Did Zenos ruin Endwalker

He did, but to be fair, his character got stale around the end of the main Stormblood msq.

Honestly, Endwalker has so many problems, and he's the least of them. As much as I hate the character, the knock-off end of the Gurren Lagann movie fight part is one of the shining moments in the turd in the punch bowl that is the msq.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I think it's also to do with the passage of time. Clichéd as it may be to pin it on people's memories, and I'm definitely not going to insist it has to be the case with you or any other individual who takes issue with the forum as it is, I see a lot of Shadowbringers fellating that very overtly leaves out the multitude of sore spots and pacing errors, only mentioning the highs they experienced.

And that's just one expansion ago. I would postulate that there's something to that, at least for some people.

But yes, the stakes were also less high-- though I would say that they were still pretty high to the point of demanding alacrity, personally. Azys Lla having a shield was fine, the stuff you did there was also not that egregious, but having to go back and chat with Matoya and go into the Great Gubal Library alone to retrieve a tome definitely could've been nixed if they so wanted to trim the fat. That said, I did enjoy the moments with Matoya and the dungeon, so I obviously don't mind that it was there. Just trying to keep my feelings out of it in this situation. There were a few other spots in HW as well, if I recall.

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The passage of time point definitely has merit. I now look back and realize that a lot of story beats, especially in ARR, have been exactly like that, but I do think that it's also kind of a mindset at the time.

When you were new, you were excited and you're just willing to overlook any slight in the video game, or at least that was for me. I wasn't really analyzing the story beats very much cause it honestly just took me 2 weeks to beat ARR MSQ to 4.2.

I think the fact that we're kinda getting used to it is a factor. Like there's probably a bunch of other games where you being new think X feature is fun and exciting when the old players think it's stale because they just spam it all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The passage of time point definitely has merit. I now look back and realize that a lot of story beats, especially in ARR, have been exactly like that, but I do think that it's also kind of a mindset at the time.

When you were new, you were excited and you're just willing to overlook any slight in the video game, or at least that was for me. I wasn't really analyzing the story beats very much cause it honestly just took me 2 weeks to beat ARR MSQ to 4.2.

I think the fact that we're kinda getting used to it is a factor. Like there's probably a bunch of other games where you being new think X feature is fun and exciting when the old players think it's stale because they just spam it all over the place.

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That's a common situation, yeah. I also just think it's something that can scarcely be avoided in most cases. That said, writing can always be adjusted and improved, so that's not an excuse for it or anything. It's more with content cadence and type that I can see it being hard (if not outright undesirable) to keep shaking it up. Writing is a different beast and is ever-changing, even if some things stay the same.

I do think there's also merit to your point about the stakes. They definitely weren't universal at that juncture, but I still thought they were pretty high. Either way-- every time I replay the MSQ or a part of it, I notice something new, "for weal or for woe" as the characters would say. Sometimes it's a neat little detail or callback or what have you, other times it's realizing that a story I really enjoyed has a lot of problems when your mind hasn't cleansed it of the negatives. (I still like the story overall, though, but like everything, it's not flawless.)

Yes... Zenos was an entire waste of development time...

Meteion on the other hand I found brilliant... she is very much in our present time... people today in the real world feel dishonored... stepped on and anything just because they sneese.... Meteions extreme sensivity and more to peoples feelings and the sourroundings represent that well and also the will be believe in what whatever high up clown says online for mostly his own benefit.

All Garlemald and more it is very much spot on what is happening in the world right now or what it can turn into.

Endwalker ruined Endwalker. Zenos was a very small part of that. The incredibly padded out story, the boring cast, the sheer amount of navel gazing and empty platitudes, the lack of payoff on longrunning storylines that had been built up for years, and the lack of tension.

I'm of the mind that it was consumable, and definitely didn't cause any issues personally when digesting 6.0

But personal handling aside<Since it's a easy route to judging people's tastes>

it did it's task, and did it well enough.
and by far could of been worse.
How worse.., about as bad as those who wished the Scions to die worse. Without weighing the consequences. Or the fact they devs could of written it better if they had more time.

<Gotta praise Ishikawa for making those adjustments to the plot and gaining approval so soon after their Story Trip>
[Regardless if you like the story or not]

Whilst you can say that they went back to insert a few nods to 6.0 or other instances.
They also tied other miscellaneous things, cutting down the amount of loose threads.

Zenos did what was expected of him.
With opinion remaining unchanged, or flip-flopping based on the person asked.

If Zenos ever came back, I find it highly unlikely that it'll be in his Garlean Body..,
Or His Ex-Imperial Prince History.
<Potential New Beginnings after a new Birth. Specially if it's a world we're pushing into a better direction.>

That said, it's unlikely we'll run into him.
<Unless that __ took an express trip/cut the line for reborn souls.>
[Would we even be that old near the end of the next 10 years? To have to run across a young "Zenos".
Or run into a Shard of Him in another realm.
Despite the fact he was Unrecognized enough by ancients to be allowed the idea of one gone forever, never known, and slipped through the cracks]

TLDR:
He did is job.., Wilk he stay an outsider forever, who knows.
Likely never to come back in the body/memory of a Garlean Prince though.

But it's a shame that Emets line dies. <Despite all the good Emet did though, LoL. jk>

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Kind of got ruined when coming out of the Dead Ends you're greeted by the most obnoxious villain and forced to let him help you and get forced into a 1v1 fight with him.

The final boss of Endwalker is literally a 1v1 fight with him???

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Forced to let him help you...or else we lose. You're complaining quite LITERALLY for nothing.
Zeno is our final battle in a 1v1...yeah! The guy who's been our foil since SB. The guys who's been waiting for us for all or ShB as well as all of EWs base story. The guy who went so far as to become a reaper and even plan to become Zodiark himself to fight us. Yes he was our final boss.
The very mirror of us, the player

Zenos was the best part of Endwalker for me. He far from ruined it, and I'd actually go as far to say as he redeemed it. This game hyped up Zodiark like no one else's business, and to reduce him to a pawn of the scheme of a PoS ancient who takes over the body of one of the most PoS whiny arseholes in SB really took the cake on an abysmal failure. Then we have mommy Hydaelyn who depending on your perspective could be considered a genocidal she-demon, or a messiah/shepherd whose foresight is only rivaled by her tendency to gamble and play Russian roulette with man's entire existence.

Zenos however, we always knew what we got with him. A being of insurmountable power rivaled only by the WoL. He never waivered, and was always consistent. He didn't fly across the great expanse to save the world, he did it to be side by side with the only friend he ever had, and the only enemy that could contest him. Zenos taught the WoL to seek out their limits, and then transcend them. That was in his words, "his gift to us". Sure, he was mostly one dimensional, but it's also all he needed. He was never meant to be this multi-faceted character filled with complexities like Emet, and it's also difficult to seem him being that way. He's a monster, a foe, and quite possibly the only character who sees deep down into the heart of the WoL and knows he/she is an adventurer above all.

Despite all the hatred this guy gets, I think he is absolutely fantastic. I hope we never see him again.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Zenos and Meteion did.
Zenos legit could have his proper death in Stormblood.
Meteion concept was good, but her presentation and development were terrible, specially for a 10 years arc final antagonist.

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I feel the same. What the story did to Varis was crap as Zenos didn’t care about Garlemald anyway.

I was fine with Meteiin. Just not the part with the Scions

Each to their own and all, but I really liked how Zenos was handled. He is not my fav villian, but he is an interesting one with his obsession with the WoL. Could it have been fleshed out a bit more? Sure, but thats just another sacrifice of EW concluding by 6.0. He had some great moments, such as the body swapping, Alisaie giving him a verbal thrashing and “That, I cannot deny.” It made for a great conclusion to the expansion, in my opinion.

The only thing I do not get is why people think he will be back. They have done that trick before. What would be the point? Especially as we have Zero, who is empathising just how cruel he was.

"And then Garlemald was destroyed off Screen"

ruined endwalker.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

The very mirror of us, the player

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He is your foil. Don't get it twisted, Zenos 100% does not resonate or act as a good mirror for every single player or player-character. And I really wish the Zenos simps would get that through their heads already.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

"And then Garlemald was destroyed off Screen"

ruined endwalker.

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Lets not start telling lies. Shadowbringers killed Garlemald both on and off screen while we were messing around in the First. Endwalker was just the result of the missed potential that Shadowbringers started.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Lets not start telling lies. Shadowbringers killed Garlemald both on and off screen while we were messing around in the First. Endwalker was just the result of the missed potential that Shadowbringers started.

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Let's not leave A Realm Reborn and Heavensward out of this either, where we're 'told' that Garlemald had a massive civil war off-screen resulting in Varis becoming Emperor, which practically sets up the bowling pins for Zenos to knock down.
A country suffering two civil wars in such a short amount of time will do any nation dirty.

so we're all in agreement that stormblood is the best expansion

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Originally Posted by Oizen

so we're all in agreement that stormblood is the best expansion

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Story-wise? Not at all, but I do believe it's unfairly maligned by a lot of people.

4.0 was mostly meh to me barring some few good moments like the Azim Steppe and a few bits of Yanxia, but it had really solid post-patches. I'd say everything put together, Stormblood's MSQ (4.0 and 4.x) might be equal to Heavensward's MSQ. (3.0 and 3.x)

The amount of things they could have done with this character but chose not to because they didn't care. It's like no one on the team touched a single Final Fantasy until they got hired to create this game and the ones they have were forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

He is your foil. Don't get it twisted, Zenos 100% does not resonate or act as a good mirror for every single player or player-character. And I really wish the Zenos simps would get that through their heads already.

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I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

The amount of things they could have done with this character but chose not to because they didn't care. It's like no one on the team touched a single Final Fantasy until they got hired to create this game and the ones they have were forgotten.

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Like what? What exactly are the plethora of things they could have done with him?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.


Like what? What exactly are the plethora of things they could have done with him?

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Have him hunt down and kill everyone precious to the WoL since the body possessing thing adds the possessed's memories as shown by Lahabrea in ARR. Take Zodiark's power for himself after Fandaniel is killed. Hell, change history so that he unwillingly becomes Zodiark's core after deciding to wipe out mankind to have his fight with the WoL on a mountain of corpses. Haunt the WoL with their own crimes by having the thoughts of their enemies screamed by their victims. Not be cast aside for the majority of EW like Emet-Selch absolutely would have been if ShB came out today. Not be reduced to a damn floor. Not have a solo instance that unlike Varis doesn't even get an Extreme version that could have acted as a gateway to an exploratory zone. Do something with the fact that he's the grandson of a damn Ancient. Add the damn side story to the game like everything else they should have as A) I ain't reading all that otherwise as it doesn't matter and B) it would have salvaged him at least.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

so we're all in agreement that stormblood is the best expansion

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Ill die on the hill that I think Stormblood is better then Heavensward.
And for me the Crown is still Shadowbringers.

But every expansion has something to like about it, even 2.0: ARR or even the currently criticized Endwalker
Nothing is perfect, but there is always a Diamond in the rough
--Individual Experiences may vary--

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

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Nah I emphasized the right word.
Not my fault you don't like what I'm saying.

Edit: More to the point, you seem to be (funnily enough) missing the point of using those characters as examples of how Zenos is a 'good foil.'
Smith, Sabertooth, Zod, and Sasuke are all four their own entity.
Neo, Wolverine, Superman, and Naruto are all four their own entity.
When each character is foiled against their counterpart, taking into account each character's own life experiences, beliefs, and motivations.

The Warrior of Light is an empty puppet whose motivations are entirely up to the individual player that controls their particular iteration of the WoL, regardless of what the writers try and rewrite in after the fact.
When you say Zenos is a foil, you are saying this in regards to your Warrior of Light. Your interpretation of the character, and your motivations inserted into them. Which does not apply to all WoLs.

Zenos isn't my favorite character, but I know he has a fan base so it was probably nice for them to see him. I could have gone without, but that said I still found Endwalker to be amazingly heart-warming and Zenos didn't change that for me.

10 out of 10, always recommend!

Zenos was annoying and I wish they'd let us just leave him there without fighting him, but for me it wasn't the thing that ruined EW. There were other things in the story that ruined it to a far worse degree.

That said, I really hope he's truly dead and gone this time.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

That said, I really hope he's truly dead and gone this time.

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The amount of fucking "look, he's dead, we're talking about how dead he is and how good everything is now that he's perma-dead, see? *wink wink nudge nudge*" the MSQ has had recently, coupled with Zero's repeated lines of how 'Zenos was traumatizing for me to be contracted with' and every smarmy line from Yoshida regarding his death, has me convinced they're going to asspull his return again somehow.
I'm probably just being paranoid, but the coy attitude they're taking with it doesn't feel right.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

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I think you are missing a very simple point on why these comparisons dont work: agent smith / sabertooth / zod / sasuke / etc. actually actively try to kill their counteparts.

Then we have Zenos. Stormblood Zenos was actually well received because he was actually menacing and the first villain to put the WoL in his/her place. Then Shadowbringers comes and Zenos just keeps... hanging around doing nothing? and Endwalker comes and he keeps hanging doing nothing again? Also even when he had the easy chance to kill the WoL he dont do it cos "I want muh battle with you bro".

I swear at any time I just wanted to give him his damm battle so he stop being a pain in the arse.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

The amount of fucking "look, he's dead, we're talking about how dead he is and how good everything is now that he's perma-dead, see? *wink wink nudge nudge*" the MSQ has had recently, coupled with Zero's repeated lines of how 'Zenos was traumatizing for me to be contracted with' and every smarmy line from Yoshida regarding his death, has me convinced they're going to asspull his return again somehow.
I'm probably just being paranoid, but the coy attitude they're taking with it doesn't feel right.

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I have the same sinking feeling that he'll return as well, the signs are there. Really, really hope we're wrong.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Forced to let him help you...or else we lose. You're complaining quite LITERALLY for nothing.
Zeno is our final boll in a 1v1...yeah! The guy who's been our foil since SB. The guys who's been waiting for us for all or ShB as well as all of EWs base story. The guy who went so far as to become a reaper and even plan to become Zodiark himself to fight us. Yes he was our final boss.
The very mirror of us, the player

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Mirror for you maybe lmao

Imagine actually liking him

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Literally what is the point of him existing

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Pure guess here:

SE had a different plot planned for 6.0 and Garlemald in which the Resonant would play a key role. Naturally, Zenos would need to be there as evil Emperor and Resonant Overlord.

Then they chose to push the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conclusion from 7.0 to 6.0 and had to chop off most of the intended Garlemald story. That left Zenos dangling with no real purpose for his resurrection in 4.x. So they moved him to a side antagonist for 6.0 since he had enough fans in the player base. Note we still never got any satisfying story about the Resonant and SE might as well have made Zenos a Garlean half blood that managed to end up with the Echo. It's not he and his dad had any love for each other.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

I have the same sinking feeling that he'll return as well, the signs are there. Really, really hope we're wrong.

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My next theory if he doesn't return 100%, is that they're going to have a dramatic helmet-flies-off reveal for Golbez showing him to be a piece of Zenos on the 13th.
Making Golbez the "splintered-off piece of Zenos' noble nature" or something along those lines.

I hope I'm wrong entirely.

For what I hated him in Srormblood I strangely liked him for in EW. I have no idea what flipped me around on that but it happened.

However it ended perfectly and he better stay dead or no dead period will ever matter ever again.

People are already set on Ystola being an immortal so any death from here on out will not have the emotional impact they think so they are better off not trying.

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

At the end of everything... " Kaiten removal ruined Endwalker for me!! "

As some have said..,
which I felt needed more highlighting.

If we had been given "Stormblood II: advance on garlemald", which tbh, the trailer was kinda a bait on switch/nod to their original plans(whilst hiding the true intent in sight. with the Eitherys nations finally being able to act out in their expected capabilities)

They also felt like avoiding a reception to a Sb-II.
Which like Jojoya said, it all just amplified the need to tie up the (Hydaelyn/Zodiark) Arc.
[It's like how some people compared JW, with KB. One had two more films, but needed to be Shortened due to unknowing if the material was enough. Whilst the other was extended into two films due to the screen time growing excessive of one film.]

[Hope whatever Worldline/Alt Universe, where we are setting up for Meteion after advancing into Garlemald had a good run of it, and a generally positive view. If they even had Ishikawa spawn meteion in her mind that is. Let alone the Void Chapters with the 13th, or all that we may have enjoyed in our world. But couldn't tell atm. ]

[I'll just turn my post back towards Zenos and reiterate my view on his role.

His memories and Bodies as a prince are long gone. Unfortunately left behind for those who wanted to drag the body back to the ship. But who knows what the remaining Fragments in the other shards are like. Since Zenos of the source is Half-ancient Half-Fragmented Source Dweller.

(edit:100% Resonant Viator)

Unless Hades pulled a Zeus in the other shards.
We'll see, but definitely will never rise again as the prince we used to know. Even if their Odd Aether Signature does show up reborn.]

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Ill die on the hill that I think Stormblood is better then Heavensward.
And for me the Crown is still Shadowbringers.

But every expansion has something to like about it, even 2.0: ARR or even the currently criticized Endwalker
Nothing is perfect, but there is always a Diamond in the rough
--Individual Experiences may vary--

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100% this. I remember finishing Heavensward and thinking... "That was it? Like its alright, but..." I think the 3.x patches where much better. Stormblood I was very surprised to see people say it was the worst. I enjoyed it more then HW, its cast has some of my favorite NPCs (Sadu, Hien, Fordola, Asahi ect) and Azim Steppe is my second favorite zone in the game. It may even overtake Endwalker as my second fav in time. Like you say though, individual experiences may vary, and the subjectivity of fiction is one of my favourite things about it.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I do think there's also merit to your point about the stakes. They definitely weren't universal at that juncture, but I still thought they were pretty high.

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I thought about this for a bit and I think it has something to do with the fact that there's baseline stakes for each expansion, and the fact that the first x0-x5 levels of MSQ are pretty much just world building.

Like ARR and post-ARR is just worldbuilding and the whole team is that "we're a meticulous shadow organization", so the slow and steady approach to things fit with the theme. The Company of Heroes quests were basically us asking for help for Titan, the Cartaneau Stone Vigil quests were us dealing with Ishgardian red tape. It all kinda made sense in the grand scheme of things.

Heavensward was pretty much the same. We couldn't afford to rush forward head first because we were the first outsiders in Ishgard in a very long time, and Eorzea was hunting us down. So the slow and steady approach to things kinda did make sense at the first half. The Matoya cave one also made sense just because of how eccentric the old girl was.

Stormblood was pretty much the same. We were doing covert ops under Garlemald territory, and the moment we actually tried to rush, we got our shit kicked in and we were pursued by Garlemald ever since. So it's pretty much Heavensward redux where we're begging for help from the locals since we didn't really have an army.

I think that all fell apart in Shadowbringers and Endwalker precisely because we were essentially worshipped in Shadowbringers and the Endwalker was literally about the end of the world.

Like Kholusia made sense since we were still doing covert ops. Ahm Areng kinda made sense because we were helping Alisae protect vulnerable people. Both places were essentially world-building for the first, and to establish stakes, cause we didn't really know about the world at all.

What didn't really make sense is what comes after that. Urianger and Y'shtola not having any pull with the Fae and the Viera kinda didn't really make sense in my head. Like Y'shtola literally burnt down entire outposts in the cinematic, so why didn't her influence extend towards the Viera? Urianger was the same, but I do kinda understand it since it's the Fae, but at the same time, I really thought Urianger can just pull some strings since he has lived with them for a couple of years and survived.

Like it genuinely feels like Urianger and Y'shtola portions of ShB wasn't really covert ops. They're both influential leaders of their respective factions and it rubbed me the wrong way when even they couldn't make us bypass the chores.

I'll just skip the Talon minecart section cause you know how I feel about it.

Endwalker as a whole shouldn't really have chores at all for the Eorzea portions. I can understand Sharlayan letting us run around and handle red tape sure, but not really Thavnair. It's the end of the world and it happens in the Source, so surely our name should have had merit in us bypassing everything. Like I could understand if there were chores in Elpis and Garlemald just because it was essentially the same themes as the "covert ops" bit, with us kinda being a "fake familiar" in Elpis and being peace corps in Garlemald, but the bunny moon part was just us sampling food, and clothes and stuff that really should've been their own reputation quests.

Idk. I think Shadowbringers and Endwalker kinda put us on the spotlight where we kinda shouldn't be doing meaningless intern work when the situation demands us to hold W and save the world. The intern and meticulous stuff made sense when were just the Scions and nobody knew who we were, or if we're actually being sneaky behind enemy lines, but it doesn't really make sense when we are literally worshipped as legends.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Have him hunt down and kill everyone precious to the WoL since the body possessing thing adds the possessed's memories as shown by Lahabrea in ARR.

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He was on his way to do that in Garlemald. The WoL stopped him despite occupying another body and having the odds heavily turned against them.

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Take Zodiark's power for himself after Fandaniel is killed. Hell, change history so that he unwillingly becomes Zodiark's core after deciding to wipe out mankind to have his fight with the WoL on a mountain of corpses.

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He planned on doing this as well prior to Fandaniel taking Zodiark for himself. Zenos planned on taking everything away from the WoL because he wanted their unbridled rage turned on him as they fought on a pile of ashes. Remember? If this actually came to fruition, there wouldn't much of a game left to play.

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Not have a solo instance that unlike Varis doesn't even get an Extreme version that could have acted as a gateway to an exploratory zone.

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This fight was always going to end in a solo instance, and because it is MSQ the difficulty wasn't going to be road blocker. You don't have to like it, but Zenos being an 8-man encounter doesn't fit the narrative that was set for his character. That was the Shinryu encounter back in SB.

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Do something with the fact that he's the grandson of a damn Ancient. Add the damn side story to the game like everything else they should have as A) I ain't reading all that otherwise as it doesn't matter and B) it would have salvaged him at least.

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Again. Like what? It is perfectly fine that how well Zenos was done as a character is subjective. No one is going to get anywhere trying to convince those who hate him to like him, and those who like him to hate him. And they actually did do something, now that I think about it. His grandfather built Garlemald and the imperial army. The grandson reduced it to ash. Both happen off screen.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

Nah I emphasized the right word.
Not my fault you don't like what I'm saying.

Edit: More to the point, you seem to be (funnily enough) missing the point of using those characters as examples of how Zenos is a 'good foil.'
Smith, Sabertooth, Zod, and Sasuke are all four their own entity.
Neo, Wolverine, Superman, and Naruto are all four their own entity.
When each character is foiled against their counterpart, taking into account each character's own life experiences, beliefs, and motivations.

The Warrior of Light is an empty puppet whose motivations are entirely up to the individual player that controls their particular iteration of the WoL, regardless of what the writers try and rewrite in after the fact.
When you say Zenos is a foil, you are saying this in regards to your Warrior of Light. Your interpretation of the character, and your motivations inserted into them. Which does not apply to all WoLs.

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The motivations of the WoL doesn't change the deeds he or she has accomplished throughout the MSQ, or the feelings that the supporting characters have towards them. These are not invalidated simply because you say so. That isn't how it works. Besides, YOU are the one that said Zenos was a foil. I simply just agreed with you.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'll bite a bit.

I don't think Zenos ruined Endwalker. I think a lot of people really like him, and enjoyed seeing his conclusion (please god, let that be his conclusion). I'll admit, him showing up and having a couple of the best quotes in the expansion doesn't hurt as well:

"I assume this is your prey. But why does it still live? Surely it is no match for you"

"I would have thought you to be above something so banal as despair. Am I mistaken?"

Especially after 20 hours of "oh woe is us", having him just laugh it off was pretty funny.

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Agreed.

I thought in SB he was a boring Saturday morning cartoon villain (you fight him, HAVE to beat him or the solo duty fails, but then he just beats you in a cutscene; until he merges with a super powerful Primal dragon, and only THEN can you beat him? really?), but in EW, they actually made his character what they SHOULD HAVE in SB. He had nuance - you don't have to like it, but he DID - and his positions were such that they made sense in a very nihilistic way - and there are people that ARE that nihilistic. The conclusion was the best part, though. When everyone's down and the situation seems hopeless, he basically flies to the end of the universe and shatters the wall of a pocket dimension to come in and ask you why you haven't already killed the final boss. Dude's like "You kill gods and stuff, why is this thing still alive, man?". I wasn't expecting ZENOS of all people to come in and be my personal cheerleader, but the best part is: It was totally in character.

The final fight with him - again, some people hated it, some people loved it - but was completely in character and closed out his story. For a man who wants nothing but to fight an equal and face death, battling to the death at the edge of existence with that infinite plane and distant sun as backdrop is the way to go.

As a person who hated Zenos in SB and the bits of him in ShB, I thought EW is what he should have been all along and was like "WHERE WAS THIS FOR THE LAST TWO EXPANSIONS?!", and the conclusion was great.

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No, Zenos did NOT ruin EW, and EW wasn't "ruined" at all. I do agree with Payotz, though, that there were pacing issues. The worst offender was Labyrinthos at the end of the game before going to Ultima Thul. That was the only place I felt the pacing was SUPER jarring and just completely conflicted with the narrative at the time that we were racing against the clock to save the world/universe.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

I think you are missing a very simple point on why these comparisons dont work: agent smith / sabertooth / zod / sasuke / etc. actually actively try to kill their counteparts.

Then we have Zenos. Stormblood Zenos was actually well received because he was actually menacing and the first villain to put the WoL in his/her place. Then Shadowbringers comes and Zenos just keeps... hanging around doing nothing? and Endwalker comes and he keeps hanging doing nothing again? Also even when he had the easy chance to kill the WoL he dont do it cos "I want muh battle with you bro".

I swear at any time I just wanted to give him his damm battle so he stop being a pain in the arse.

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Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants. As far what he is doing while the WoL is busy with their endeavors? Who knows. We know that he tells us that he continues to hone his blade until the time for their rematch comes. That is all we know, and because of his sole motivation, that is all we need to know.

A villain like Emet is different because we know that what he wants is the rejoining, to bring the world that was stripped of him back. "Perfection", as he puts it and the resurrection of his fallen God. His target is not the WoL specifically, but the WoL is standing in his way. These kind of motivations do not belong to Zenos. It was more in his character to foil the plans of his father because he wasn't going to allow something like the Black Rose take his prey from him, and by doing so he essentially prevented the 8th calamity from ever taken place. Then in his efforts to get his match with the WoL, he also has a major hand in stopping Meteion and the Final Days. Zenos shifts entirely away from the antagonist role, but still remains a villain. Like I told the last poster, you don't have to like it and I'm not going to try and make someone like Zenos who doesn't. I'm just explaining my PoV on things. That is all.

No. And I, in fact, agree with this post from Reddit:
https://i.imgur.com/14bMnU0.png

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants.

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It's basically like the Joker in Batman. Crazy different quality of writing across all the various Batman comic runs and cartoon episodes, but here and there they really do him right and focus on his character and his relationship with Batman. How, to the Joker, Bruce Wayne is the mask. How the Joker KNOWS Batman is Bruce Wayne but won't ever tell anyone, because that's not the game to him. The game to him is matching wits with "The Bat", trying to get Batman to break character, even trying to get Batman to break his own rule and kill the Joker. One disturbing comic has him take Batman and the Bat family where he's got all their faces wrapped in bandages and their faces cut off their skulls (the skin) and sitting in a pot on the table in front of Bruce, causing him to think that he literally cut of their faces (something that happened to the Joker in this timeline/comic run. But then (spoiler alert) it's revealed that those were just masks he threw into the boiling pot and all the Bat family (and their faces) were okay, because the Joker's goal wasn't to actually harm them, it was to win his personal game with Bruce. Joker has even saved Batman from death (more than once) because he wants to be the one that defeats Batman. And he doesn't want to just kill him - as he's had ample opportunity - he wants to BEAT him.

It's one of the things that makes the Joker, when written well, an interesting and multifaceted villain across the Batman multiverse, since his motivation isn't just "get lots of money" or "get lots of power" or "kill Batman". And even with the vastly different quality the character has been written at over the better part of a century at this point, it's been pretty consistent across all his incarnations, including when he broke Superman instead in Injustice.

Zenos is like that.

His motivation isn't "kill the WoL" or "make the WoL suffer". His motivation is "good fite" since he feels completely meaningless otherwise in the world and his life. All his actions after his resurrection (and arguably before it) are consistently in service to this objective. And, interestingly, he DOES have a tiny bit of character growth - when Alisaie says he won't listen but the only way to actually get what he wants is to actually help people for a change, it actually gets through to him. Even if selfish, he's not stupid, and when he realizes she's right, he does that very thing. He even DOES show more intelligence and rationality than most when he points out himself that his evil and cruelty would be no less evil and cruel if he "had a good reason" for it, piercing what is often an irrational delusion people have that evil actions might somehow be less evil (or less harmful) if they have have a good reason behind them. Ironically, Zenos does a quicker and more moral takedown of faux morality than basically anyone, and does so in such a dismissive, offhanded way to point out JUST HOW faux it is.

Like the Joker, he's a character that sees the thin veneer of his reality more truly than most. But unlike the WoL and Scions, whose answer to this is hope, his own answer is nihilism; distinct from Meteon's despair, but occupying a similar domain of "not evil for the sake of it". In a way, it makes him a better villain than most, since his objective isn't just to be a bad guy for the hell of it.

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Note: I'm not saying he was the best and most perfect villain of all time.

But I am saying he's better than a lot of those we've had in MMOs and fiction. His SB era incarnation was pretty crap, but EW made him into an actual character AND did so in a way that made his prior showings still in character, leading to a consistency. And his end was a good and fitting resolution for him.

He was a fine character for what he was, and I hope we never see him again as his end was what it should be.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

No. And I, in fact, agree with this post from Reddit:

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Not completely, but I do mostly agree as well.