What would a new tank even contribute at this point

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

At this point I'd take that over what we currently have.

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untill your main is the one effected

Personally, I don't feel like the existing 4 tanks are different enough to warrant a 5th. If there aren't enough ideas to spread across 4 tanks, then there won't be enough for 5.

And to be clear, I'm not even talking about whether they're the most effective at X, Y, or Z; it's just whether they feel different, both thematically and functionally. And in my subjective opinion, they don't; they're 90% the same moves with a tiny dash of flavor.

That said, when 8.0 arrives, we will 100% be getting a new tank; the only question will be what the state of the existing 4 tanks will be at that point, and whether the 5th can bring any new ideas to the table.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

untill your main is the one effected

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Nah even then. It's not like one job being dog poo will change much when the content is easy as it is.
It would only really be an issue in savage/ultimate which I don't do anyways.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Nah even then. It's not like one job being dog poo will change much when the content is easy as it is.
It would only really be an issue in savage/ultimate which I don't do anyways.

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i recall in 6.1 mch being excluded from pf for no damage, trust me this will bleed into even savage and ex's. and even if it didnt. this is a horrible idea that will punish anybody who wants to play those non -meta jobs

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

That said, when 8.0 arrives, we will 100% be getting a new tank

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based on what? the likleyhood the next ranger is the last ever job is not only high, but kinda nesscesery for the health of job balance in this game

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

based on what? the likleyhood the next ranger is the last ever job is not only high, but kinda nesscesery for the health of job balance in this game

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one its the order SE does after 2 DPS is either a healer or tank and we just had a healer this expansion. so its tank and suport ranged dps in the expansion after DT also the job balance is always up and down but over all its balanced fine people just like to complain.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

one its the order SE does after 2 DPS is either a healer or tank and we just had a healer this expansion. so its tank and suport ranged dps in the expansion after DT also the job balance is always up and down but over all its balanced fine people just like to complain.

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Legit don't want a new tank anymore. The tanks are becoming so homogenized i'd rather not have them waste the memory on my SSD for another animation pack that plays the exact same but you have to level up again.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i recall in 6.1 mch being excluded from pf for no damage, trust me this will bleed into even savage and ex's. and even if it didnt. this is a horrible idea that will punish anybody who wants to play those non -meta jobs

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Yeah I remember that. I played a decent amount of mch back then and I can't recall ever actually experiencing anyone denying me for playing it.
A lot of people talk about it yes. But the actual actions I guess were mostly in the elite groups.

Imo FFXIV is way better equipped than wow for creating imbalance in jobs.
You can play all jobs on one character so why not give an incentive to play other jobs.
And also the usage of DPS meters is "technically" not allowed. So only those who use them would even know/care who isn't up to par.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

one its the order SE does after 2 DPS is either a healer or tank and we just had a healer this expansion. so its tank and suport ranged dps in the expansion after DT also the job balance is always up and down but over all its balanced fine people just like to complain.

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literally no. look at the state of rdm right now, look at war. how can u tell me job balance is fine. monk does maxium effort to do same smg as mch with no effort... things are not OK

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Yeah I remember that. I played a decent amount of mch back then and I can't recall ever actually experiencing anyone denying me for playing it.
A lot of people talk about it yes. But the actual actions I guess were mostly in the elite groups.

Imo FFXIV is way better equipped than wow for creating imbalance in jobs.
You can play all jobs on one character so why not give an incentive to play other jobs.
And also the usage of DPS meters is "technically" not allowed. So only those who use them would even know/care who isn't up to par.

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you dont need dps meters to calculate damage, you can do it with a spreadsheet and calculator, thats how YoshiP does it. theres also the decently reliable in game agro meter that shows 1-8 in agro. its not fool proof but its good enough. just because somebody knows your job does bad dps doesnt mean theyre using ACT

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I can't recall ever actually experiencing anyone denying me for playing it

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i literally had to became a rpr main because of it happening on chaos PF

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You can play all jobs on one character so why not give an incentive to play other jobs.

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because exclusion isnt incentive its an ultimatum

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

literally no. look at the state of rdm right now, look at war. how can u tell me job balance is fine. monk does maxium effort to do same smg as mch with no effort... things are not OK

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they are fine. you can feel other wise and so will other people you can't make everyone happy. every expansion will come with a decent amount of combat changes that make every job suck to someone for some reason and say it's not balanced but at the end of the day it will be alright.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

they are fine. you can feel other wise and so will other people you can't make everyone happy. every expansion will come with a decent amount of combat changes that make every job suck to someone for some reason and say it's not balanced but at the end of the day it will be alright.

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dude no. i main mch and play monk on the side. its not "fine" at all. i have to delay half my skills just to line up my bursts with themselves, i have to use a rotation that isnt supported by XIVanalysis making improving and learning enarly impossible. i genuinly think you dont play these jobs your claiming are fine. i play these jobs in savages, i can FEEL that theyre not ok. if itl be "alright" its only because we faut to have it fixed

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

you dont need dps meters to calculate damage, you can do it with a spreadsheet and calculator, thats how YoshiP does it. theres also the decently reliable in game agro meter that shows 1-8 in agro. its not fool proof but its good enough. just because somebody knows your job does bad dps doesnt mean theyre using ACT



i literally had to became a rpr main because of it happening on chaos PF

because exclusion isnt incentive its an ultimatum

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Let's be honest. Who actually calculates damage via the battle log XD.
And the only thing the aggro meter tells you is who's doing more damage (for the most part) compared to others.

We experienced it differently, it happens. I still don't think it would be nearly as bad as you think it would be considering the % of players who play that are casual.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

you dont need dps meters to calculate damage, you can do it with a spreadsheet and calculator, thats how YoshiP does it.

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You don't honestly believe this, do you?

the problem is not "X is better than Y" the problem is "X gameplay is very close to Y's gameplay"

meta is a thing for the top 0,1% players (week1 savages hard dps check (e8s/p8s) or HC speedkill)

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Originally Posted by fulminating

dark knight is best in frontlines, the pve version needed nerfed as to not show favouritism

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I mean DRK is the busiest tank though if you want to look at buttons and general activity during fights. It deserved to be the best tank outside of pvp.

WAR which is the easiest tank keeps getting buffed. It wasn't enough that you could swap Nascent Flash between party members throughout a fight. They had to buff shake it off, and the damage potencies.

I disagree with the general idea that the jobs have been homogenized to the point of being completely the same, but it might happen eventually at this rate. Their general process for balancing jobs and making them viable seems to be blind buffs currently.

How I kinda see it at the moment is that there are two categories of tanks based on their rotation: knights and berserkers. GNB, and PLD seem to fall under the category of knights with their multiple combos, while DRK, and WAR are berserkers focusing on spamming heavy hitting attacks. So a fifth tank could fall under one of these categories or start a new one. I think a tank that focuses on procing parts of their rotation by using skills at the right time while taking might be fun.

I think this is just a issue with how the game "balances" things.

What's the point of uniqueness and class identity when you can make Jobs the same and perform basically the same, DPS can hide from this a bit more with different rotations and theirs very few where actually making a "choice" in class matters (maybe like caster?), The feeling that your job brings something new to the table as a tank/healer has been lost, even with PLD in shb it was a very stand out OT that had utility (Personally I like PLD being a good MT design wise, but I think this is a good example), DRK was a awesome defensive powerhouse but now everyone has their own mit like TBN. I think SHB did this better but also should have been improved on, instead of doubling down on the design of "make everything simple"

Personally I view this as a sort of "balancing act" as you 1. want jobs to feel unique but 2. you want them to all be viable, to the extent where they don't get shut out for picking a certain class. Personally I'd prefer the game to lean into more diversity even at the expense of sometimes a job feeling a bit more weak, aslong as they make sure a job isn't falling behind to useless status I think it's fine, they should be looking to Buff a jobs upsides (or failing to do so, look at why a jobs upsides isn't useful) instead of just buffing their downsides to fit into another job's design, then that job complains they don't have "x, y and z"

EW has been the worst in terms of job design in general, I think SHB hit a good spot but in general should have reverted back in some directions to what storm blood had (I think somewhere in the middle of SHB/SB would have generally been amazing for job design) EW's design is really just... so sanitised? at this point it feels so boring even for a lot of casual players which actually get effected heavily by boring job design, as maximising their job was a core aspect of replay ability.

I think tanks are just a product of the job design team really not knowing how to work Tanks/Healers into the game, DPS are so easy to make them "semi unique" but with tanks and healers their needs to be more drawbacks and upsides outside of rotation.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I mean DRK is the busiest tank though if you want to look at buttons and general activity during fights. It deserved to be the best tank outside of pvp.

WAR which is the easiest tank keeps getting buffed. It wasn't enough that you could swap Nascent Flash between party members throughout a fight. They had to buff shake it off, and the damage potencies.

I disagree with the general idea that the jobs have been homogenized to the point of being completely the same, but it might happen eventually at this rate. Their general process for balancing jobs and making them viable seems to be blind buffs currently.

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DRK is very busy for 20 seconds every 2 minutes and mainly just not overcapping for the other 100. GNB is more consistently busy, old PLD more challenging. I don't really buy your argument - ninja, machinist and bard are all high apm red jobs with blm bringing up the rear. I'm pretty sure summoner's also super low, but difficulty and complexity aren't intrinsically linked. Or you could look at blue mage, which similarly has a very busy opener and near-healer rotation outside of it. BLU's damage suffers over longer periods because of this.

Where would you rank current PLD with the other tanks? The only challenging part to it I can see is remembering to use goring blade now that it's detached from everything.
If there weren't so many bleed-heavy or multihit/back to back raidwides having pld+war wouldn't have sucked so much. This could have been addressed with fight design alterations rather than a buff to both. The potency buffs to all the non-DRK tanks were probably justified given the state of tank damage prior to them - changing shadowbringer to be a GCD or single charge would probably have brought DRK more in line with the others without having the damage spiral upwards quite as much. There's also the question of whether you believe dark knight should be rewarded for showing up essentially, now that buff window alignment is not only expected but nearly built in to the party rotations. It doesn't seem right for DRK to be high on both a and r dps metrics, but I'm not really sure how that could be addressed or balanced satisfactorily without a rework.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

What would a new anything even contribute at this point

hopefully they add some job identity back to the game without risking wow levels of job exclusion

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I'd take that if it meant every class was unique tbh.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

untill your main is the one effected

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I only do savage with friends so this wouldn't affect me.
I also have way more confidence in the dev team here to balance damage numbers to not be 30% variance like wow lol

I doubt it would be so bad that you would get excluded from party finder. I played WHM in Alphascape pugs just fine, despite the job being objectively terrible compared to AST and SCH.

But if we want to diversify job design we would have to inevitably change up the fight design as well, if the mechanics were less scripted and the damage profile less predictable you might actually get some value out of jobs that bring less DPS but more mitigation or support.

As long as the fight design stays the way it is people would absolutely complain about their job doing worse DPS than job X in the same category, because right now DPS is all that matters at the end of the day.

Just look at tanks, sure you could have a tank that is better than any other when it comes to mitigating damage in exchange for mediocre dps.
But if you know that busters happen exactly every 60 seconds and every tank is designed to be able to survive those every 60 seconds then it doesn't matter by how much you survive, just that you do.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

the reason is to play different jobs and aesthetics.

while mechanically they all play the same they look different.

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You know, I joked about this a couple of years back but if people actually think that different particles is all that's needed now to differentiate jobs the game truly has gone off the deep end.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

And how realistic is it exactly for the average, or even above average player to even get any value out of Dark knight that you wouldn't already get out of Warrior but better?

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Ignoring the fact Dark Knight has the strongest mitigation suite, if you're in a casual group then it literally doesn't matter what you play. You already have the whole told equalizer of gear. So play whatever you enjoy. Frankly, I find more than a little silly you're insisting Dark Knight is terrible to play because it can't match Warrior in dungeons? Who cares? Seriously. They're dungeons. Not only are they so pitifully undertuned nowadays tanks can solo them (yes, even DRK) but Dark Knight is far from the only "unbalanced" job in a dungeon setting. How does nerfing Bloodwhetting suddenly make Dark Knight more fun? I'm not even against that either but if you put your enjoyment solely on how good a job is relative to its counterparts. That's on you then hun.

And just to comment on the buffs response. Unless you're group is running a purely selfish comp, Dark Knight still benefits more from raidbuffs than any other tank. Likewise, it's the strongest tank in TEA. Yes, it doesn't hold up well in the 70 Ultimates but that's SE being silly with ability distribution.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Dark knight is the most selfish tank in the game and it doesn't even do more damage than the medic tank that already did everything else better. 6.3 struck a good balance, but the game feels terrible to play rn.
I don't really see much of a point in staying around long term if they won't fix the state of the tanks come Dawntrail. I don't want to play Warrior.

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The fact you say this when 6.2 into 6.3 was the most aggressively overtuned Dark Knight has ever been speaks to how you only care about it being the best and little else. As I said, the job wasn't good, it was oppressive. You're seriously going to argue Dark Knight having more clears of Omega than every other tank combined "struck a good balance"? Come on. If you don't want to play Warrior, don't. Play the job you want. It quite literally doesn't matter outside of very early prog. Even in said prog, it doesn't necessarily matter. My group week 1'd with a Red Mage.

Unfortunately, with how Dark Knight is designed, it simply can't be the strongest tank without dwarfing the other three. It plays too well in the two minute meta and essentially gets free resources whenever there's downtime. They would need to overhaul a lot of Dark Knight's current design to address that, which may not being to your liking. Alternatively, maybe they give enough to the other tanks to balance out their burst phase. We won't know until Dawntrail but simply cracking up Dark Knight's number isn't the answer unless you just want to be the strongest tank.

I miss when all the tanks felt different and played different while tanking. I feel even ff11 does better with tank jobs where they all play vastly different when tanking. I lost interest in tanking since stormblood because of how homogenized and easy they become to play. In ff11 and ff14 before stormblood tanks felt like they all had there own identity but now they all feel like carbon copies of each other just different ability animations.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

play whatever you enjoy..

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Idk why you're singling in on one of the many content pieces i named where War is just better. And yeah, i play in a casual group. Which is exactly why i objectively should not be playing Dark knight, because i don't have the necessary party buffs to get anything out of the job that Warrior doesn't already do better. Don't come at me with this ''play what you want'' bullshit. Also, can this whole notion of Dark knight being better at soaking TB's fucking die already? Even with 5 mits up, after a TB it is me that needs healing, Not the Warrior. It's better everywhere. 6.3 struck a great balance, but it became more and more obvious (Even as per the dev's admission) that fights were overtuned. The dps gap was exacerbated by a timed buff the player got from the fight itself. There was nothing inherently wrong with a tank doing 3% more dps than another that already had it beat on every other front.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

strongest mitigation suite

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*Magic Mitigation
I'd say PLD has the strongest mitigations overall. Especially with the reworks.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Frankly, I find more than a little silly you're insisting Dark Knight is terrible to play because it can't match Warrior in dungeons? Who cares? Seriously. They're dungeons. Not only are they so pitifully undertuned nowadays tanks can solo them (yes, even DRK) but Dark Knight is far from the only "unbalanced" job in a dungeon setting

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Kinda agree, though I do think it should be noted that trying to wall 2 wall pull with duty support AI is significantly spicier on GNB or DRK compared to WAR or PLD. If you look at the data we have WAR packs about 1.5x as much self sustain as DRK or GNB (who are basically tied for lowest), and while the content is easy enough that a skilled DRK can navigate it,I don't think DRK could solo an EW dungeon easily. Its mits are strong yes but they're not 100% uptime, any damage you take would stick so you'd probably be forced to wait for cooldowns at some point (mainly living dead). Its definitely do able but not in the way say PLD or WAR would do it. But I don't think that matters much, I'd argue its hurting healers far more. WAR's design makes dungeon healers pointless.

Its optimal to run 3 dps and a PLD or WAR into a dungeon, healers are only there because duty finder forces it. I view that as an issue, yeah the content is easy enough where it doesn't matter but who wants to feel like a burden like that?

I honestly think the sustain creep the game is facing right now could spiral out of control very easily, and I'm worried that the next expac will be giving DRK and GNB their own Bloodwhetting, as thats usually how they handles tanks in this game. One expac a tank gets a cool thing, next expac all the tanks get it. Happened with Raidwide mits, Gap Closers, TBN equivalents, Given how much casuals complained about sustain for tanks this expac I really can't see a world where we don't see something like this.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Unfortunately, with how Dark Knight is designed, it simply can't be the strongest tank without dwarfing the other three. It plays too well in the two minute meta and essentially gets free resources whenever there's downtime.

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Now this one I agree with, DRK is a balancing nightmare in EW simply due to the fact its the only tank with a real 2m burst, Yeah GNB has bloodfest, but thats no Living Shadow with 2 charges of Shadowbringer.
Honestly even if its not doing the most damage overall, a lot of fights heavily reward what DRK does over the others due to phase changes/downtime ect. Doing big damage in small amounts of time is always going to be superior to doing bigger damage across a long period of time.

I honestly view DRK a lot like old PLD and why it was reworked just as an opposite side of it. PLD played too little into the 2m burst meta, DRK plays too much into it.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

You know, I joked about this a couple of years back but if people actually think that different particles is all that's needed now to differentiate jobs the game truly has gone off the deep end.

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Unfortunately it works. All they need to do for a new job is give it flashy sparkles and fancy animations for the playerbase to lose their minds over it. Instant pre-order success and they don't even need to design an actually good job for it.

There's already 9 tank/melee. You're right, don't need another Tank. There's only 6 ranged (blue mage doesn't count and no-one frickin' plays red mage, so really only 5), sooo... ??????

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Idk why you're singling in on one of the many content pieces i named where War is just better. And yeah, i play in a casual group. Which is exactly why i objectively should not be playing Dark knight, because i don't have the necessary party buffs to get anything out of the job that Warrior doesn't already do better. Don't come at me with this ''play what you want'' bullshit. Also, can this whole notion of Dark knight being better at soaking TB's fucking die already? Even with 5 mits up, after a TB it is me that needs healing, Not the Warrior. It's better everywhere. 6.3 struck a great balance, but it became more and more obvious (Even as per the dev's admission) that fights were overtuned. The dps gap was exacerbated by a timed buff the player got from the fight itself. There was nothing inherently wrong with a tank doing 3% more dps than another that already had it beat on every other front.

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There's a lot to break down here. So let's begin.

First and foremost, there is no "objectivity" when it comes to which job you're playing unless you're in a hardcore group. I speak from experience having played my preferred job in a hardcore setting even when it wasn't good. I only swapped off Warrior (Dragoon prior to Shadowbringers) for Dragonsong and Abyssos due to how much better Dark Knight was. It's not BS to say "play what you want" in a casual static. It quite literally doesn't matter. You could bring two Dark Knights and easily meet the DPS check nowadays while performing the actual tanking aspect just as fine.

As for buffs. You only mentioned your static having a Machinist. While that does slightly reduce the overall potential for Dark Knight, you'd need to have a heavily leaning selfish comp for it to matter. Omitting one or two jobs from the "buff synergy" comp doesn't make that big a difference.

Have you actually played Warrior in Savage? Thrill, Equilibrium and Bloodwhetting are great but you still need to be healed. In fact, having healed most of the Savage fights this expansion, I've had to heal good Dark Knights less than Warriors. Fun fact about bleeds, which were rampant in Abyssos. They tick for less damage the more you mitigate. So all that healing Warrior has gets chunked through fast. A perfect example of this being P7S. Dark Knight always has Dark Mind + Oblation + TBN or Shadow Wall + Oblation + TBN for every single buster. They can nearly zero the damage at higher ilvls. Comparatively, Bloodwhetting gets shredded through and Trill is objectively worse than Dark Mind for anything not physical.

Back in Dragonsong, Dark Knight was the only tank you could pair with Paladin and not cost the healers GCDs in phase 6 due to Dark Knight having so much mitigation tools. It could freely give TBN to Paladin without going negative whereas things real spicy for Warrior and Gunbreaker attempting to do the same. Not so much an issue nowadays since they brought back Bulwark but still worth noting.

Finally, you keep insisting 6.3 "struck a great balance" despite there being irrefutable proof it did the exact opposite. What part of Dark Knight having more clears of Omega than every other tank combined screams balanced to you? Even after the buffs to Warrior and Paladin, both were close to 7-8% behind Dark Knight and Gunbreaker—more than double what you cited. At the launch of Abyssos, that number was a staggering 11-12%, one of the highest discrepancies in the game's entire history. You were pretty much griefing to not have a Dark Knight the first three weeks of Abyssos.

At no point throughout the entirety of Abyssos were the tanks ever remotely balanced. Frankly, P8S wasn't all that overtuned but rather several jobs simply couldn't keep up. Warrior, Paladin, Reaper, Machinist, Bard, Red Mage and Summoner were all leagues behind their respective counterparts. Dancer wasn't actually good either but barely decent. And since you need at least one phys range, they were grudgingly accepted. Abyssos, on the whole, saw some of the worst tuning we've seen since Heavensward. It was bad.

And just for clarity's sake, P8S was the only fight you could argue was overtuned. None of the others were, especially considering you could skip Cachexia 2 week 1.

If your deciding factor for whether to play a job is "it must be better than x job" then why not apply those same principles to your static? Machinist is, "objectively", the worst Phys. Range. All it offers over Bard/Dancer is Dismantle, which is a far cry from the damage discrepancy between them. Guess that means your Machinist needs to switch jobs too. Do you have a Red Mage? Black Mage is so hilariously better you better tell them to play it. Sage? Ehh, sorry. Scholar does nearly everything on par or better while dealing more damage. So need to switch.

See how quickly that logic falls apart? You won't get any objection from me if they nerf Bloodwhetting come Dawntrail but that doesn't make Dark Knight any more fun to play than it already was. Stop basing your enjoyment off whether the job is "better" and just play what you find fun. That's all that matters in a casual static.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

*Magic Mitigation
I'd say PLD has the strongest mitigations overall. Especially with the reworks.

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Which is the prevailing damage type for nearly every tank buster in the game. Even with the occasional physical variety, it's incredibly rare you won't find a consistent use for Dark Mind throughout the encounter.

Prior to the rework, Paladin was the only tank that actually needed outside support for tank busters in some fights and had no answer for bleeds. While much better since, I'd still argue Dark Knight is better overall, especially when you consider Hallowed Ground vs. Living Dead (new).

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WAR's design makes dungeon healers pointless.

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You certainly won't get an argument from me here. Warrior's sustain in dungeons is downright silly. Paladin sort of gets away with it since Clemency is a damage loss but on the whole, tanks have become far too self sufficient in nearly every department.

Dark Knight definitely can handle solo-ing dungeons but there's no denying it has a far spicier time doing so than Warrior.

At an absolute minimum, they should smack Bloodwhetting down to either a specific potency or limit the amount it heals. Preferably, I'd like to see tanks and healers have less tools so there's more of a decision making and reliance from both roles but that's a whole separate discussion, and not something I suspect SE will actually do.

Ironically, giving Dark Knight and Gunbreaker their own overpowered sustain might be enough to "reality check" the dev team, so to speak. We'll see a LOT more complaints if all four tanks can easily solo content. Bit of short term pain for potentially long term gains in a way.

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I honestly view DRK a lot like old PLD and why it was reworked just as an opposite side of it. PLD played too little into the 2m burst meta, DRK plays too much into it.

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Pretty much. It's rather unfortunate too because they've essentially painted themselves into a corner without reworking Dark Knight again. I suppose they could severely nerf Edge/Flood's potency and move it elsewhere to minimize the impact DRK has during raid buffs but that feels kind of lame.

A Tenacity oriented Tank that uses more of that stat and gets bonuses for it's applications.
Can be a passive return-damage mechanic based on Tenacity.

Make a tank with an Flee/Counter as main mechanic and give him more constant yet weaker damage reduction (Diferent % of parry) in the form of Parried!, Evaded!! and Countered!!! status effect that proc diferent abilities and change conditions for it's main rotation.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

A Tenacity oriented Tank that uses more of that stat and gets bonuses for it's applications.
Can be a passive return-damage mechanic based on Tenacity.

Make a tank with an Flee/Counter as main mechanic and give him more constant yet weaker damage reduction (Diferent % of parry) in the form of Parried!, Evaded!! and Countered!!! status effect that proc diferent abilities and change conditions for it's main rotation.

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The issue with a tenacity related tank is that they would need to make the damage stats you get from it comparable to Crit or Det.
Unless they change the current combat that is. Because right now having more tenacity would be pointless since nothing hits hard enough to warrant having it. The tanks who do more damage would always be favored.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

The issue with a tenacity related tank is that they would need to make the damage stats you get from it comparable to Crit or Det.
Unless they change the current combat that is. Because right now having more tenacity would be pointless since nothing hits hard enough to warrant having it. The tanks who do more damage would always be favored.

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Tanks should have access to "Retaliation Damage" giving many skills/abilities or spells (All mitigation basically), including a Role Ability this type of damage: Make Tenacity (Role-Based Damage) govern that damage with more weight than all others - literally inverse for those actions the damage stats with tenacity as it works now.
Also they could modify Tenacity to weight more just for Auto-Attack.

You don't buff Tenacity to increase all damage, keep it as it is for that - But increase Tank actions oriented damage and a new damage type entirely for it's own to govern.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

dark knight is best in frontlines, the pve version needed nerfed as to not show favouritism

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I would replace "best" with " completely busted"