The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Nor are the forum posters either.

What a pointless take.

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I've actually made quite a number of friends from here.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

just because my opinion is different doesnt mean iam simping for the devs or that iam a shill, but you do you

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Not you specifically or a lot of other posters. But it is hard to trust the pro dev team. People know their birthdays or they send gifts, they have attached a huge part of their life to the devs. This was defended as OK, because the game is important to them. So when someone says "The game can't have instanced houses". I lean towards shill. But some people genuinely don't want instanced houses.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I've actually made quite a number of friends from here.

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Thats because youre the only lovable person in this cesspool of misfits.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Not you specifically or a lot of other posters. But it is hard to trust the pro dev team. People know their birthdays or they send gifts, they have attached a huge part of their life to the devs. This was defended as OK, because the game is important to them. So when someone says "The game can't have instanced houses". I lean towards shill. But some people genuinely don't want instanced houses.

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this wanders dangerously close to double standard territory.

are you saying that people who post multiple threads a day complaining about virtually everything havent attached a huge part of their life as well? And essentially to the same devs?

not saying either behaviour is mentally healthy but if you are going to call out one side for having an obsession, you should really call out both

I think they deserve respect for doing a job I cannot and would not do... that hardly makes me "pro dev", but in some views, if I do not revile the devs, and actually have some idea how development works.. that makes me a shill? convenient

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Thats because youre the only lovable person in this cesspool of misfits.

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Mao thinkings Renalt funs and nice person.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

this wanders dangerously close to double standard territory.

are you saying that people who post multiple threads a day complaining about virtually everything havent attached a huge part of their life as well? And essentially to the same devs?

not saying either behaviour is mentally healthy but if you are going to call out one side for having an obsession, you should really call out both

I think they deserve respect for doing a job I cannot and would not do... that hardly makes me "pro dev", but in some views, if I do not revile the devs, and actually have some idea how development works.. that makes me a shill? convenient

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If you remove one unhealthy individual. I don't think we have anyone with two threads on the first two pages. Yes we definitely have an intentional bad apple. But strangely sometimes they get each side to agree with them in different threads.



Some of the mistakes have been greed or stupidity. Some are just choices and won't please everyone. One of my favourite posts from stormblood, "It is the players fault for trying to do the quests." Do people believe this? Are they simps. Do they not understand what mistakes led to the actual problems and who is to blame? Or instanced housing, every player could have a large instanced inside house. They just don't want to pay for the sever costs. With that said devs are sort of a blanket for all of SE. Clearly the guy who translates the abilities into french doesn't decide how much to spend on server.



I don't think the main forums have too much complaining. They have a lack of moderator oversite. Someone makes a new thread "housing lottery sucks" merged to the hundred before. "Jobs to homogenized" The forums need some decent sticky threads and merge/delete everything else not in them. When some other new housing thing comes along and 50% of the players get left out we will see ten more threads.

If the devs aren’t my friends how comes we gather up for coffee every thurmonday in my basement?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

SE dev 1: You think the complainers will ever stop subbing?

SE dev 2: lol, of course not.

SE dev 1: nice, let's focus on other things then.

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Yoshi p has said before that the silent always leave first.
This is dumb, people who complain are the most passionate players of all. they want the game to be better, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

During my time working at Ubisoft, the team I worked with completely stopped looking at player feedback because it was useless at best and at worst contradictory to what the actual majority were interested in - the statistics data was the only source of feedback ever needed to see success / failures of certain content designs and how we should model future DLC / content designs on to produce continuously successful results. We knew what the players wanted better than they did, and every piece of content we released following the successful data trends mirrored the same success. More content that mirrored the unsuccessful data trends continued to provide less results comparatively..

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I don't know that Ubisoft is the best example of this because they rightfully got raked over the coals recently because they were focusing all their various games on the same trend of open world multiplayer whether that particular game fit that genre or not. Yeah, the data they gathered about those types of games getting a lot of players across the general gaming playerbase may have been accurate, but they seemed to completely ignore what was popular among the playerbases of all their current games so they could intelligently implement some of those features instead of overhauling all their IPs to that style.

It's also good to remember that depending on how you gather the data and what you gather, it's very easy to manipulate the numbers to suit a certain agenda or idea.

Yes, they are. I dreamed about Yoshi P yesterday...how it would be possible if he was not my friend? checkmate

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's all.

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Fact is that there is no universal right or wrong, lol. What is a flaw for you is maybe something great for someone else. And that is fine, not everyone has to enjoy the same things.

And i believe none of the players is looking at the devs as their actual friends. More like admiration for a company that produces a kinda decent product it seems, judging from the popularity of the game, and the open communication which most other gaming companies lack entirely. I mean look at Blizzard recently again, they said OW2 PvE was right around the corner right to the end to just cancel it. The reason why people love Yoshi P. is cause of the open communication and his background as a fellow gamer, which is kinda the opposite of the standard in the gaming industry, where everyone in the management ranks never played a game in their entire life it seems.

I feel like you are unhappy that other people are happy about the product they receive, which is their right. Same as it is your right to be unhappy about the game.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's all.

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How often do we see people here actually express that the devs are always right? This just seems like made up headcanon being used to try n prove a certain group of people are correct.

I find it odd that folks who dislike many aspects of the game are the ones pulling these cards but the other side rarely does this (as far as these forums go). Devs aren't our friends nor are fellow forum folks so if we applied your line of thinking full sale no one is always right, yes including folks that have issue with the game.
So once again we have a circular thread with no point...

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Yoshi p has said before that the silent always leave first.
This is dumb, people who complain are the most passionate players of all. they want the game to be better, simple as that.

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I would like to speak with your manager.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Any MMO I've played the retention has been poor tbh.

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You can be even more generic. EVERYTHING soon or later becomes boring: a food, hobbies, a friend, even your wife/husband.
Why a particular game should be different?

"go and play something else if you feel burned out" is common sense, some player returns when there is a new expansion play it and then quit until the next expansion, some quit ff14 forever, or perhaps they quit videogames altogether.

The main issue with the complaints in the forums is that they tend to be one of the following:

- Devs are Lazy: No they aren't. They work their full shift and go about it according to a schedule probably prepared by their manager. Nobody here knows what that schedule looks like.
- Devs are clueless/Devs don't listen: Which usually means "They didn't change THIS ONE THING I personally don't like"
- Devs aren't using resources right: Nobody here knows what resources are spent where. Every single post using that argument is complete speculation, and has no real value in a serious discussion.

It's not about devs being our friends, it's about people pretending they know the devs, how they work, and then throwing tantrums because their personal wishes aren't being fulfilled, which doesn't help anyone because it further encourages the devs to stay away from this gods forsaken place. There are definitely discussions to be had, like Healer design, stuff about housing, and a few other things. Sadly, most of the posts aren't about discussing these topics like adults, and are just Gaius or whomever else posting angry useless antagonizing garbage.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

The main issue with the complaints in the forums is that they tend to be one of the following:

- Devs are Lazy: No they aren't. They work their full shift and go about it according to a schedule probably prepared by their manager. Nobody here knows what that schedule looks like.
- Devs are clueless/Devs don't listen: Which usually means "They didn't change THIS ONE THING I personally don't like"
- Devs aren't using resources right: Nobody here knows what resources are spent where. Every single post using that argument is complete speculation, and has no real value in a serious discussion.

It's not about devs being our friends, it's about people pretending they know the devs, how they work, and then throwing tantrums because their personal wishes aren't being fulfilled, which doesn't help anyone because it further encourages the devs to stay away from this god's forsaken place. There's a definitely discussions to be had, like Healer design, stuff about housing, and a few other things. Sadly, most of the posts aren't about discussing these topics like adults, and are just Gaius or whomever else posting angry useless antagonizing garbage.

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I posted in another thread ages ago about how people are generally clueless. everyone complaining about the devs usually seem to think they operate in a vaccuum with zero direction from anyone. I have never seen any development team work like that, and I doubt SE is any different, they develop what they are told to develop, they follow schedules, so they can meet release dates. developers seem to be easy targets because they are the grunts on the front line, but everything they do, goes past higher ups, for direction, approving their output etc. they would not have the bandwidth to spend time on the forums on company time unless directed to do so. and I cant imagine ANY of them being dumb enough to spend personal time on the forums...

the devs are not generally the people complaints, comments etc need to be directed to since they cannot change the game without approval.. people need to set their sights higher for change and blame if they do not like something.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's all.

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I disagree with the devs on some things, but saying they aren't right is actually dumb. They made this game, so from their perspective they are right. We may not agree with them, but they are still right about how to make their game.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Statistics are the single most powerful tool game developers have at their disposal - they paint an infinitely more accurate picture than player feedback ever could. Every large enough game developer has literal terrabytes worth of player data, trends, content participation, etc to base all their decisions on. They literally know the playerbase of their game better than the playerbase ever could.

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Yet statistics lack a crucial piece of information:

What was the player motivation for participating (or not)?

Example: For Mists of Pandaria, the WoW devs added a legendary cloak quest line. Different parts required different content to be done.

Part 1 - Grind certain open world mobs to earn reputation

Part 2 - Grind Valor Points through the usual methods; kill enemy faction NPCs to earn reputation; earn victories in 2 specific battlegrounds; kill a specific elite enemy NPC

Part 3 - participate in a specific raid (any difficulty) to get item drops; grind specific open world NPCs to earn reputation; complete a solo scenario; kill an open world boss; return to the raid to kill bosses for more item drops

Part 4 - complete a role specific solo challenge - legendary cloak is earned in its final form.

Your statistics tell you that hundreds of thousands (perhaps even a couple of million) of players completed all the steps and earned the cloak. What those statistics don't tell is if they enjoyed each content type woven into the questline, or if the player only did them because they either wanted to own the cloak to get access to a specific world boss released late in the expansion or because they were under threat of being removed from their raid team (and possibly their guild) if they didn't have the cloak.

Statistics alone are not a good way to judge what players really want. Many times, players are only doing the content because a specific reward they need or highly desire is gated behind the content and it can't be obtained otherwise. That is why feedback is also important - it can give context to what is shown in the statistics.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Just like a lot of people's criticism isn't constructive, sometimes the responses people have to it aren't either, unfortunately.

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You can disagree with one's opinion, but you should never be rude about it. Yet you say something negative, you're a bad person.
Not uncommon though, this happens everywhere. It is the whole reason why I stopped socializing in this game years ago, after all. Not worth the hassle.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That is much too simple of a response and should find an answer with more depth about why the story was alright, rather than strictly saying "wrong". Just not useful to the debate otherwise.

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TL;DR I don't like a character, this person does, I said why I don't like it, they said I'm wrong for disliking for that reason, and I said "so? I still don't like it" despite their attempts and whipping out the usual "i DoN't CaRe", which makes absolutely no sense considering they made their most damn to talk me down to "like him". It turned from a gaslighting to a proper attack on my opinion and that's not right.

I always said that you're totally fine to like something that others dislike. I hate a lot of games people love, but I will never go attack them for that. Because I don't care, in the truest of senses.
But if it's me, then it's suddenly morally and legitimately right to attack me because I dislike your precious game or character, or story. Sure, whatever.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That is a difficult situation, because people in dungeons are strangers and don't know if you are a nice person or not, so first impressions make a big impact here and how you word it can make a big difference. Obviously, you need them to do the aoe or alternatively heal through it. This and the rest of the examples aren't relevant to discussing feedback for developers though.

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There's no difficulty here: I was a healer, I was dying constantly, unable to heal everyone because tank did zero aggro, we wiped once or twice at the very least in a 30+ dungeon. All I asked, ALL THAT I EVER WANTED FROM THE ONE PULLING THE AGGRO, was to pull aggro. And I was the one blamed for chilling out. Only because I kindly asked the tank to press one button that they weren't pressing.

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed. This brings us back to the point of the post, where "stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right", as people believe that nobody's criticism is correct except for the devs.
There is a connection, even if small.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think most parties would have done that, but people were more rude in ARR and HW because the game hadn't necessarily attracted the casual players it now has and the rules were not as vague.

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People in ARR were more chill than today.

Besides the housing and Castrum/praetorium scenarios, which did happen in ARR, almost every other example - and others that I haven't mentioned - happened throughout HW up until now, and I could probably name more examples as well - like how in HW I was death threatened to "die in a fire" because I just said that I don't like raiding, even though I did coil but apparently "that's not enough!".

Still, back in ARR nobody cared if you disliked the story, and generally were more chill about negativity because "Hey, the game was just remade, let's give them the benefit of the doubt" despite the many questionable choices (chocobo dyeing being one of the biggest conundrums ever).
But I also saw giving their two cents about it and people either disagreed or agreed. It was very human back then and it's why I loved ARR.

But I just so happened to have met people who already had the mindset of "shut up and don't buy it" even back then, but ARR was definitely the most chill community I ever met in a mmo. HW and onward is where things changed entirely. Still regret not quitting on HW to this day because of that...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Everything is about perception. Unfortunately, in ARR the game had a lot of intricate things that caused people to attack you for doing it wrong, when you weren't. For example, I was told to face my shield at the enemies to block them, despite that one of them was at NW and one of them at NE and they wouldn't move, then they left the dungeon before I could answer. It was impossible to block them all. SE since made you block from all directions.

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The point here is that "criticism can be valid if you're not rude about it", not whether perception is wrong or right.

I told them to slowdown or else they die, because tanks back in ARR and HW actually had to play properly to gain aggro, and they did die despite all of my forewarnings. Yet it was -I- who got blamed and kicked, not them.
And worst of all, the report mentioned how I could be possibly wrong on the report, which annoyed me to this very day. This is before the Vague ToS rule changes by the way.

If perception is all that is required, then I can always use my perception to kick anyone who isn't fitting...that's not how it works though and you should know it.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's really about establishing your intentions first because first impressions affect perception.

Just like feedback can lack any sort of depth, so can the responses to that feedback ie. saying the feedback is "wrong" or "bad" without any sort of proper articulate argument as to why or how.

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I really like this quote from somewhere that really fits this whole conversation: "If you don't like being criticized, don't criticize yourself".

I do not care if someone dislikes the games I like. I will not go after them and tell them they're miserable because they dislike something that I love. I will simply say "too bad, I really like it" and move on and if they want to discuss further I'm okay with that, I will not try to impose myself in any way. Of course I might be biased but that's normal too.

The issue is only the opposite, when I dislike something that other like and people will go after me for that opinion which is different, no matter how hard I try to give my opinion in a proper argument because for them it doesn't matter that I have something to say, it matters only that I dislike what they like, meaning that the whole point of "You can say something critical without being rude about it." is completely invalidated, people will attack you no matter what you say.

Was I criticized negatively for other reasons? Absolutely: I'm told I'm a very narrowminded, very harsh person who doesn't open themselves to others, who is very antisocial due to their past experience in the game and will not let themselves open up anymore and I have a huge distrust over everyone. And I accept that criticism of me. But all I will say is "You're totally right, but there's nothing I can do about it" without attacking them and move on.

What I'm trying to say is, feedback and any kind of criticism can yes lack depth and just be destructive, I am not denying that, but today EVERY FEEDBACK lack depth or criticism according to everyone. And that's simply ludicrous.

There are good feedback and bad ones, but people nowadays seem to only see the negatives and ignore the positive, calling them trolls or haters or whatnot. My examples above were basically all negative because nothing constructive was told, just to "shut up" as if I said something completely out of the realm of possibilities and it's not too different from today's standards, where even asking the slightest of improvement in a game is regarded as trolling.

I mean, is pretending from the developers housing to be better than what we currently have such bad feedback?
Because apparently, it is for some.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed.

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First impressions are a big deal in dungeons though. They don't know you and have no way to judge you as a person, especially if your search info is empty and they are unlikely to check in the middle of fighting.

A very common assumption until proven otherwise is that you mean it in a negative way. Until you are outside of the dungeon and having a chill conversation with them and joking with them, they are likely to take a sudden line of advice, completely out of the blue, as aggression. That's why I always say how you word it is a big deal.

The simplest thing you can probably do is just throw in a few emoji faces to establish intention and it does help.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

If the devs aren’t my friends how comes we gather up for coffee every thurmonday in my basement?

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Because you can run faster than them and you're surprisingly good with a lasso.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Because you can run faster than them and you're surprisingly good with a lasso.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/940/b37.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

First impressions are a big deal in dungeons though. They don't know you and have no way to judge you as a person, especially if your search info is empty and they are unlikely to check in the middle of fighting.

A very common assumption until proven otherwise is that you mean it in a negative way. Until you are outside of the dungeon and having a chill conversation with them and joking with them, they are likely to take a sudden line of advice, completely out of the blue, as aggression. That's why I always say how you word it is a big deal.

The simplest thing you can probably do is just throw in a few emoji faces to establish intention and it does help.

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The way I spoke with those people wasn't what I'd call "friendly", but I wasn't being offensive either. All I did in the case of the tank's lacking aoe abilities is simple: "Can you please aoe the adds so I don't die?". How is that something so hard to grasp? How is that a negative way? Well the answer is quite easy honestly: if you can't accept even the smallest of little criticism then the real issue isn't first impressions. The problem it's you.

You know what I do if someone tells me my dps is crap? Or if my tanking is horrible? Or if my healing is trash? I get better and make sure to not do the same mistake. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, even mentally. Ic an tell you many tales of how crappy of a tank I was in WoW, and as a 15-year-old kid I had to deal with a bunch of scums treating me and my younger sister like crap. I remember her crying once because she wasn't healing well as her druid.

But then we toughen up, we became a strong duo, and we rocked and roll every heroic dungeon back in TBC. I thank those "meanies" because without them I wouldn't have become a great tank - and my sister a great healer. Sure they were awful people but I didn't let them stop me, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Basically, what this tank should've done, is simply agreed his mistake and say "sorry, I'll do more aoe". You learned from your first mistake and that's great.

But I will give credit to what you've just said: the simplest thing I discovered doing, is not to talk at all. Let them figure out their own mistakes and let them ragequit, if not then we'll finish the dungeon.
It is against ToS to compel playstyle after all, and I wouldn't dare to tell anyone what to do even if it means not progressing. First impression and all!

Take it as you will, but my opinion doesn't change: "You can say something critical without being rude about it" is an untrue statement, and unfortunately too many don't think the same way and will just believe you're being a rude. No matter how kind or gentle you are. Just like real life, if I might add.

And yes, you are absolutely allowed to disagree with me. And that is fine.

I believe it is best to stop this argument as it is starting to drift off from the main focus of this thread. However, just like I said earlier, too many people here believe that any feedback - even if positive - is bad and shouldn't be taken seriously from the developers. Which I believe it to be true.

Square Enix are fantastic developers. Their commitment to the player community is unparalleled. They listen, they empathize, and they respond. They take player feedback to heart, shaping the game world based on the hopes and dreams of those who inhabit it. Square Enix understands that a game isn't just about graphics and gameplay mechanics; it's about emotions, connections, and the shared experiences of millions. In this digital universe, they've managed to foster a true sense of camaraderie among players, turning strangers into friends and adventures into cherished memories. Only the selfish and angry vocal minority truly thinks poorly of Square Enix. They are the ones that want this game to belong to them and enjoyed by only them. If you can move past their mindset then you would realize that Square Enix has done a fantastic job as creating this game and maintaining it.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

The devs are neutral. They aren't your friend or your enemy. They are there to do a job. Some things stick while others do not. They are trying to make things stick cause that is what makes money...and keeps them with a job.

You may or may not likenl those things that do stick. It's almost like we are individuals with different tastes. One may love something and others hate it with a passion hotter than a thousand suns.

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This. Most of times they're not f then the culprits of the bad systems, it's whomever approves them or asks for them. Devs can be the most skilled, creative in the industry, but it amounts to nothing because ultimately what becomes of the game is in the hands of corporate first and director second.

Why'd my thread revive

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Why'd my thread revive

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new trolling style. they are necroing a bunch of threads to stir up drama.

could also imagine they have no original thoughts of their own...

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

new trolling style. they are necroing a bunch of threads to stir up drama.

could also imagine they have no original thoughts of their own...

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That's hardly something new though :D