconds.
In 5.1, the duration was increased to 8 seconds.
In 6.0, the duration was increased to 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ideally we would make Invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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I'd go a step further and suggest that there should be a maximum of 1 minute difference between the shortest and longest recasts. I wonder if it would be a better idea to turn invulns into a shared role cooldown, such that activating an invuln activates the cooldown timer on both tanks. That way you'd have access to less uses per fight and would have to use some actual cooldown management for once.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Remember when Holm was still 6s long and required a target, as well as locking the WAR in place for the duration? How many times have they buffed this thing?

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When it didn't even need any in the first place.
Sure 6 seconds couldn't cover every mechanic and the root made it impossible to invuln certain mechanics (actually a blessing in O11S because phys ranged pugs couldn't do the most basic things) but it also allowed Holmgang to be used as knockback immunity and with it's low cooldown it was probably still back up the next time you needed it for a buster.

The only thing Holmgang needed was a fix to the effect dropping off early if your target died.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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The ONLY upside to warriors invuln is it's recast timer. Nobody is celebrating the warrior for staying alive...but then to see it's health drop back down to 1 with only 3 seconds left on the invuln. The weakness is that holmgang just won't let you die more often then any of the other invulns.

Holmgang requires you to drop thrill and/or equal at the same time just so you can get healed up faster. Which can lower amount of mitigation for a buster soon after, or when you really need it.
GNB has that o shit moment to healers, but at least the gunbreaker doesn't lose HP after using it. Just a backwards hallowed.
And DRK's is kind of disgusting imo. 1500 potency heal PER attack...I was like "That's absurd!" when I read those patch notes. They fixed Living Dead with this change.

War does have a good invuln simply because you can use it 3-4 times per pull....other then that it's a great burden to the healers sometimes. The cooldown is fine imo. The weakness to holmgang is that you need healer to get you back to decent HP value.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

The ONLY upside to warriors invuln is it's recast timer. Nobody is celebrating the warrior for staying alive...but then to see it's health drop back down to 1 with only 3 seconds left on the invuln. The weakness is that holmgang just won't let you die more often then any of the other invulns.

Holmgang requires you to drop thrill and/or equal at the same time just so you can get healed up faster. Which can lower amount of mitigation for a buster soon after, or when you really need it.
GNB has that o shit moment to healers, but at least the gunbreaker doesn't lose HP after using it. Just a backwards hallowed.
And DRK's is kind of disgusting imo. 1500 potency heal PER attack...I was like "That's absurd!" when I read those patch notes. They fixed Living Dead with this change.

War does have a good invuln simply because you can use it 3-4 times per pull....other then that it's a great burden to the healers sometimes. The cooldown is fine imo. The weakness to holmgang is that you need healer to get you back to decent HP value.

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WAR can put itself back to safe health levels with equilibrium alone it doesn’t need a healer

If WAR and DRK’s invulns swapped DRK would struggle with WAR’s invuln since it has little self healing but WAR needing to heal itself after the invuln is done is functionally of no concern at all

I honestly feel what WAR needs to get a little bit more identity. It does increased damage during inner release...or a Bleed effect during inner release.

You do more damage, but sustain a bleed or 10% more incoming damage. Whichever the case my be. This would make bloodwhetting, nascent, thrill, equal be much more necessary when bursting.

WAR is taking more damage ever 1 min at the exchange for increased damage. Which would kind of force you to manage your mitigations better so you don't kill yourself.

Or maybe you get a bleed during the off minute wait until inner release comes off cooldown for your 2 min burst. Kind of like Berserk of old with the pacification you would have. You bleed more during inner release until your charges for fell cleave are gone, and back to a bleed during your downtime. So this means WAR is always taking more damage, but gains more damage.

So instead of keeping Storms Eye up....you have to keep a bleed effect rolling constantly. You take more damage, but increase your damage. You have to rely on your bloodwhetting to regain HP, or equal to help with sustain regen, or thrill to increase incoming healing.

High Risk....High Reward gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WAR can put itself back to safe health levels with equilibrium alone it doesn’t need a healer

If WAR and DRK’s invulns swapped DRK would struggle with WAR’s invuln since it has little self healing but WAR needing to heal itself after the invuln is done is functionally of no concern at all

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P12s lazy lasers says otherwise. You have to time holmgang right so it lasts the length of the lasers, and for a few autos after since you get a physical vuln debuff. It rip your HP from you VERY fast, and if your holmgang is gone with that auto follow up....you gonna die unless your healers blast you with healing.

Same with P8s pt. 2 opener. Shared auto tank busters. If you are invulning them you have to time it just right so you have 3-4 seconds left before you get one shot. Healers struggle with that opener of that fight if a WAR is in the pt.

This last tier and the previous tier were kinda of rough on tanks. A lot of double swap tank busters with vulns. Requires kind of perfect swaps with even better timed mitigations. Don't get me wrong....I loved it since playing tank on the first tier was boring as hell with not much outside of P1s with purgation or grace swaps, or P2s making you swap MT/OT completely for certain portions of the fight so it was an either or busters, shared (or invuln) but nothing scary. P3s was just formulaic in it's design with just double busters...no swaps. P4s pt1 and p2 was kind of like P2s where the tanks would swap busters, but they would just take over for certain portions. Pinax might have been the only problem as far as tank responsibility goes.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

P12s lazy lasers says otherwise. You have to time holmgang right so it lasts the length of the lasers, and for a few autos after since you get a physical vuln debuff. It rip your HP from you VERY fast, and if your holmgang is gone with that auto follow up....you gonna die unless your healers blast you with healing.

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That’s functionally one example in a laundry list of EW examples where you just pressed holmgang and forgot the mechanic entirely and the example is functionally cheesing a mechanic because of holmgang anyway

99% of busters this expansion WAR can ignore with holmgang then heal itself

I agree it's cheese. And there are MORE then 1 example to use holmgang throughout all the savage tiers in endwalker.

I would also say I never used Holmgang unless it was deliberately planned. Most often for busters it was vengeance and thrill. Maybe an equal afterwards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Why even bring up the fact that Holm needs looked at...if it's used for cheese anyway? WAR has everything it needs to survive.

99% of the reason we use invulns IS to cheese. Except for P10s where that is 100% needed as it's a wild charge. That mech was a nightmare, but fun.

I guess I don't understand the need to change invulns since from a standpoint of fair...they are pretty much the same despite stylistically different.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I agree it's cheese. And there are MORE then 1 example to use holmgang throughout all the savage tiers in endwalker.

I would also say I never used Holmgang unless it was deliberately planned. Most often for busters it was vengeance and thrill. Maybe an equal afterwards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Why even bring up the fact that Holm needs looked at...if it's used for cheese anyway? WAR has everything it needs to survive.

99% of the reason we use invulns IS to cheese. Except for P10s where that is 100% needed as it's a wild charge. That mech was a nightmare, but fun.

I guess I don't understand the need to change invulns since from a standpoint of fair...they are pretty much the same despite stylistically different.

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Because the CD on WAR’s means that it can either cancel way more busters or cheese and then still cancel a later buster anyway

The CD on WAR’s invuln is too short and it warps the tank mechanics around it, it’s very mild weakness of needing a healer in some circumstances doesn’t change how overpowered it is in terms of it being able to warp savage around it. The nerf needs to be to its CD, not to anything about how it works

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because the CD on WAR’s means that it can either cancel way more busters or cheese and then still cancel a later buster anyway

The CD on WAR’s invuln is too short and it warps the tank mechanics around it, it’s very mild weakness of needing a healer in some circumstances doesn’t change how overpowered it is in terms of it being able to warp savage around it. The nerf needs to be to its CD, not to anything about how it works

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So this is why we have homogenization.

What's next? PLD's Passive healing is to much?

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So this is why we have homogenization.

What's next? PLD's Passive healing is to much?

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There is a difference between homogenisation and bending entire savage tiers around one tanks overpowered CD that has literally zero downsides

The closest example would be macrocosmos warping the heal check in P3 but that was specifically because of how the mechanic calculated damage and how macrocosmos works, meanwhile WAR can do that with literally anything every 4 minutes it’s absurd

The other option would be to leave holmgang as it is and then nerf everything else about WAR and make that its niche but they don’t seem to do that either. Fixing one tanks overwhelming dominance in every field is not homogenisation

And for the record yes PLD has too much healing, I would fully support nerfing it, it doesn’t need a heal on all magic spells, a regen on holy Shelton and intervention and a heal on veil even ignoring clemency

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is a difference between homogenisation and bending entire savage tiers around one tanks overpowered CD that has literally zero downsides

The closest example would be macrocosmos warping the heal check in P3 but that was specifically because of how the mechanic calculated damage and how macrocosmos works, meanwhile WAR can do that with literally anything every 4 minutes it’s absurd

The other option would be to leave holmgang as it is and then nerf everything else about WAR and make that its niche but they don’t seem to do that either. Fixing one tanks overwhelming dominance in every field is not homogenisation

And for the record yes PLD has too much healing, I would fully support nerfing it, it doesn’t need a heal on all magic spells, a regen on holy Shelton and intervention and a heal on veil even ignoring clemency

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I'm starting to think you don't main a tank or primarily tank in savage. Because if SE did what you wanted....then each tank would literally play the same...like literally. You could bring w/e you wanted. Might as well change PLD/WAR/GNB/DRK names to just "tank".

Because what you think is "overpowered" is different then what I think is overpowered. Hallowed Ground is OP....like zero downsides....I use it...I don't die....and I get to keep ALL my HP....no healer needed.

TBN is over powered...use it...negate ton's of damage, gain a increased free damage button.

Heart of Corundom is overpowered....like a mini excog on a VERY short cooldown.

I think each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it's how you address those strengths and weaknesses is how a savage group needs to overcome. I know for a fact that I can do P12's on PLD or WAR....and my healers have to adjust...it's not a ton...but they have to address WAR's weakness of lesser self sustain then PLD's nutty every 20 seconds I can heal myself. But the fact is....my healers KNOW that as PLD....I don't need much baby sitting. WAR...they might have to toss me a regen or small shield every once in a while.