Skill/Spell Speed Should be Removed from Gear

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

It'd be great if FFXIV had a real "Haste" stat like other other RPGs, where it actually reduced all CDs, rather just GCDs.

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Early HW Spear card did reduce OGCDs. Enhanced Spears made doing 3 man Titan Ex synced in HW for tank cooldowns. It is a nightmare to balance, though

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Early HW Spear card did reduce OGCDs. Enhanced Arrows made doing 3 man Titan Ex synced in HW for tank cooldowns. It is a nightmare to balance, though

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The funny thing is that people cried for the replacement of Spear only to somehow be happy going from a situational card (20% ability recast time reduction) to a straight inferior one (10% crit... which was ultimately just a 4 to 6% damage buff, opposite Arrow's ~7.7 to 8.9% [before even factoring in rotational thresholds] or Balance's 10%)...

I’m starting to wonder how long it will be until we have two attack buttons.

The one we spam all the time and the fancy one we get to use every two minutes. The fancy one does the same damage as our normal attack but with pretty graphics.

Then the game will be mobile phone ready…

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The funny thing is that people cried for the replacement of Spear only to somehow be happy going from a situational card (20% ability recast time reduction) to a straight inferior one (10% crit... which was ultimately just a 4 to 6% damage buff, opposite Arrow's ~7.7 to 8.9% [before even factoring in rotational thresholds] or Balance's 10%)...

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Yeah, but those Extended Spears on BRDs and MNKs was a lot of fun lol

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yeah, but those Extended Spears on BRDs and MNKs was a lot of fun lol

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Oh, for sure; it's just silly to me that they chose to stick with just "+10%"... on a stat that's inherently worth only half as much as damage (and only some ~70-90% as much as Haste), since crits aren't double-damage in this game.

Like, really... we're going to choose a numbering consistency over actual balance? At least at +16% then it might actually be a competitive option on MNK and BRD.

Please dont talk about old AST im gonna be sad.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yeah, but those Extended Spears on BRDs and MNKs was a lot of fun lol

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I never complained about getting a spear.... or arrow once TP was removed.

And to the original point, no. As mentioned, black mage uses speed. But not just that, summoner needs to get a certain level of spell speed to get its rotation right, and there are high skill speed builds both for samurai and monk right now. The game already lost something when you had to dance around how much accuracy your gear needed, there's no need to dumb things down further and remove that consideration from speed.

Skill speed provides "flavor" to gear. Maybe not a good flavor, but it provides one of the few choices about gear that we do have. Does a player go with augmented tomestone gear that has crit/skill speed or focus on raiding to replace it with the same iLvl gear with crit/DH?

I'll be honest - the only stat I do NOT want is skill speed. If I had to go with crit/skill vs DH/det, I'd just go with the latter since skill speed is "so bad." But, it isn't like I can't do my job if I have skill speed. It just means maybe I should give some thought to what gear I'm wearing. Losing Skill Speed pretty much means there would no longer be any reason to give a passing thought to gear choices. And that is already fairly limited at this point anyway.

I can't take the OP seriously when they said they wouldn't use a weapon with +1/+3 weapon damage because a 2.46 GCD would "play completely differently"

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Asphodelos DRK BiS was 2.45 for instance and not 2.50. DRKs don't require 0 skillspeed, they just prefer the lowest possible for that patch. I don't see an issue with skillspeed being a potential secondary stat on gear.

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The initial BiS set for Asphodelos absolutely needed skill speed, because Blood Weapon didn't use the stack system yet.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I’m starting to wonder how long it will be until we have two attack buttons.

The one we spam all the time and the fancy one we get to use every two minutes. The fancy one does the same damage as our normal attack but with pretty graphics.

Then the game will be mobile phone ready…

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Depending on how fancy you make the spell effect you could probably sell some players on that design. They already oooooh and aaaaaah over every new job preview when the next expansion rolls around because it has pretty spell effects, despite those jobs playing basically the same as the ones we already have...looking at you, Sage...

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I’m starting to wonder how long it will be until we have two attack buttons.

The one we spam all the time and the fancy one we get to use every two minutes. The fancy one does the same damage as our normal attack but with pretty graphics.

Then the game will be mobile phone ready…

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Is that a description of White Mage and the Blood Lily Spell (which is damage neutral)?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The initial BiS set for Asphodelos absolutely needed skill speed, because Blood Weapon didn't use the stack system yet.

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After the 6.1 change, which asphodelos was still BiS, Drk BiS was still 2.45.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I’m starting to wonder how long it will be until we have two attack buttons.

The one we spam all the time and the fancy one we get to use every two minutes. The fancy one does the same damage as our normal attack but with pretty graphics.

Then the game will be mobile phone ready…

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oh, you mean healers

Caster gear still needs SPS for BLMs, but please let me play 2.50 GNB/PLD BiS in peace without having to do dumb things like double tome 660/650 rings

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Originally Posted by Tint

Is that a description of White Mage and the Blood Lily Spell (which is damage neutral)?

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Took them forever just to make it damage neutral and not a damage loss too.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Caster gear still needs SPS for BLMs, but please let me play 2.50 GNB/PLD BiS in peace without having to do dumb things like double tome 660/650 rings

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Please let me play 2.40/2.41 GCD GNB from back in 6.0 in peace, I never imagined that CBU3 would manage to make the rotation even worse after that.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

After the 6.1 change, which asphodelos was still BiS, Drk BiS was still 2.45.

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That's only because people didn't yet parse the adjustments. Dark Knight shifted to 2.5 as their default BiS midway through 6.1 and even Gunbreaker shifted over now, though there's more of a debatable on preference between fast and slow Gunbreaker.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Please let me play 2.40/2.41 GCD GNB from back in 6.0 in peace, I never imagined that CBU3 would manage to make the rotation even worse after that.

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To be fair, I do like the idea of just merging Skill/Spell Speed into "Haste" and doubling or even tripling the numbers. That way we solve both problems. People who want faster tanks, can meld for it while people who prefer slow tanks don't have to buy two rings just to avoid Skill Speed.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To be fair, I do like the idea of just merging Skill/Spell Speed into "Haste" and doubling or even tripling the numbers. That way we solve both problems. People who want faster tanks, can meld for it while people who prefer slow tanks don't have to buy two rings just to avoid Skill Speed.

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I like the idea of merging both stats into haste. Just not sure how I feel about making it melds only, it's a nightmare for omni tanks because 2.50 feels fine on everything except gunbreaker to me. Then again I also absolutely hate the forced 2-cart nonsense you currently have to do, I'll take the scuffed pre-6.2 rotation over that any day.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Is that a description of White Mage and the Blood Lily Spell (which is damage neutral)?

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It's not damage neutral if you count in the Crit chance. Possibility of a Crit on one blood lily will out damage a possibility of a Crit on multiple glares. But yes, it is pretty darn close.

I personally think they should just revamp the whole substats. Replace them with actual % stats that we can read by looking at it in game.
I'm also all for merging the 2 speed ones as others stated.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Replace them with actual % stats that we can read by looking at it in game.

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The devs really don't like giving us clear information about what our substats do.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Skill Speed and Spell Speed should probably be merged because jobs such as Paladin and Dark Knight have some spells and don't always benefit from the extra speed.

But I don't see a good reason to actually remove it.

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I believe PLD/DRK and other Physical DPS/Tank spells is based upon Skill speed and not spell speed, it may sound odd, but it would had made little sense for the devs to make a job 'relieable' on a class off stat.

I'd prefer if they got rid of crit/direct hit. Why should damage output have a luck variable? It's so strange. "Well it evens out in a long fight" okay sure why not just make it a general damage output increase, then. What, for 'gameplay depth'? There's no depth to either hitting a higher number or not based on an unseen force. At least with skill/spellspeed changes you could actually see some alterations to some rotations.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'd prefer if they got rid of crit/direct hit. Why should damage output have a luck variable? It's so strange. "Well it evens out in a long fight" okay sure why not just make it a general damage output increase, then. What, for 'gameplay depth'? There's no depth to either hitting a higher number or not based on an unseen force. At least with skill/spellspeed changes you could actually see some alterations to some rotations.

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It's to provide variance in psychological feedback, and somewhat of an RPG "staple".

The human brain will pick up on it pretty quickly if all your numbers are hitting for the same amount over and over again, and it begins to feel conspicuously "artificial" and "gamey". Same reason there's the artficially-induced 5% damage variance even on non-critical attacks.

That's not to say that FFXIV has ever been a breathtaking simulation of reality, but the "staticness" of lacking crit spikes tends to make numerically-based combat feel more stale and uninteresting; generally, people who aren't parsing and competing with logging tend to have "fun" seeing their numbers randomly get "lucky" and bigger, because it satisfies something similar to the same complex that causes people to engage with other forms of gambling — the promise that sometimes, something more rewarding and exciting happens, if you just keep doing the same thing, and/or execute this-or-that sequence correctly.

At the end of the day, XIV is an extraordinarily simplistic combat system; it doesn't even include most of the modifying factors that RPGs traditionally have, like hit chance, enemy avoidance / armor mitigation / resistances, elemental weaknesses, etc etc. So, the substat systems serve to provide some remaining illusion of variability and "unpredictability" to the combat experience, especially for more casual players who aren't mapping out Savage timelines down to the GCD.

You could strip all of it away, and just put all gear upgrades down to mainstat alone, but the "hit rhythm" of your numerical pop-up feedback would begin to feel extraordinarily predictable and "flat".

Now, whether that's actually "bad" in a game where the "absolute repeatability" of its choreographed combat has become somewhat of its "design identity"... that's up to each individual, I guess. But it is the reason why RNG stuff like Crit/DHit continue to linger around stubbornly.

It would be cool if we could save our materia to glamour plates instead of to the actual gear. That way we could have the same gear but different materia depending on the job.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

It's to provide variance in psychological feedback, and somewhat of an RPG "staple".

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Yeah what you said makes a lot of sense. It's probably one of few ways they can instill variance with their by-the-numbers boss fights yet it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sorta like games like Star Rail and Genshin Impact where for a long time it was just all about stacking as much crit/crit damage as possible. And for a lot of characters it's still like that.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'd prefer if they got rid of crit/direct hit. Why should damage output have a luck variable?

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I like it so long as it makes a difference on more than just the total damage dealt, but doesn't --directly or otherwise-- gate too many nor too significant of the rhythmic markers in our rotations. Take MNK, for instance. The crit gives some added APM. Because it has no margining, it also invites a bit of gambling: Do I hold for another GCD for RoF, which will increase TFC's value by 15%, risking waste of the 18% chance risk of 20% of TFC's value when overcapping? The best answer to that problem is pretty clear (hold it, unless you'd usually end said RoF phase 1 Chakra short of getting the last TFC in under that buff), but it invites a bit of foresight and dynamism because of that RNG. You're working with different timings and layers of potency contribution, improving the complexity of the math problem so that the optimization of your rotation elements is that bit more integrated with each other.

Direct Hit, on the other hand? I'd happily purge it from the game (and perhaps Tenacity and Piety, too, from among the secondary stats), merge SkS and SpS, have MP ticks scale with GCD speed, bring back more crit procs and ways to leverage them across most or all jobs, and then enjoy the inherently increased amount of Det, Crit, and Speed, with the latter two being thereby capable of more impact on gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

I believe PLD/DRK and other Physical DPS/Tank spells is based upon Skill speed and not spell speed, it may sound odd, but it would had made little sense for the devs to make a job 'relieable' on a class off stat.

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PLD\DRK spells ARE linked to SPS instead of SKS, and yes it is really stupid and people have been complaining since forever.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That's only because people didn't yet parse the adjustments. Dark Knight shifted to 2.5 as their default BiS midway through 6.1 and even Gunbreaker shifted over now, though there's more of a debatable on preference between fast and slow Gunbreaker.

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That is actually not true. The gear was still more beneficial at 2.45 during the asphodelos tier due to the crit/sks head/boots > the det/ten head and ten/det boots. The change to 2.5 came in 6.2 because of the gear setup