Politics

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think there's one more consideration to make. As a shard of Azem, we're descended from a member of an elite, nepotistic circle of tyrannical despots who unilaterally made decisions on behalf of the rest of the world for thousands of years. From a roleplaying perspective, we need more opportunities to lean into that. There is a fantastic opportunity for us to build a clique of powerful friends that goes on to form a world government for the entire planet, ushering the shards into a new era of prosperity under our iron fist. Now that the Scions and Ascians are no more, we finally have the potential to make that dream into a reality. Consider the following:

Hildibrand

Vanhudi: Let's get straight to the point: I want you at my side. With the Vaunted Warrior of Light as the template for my clone army, we could conquer this and every other land in creation!

> 'That... that's not a bad idea, actually.'

Hildibrand: 'Ah... ha ha ha! A splendid jest, my friend. A splendid and... not-at-all-indicative-of-suppressed-megalomaniacal-ambitions jest... yes?'

<long silence>

(Lv.90, Gentlemen at Heart)

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I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here? Because that sounds way outside the roleplaying scope of this narrative.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Mamool Ja mercenaries have been in Limsa Lominsa for 5 years and some have even broken away to make their own society in Vylbrand, butchered the locals to make their own castle, and actively assault adventurers. I don’t believe we’re going to Tural to do the same thing and the idea of such is flawed.

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Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

I think the bigger question in this debate is: 'So what?'

You wanted choice, and now you have it. If you want to forcibly create a textual reading where you head off to Tural as kingmaker and conqueror, all the power to you. All this sanctimonious moral posturing surely gets tiresome after a while. If you've spent the past story arc dreaming about being an Ascian edgelord, then surely this is the golden opportunity that you've always been waiting for. If this is meant to be a vacation, then let it be an evil vacation. Let it all out.

I'm personally disappointed that we only get to choose from four candidates. If I'm going to install a proxy dictator to rule over Tural in my stead, surely I should have a degree of choice in the matter. I'm personally leaning towards Ezel II.

If the flying pig is not an option, then at least let us re-glamour our chosen despot, like the custom delivery system allows. After all, who do you think dressed Aymeric up as a blue elephant in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here?

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Irony, mixed with caricature. I'm only mad north-northwest. When the wind blows southerly, I can tell a hawk from a handsaw.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

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Lore is a relatively small community, where some interpersonal interactions have developed over multiple years. You're observant to notice that it's unusual for someone to have such a strong opinion of someone with whom they've never interacted with before. If you watch closely, you'll also see that there's also a recurring trend to the target.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here? Because that sounds way outside the roleplaying scope of this narrative.




Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

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Plot twist: Pip is the warmonger

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

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I thought about that as I typed that but let's open up the book and see what it says-

WAIT A SECOND.

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Originally Posted by EE2

Molaa Ja Ja's purpose for crossing the seas to Eorzea was to win glory and strengthen his claim to the throne of the Autarch, ruler of all Mamool Ja. Upon arriving, however, he struggled to find employment for his warband, and in a bid to make a name in this foreign land, he took the drastic step of capturing a piece of it.

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"2-headed Mamool Ja ruling warbands and fighting each other over who will be Autarch" is old retconned lore, along with "Mamook" or "Mamool Ja" being the name of the nation, but it would be hilarious if we get all the way there to find out we already killed him.

I would expect that the 4(3?) princes/princesses are on the poster and the only unknowns to us are the Miqo in the white coat, the Mamool Ja at the bottom, and the mysterious Hyur on the top. Either they're all claimants, or one or two are not important (or alive) enough to be on the poster and the other characters are just other important characters.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

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I would actually find that funny.

WoL whispers to G'raha: Is this like the 12 where we're not supposed to admit we've killed this guy?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

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I will not be surprised if that is the case.

WoL has done so many things already, it is hard to not have accidently resolve something before it happens.

I am more curious about how the Golden City is going to play into this though.

I am guessing one of the challenge for the throne may end up being to find the Golden City and claim whatever item the candidates need to get to win their tournament.

Either way, Wuk Lamat is acting as more than the person we are obviously going to support in the tournament for the throne. She is also our sponsor for adventuring into Tural to find the Golden City which we always have in each expansion when enter a new region. Though I do notice our sponsors tend to be involved in Politics most of the time.

WoL has been lucky so far with always getting Sponsors into new regions since those sponsors always cover a lot of basic needs for WoL where most adventurers had to pay out of their pockets or get permission directly from the Adventurer Guild.

At this point, it feels like every new expansion we should expect someone with political influence sponsoring the WoL for traveling into new regions since these guys always provide WoL his/her always free Inn rooms.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

Finally, as I believe I have spoken about your behavior once before, I really must thank you for providing evidence backing up my claims without me needing to dig through old messages prior to that initial post. I do not like wasting my time with that. You should probably look that post over again and familiarize yourself with the behaviors I outlined.

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See, here's the thing that gets me about you: You haven't. You've alluded to me having allegedly unacceptable behavior, but when I've asked for specifics (which I've done several times) you have been completely silent. In fact you've only left me more confused, because you're demonstrably okay with the things that I'm actually not okay that I've said.

I don't expect you to come back. But if you do, could you enlighten me?


As to the actual subject of the thread, I think it's important to remember--and something the people being negative about this seemed to miss or ignore--that our first priority in Dawntrail has been explicitly stated not to be 'immediately go and throw hands'; rather, it's to go and gather information, learn what's actually going on. It's actually a normal thing for the Scions to do, it's just rarely been us doing it. It was normally Thancred's job, although we did see Tataru and Alphinaud try their hand at it at times.

I think that's important because it shows in multiple ways that they're conscious of not going in blind; not only do they want to avoid making a problem worse through not listening, but G'raha also seemed conscious of the notion we could be getting given incomplete or misleading information that gets us manipulated. (Fitting that he, of all people, is aware of that possibility.) I think it's a given that we'll be participating in the rite, just by game design virtue of 'you don't tell players abut a cool thing and then not let them do it', but I think our reason to is unknown right now.

My guess, we'll find something out that forces our hand. Maybe that the warmonger is even more prepared than we first thought, that the Golden City is more than just pretty, or that there's a familiar face outside of Thurianger that we can't in our right minds let go uncountered. ...Granted, the list of candidates for that second one is pretty small unless you go into side-content, but there's still people. If we saw Nero or any of the other Garlean Empire tech-heads (who are most of the ones still alive), we'd probably get involved at least initially because we want to stop them.

I think we'll enter on the side of Wuk Lamat, because otherwise why make her the first one we met, but our motivation will not be 'because Wuk Lamat asked'.

To me the perspective, that we only help Wuk Lamat because it is ostensibly our interests that we try to satisfy first and foremost, really doesn't capture the (sub)text of the (short) 6.5.5 quest line.

Imo the story made it clear that it's the compassion for the people in Tural that motivates us (in classic hero/main character fashion - you can say this is cheesy and clichéd and yes, it probably is, but it's most likely our motivation nonetheless) because *they*'d be the ones who suffer first if they were to be dragged into a war.

In my eyes it was Wuk Lamat's strong reaction and her desire to avert the damage *to her own people* that was established as the primary argument by the narrative, which was also underscored by Erenville's supporting statement.

The latter is quite important imo because he serves as a grounded and down-to-earth contrast to Wuk Lamat's hotheadedness. If even someone as calm, smart and cunning as Erenville, who we can assume has the well-being of both the people of his old home Tural and his new home Eorzea on his mind, then it lends a lot more credibility to Wuk Lamat's endeavor.

If we are focusing on the argument of our interests, then it also has to be said that the warmonger is eyeing Garlemald first - a country that for the longest time has been *our* colonizer and brutal antagonist - so (from a purely selfish perspective - which I don't condone, bear with me for a second) the part of Eorzea we have personal ties (and thus a personal attachment) to wouldn't be the one to take the (first) hit of his aggressions. (There would be legitimate concern though that a warmongering nation is encroaching on our boarders and endangering our people, too, if they attack Garlemald.)

At the same time Garlemald is a broken country that has just started to process of rebuilding itself.

Don't get me wrong, I really didn't like how they handled (post-EW) Garlemald but as a matter of fact another war would be devastating for the people there. Protecting them from war is a very legitimate concern. It's not exploitative of Tural, it's literally just the humane act of acknowledging the Garlean common folk's right to safety from an act of aggression that they didn't start and would be *forced onto them*.

Lastly, as others have pointed out, preventing war in Eorzea is a legitimate reason to *support* Wuk Lamat in something she wants to do *for her people* anways.

We are not instrumentalizing her. We are not instigating her to do anything.


I disagree with the premise that "acting in our own interest" is inherently colonialist irrespective of the context.

It's a bit ironic to me that we are supposedly the colonizers when the warmonger's interests...are quite literally...colonization. *He* wants to go to other countries to subjugate them. That is colonization.

Trying to prevent that is again not exploiting Tural in a colonialist way.

If our interest is "not being attacked and forced into a war that would bring lots of suffering for our people" then preventing that war - a war that, again, is also *not* in the interest of the Turali commoners it seems - is a sensible concern.

It's a *reactive* attempt to ensure intercontinental peace by answering the call of *someone from that nation who wants to ensure peace for her people*, not a proactive plan to install a ruler that acts as our proxy or metaphorical arm to enforce a broader official Eorzean geopolitical agenda and establish any kind of Eorzean dominance or hegemony in the region. Nor is there any desire to get access to their resourcers, their land or anything.

It is literally just about peace *in Tural* first and foremost, and about peace in Eorzea as a consequence.

Peace benefits everyone. A senseless war, such as the one the warmonger heir tries to start for his own selfish interests, does the opposite.

Framing the collaborative effort between individuals from Tural and Eorzea to maintain peace for both continents' people as an act of colonization and a one-sided installment of *our* primary interests is something I can't agree with.

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I can agree that the writing is very clumsy though (nuanced political writing isn't exactly FF14's strong suit in my opinion tbh...).

Because yeah, it's very rushed that we decide to go there in such a short period of time and the whole arc of "getting to know each other on a hunt" felt rather random and not really effective (though Erenville vouching for her really does help). I place the blame on the time constraint that came with their poor planning of having to cramp the set-up for Dawntrail into a 0.0.5 sub-patch. I wish they had set up Dawntrail during the entire post EW patch phase but I digress.

And I also agree that it might very well be the case that there is more to the story and that the warmongering sibling is a red herring. So it makes sense that we are cautious and observe first, but we can only observe for ourselves and form our own opinion if we actually go to Tural. Going to Tural in itself seems warranted to me. If there is the risk of war then it makes sense that we take it seriously, try to actually assess the risk and figure out if Wuk Lamat's claims are true to prevent harm in case they are.

So in short, unsatisfying, rushed writing that doesn't capture political nuances? Absolutely. Colonialization? No, I really disagree.

I do think we could have had a more cautious "I'll come to Tural but I'm not agreeing to help you yet" option when we speak to Wuk Lamat and say we'll come with her. Otherwise it feels like either the WoL has pushed doubts aside and is all-in on helping her, or else is pretending to be all-in while keeping their true opinion hidden, where I would have liked the option to be more open about having doubts and still potentially saying no once we get the full story.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I do think we could have had a more cautious "I'll come to Tural but I'm not agreeing to help you yet" option when we speak to Wuk Lamat and say we'll come with her. Otherwise it feels like either the WoL has pushed doubts aside and is all-in on helping her, or else is pretending to be all-in while keeping their true opinion hidden, where I would have liked the option to be more open about having doubts and still potentially saying no once we get the full story.

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I agree. I also wish we could go there without agreeing to help a stranger win the throne. I mean Estinien just hopped on a boat, I wished we could have moved forward in a way that seemed more measured.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

*snip*

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Every argument that we have to put this random person in charge of a country and it's army for peace in our time ignores that not only do we not know any of her policies on anything, there are two other contestants. I'm sure all these people will be super grateful when we show up and install their leader for them based on "well, she asked."

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I can agree that the writing is very clumsy though (nuanced political writing isn't exactly FF14's strong suit in my opinion tbh...).

Because yeah, it's very rushed that we decide to go there in such a short period of time and the whole arc of "getting to know each other on a hunt" felt rather random and not really effective (though Erenville vouching for her really does help). I place the blame on the time constraint that came with their poor planning of having to cramp the set-up for Dawntrail into a 0.0.5 sub-patch. I wish they had set up Dawntrail during the entire post EW patch phase but I digress.

So in short, unsatisfying, rushed writing that doesn't capture political nuances? Absolutely. Colonialization? No, I really disagree.

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The previously poorly executed political storylines and the fact that the writers are so hastily trying to distance themselves from all existing vaguely political narratives is what makes me believe that the succession contest is going to either be a nonissue or immediately pushed to the side for 80-90% of the expansion. I don't want to spoil the Endwalker role quests in their entirety, but all five of them and the Role Master quest had an air of frantic housekeeping to address any remaining cultural divisions so they can close the shutters on Eorzea and her allies for the foreseeable future. Not what I would have liked, but it seems it's where we are. I imagine it's one of the reasons Bozja got shelved with that massive hook left open at the end, too, and Garlemald is by far the worst example, as you alluded elsewhere in your post. I want to hope that this is a tacit acknowledgement that political intrigue isn't FFXIV's strongest suit, and that all those unsatisfying conclusions to long arcs weren't to just trade them in for another mediocre matters-of-state story.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I do think we could have had a more cautious "I'll come to Tural but I'm not agreeing to help you yet" option when we speak to Wuk Lamat and say we'll come with her. Otherwise it feels like either the WoL has pushed doubts aside and is all-in on helping her, or else is pretending to be all-in while keeping their true opinion hidden, where I would have liked the option to be more open about having doubts and still potentially saying no once we get the full story.

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I really thought that after the chat with G'raha the ultimate conclusion was going to be "I'll come along with you, but we're going for Krile first", especially since Wuk Lamat didn't really give any indication that there was a ton of urgency to give her our answer immediately.

Even though yes the WoL is a member of a Grand Company that is very rarely ever brought up by most people. The only time it does is by members of said Grand Company. And even then it's mostly an "Oh yeah, I forgot that you're X rank of Y Grand Company. Anyway how about you hand out some soup?"

I also would have liked it if we could have expressed our learyness of wanting to go there just to help Wuk Lamat even if Erenville vouches for her. The WoL is going there because we were invited and asked to help with Wuk Lamat's claim to the throne. I'm sure wanting to go there and find out how warmongery the one claimant is part of our agreement to go there. The twins are going there for research purposes in hopes they learn how a multicultural nation goes about keeping the peace amongst other things in hopes that they'll be able to help Garlemald. Krile is going there to figure out who sent a letter and why it mentions the fabled city of Gold. Thancred and Urianger are going most likely at the behest of the Miqo'te brother. Which just leaves the 4th claimant being an unknown.

Estinien is going there cause he has gotten a case of wanderlust and probably doesn't even know about the fight for the throne. We don't even know how or why Y'shtola will get roped into any of this and so far it looks like G'Raha is also staying behind for now and if you poke him is looking to find ways of fattening his purse. Either by doing treasure maps or some other way. I for one get the feeling that they will be trying to use 7.0 as a slow shedding of the cast. As all the Twins seem to have on their minds is how do we help our new bestie Jullus and their people get back on their feet and continue the ball rolling. While we all have assumed Y'shtola will step out of the light once she learns a less expensive way to shard travel. With Thancred and Urianger being the traveling odd couple that we might run into from time to time.

I think it's helpful that Wuk Lamat is clearly pretty genuine and honest. We've seen how bad she is at lying, after all. We clearly don't have the full picture and we've got the text of 'try to figure out what's going on before getting involved', but by both Erenville's vouching and our experience of Wuk herself, she clearly isn't the reason we don't have it. Partially that's because she's our human(oid) face of Tural, but I think it helps give a bit of soft assurance.

We're inevitably allying with Wuk Lamat... but we can also be confident that she's not manipulating us, and that she's going to be just as mad as we are when we learn who is.

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Originally Posted by Vallavia

The previously poorly executed political storylines and the fact that the writers are so hastily trying to distance themselves from all existing vaguely political narratives is what makes me believe that the succession contest is going to either be a nonissue or immediately pushed to the side for 80-90% of the expansion. I don't want to spoil the Endwalker role quests in their entirety, but all five of them and the Role Master quest had an air of frantic housekeeping to address any remaining cultural divisions so they can close the shutters on Eorzea and her allies for the foreseeable future. Not what I would have liked, but it seems it's where we are. I imagine it's one of the reasons Bozja got shelved with that massive hook left open at the end, too, and Garlemald is by far the worst example, as you alluded elsewhere in your post. I want to hope that this is a tacit acknowledgement that political intrigue isn't FFXIV's strongest suit, and that all those unsatisfying conclusions to long arcs weren't to just trade them in for another mediocre matters-of-state story.



I really thought that after the chat with G'raha the ultimate conclusion was going to be "I'll come along with you, but we're going for Krile first", especially since Wuk Lamat didn't really give any indication that there was a ton of urgency to give her our answer immediately.

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I say Aymeric had the better development when it came to understanding him as a political leader. We got a good amount of time to understand his personality during 2.X, then we understand his political stance in Ishgard through 3.0, and we finish off his rise to being Ishgard current leader in 3.X which during this time he provided concerns about being picked as the leader with among concerns involving people's views of seeing him being maybe a puppet for the Eorzea Alliance or that him taking up position as the new leader of Ishgard may see it as another attempt for political power between family members. Of course in the end the majority of Ishgard voted for him as their new leader.

Hien on the other hand, we never did get much time to know him as a person, political leader, and his stance on how he will handle his leadership long term with any potential concerns he may have. It was rather rush to get him to being the new leader for Doma due to the Plan for causing a split in Garlean's Forces so we have a advantage in Eorzea taking back Ala Mhigo. However, as we have seen in Post-Stormblood events, he has been free to develop his country the way he intended without any outside influence. Of course the major problem he is dealing with mostly comes from the people who are far too use to the old ways of things and events involving the people of Doma who were conscripted into the Garlean Forces since the people have mixed feelings for those who became conscripted into the Garlean Army returning to Doma.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think it's helpful that Wuk Lamat is clearly pretty genuine and honest. We've seen how bad she is at lying, after all. We clearly don't have the full picture and we've got the text of 'try to figure out what's going on before getting involved', but by both Erenville's vouching and our experience of Wuk herself, she clearly isn't the reason we don't have it. Partially that's because she's our human(oid) face of Tural, but I think it helps give a bit of soft assurance.

We're inevitably allying with Wuk Lamat... but we can also be confident that she's not manipulating us, and that she's going to be just as mad as we are when we learn who is.

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While she is open and honest, she does give me the feeling that she is "the last person the people of Tural will pick as a leader" trope type character. She does show some of those classic signs being fearful during certain moments that can end up fatal, probably not the smartest of the candidates, way too open for the more subtle game of politics, and way too ready to start a fight.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, the 6.x lead writer (or writers) is completely unknown, save that they're working under the same overall system and structure.

My gut says it was a Daichi Hiroi story, because it generally seems to fit what he seems to put in, but that's just vibe. And given that going by 6.0's credits there's forty people that could be called 'writers', it's entirely possible that we just won't have any idea because it could be that unseen rest of the iceberg.

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If you sit through the 6.X credits, Hiroi is listed as the lead writer, with Ishikawa and Oda in supporting roles.

A quick Google says Hiroi and Oda are collaborating on Dawntrail's Main Scenario, or Hiroi is otherwise going it alone. (Direction, not literally writing the whole thing.)

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Will you please stop discussing me as a person. It's weird. If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

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I addressed all of your talking points, kiddo!

tl;dr: The Scions as an organization no longer exist, the PC is going to Tural as a freelance mercenary, the contest not only allows but encourages it, Wuk Lamat has shown no ill intent, and Erenville has nothing bad to say about her (even if her boorish manners exasperate him).

We're not a representative of the Eorzean government; we are, at best, a mid-level Grand Company officer acting without orders, and the story is framed very much as us acting in the capacity of a freelance mercenary. The "colonizer" argument makes zero sense; we aren't going there to prepare Tural for colonization or install a puppet ruler, but to support a rightful claimant to the throne who asked us to help her in a culturally appropriate and permissible manner. We have no clue what her policies are, but given Wuk Lamat's exuberant and outgoing personality and condemnation of warmongering I have a very hard time believing she would be a bad choice, inexperience with ruling notwithstanding.

As a freelance mercenary, the PC is free to support (or not support) any claimant to the throne they choose. Furthermore, we have no idea what this contest actually entails, and however powerful the PC may be their martial might isn't likely to be enough to win right out; if that were the case there wouldn't be much of a story.

I... don't know how or why you think the PC acting in the capacity of a freelance mercenary constitutes colonization. I'm genuinely confused. The rest is just paranoia.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I addressed all of your talking points, kiddo!

tl;dr: The Scions as an organization no longer exist, the PC is going to Tural as a freelance mercenary, the contest not only allows but encourages it, Wuk Lamat has shown no ill intent, and Erenville has nothing bad to say about her (even if her boorish manners exasperate him).

We're not a representative of the Eorzean government; we are, at best, a mid-level Grand Company officer acting without orders, and the story is framed very much as us acting in the capacity of a freelance mercenary. The "colonizer" argument makes zero sense; we aren't going there to prepare Tural for colonization or install a puppet ruler, but to support a rightful claimant to the throne who asked us to help her. We have no clue what her policies are, but given Wuk Lamat's exuberant and outgoing personality and condemnation of warmongering I have a very hard time believing she would be a bad choice, inexperience with ruling notwithstanding.

As a freelance mercenary, the PC is free to support (or not support) any claimant to the throne they choose. Furthermore, we have no idea what this contest actually entails, and however powerful the PC may be their martial might isn't likely to be enough to win right out; if that were the case there wouldn't be much of a story.

I... don't know how or why you think the PC acting in the capacity of a freelance mercenary constitutes colonization. I'm genuinely confused. The rest is just paranoia.

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They see it that way cause points to their last reply to Mikko Venat did a bad that's so bad that they're allowing it to affect them to the point where they can't even think about trying to catch the Ruby Dargon (or whatever they set out to do in game) without going oh my law my WoL is an accomplice in Venat's doing a bad. You know the part of a story that normally sets up and isn't explored much if at all by the writers to explain why the world is the way it is at the time frame the story you are reading, watching or playing through is happening. That for the most part is normally again not explored as that is probably the part of the world building that has the most flaws and holes in it. As if one were to do so you will have a high chance of finding out that all the smart leaders of the past and or the present (depending on how far back the TDLR set up happened before the story takes place) were very stupid for dumb reasons. That even if you have qualms about you knew had to happen in some fashion for again the present story you are experiencing to take place.

Unless its some side content, the colonialism is probably going to be from in-fighting from the various peoples who have been experiencing peace, maybe some foreigner eorezans who are looking to make a quick buck. Like it would be a real kick the dog moment if evil npcs go after the Whalaqee's Lapis Canyon.

As that blue mage book in 6.55 might be a red herring, or it could be foreshadowing. Of a book talking about one of the natives to Tural, how this tribe of natives highly value nature, how they view the aforementioned Lapis Canyon as sacred when its just one giant ceruleum deposit.

And it wouldn't be the first time as in the 1-50 quests you do deal with that as a blue mage. But it will be much like the Bard (Song of Oblivion) or Dancer (Dance of the Damned) was for endwalker. And as a blue mage you also have to deal with a mining company that wants to use you as hired muscled. Follow with me as it will make sense.

After all ceruleum is a highly valued liquid found in the earth and its also highly flammable. Which would be equivalent to black oil in our world which is known as "black gold". So one could say that ceruleum is "blue gold". While I use the world gold here, I think its evident that the City of Gold is seperate from this and its Sector 9. So that what I am getting at here, is this location:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/a6a84c06...288ddce9ec.jpg

After all it looks like a boom town for a "blue gold" rush, with train tracks and ceruleum smoke stacks. Even a bar with eorezan writing, which we already know is distinctly foreign compared to the Tural writing.

https://i.imgur.com/ui15uA9.png

After all if the story is about how one of Wuk Lamat's siblings is an ego-manical powerhungry dictator who wants the throne to go wage war with the desolated land of garlemald, what would be the reason other than revenge? Ceruleum and Garlean Tech. And what better way to show how bad a person is how they will exploit their own and land people to amass that kind of military might.

Or it could just be some eorezans who are entirely seperate from the plot, maybe greedy ul'dah lalafells from a mining company.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

[...]and way too ready to start a fight.

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While not entirely related, I am interested to see more about Wuk Lamat's relationship with violence. She's definitely a proud warrior (both lowercase and capitalized), and definitely someone who likes a good fight... but she's also here entirely to avoid someone declaring war. There's definitely some interesting complexity to be had here, that we've only seen the tip of.

My guess is that she might actually be fairly inexperienced at violence to a greater end, for a purpose beyond base survival or the social element of sparring and hunting. Which, rather sadly, would be something that we and the twins could provide some wisdom on.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Even a bar with eorezan writing, which we already know is distinctly foreign compared to the Tural writing.

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I thought Wuk Lamat said something along the lines of Tural adopting Eorzean as a unifying language between all of the different people that make up the country so that no one native language or culture dominates the others. Harmony between the local peoples is achieved by adopting a foreign script/tongue for inter-tribal communication. I don't believe that the bar sign necessarily means Eorzeans are directly involved but it's still a possibility. Just as I am still interested in how distinctly US-ish the aesthetic of Xak Tural is compared to Yok Tural though and if it has anything to do with Limsa Lominsa's influence during the initial exploration 80 years ago or Merlwyb's recent reestablished contact starting 20 years ago.


On a side note, "Yok" is obviously "South" and "Xak" is obviously "North". "Wuk" seems very similar to those and it wouldn't be unusual to name such an important character something symbolic so I wonder if "Wuk" is "West". I wonder if that would also mean that "Vik" or Vek" is "East".

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I thought Wuk Lamat said something along the lines of Tural adopting Eorzean as a unifying language between all of the different people that make up the country so that no one native language or culture dominates the others. Harmony between the local peoples is achieved by adopting a foreign script/tongue for inter-tribal communication. I don't believe that the bar sign necessarily means Eorzeans are directly involved but it's still a possibility. Just as I am still interested in how distinctly US-ish the aesthetic of Xak Tural is compared to Yok Tural though and if it has anything to do with Limsa Lominsa's influence during the initial exploration 80 years ago or Merlwyb's recent reestablished contact starting 20 years ago.


On a side note, "Yok" is obviously "South" and "Xak" is obviously "North". "Wuk" seems very similar to those and it wouldn't be unusual to name such an important character something symbolic so I wonder if "Wuk" is "West". I wonder if that would also mean that "Vik" or Vek" is "East".

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Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

I lean towards it being foreigners as in the 6.55 there is book on the origns of blue magic. One of the interesting curiosities about it is the author taught the whalaqee tribe the eorezan tongue in exchange for magic training and living among them. Which would point to Martyn, as the author refers to blue magic as a "noble magic" as Whastrach didn't value it. Another quirk of the book is that the term blue magic didn't exist before in the "common tongue", so the whalaqee of the new world have a different word for the same magic.

EDIT: Obviously for us the player foreign language is a non-issue as we have the echo which allows us to understand all sorts of things. And the reason for the blue mage talk is to show that any usage of a more common language is more of a recent invention that eorezans brought over.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

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There is also potential for the Eorzean text to be early-concept placeholder text and it will be updated to Turali for the final version.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There is also potential for the Eorzean text to be early-concept placeholder text and it will be updated to Turali for the final version.

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I mean that is also true, the picture of the bar even has that as a disclaimer.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

I lean towards it being foreigners as in the 6.55 there is book on the origns of blue magic. One of the interesting curiosities about it is the author taught the whalaqee tribe the eorezan tongue in exchange for magic training and living among them. Which would point to Martyn, as the author refers to blue magic as a "noble magic" as Whastrach didn't value it. Another quirk of the book is that the term blue magic didn't exist before in the "common tongue", so the whalaqee of the new world have a different word for the same magic.

EDIT: Obviously for us the player foreign language is a non-issue as we have the echo which allows us to understand all sorts of things. And the reason for the blue mage talk is to show that any usage of a more common language is more of a recent invention that eorezans brought over.

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I rewatched the cutscene and now I'm not sure how close or distant Turali is from Eorzean based on what Wuk said but the language change was "some time ago" which I took as being when Tuliyollal became a nation 80 years ago:

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Wuk Lamat: Given how culturally diverse Tuliyollal is, it was decided some time ago that a common language was needed.
Wuk Lamat: But instead of elevating an existing tongue, and its speakers, above all others, we looked to those widely spoken overseas and created an altogether new one.
Wuk Lamat: These similarities to your common tongue also make it quite easy to communicate in these situations, no?
Wuk Lamat: This letter, however, is entirely in Eorzean. If Father had written this, it would have been in Turali.

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We know Ketenramm, a Lominsan, was bouncing around the continent right at the same time Gulool Ja Ja unified the region under Tuliyollal so he's probably the genesis point of the language. Wuk Lamal also has no problem communicating with us, same with all of the Mamool Ja we've ran into at this point. I think it's still a toss-up as to whether the 1 word we see is an Eorzean loanword on a sign in a fully Turali town or if Eorzeans are directly involved there. I got the feeling that the whole ceruleum fiasco with the Whalaqee was a one-time thing since everyone was hyper-focused on their land specifically instead of anywhere else with ceruleum, but I wouldn't put it passed the writers to take old lore and milk it more than it needs to be.

This also brings me back to the multiple background Miqo'te in the Dawntrail trailer. Their clothes look Eorzean, but we know Wuk Lamat has a Miqo'te brother so they could be Eorzean-influenced people from Xak Tural since that goes with the whole Arizona vibe.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I rewatched the cutscene and now I'm not sure how close or distant Turali is from Eorzean based on what Wuk said but the language change was "some time ago" which I took as being when Tuliyollal became a nation 80 years ago:


We know Ketenramm, a Lominsan, was bouncing around the continent right at the same time Gulool Ja Ja unified the region under Tuliyollal so he's probably the genesis point of the language. Wuk Lamal also has no problem communicating with us, same with all of the Mamool Ja we've ran into at this point. I think it's still a toss-up as to whether the 1 word we see is an Eorzean loanword on a sign in a fully Turali town or if Eorzeans are directly involved there. I got the feeling that the whole ceruleum fiasco with the Whalaqee was a one-time thing since everyone was hyper-focused on their land specifically instead of anywhere else with ceruleum, but I wouldn't put it passed the writers to take old lore and milk it more than it needs to be.

This also brings me back to the multiple background Miqo'te in the Dawntrail trailer. Their clothes look Eorzean, but we know Wuk Lamat has a Miqo'te brother so they could be Eorzean-influenced people from Xak Tural since that goes with the whole Arizona vibe.

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Right, and the fact they have in those 3 quests the nature of the language, written and spoken, and then also throw in the blue mage book to further emphasis the language barrier suggests its more a recent thing to have a more unified language. Which the only representative you ever speak to of the Whalaqee tribe, so far is Ceadda, who is a young boy and speaks fluently. Which we don't know how long Martyn was with them for teaching them a language. So it creates a "chicken or egg" scenario. If its pre-Martyn then the teaching of the language would be easier for him because of the Turali language being very similar for talking. If it occurs during his stay it would start off hard to teach but become easier over time with the new Turali language. If its after, then it would have just been doing it entirely from scratch where a good deal of time is just trying to teach them a language.

The clothes thing is an easy thing to dismiss as its easier to get one culture to wear a shirt than it is to understand a whole other language.

Oh right the letter. Which is entirely in eorezan, possibly dictated as Wuk Lamat suggests. Which begs the same question of the chicken or the egg. Was the dictation done with the new turali language, or was it done with the old language and someone who acted as a translator. Which as one might guess we don't have an answer to.

EDIT: Maybe there is something in the japanese version of the language? Different words used for a similar yet different context? For both Wuk Lamat and the blue book.

EDIT 2: So yes the author of the blue book, in japanese, taught the Whalaqee the "common tongue". Its not an english-only thing. There are other quirks in the book, similar yet different to the english version, but that is a different tangent. So potentially there is something in Wuk Lamat's text in japanese.

EDIT 3: Confirmed in japanese, each tribe over there spoke a different tongue. Also the Turali language was created based on "commonly used words around the globe" which made it easier to communicate. Also still the same about the letter being written by someone else.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Right, and the fact they have in those 3 quests the nature of the language, written and spoken, and then also throw in the blue mage book to further emphasis the language barrier suggests its more a recent thing to have a more unified language. Which the only representative you ever speak to of the Whalaqee tribe, so far is Ceadda, who is a young boy and speaks fluently. Which we don't know how long Martyn was with them for teaching them a language. So it creates a "chicken or egg" scenario. If its pre-Martyn then the teaching of the language would be easier for him because of the Turali language being very similar for talking. If it occurs during his stay it would start off hard to teach but become easier over time with the new Turali language. If its after, then it would have just been doing it entirely from scratch where a good deal of time is just trying to teach them a language.

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I don’t put much stock in the blue book about a single random tribe for telling us when Turali was picked up as a language in the rest of the kingdom. Much of India to this day speaks neither Hindi nor English which are the two “official” languages.

To me it makes much more sense that the language was created around the moment of unification 80 years ago and slowly spread out to the more connected and closer parts of Tural as a trade/official language. Especially since the whole point of Turali was for unification.

Either way I’d say it’s 50/50 as to whether the infrastructure in Shaaloani is directly Eorzean or if it’s all native. Koana is a Turali prince staying at the studium who is technologically minded and Erenville is another native of Tural working for the scholars. The former could have very well brought the technology back to his homeland and the word “bar” could be an Eorzean loanword in Turali.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don’t put much stock in the blue book about a single random tribe for telling us when Turali was picked up as a language in the rest of the kingdom. Much of India to this day speaks neither Hindi nor English which are the two “official” languages.

To me it makes much more sense that the language was created around the moment of unification 80 years ago and slowly spread out to the more connected and closer parts of Tural as a trade/official language. Especially since the whole point of Turali was for unification.

Either way I’d say it’s 50/50 as to whether the infrastructure in Shaaloani is directly Eorzean or if it’s all native. Koana is a Turali prince staying at the studium who is technologically minded and Erenville is another native of Tural working for the scholars. The former could have very well brought the technology back to his homeland and the word “bar” could be an Eorzean loanword in Turali.

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"Random tribe", Its literally one of the four books you read in 6.55. Just like the book that talks about popotos being brought from there or the other about alpacas over there.

As I mentioned before by digging into the JP version of the game, Turali is a language that was born from using the most common words around the world. Their entire language is loanwords.

Time is important.

Ketenramm sailed to the New World 1497, in 1498 he arrives in the new world and first meets with the mamool ja, in 1499 he first goes to the capital and gives the Mamool Ja silver as a gift, 1500 when he first arrived back to Limsa Lominsa.

We also know it took Ketenramm "two moons", aka 2 months, to get there in the first place. Which means he sailed in our equivalent of november and arrived in the new world on January. Then he took at least two months setting up a base camp with his crew and living there until he first met the mamool ja. Then he spent several moons there until he returned home.

In fact its only in 1500 when other sailors tried to sail to the new world as a new golden age for exploration. But it was a journey with a lot of danger and shipwrecks. Which would mean that while there is a potential trade route, there is no guarantee that a ship going to or coming from the new world would make it back. Ketenramm was the exception.

We the players are still in the year 1577, the same year where we beat up Gaius at his castrum. That what I am saying is if the language was born from trade, it would have been at the latest, 79 years ago based on his stay there, 78 if it was made the year they decided to have trade routes with Limsa. And this is just me being charitable. As the people of Tural are likely multi-lingual before if they could have, as according to Wuk Lamat, 80 Years of Peace.

Krille is 22. Krille's grandfather who got the letter is 60. The letter has faded writing. For inking to fade from paper that usually takes one or more decades. The letter was under a mess of paperwork and was basically shielded from direct sunlight, which sunlight, can cause inked writing on parchment to fade faster.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

"Random tribe", Its literally one of the four books you read in 6.55. Just like the book that talks about popotos being brought from there or the other about alpacas over there.

As I mentioned before by digging into the JP version of the game, Turali is a language that was born from using the most common words around the world. Their entire language is loanwords.

Time is important.

Ketenramm sailed to the New World 1497, in 1498 he arrives in the new world and first meets with the mamool ja, in 1499 he first goes to the capital and gives the Mamool Ja silver as a gift, 1500 when he first arrived back to Limsa Lominsa.

We also know it took Ketenramm "two moons", aka 2 months, to get there in the first place. Which means he sailed in our equivalent of november and arrived in the new world on January. Then he took at least two months setting up a base camp with his crew and living there until he first met the mamool ja. Then he spent several moons there until he returned home.

In fact its only in 1500 when other sailors tried to sail to the new world as a new golden age for exploration. But it was a journey with a lot of danger and shipwrecks. Which would mean that while there is a potential trade route, there is no guarantee that a ship going to or coming from the new world would make it back. Ketenramm was the exception.

We the players are still in the year 1577, the same year where we beat up Gaius at his castrum. That what I am saying is if the language was born from trade, it would have been at the latest, 79 years ago based on his stay there, 78 if it was made the year they decided to have trade routes with Limsa. And this is just me being charitable. As the people of Tural are likely multi-lingual before if they could have, as according to Wuk Lamat, 80 Years of Peace.

Krille is 22. Krille's grandfather who got the letter is 60. The letter has faded writing. For inking to fade from paper that usually takes one or more decades. The letter was under a mess of paperwork and was basically shielded from direct sunlight, which sunlight, can cause inked writing on parchment to fade faster.

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In fact it gets even easier to pin this point down:

1500: Ketenramm talked of the new world and inspired other sailors, however the waters are too dangerous for most.
1535: Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn is born.
1555: Merlwyb is now twenty and leads the League of Lost Bastards on a expedition into the new world.
1556: Merlwyb returns back to Limsa Lominsa, having discovered a safe passage to the new world.
1559: Merlwyb goes on another trade expedition into the new world, this time with an armed merchant armada.

Source - Encyclopedia Eoreza Volume 1

So since the first time there was a trade expedition was 1559, the new Turali language has an 18 year window as this is itself a pidgin language AKA a trade language. What makes a language a pidgin language is it can be built from words, sounds, or body language from a multitude of languages as well as onomatopoeia. And since Wuk Lamat states its a language from using "commonly used words around the globe" in the JP version of the game, it confirms its a pidgin language. Pidgin languages are not initially meant for writing, they are meant for merchants who are speaking with other cultures. Its not impossible for a pidgin language to develop into a fully fleshed out language, but it doesn't start out as one meant for writing.

EDIT: And since the letter is faded, that means it has 21 year window as that is the latest anyone else could safely travel to the new world.

EDIT 2: Also if trade expedition causes a language to be created within those 18 years, that means that people of the new world in the 80 Years of Peace were getting along just fine in being multilingual for at least 62 Years.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

So since the first time there was a trade expedition was 1559

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Ketenramm did multiple expeditions 80 years ago, not just one. It's said in one of the same books you were looking at:

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Ketenramm would return to Tural several times

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Merlwyb discovered the first safe passage west.

Considering he was there when the kingdom was created and Wuk Lamat said the language was created "some time ago", I took that all to mean that it was a part of the initial unification 80 years ago. The letter could very well be written by Ketenramm since we don't know when he died or when he stopped going west or even if he just stayed west.

Regardless, I would still say it could go either way on that town shown being Eorzean or Turali but I lean towards Turali since we know there's a Miqo prince, who could be the same prince as the one who has an interest in technology and has been to the Studium, and could be of the same people as the suspenders-wearing Miqo'te from the trailer and they could have been speaking Turali-Eorzean pidgin and had a script this whole time.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Ketenramm did multiple expeditions 80 years ago, not just one. It's said in one of the same books you were looking at:


Merlwyb discovered the first safe passage west.

Considering he was there when the kingdom was created and Wuk Lamat said the language was created "some time ago", I took that all to mean that it was a part of the initial unification 80 years ago. The letter could very well be written by Ketenramm since we don't know when he died or when he stopped going west or even if he just stayed west.

Regardless, I would still say it could go either way on that town shown being Eorzean or Turali but I lean towards Turali since we know there's a Miqo prince, who could be the same prince as the one who has an interest in technology and has been to the Studium, and could be of the same people as the suspenders-wearing Miqo'te from the trailer and they could have been speaking Turali-Eorzean pidgin and had a script this whole time.

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Yes but the book makes the distinction between an Expedition and a Trade Expedition. When Merlwyb first started charting this was just an expedition like Ketenramm's, the book then later notes 3 years after her charting she embarks on a Trade Expedition.

EDIT:

Over the Horizon (found in Gubal Library)

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“Though there is some debate as to whether or not Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn and her League of Lost Bastards were the first Eorzeans to discover the western continent, there is no denying that their navigational charts were instrumental in establishing the major trade routes of today.

Moreover, the accounts from their expedition are widely regarded as both informative and entertaining. of particular note is their first encounter with the Mamool Ja, as well as other indigenous peoples and creatures which seemed curiously intent on their demise.

These travel journals have since inspired a legion of explorers and treasure hunters to retrace the League’s journey. Yet in spite of their numbers, the existence of a “bleedin’ city o’ gold” remains unconfirmed…”

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EDIT 2: I do agree its probably gotten a pidgin written language now. As having major trade routes now and for 18 years likely caused the written and spoken tongue to radically change. And I do agree that its very possible that miqote at the studium and sharalyan itself were essentially bi-lingual in Turali and Eorezan. Which that is also evident with Erenville as he is bi-lingual.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

While not entirely related, I am interested to see more about Wuk Lamat's relationship with violence. She's definitely a proud warrior (both lowercase and capitalized), and definitely someone who likes a good fight... but she's also here entirely to avoid someone declaring war. There's definitely some interesting complexity to be had here, that we've only seen the tip of.

My guess is that she might actually be fairly inexperienced at violence to a greater end, for a purpose beyond base survival or the social element of sparring and hunting. Which, rather sadly, would be something that we and the twins could provide some wisdom on.

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I have a feeling we may get plenty of time to know her as a person and her stance on how to rule her country during early stages of the MSQ.

She only just been introduced so they need to invest a good amount of time during the beginning of 7.0 for us to know her as a character.