Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I suspect that part of the reason the rework feels like it's lacking something is because they deliberately omitted a few things with the intent of giving them back to us at level 100 cap.

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It's blindingly obvious SMN will go the same route as MCH did. At 100 they will get some random oGCD that doesn't interact with the kit, some potency upgrades, and maybe a new animation or two. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Vandso

I don't necessarily want DoTs, I just think that it's worth a try. Also, wasn't Summoner the ultimate DoT management job?
And of course Summoner have to make some optimization changes depending on the fight, but it's not every fight. Almost none actually.

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SMN was, until both the community and SE decided they hated DoTs

I’m holding out copium the next caster is a DoT heavy class (would
Love something like afflock in XIV) but I’m not holding out hope too much

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Originally Posted by Vandso

I don't necessarily want DoTs, I just think that it's worth a try. Also, wasn't Summoner the ultimate DoT management job?
And of course Summoner have to make some optimization changes depending on the fight, but it's not every fight. Almost none actually.

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I have my doubts if we'll ever really see any true dot-based job (new or old reworked). Not just SMN, but we had an across-the-board dot nullification ever since SB. The only job with actually 2 dots nowadays is BRD and even those became almost mindless to manage. Maybe the combat infrastructure just don't do well with that? I can't say much because I'm not a programmer or know the game's code, but I wouldn't be surprised if this would be ever sphagetti's fault, based on how clunky some specific little aspects of the game systems are.

It's either that or they are cooking the next caster job to be really dot-focused, and simplified that niche to everyone else.

Did you just hit rock bottom having to speak to yourself? Lol.

I just don't know why it's so wrong to just have a simple job with simple mechanics, seriously

Games like League have simple champions so you can focus more on the main mechanics and not so on your main buttons, that way you have both people who can have an easy time playing the game without putting a lot( or more than it should) thought on it

On meeles we have RPR with an easier pack of variable positionals you can choose and a stance where you directly don't have one
On healers we have WHM and to an extent SGE with simplier gauges and stuff to manage, contrary to AST and SCH wich at high level it's rewarded with a shit ton of dmg buff on the case of AST
And for tanks we have WAR again with a simple combo and unga bunga rotation

Why is it so wrong for casters and SMN to be just, simple?
Being BLM one of the highest cielings, RDM a job easy to play but hard to master and SMN just being, well, SMN

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Originally Posted by Vandso

I don't necessarily want DoTs, I just think that it's worth a try. Also, wasn't Summoner the ultimate DoT management job?
And of course Summoner have to make some optimization changes depending on the fight, but it's not every fight. Almost none actually.

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I'd say it was about the same, or slightly less technical than BRD currently is.

Do you do Ultimate and current Savage content?
Almost all those fights have optimizations you can make with what you summon first either due to movement or due to the boss becoming untargetable and needing to maximize potency

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

I just don't know why it's so wrong to just have a simple job with simple mechanics, seriously

Games like League have simple champions so you can focus more on the main mechanics and not so on your main buttons, that way you have both people who can have an easy time playing the game without putting a lot( or more than it should) thought on it

On meeles we have RPR with an easier pack of variable positionals you can choose and a stance where you directly don't have one
On healers we have WHM and to an extent SGE with simplier gauges and stuff to manage, contrary to AST and SCH wich at high level it's rewarded with a shit ton of dmg buff on the case of AST
And for tanks we have WAR again with a simple combo and unga bunga rotation

Why is it so wrong for casters and SMN to be just, simple?
Being BLM one of the highest cielings, RDM a job easy to play but hard to master and SMN just being, well, SMN

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The end goal of all jobs is low skill floor medium to high skill ceiling, is this hard concept to understand?

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

I just don't know why it's so wrong to just have a simple job with simple mechanics, seriously

Games like League have simple champions so you can focus more on the main mechanics and not so on your main buttons, that way you have both people who can have an easy time playing the game without putting a lot( or more than it should) thought on it

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Yeah but league has macro.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

I'd say it was about the same, or slightly less technical than BRD currently is.

Do you do Ultimate and current Savage content?
Almost all those fights have optimizations you can make with what you summon first either due to movement or due to the boss becoming untargetable and needing to maximize potency

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Come on, don't compare Summoner to Bard. Bard is basically a wack-a-mole minigame disguised as a job. And if you delay a single song your parsing lowers drastically.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

there are a lot of people that want the old DoT gameplay back

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The issue that Summoner had before was that it was partially a summoner and partially a dot-management job and SE was struggling to make it both of these things at the same time, so they had to choose. It had this whole technical rotation just to summon one or two things like Bahamut or Phoenix, and most of the time used egis that were underwhelming.

I think another dot gameplay job or even another pet job would be fine, but it was difficult to achieve a traditional FF summoner the way they were doing it before. If the pet never needed to change because it was always whichever pet you had captured, then the focus could be more on the job's other mechanics such as dots.

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Originally Posted by Vandso

Come on, don't compare Summoner to Bard. Bard is basically a wack-a-mole minigame disguised as a job. And if you delay a single song your parsing lowers drastically.

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Why wouldn't you compare it? its the only job that has had to make an actual effort managing their dots and correctly snapshotting them with personal/party buffs. forgetting to use iron jaws does feel pretty bad tho lol

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You look like you play dancer, the job with the least amount of buttons lol.

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Dancers my pick here bcause i cosplay a character from xenoblade 2
I main the tanks and dragoon mostly

But i'd say dancer is still more engaging than summoner just because of having to manage procs lol

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Originally Posted by Vandso

It's not about the complexity, it's about being interesting. Samurai and Red Mage are quite easy jobs and I don't see anyone complaining about them.

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Aren't people constantly talking about how redmage is incredibly difficult to optimize compared to smn/blm?
I guess casually red mage is easy, but it's one of the hardest jobs to play at a high level

Love modern summoner - my favorite version and it's my main DPS since ARR.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Both these jobs benefit from the fact they have low skill floors and medium to high skill ceilings.

SMN the floor is the ceiling.

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SMN is hard mode. Play with large Summons where you can't see anything half the time lol.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Aren't people constantly talking about how redmage is incredibly difficult to optimize compared to smn/blm?
I guess casually red mage is easy, but it's one of the hardest jobs to play at a high level

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BLM is infinitely harder to optimise than any other job in ffxiv. Its the only one with a 44 page google doc guide for optimisation + ANOTHER huge guide on the balance webside.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

SMN is hard mode. Play with large Summons where you can't see anything half the time lol.

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That’s just shooting yourself in the foot because you want to see how much it hurts

Not every job needs to be complicated and need 4 bars for their skills.

Having simpler jobs gives players choices.

Such as White Mage being simple compared to Astro.

Or Warrior being the simplest Tank for beginners to pick up. Or those who don't want to think too hard when wanting to relax while Tanking.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not every job needs to be complicated and need 4 bars for their skills.

Having simpler jobs gives players choices.

Such as White Mage being simple compared to Astro.

Or Warrior being the simplest Tank for beginners to pick up. Or those who don't want to think too hard when wanting to relax while Tanking.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6274255

Given what the dev team's track record is like with MCH as an example, I'm almost 100% certain that they'll just tack on Summon Alexander at lv100 and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6274255

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What is your point? I'm not going to a link posted with no context.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

What is your point? I'm not going to a link posted with no context.

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Ive answered the same questions from people who continually just read only the OP and not the conversation like 4 or 5 times now.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Ive answered the same questions from people who continually just read only the OP and not the conversation like 4 or 5 times now.

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Okay? My point still stands.

Summon is fine and way better than it was before.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Okay? My point still stands.

Summon is fine and way better than it was before.

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Job complexity has literally nothing to do with the equation. You missed the entire point. Old SMN vs new SMN is irrelevant. There is literally no avenue for skill expression playing current summoner. The only interaction SMN kit has with itself is you get 3 legos everytime you bahamut or phoenix. The only expression choices you have are "do i want movement now or do i want movement later?"

Theres nothing impactful about what you are doing as a SMN, you just keep pushing damage nukes.

Personally, I wish more jobs were “set” in their routine by 50.

Black mage is rather infuriating in that once you think you have it figured out, the entire rotation changes up like…twice?

Fire-fire-fire-fire, flip and ice ice to recharge, fire fire fire… nope! You got fire 3 now, so skip that.

Oh, now flare!

Oh wait, now you have fire 4 and enochian.

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I’ve said it many times, but I really think the core rotations for all jobs should be entirely done by 50. Post 50, you should really only be gaining oGCds to weave into the core rotation.

Summoner’s case, I can’t say I love it as it, but I am satisfied (disclaimer, I’m only at 80). I think I would prefer something to maintain (like a DoT or buff)..but eh.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Job complexity has literally nothing to do with the equation. You missed the entire point. Old SMN vs new SMN is irrelevant. There is literally no avenue for skill expression playing current summoner. The only interaction SMN kit has with itself is you get 3 legos everytime you bahamut or phoenix. The only expression choices you have are "do i want movement now or do i want movement later?"

Theres nothing impactful about what you are doing as a SMN, you just keep pushing damage nukes.

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Most classes fall into a general rotation without much thinking of "expression". Many of my DPs classes I have set up where I can mostly just cast my spells in the order I have them on my bar and then repeat, maybe having a proc on some classes here and there.

personally i think SMN has a strong identity and a fun rotation and that is all i need from it, i dont need a needlessly complicated rotation, there are other jobs for that, SMN is intuitive to the point where i dont have to learn a clunky rotation off the balance, i dont have to have it simed every patch to redefine my opener, its simple yes, but fun, and accessible to everyone.

i play this game to relax, and sometimes i want a class that allows that, this is not a job, stop trying to make me jump threw so many hoops to just enjoy content.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

personally i think SMN has a strong identity and a fun rotation and that is all i need from it, i dont need a needlessly complicated rotation, there are other jobs for that, SMN is intuitive to the point where i dont have to learn a clunky rotation off the balance, i dont have to have it simed every patch to redefine my opener, its simple yes, but fun, and accessible to everyone.

i play this game to relax, and sometimes i want a class that allows that, this is not a job, stop trying to make me jump threw so many hoops to just enjoy content.

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I swear its just willful ignorance at this point. Thats literally the whole point of low skill floor. The jobs should be fundamentally easy to pick up and play at a basic level. Is it really that hard to understand that SMN.... doesnt really advance past that at all?

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Most classes fall into a general rotation without much thinking of "expression". Many of my DPs classes I have set up where I can mostly just cast my spells in the order I have them on my bar and then repeat, maybe having a proc on some classes here and there.

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If thats how you perceive every job than youre kind of on the level Europe was before they realized the Americas were a thing. There is literally a whole world of optimization beyond playing the fundamental classes beyond 123 and push buff every 2 minute.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I swear its just willful ignorance at this point. Thats literally the whole point of low skill floor. The jobs should be fundamentally easy to pick up and play at a basic level. Is it really that hard to understand that SMN.... doesnt really advance past that at all?



If thats how you perceive every job than youre kind of on the level Europe was before they realized the Americas were a thing. There is literally a whole world of optimization beyond playing the fundamental classes beyond 123 and push buff every 2 minute.

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If the job is extremely popular as it is, why exactly does it need to have a skill ceiling much higher than it's skill floor? Who exactly are we making these changes for?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6274229

It’s almost like you just don’t read the response I gave to you 6 pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I swear its just willful ignorance at this point. Thats literally the whole point of low skill floor. The jobs should be fundamentally easy to pick up and play at a basic level. Is it really that hard to understand that SMN.... doesnt really advance past that at all?



If thats how you perceive every job than youre kind of on the level Europe was before they realized the Americas were a thing. There is literally a whole world of optimization beyond playing the fundamental classes beyond 123 and push buff every 2 minute.

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The thing is, in game there really isn’t any reason to play optimally outside of very specific content. If the player is able to do their basic rotation on any job they will likely be able to clear 90% of the game’s content, likely with NPC characters. This just isn’t a game that demands high skill or out-of-the-box thinking for most of the game. The fact that devs regularly nerf core game content should make this clear.

For me, if I want to play a game that rewards creativity or the ability to play skillfully, I will play that game instead. In FFXIV, I’m just here to watch the main story and derp around with friends. There is literally nothing in this game that I find motivating enough for me to invest time/effort to give more than a very solid C+/B- performance. Nothing to brag about, but I’m gonna pass “the class”.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Na, Summoner is perfect ^^ Adding more buttons to press just to press more buttons is silly.

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my only gripe with it now i still wish we could sick carbuncle on the target xD

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

If the job is extremely popular as it is, why exactly does it need to have a skill ceiling much higher than it's skill floor? Who exactly are we making these changes for?

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Easy to learn, hard to master. It's popular game design quote, which describes healthy skill curve. Yes, skill curve, it should be a curve, not a flat line. That's the problem with SMN, difference between someone who started hour or year ago is minimal, that is just bad design, veteran player should know all the nuances and optimization, but SMN just doesn't have any of that, which is why it's badly designed. Popularity is irrelevant, these players don't care about job, they don't care about job fantasy, they just play it for it's simplicity. If you made even easier job, those people will flock to that job instead.

I really hope the whole point of the rework is to add more summons in 7.0, and maybe add depending of the 3 summons you used, you get something else than phenix for your second burst (Alexander or something, with different effects). That could be a nice use of the current summoner.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

I really hope the whole point of the rework is to add more summons in 7.0, and maybe add depending of the 3 summons you used, you get something else than phenix for your second burst (Alexander or something, with different effects). That could be a nice use of the current summoner.

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People thought the same about Machinist in 5.0. "Oh, this is just the baseline, they're totally going to expand on the job in 6.0"

And that job still has a higher skill ceiling and more nuance than summoner, despite being just as barebones.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I swear its just willful ignorance at this point. Thats literally the whole point of low skill floor. The jobs should be fundamentally easy to pick up and play at a basic level. Is it really that hard to understand that SMN.... doesnt really advance past that at all?



If thats how you perceive every job than youre kind of on the level Europe was before they realized the Americas were a thing. There is literally a whole world of optimization beyond playing the fundamental classes beyond 123 and push buff every 2 minute.

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Care to give me some examples of skill expression in this game? Examples where you really wowed everyone and aren’t just playing the general flow of your jobs rotation?

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6274229

It’s almost like you just don’t read the response I gave to you 6 pages ago.

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The only thing I could get from that quote as to WHY there must be a skill gap between floor and ceiling is that summoner is TOO easy? Meaning you want it nerfed then? I don't want to assume though, is that what you're saying?

EDIT from next page (apologies, post limit):

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Essentially, yes. Damage of bad player should be significantly nerfed, while good player should deal similar numbers as now.

Let's simplify things a lot and ignore all the ress taxes, rDPS vs aDPS and so on. We have Bob which is bad player but not that bad, then we have Greg which is good player but not that good. Bob plays SMN and deals 9K damage, Greg plays SMN and deals 10K damage. Better player should deal more damage, so everything is fine so far, right? What if they switched to RDM? It's more complex, so Bob is struggling and deals only 6K damage, while Greg learned to play RDM and can still get 10K damage.

So now tell me, why should Bob ever play as RDM? He would need to put nearly as much effort as Greg, just to deal same damage as he did when he played SMN. And this is exactly what is happening. FFLogs show 18K parses for RDM, but nearly 30K for SMN (and 13K for BLM as a side note). Obviously you also need to take into account that devs once again forgot that RDM exists and somehow deals less damage than SMN, while being objectively harder. But even then, current philosophy says that you should be able to clear with any job, so if SMN doesn't change, he will always have advantage.

Best part about this? Bob can still have fun while playing RDM and/or SMN. Greg just does normal content, so he can mash his buttons however he wants, it doesn't matter that he deals half the damage as Greg when there are no DPS checks.

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Okay, I can appreciate what you're saying. I think I was confused because the OP was originally acting as if the class was boring and needed some extra complexity to make it more satisfying. What you're saying is that it's simply too simple that high end players are using it because it's so simple to the detriment of other jobs. I can appreciate your point of view from that aspect of it.

I honestly love the simplicity of the summoner, and I would very much not want it to have increased difficulty for the sake of the higher end players. I'm not sure how you could change it though. Nerfing the damage straight across the board seems like a rough way of doing it though because then dps checks simply wouldn't be met.

I have to wonder though, with that logic, why would anyone ever play the most complex class? Unless every class is exactly the same complexity, people will always gravitate to the easier ones, aside from people that simply love the job for the design/playstyle.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Care to give me some examples of skill expression in this game? Examples where you really wowed everyone and aren’t just playing the general flow of your jobs rotation?

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All forms of skill expression have been removed for the most part at this point but the one that sticks out to me was probably the Tornado Kick rotation in SB.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Care to give me some examples of skill expression in this game? Examples where you really wowed everyone and aren’t just playing the general flow of your jobs rotation?

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BLM Optimization is good example the non standard lines allow BLM to play around their resources and mana ticks to adjust their rotation on a fight to fight basis while avoiding the use of their least powerful spells.

on some jobs the skill expression comes in the form of resource management, being able to know when to hold and when to burst depending on the phase, TOP is a good example of this forcing players to play their 2m burst as another resource instead of just part of the rotation, others have uptime challenges (mostly non SMN casters) and even in tank's case a good use of mit is a form of skill expression

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

BLM Optimization is good example the non standard lines allow BLM to play around their resources and mana ticks to adjust their rotation on a fight to fight basis while avoiding the use of their least powerful spells.

on some jobs the skill expression comes in the form of resource management, being able to know when to hold and when to burst depending on the phase, TOP is a good example of this forcing players to play their 2m burst as another resource instead of just part of the rotation, others have uptime challenges (mostly non SMN casters) and even in tank's case a good use of mit is a form of skill expression

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Well great. Sounds like you have options you would enjoy.