I don't know what can honestly be done for Final Fantasy XIV at this point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How many players would end up happy that their class/job is fun to play if it also meant they were being excluded from content because it performed poorly compared to the rest?
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This already happens. This is what people like you dont get. IT ALREADY HAPPENS, we have this fucked up homogenized mess and they still cant balance their game.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

100% this! I hate custom builds in MMOs because people still force that one best meta build on everyone and if you don't play that meta build, you get kicked out of groups. Sure, you can have a custom build for solo stuff but forget about it if you want to do group content. Source: I also play ESO and GW2 where custom builds and heavily enforced meta builds exist. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that crap in XIV.

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This is the main reason why custom builds could never work. There are meta builds, and then there's everything else. Want to do Raids or Strikes(Trials)? Too bad, you need that meta build or you're likely not getting in the group. Trying to heal or buff without an optimal build? Get out we can get somebody better.

As much as I love GW2, I won't deny the amount of pigeonholing that the playerbase does for anything that's considered high level content. For a good example of a class that's completely pigeonholed, Druid. You are healing/supporting as a Druid, period. You will not do damage builds, you will not do anything less than optimal, and you WILL do every mechanic because only a few people need to know them and the rest of the group is too lazy to learn how to do A SIMPLE MECHANIC THAT TAKES LESS THAN 5 MINUTES TO LEARN. Sincerely, a player who was stuck in Druid jail for 4 years.

Skill trees or custom builds come up every now and again and every time it has to be said that no matter what the only build that will be acceptable is the optimal one. Doesn't matter if all of them can clear content or even perform well in the most difficult content, the community will insist on everyone following the optimal build at all times or they will be removed from parties. Even with the slight difference in performance we have with the jobs now there are some that are excluded from PF simply because they don't perform as well as others, not because they cannot clear.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I agree with the first statement since it's pretty much where classes/jobs in all MMORPGs end up.

The problem comes from the last.

How many players would end up happy that their class/job is fun to play if it also meant they were being excluded from content because it performed poorly compared to the rest?

Very few would if they play content where performance matters. Thus the balance hole gets dug.

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lmao literally who cares when you can easily play any single job in this game at max level

opinions from one-trick ponies should be massively discounted

this isn't like lost ark where you have to cough up real money to level another job to raid ready level

If you aren't doing Savage or clearing Savage week 1-2, you shouldn't be concerned about balance in this game at all
What does it matter if a certain job is worse than another if you aren't doing that content at that level

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

lmao literally who cares when you can easily play any single job in this game at max level

opinions from one-trick ponies should be massively discounted

this isn't like lost ark where you have to cough up real money to level another job to raid ready level

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Well, in that case your opinion is massively discounted because your one trick is being a forum troll. Maybe two tricks since your other is obviously an rmt bot.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

If you aren't doing Savage or clearing Savage week 1-2, you shouldn't be concerned about balance in this game at all
What does it matter if a certain job is worse than another if you aren't doing that content at that level

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You gravely underestimate the degree to which people will curate PF groups based on job performance. A difference of 1-2% is enough to get you turned away from a surprising number of groups.

It seems to me like a lot of these complaints are things that have been in the game since time immemorial. Not saying these are things that do not need addressing or could use a shake up, but I do not know why people suddenly think the game is as good as dead because of it.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

It seems to me like a lot of these complaints are things that have been in the game since time immemorial. Not saying these are things that do not need addressing or could use a shake up, but I do not know why people suddenly think the game is as good as dead because of it.

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Because for some reason it's currently "hip" to be a doomer and they're all trying to change the game into what they imagine it should be. If I didn't know this was the FFXIV forums, I could have sworn I walked into GW2's subreddit pre-EoD (imagine this in a full subreddit where you get downvoted for saying ANYTHING good about the game).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because for some reason it's currently "hip" to be a doomer and they're all trying to change the game into what they imagine it should be. If I didn't know this was the FFXIV forums, I could have sworn I walked into GW2's subreddit pre-EoD (imagine this in a full subreddit where you get downvoted for saying ANYTHING good about the game).

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The XIV forums have been doom and gloom since the start. Even 2.0 didn't improve that. There's a reason there was a running thread titled "the many deaths of ffxiv". Pretty sure the OP of that just got bored of it. They still play though.

As much as I'd like to say no MMO ever truly dies, there was one worthwhile one that actually did the unthinkable and managed to die.
Rest in peace, Warhammer Online.

"I look through the forums and everyday..."

I found your problem.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I would absolutely hate this approach.

So I have to specc my WHM for content A, AST for content B, SCH for C and SGE for D and switch the job depending on the content I want to play?

But I only ever want to play WHM. And a reskill before I start doing content is cumbersome at best.

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This is just my opinion, but I think good games sometimes force players to leave their comfort zones. It doesn't have to be much, it doesn't have to be often, but there should be something new, something different that players have to experience.

This doesn't just apply to playing different jobs, but also things like the relic where everyone wants the same grind repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

As much as I'd like to say no MMO ever truly dies, there was one worthwhile one that actually did the unthinkable and managed to die.
Rest in peace, Warhammer Online.

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Star wars galaxies, Tera, wildstar, etc.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You gravely underestimate the degree to which people will curate PF groups based on job performance. A difference of 1-2% is enough to get you turned away from a surprising number of groups.

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Players who are unable to understand that a 1-2% difference in week 1 isn't what is preventing them from clearing in week 16 after they've geared nearly 20 ilvls past min should not be who jobs are balanced for or designed around, and especially not people who do not even do savage whining that "their job isn't good" in it. If they are and continue to be, there is nothing that will tangibly be able to happen in the future regarding job design.

People in here crying about "meta skillbuild" ironically out themselves as bad players. Cause meta "builds" already exist in this game: materia and rotation. How many of you do the BiS rotation? 2-3%? 98% of the games content is made in the way someone spamming 2 buttons and is semi-afk can complete it, why cry about "meta builds" if the game can already be completed by being completly suboptimal

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Star wars galaxies, Tera, wildstar, etc.

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Wildstar alone is a shame. Was a pretty fun game and had the best housing I've seen in ANY MMO.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

lmao literally who cares when you can easily play any single job in this game at max level

opinions from one-trick ponies should be massively discounted

this isn't like lost ark where you have to cough up real money to level another job to raid ready level

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For the "just play all the jobs" idea to even work, we'd need (to start, at the very least) a gear progression setup that wasn't timegated and cockblocked by the devs nonstop. The moment you try and get anything better than crafted gear or dungeon gear (lol) the game starts timegating you like crazy at pretty much every level, even for the stuff that isn't BiS. Want raid gear? Once a week at best. Want the good tome gear? Weekly cap on how many tomes you can earn. There's also the time investment of leveling a job to cap, the sheer chore-factor of it, and the matter of personal preference. Saying this as someone with every combat job at 90; I'm not touching SMN in its current form, no matter how "optimal" it becomes in the content I enjoy, because I don't enjoy it and I'm not about to spend weeks gearing a job I hate. It's that simple. I'd literally rather take a nap IRL than deal with that. The selling point of the job system is that you can play every job in the game, not that you have to. And that message is seen in every job progression system in the game. A lot of things would have to change for us to feasibly reach the sort of "screw balance, just play everything" goal you're talking about here, unless your only goal is buying 610 crafted gear and chilling in content where balance doesn't matter.

Bit of a pipe dream now, but I wish we had actual teams dedicated to each job. And those teams talked to each other, and to the raid teams, to create an actual holistic team based experience. Instead it's really obvious that they have like 4 guys responsible for every job in the game, so we get ez homogenization design choices and imbalance issues that make people question whether or not the jobs were even playtested.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

People in here crying about "meta skillbuild" ironically out themselves as bad players. Cause meta "builds" already exist in this game: materia and rotation. How many of you do the BiS rotation? 2-3%? 98% of the games content is made in the way someone spamming 2 buttons and is semi-afk can complete it, why cry about "meta builds" if the game can already be completed by being completly suboptimal

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mfw "materia" when that makes even less difference than 1%

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

For the "just play all the jobs" idea to even work, we'd need (to start, at the very least) a gear progression setup that wasn't timegated and cockblocked by the devs nonstop. The moment you try and get anything better than crafted gear or dungeon gear (lol) the game starts timegating you like crazy at pretty much every level, even for the stuff that isn't BiS. Want raid gear? Once a week at best. Want the good tome gear? Weekly cap on how many tomes you can earn. There's also the time investment of leveling a job to cap, the sheer chore-factor of it, and the matter of personal preference. Saying this as someone with every combat job at 90; I'm not touching SMN in its current form, no matter how "optimal" it becomes in the content I enjoy. The selling point of the job system is that you can play every job in the game, not that you have to. And that message is seen in every job progression system in the game. A lot of things would have to change for us to feasibly reach the sort of "screw balance, just play everything" goal you're talking about here, unless your only goal is buying 610 crafted gear and chilling in content where balance doesn't matter.

Bit of a pipe dream now, but I wish we had actual teams dedicated to each job. And those teams talked to each other, and to the raid teams, to create an actual holistic team based experience. Instead it's really obvious that they have like 4 guys responsible for every job in the game, so we get ez homogenization design choices and imbalance issues that make people question whether or not the jobs were even playtested.

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Yes, I agree. Which is why even without housing raiders can be trapped to sub for the game for months (inb4 "BiS doesn't matter" when it's literally required for Ultimates)

I love the game for what it is, but..
https://gifsec.com/wp-content/upload...orn-gif-47.gif

Nothing can be done when your director doesnt care anymore

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Nothing can be done when your director doesnt care anymore

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it's pretty obvious. I don't really care for him either.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If steam chart numbers are to be believed that's not exactly working out for SE.

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It's not exactly ideal, but so long as Square continues to refuse to release their exact concurrent sub count statistics the Steam equivalent is all we can hope to rely upon. It's either incomplete and also possibly faulty information, or complete blind faith.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

As much as I'd like to say no MMO ever truly dies, there was one worthwhile one that actually did the unthinkable and managed to die.
Rest in peace, Warhammer Online.

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My stance is that MMOs on the whole die rather slowly. They don't keel over, instead they hemorrhage and exsanguinate over excruciatingly long periods. As a rule, I actually kind of believe the MMO genre is in a bit of a slump right now.

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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They seem to only want to play this game and are upset because it's not holding them anymore. Imagine that, being so foolish as to think you can only play one MMO, one videogame your entire life.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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That says more about the state of the MMO genre, sadly.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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Nothing is gained by turning this into a "my MMO is better than yours" pissing match, friend. Final Fantasy XIV is up there, alongside WoW, and I'd argue Guild Wars 2 and also possibly The Elder Scrolls Online as relatively popular and active MMORPGs. Oh, and Black Desert as well. Lord of the Rings Online is doing rather well for itself from what I've heard. No MMO is going to be for everybody, but comments like these only lead to scenarios where we all lose so maybe let's not do that?

I'm not interested in going and doing the research to find what each one is in which echelon, but each one I listed is healthy enough to remain afloat right now so the specifics aren't currently relevant. But a bodacious declaration of Final Fantasy XIV's supremacy accomplishes precious little in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

That says more about the state of the MMO genre, sadly.

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Sure, but I just wish we could stop with the melodramatic post titles. The game is overall fine. There is a lot of content I find boring and don't do, so I don't do it. There's content I like, which is why I'm still here paying a sub.

I guess "Suggestions for content improvements" isn't quite as interesting a title though.

But all these titles like FFXIV is on it's deathbed are just a bit much.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

It's not exactly ideal, but so long as Square continues to refuse to release their exact concurrent sub count statistics the Steam equivalent is all we can hope to rely upon. It's either incomplete and also possibly faulty information, or complete blind faith.

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There is no real reason to believe the majority of non-steam players behave differently than their steam counterparts. So while there may be a minor difference the overall trend should be accurate.

Game is bleeding users. I don't see how it could retain any atm. Just crossing fingers this is because major changes are being made for 7.0

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Skill trees or custom builds come up every now and again and every time it has to be said that no matter what the only build that will be acceptable is the optimal one. Doesn't matter if all of them can clear content or even perform well in the most difficult content, the community will insist on everyone following the optimal build at all times or they will be removed from parties. Even with the slight difference in performance we have with the jobs now there are some that are excluded from PF simply because they don't perform as well as others, not because they cannot clear.

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And yet when you wait for PF to fill you're happy to get anyone after enough minutes have passed. And we only "need" balance for the first few days of current savage anyway, yet the rest is left with unfulfilling jobs. I dunno. Not really ideal.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Nothing is gained by turning this into a "my MMO is better than yours" pissing match, friend. Final Fantasy XIV is up there, alongside WoW, and I'd argue Guild Wars 2 and also possibly The Elder Scrolls Online as relatively popular and active MMORPGs. Oh, and Black Desert as well. Lord of the Rings Online is doing rather well for itself from what I've heard. No MMO is going to be for everybody, but comments like these only lead to scenarios where we all lose so maybe let's not do that?

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I don't see where I did that. I honestly don't care what MMOs people play - play what's fun for you! I play actually unpopular games that I personally enjoy and don't care who else likes it or not.

But so many posts here act like the game is dead/hopeless/unpopular - I'm surprised these posters didn't turn into dynamis despair blobs by now.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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It's not. Vocal fans insist that it is and the marketing team keep referring to it as 'critically acclaimed' but it's sitting alongside WoW, ESO and GW2 which are enjoying similar amounts of success. As it stands, a significant portion of this game's community aren't playing the game - they're heavily altering the game files and using it for ERP. It'd be interesting to see what the number of active players would be if mods were to banned altogether!

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They seem to only want to play this game and are upset because it's not holding them anymore. Imagine that, being so foolish as to think you can only play one MMO, one videogame your entire life.

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It's been pointed out many, many times that the people raising concerns do play other games and do take breaks. They're not expecting FFXIV to keep them entertained 24/7 - they simply want more content to be added to their tastes that has some staying power.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I don't see where I did that. I honestly don't care what MMOs people play - play what's fun for you! I play actually unpopular games that I personally enjoy and don't care who else likes it or not.

But so many posts here act like the game is dead/hopeless/unpopular - I'm surprised these posters didn't turn into dynamis despair blobs by now.

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I see your point, but I personally disagree based on how I typically conduct myself. If a poster isn't being outright antagonistic, I'm usually not overly concerned about their tone. I assume all claims made therein are opinion-based to stem conflict, and ignore any I don't see any advantage in combatting. I imagine the general atmosphere around here may well improve if we all put a little effort into avoiding outright what we cannot influence.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They seem to only want to play this game and are upset because it's not holding them anymore. Imagine that, being so foolish as to think you can only play one MMO, one videogame your entire life.

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Once more, I feel inclined to point out that remarks like these don't exactly diffuse the supposed tense atmosphere of these forums. I see many seeking an improvement of attitudes, but how can one expect such when words such as "foolish" (a term with an explicitly negative context) and men of straw are being tossed in the direction of other users like live grenades?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not. Vocal fans insist that it is and the marketing team keep referring to it as 'critically acclaimed' but it's sitting alongside WoW, ESO and GW2 which are enjoying similar amounts of success.



It's been pointed out many, many times that the people raising concerns do play other games and do take breaks. They're not expecting FFXIV to keep them entertained 24/7 - they simply want more content to be added to their tastes that has some staying power.

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I play ESO and it is not at the same level of FFXIV's success. Financially it makes a middling amount of money, even when they bundle cash-shop only cosmetics into $80 USD Loot Crate bundles as the only way to get them, and mounts that can cost $300-$500 USD to get out of said loot boxes.

Moreover, reaction to the story and expansions is usally...well, not much hype. It's fine to good to many people, but that's the general sentiment these days.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

People like you should simply be told "suck it up" by the devs. They NEED to play to the strength of effortlessly swapping between jobs and ignore people like you. You want to only play WHM? Okay you can only play 25% of the content, want the other 75%? Play the other 3 healers too. You dont want that? Thats on you.

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This is almost a guaranteed way of driving players away from both content and the game as a whole. People don't like feeling forced to do something, especially if it isn't what they enjoy. Players who enjoy Dancer but loathe Bard aren't suddenly going to "suck it up" because Bard happens to be better in say, P11 but worse in P12. They'll either stick with Bard or not bother with the tier on the whole because they no longer can play the job they like consistently without constantly being asked to switch or locked out of parties entirely. Go ask any veteran player of White Mage, Monk or Samurai how much they liked being asked to play Astro, Dragoon or Ninja during the heydays of Stormblood.

Putting aside player enjoyment, the loot system doesn't actually allow for job swapping to this extent either. You aren't going to play Ninja over Dragoon if the former has crafted i610 while the other is BiS. And yet, you can't gear both in a timely matter where it would ever be a factor. Getting the weapon and body alone takes weeks, and that's if you're in a static. PF? Good luck. They'd have to completely overhaul both the loot system and gear progression, which we all know SE is loathe to even consider.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Once more, I feel inclined to point out that remarks like these don't exactly diffuse the supposed tense atmosphere of these forums. I see many seeking an improvement of attitudes, but how can one expect such when words such as "foolish" (a term with an explicitly negative context) and men of straw are being tossed in the direction of other users like live grenades?

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Because any reasonable person would just take a break and not continually sub to a game that they just don't feel holds their interest anymore. I understand wanting them to make changes, but still subbing to a game you don't like playing because "I want them to make changes" is not only ridiculous because money talks more than anything in this day and age, but also because it means you're spending money that could be spent on something else that gives you enjoyment. Do you still have a subscription to magazines or streaming services you don't use or like anymore?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because any reasonable person would just take a break and not continually sub to a game that they just don't feel holds their interest anymore. I understand wanting them to make changes, but still subbing to a game you don't like playing because "I want them to make changes" is not only ridiculous because money talks more than anything in this day and age, but also because it means you're spending money that could be spent on something else that gives you enjoyment. Do you still have a subscription to magazines or streaming services you don't use or like anymore?

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I think for some on this sub, based on my observations - being upset and complaining is worth the monthly sub fee for them. Some spend an inordinate amount of their precious lifespan on finding new ways to be upset here.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I think for some on this sub, based on my observations - being upset and complaining is worth the monthly sub fee for them. Some spend an inordinate amount of their precious lifespan on finding new ways to be upset here.

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It's not mentally healthy for them to be doing that, and just makes them look like they need a therapist. They need to find something to do that they enjoy doing instead of living in their negativity all the time.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

People act like this game isn't currently at the top of the heap for MMOs lol.

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World of Warcraft took back its crown (and most of its players) a while ago, my dude.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

World of Warcraft took back its crown (and most of its players) a while ago, my dude.

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Source? Recent articles on MassivelyOP about Blizzard's financials are that it's player counts are rapidly falling from it's recent peak.

Either way, even if XIV is #2, it's still generally at the top of the pile.

https://massivelyop.com/2023/04/26/a...zzard-q1-2023/

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I am not convinced that Massively OP can be trusted as a valid source, they are a known malefactor of World of Warcraft. Besides, Dragonflight didn't truly need to become a smash hit to keep pace it just needed to hold people's attention which so far it has. Even if Blizzard is far from it's glory days, and it has been for a while, with Square refusing to release the concurrent subscription statistics for Final Fantasy XIV as Blizzard has in the past we'll never be able to accurately make the supposition that Final Fantasy XIV has surpassed it in playercount.

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MassivelyOP provided images of Blizzard's official financials that are showing the number drop. They do seem to generally dislike Blizzard, there is a hefty drop in their monthly active users.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Did you not just say that you weren't being denigrative towards others? Why the sudden change? What evidence do you proffer that this is what people are doing, and if you have none to offer why make a baseless and inflammatory insinuation to begin with? I wonder if maybe I ought to just stop making the attempt at reconciliation like another poster suggested, the nice approach isn't really getting me anywhere.

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1. I didn't name and shame anyone in particular. I'm sure if my comment applies tot hem that is for them to decide. My "evidence" is people who have hundreds or even thousands of posts without a single nice thing to say about the game. You only have 50 posts and recently joined the forums, but you'll probably see trends among posters over time and can draw your own conclusions. So unlike some posts about me where people just say random things to lots of upvotes simply because I enjoy FFXIV, here you can actually see documented trends on some poster habits. Also telling that it only took a few weeks that you are considering not being nice to others - I guess it just goes with the territory.