Relic News - 6.45

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

>Implying that any relic sans the original 2.0 ARR relic that involved Hard mode primals had you working hard.

The term you're looking for is 'time consuming / random for the sake of slowing progression and not for any kind of actual challenge.' Plenty of the steps of old relics are even more monotonous than grinding tomes are. Jumping between two different FATEs in Outer la noscea killing two bosses that had absolutely zero chance to kill you to get that atma of the lion with a massive horde of players zerging them was truly engaging content.

Or spamming the exact same instance 1000x because it's the 'optimal' route was truly riveting. Least with the current relic you could challenge yourself to entirely farm the 1500 tomes entirely off of extreme trials & savage new player bonuses if you wanted to make this relic chain the hardest relic chain ever.

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Dunno what to tell you, I enjoyed the ARR grind. I just like that type of progression. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

My opinion but I feel doing FATEs with some form of RNG attached to it is more engaging than doing the same dailies that we do every day. It felt like more effort was involved than the gutted version of a relic grind we have now where everything is basically handed to you. If that's fun or rewarding enough for you, cool. Go enjoy it. Let the rest of us voice the valid complaints we have. For me, it's incredibly boring and is honestly making me consider just going full force on savage for next tier just to avoid doing it, which is really sad as relics were/are my favorite part of the game.

I'm also just irritated in general that it was said this grind would be similar to HWs and none of that has really come to fruition. When I think of HW, I don't think of exchanging tomestomes for every single step.

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I honestly expected to be accused of strawmaning. If you like fate grinding that's nice and all but if you think fates is hard work and not auto-piloting to the max then this is why the devs dont listen to you.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I honestly expected to be accused of strawmaning. If you like fate grinding that's nice and all but if you think fates is hard work and not auto-piloting to the max then this is why the devs dont listen to you.

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Glad I could prove your random assumption wrong. C:

Let's just meet in the middle and say both are absolutely mindless and the devs should create something that isn't or at least incorporate harder aspects into the grind at later steps. As it stands right now, they're nothing else other than a new tome weapon and don't deserve the title of relic.

ill just copy/paste what i put in another thread on the topic xD:

When they listen to people who don't like relic grinds, this is what we get.

Also this isn't just an issue of it being "lazy" or "daily roulette" grind. It is also just bad game design. They already use the previous tome for a lot of avenues already. There's a reason why crafting mats/pots/food went up in price when 6.35 released another tome step. They are hesitant to mess with the economy when it comes to bumping savage out a week, but don't have an issue with toying with crafting prices by funneling more things into tomes?

Wonderful. At least one expansion without stupid relic grinds in endless zones. It’s nice to finally have a change.

Surprising? Nay.

Disappointing? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

Wonderful. At least one expansion without stupid relic grinds in endless zones. It’s nice to finally have a change.

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Let me correct that for you

"wonderful, at least one expansion that you dont have to do anything at all"

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

So much for all the white knights saying "it's only the 1st step guys !!" "it's only the 2nd step guys !!"

a la wow

"it's only alpha guys"
"its only beta guys"
"its only release guys"
"its only x.5 guys"
etc

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This was never my take, but I still just don't care. Such a massive time sink for what is essentially glamour isn't the best use of my time in game, nor is it any fun. I always think of light farming with the zodiac and atma weapons as some of the worst requirements ever conceived to progress a relic weapon.

I'd much rather target primal weapons, and find they would be a better alternate BiS weapon to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This was never my take, but I still just don't care. Such a massive time sink for what is essentially glamour isn't the best use of my time in game, nor is it any fun. I always think of light farming with the zodiac and atma weapons as some of the worst requirements ever conceived to progress a relic weapon.

I'd much rather target primal weapons, and find they would be a better alternate BiS weapon to obtain.

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Didn't you just make a fictional grind for no reason not too long ago just because you didn't have anything to do? How is a relic not better than that?

i like tge concept of it... what i dont like is what content are we supposed to do while getting the relic weapon? daily roulette.... aka sastasha, crysalis, msq dungeon, alexander and especially crystal tower over and over and over again is not engaging

edit: i forgot expert roulette. this one is fun because its lvl 90 and the two.... uh nevermind, its not much better than the rest after 2-3 weeks

Should just mail them to you on patch day, and save the trouble.

There are a lot of people paying a lot of money to complain about a game they don't like on the forum, seems like.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

There are a lot of people paying a lot of money to complain about a game they don't like on the forum, seems like.

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Free login, baby!

But on a serious note, a lot of people do truly enjoy this game, and it's hard to see something you've enjoyed in the past going in a bad direction. And so complaints are made. While I'm not a fan of how a lot of people here voice their complaints, they are at least providing feedback that could possibly get back to the devs at some point for review and consideration.

Hope can keep people around for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

There are a lot of people paying a lot of money to complain about a game they don't like on the forum, seems like.

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FFXIV excels at one thing only: it’s a social game that’s easier to set up than VRChat and Second Life with just as much player-created content. For many people, this is their first “metaverse” and it’s far more immersive than Discord. The experience is even better when you combine the two.

But it’s obvious that no one here (you included) actually likes the gameplay in this tired old horse of a game. If you did, you’d be upset that Square Enix keeps dropping the ball. But many people (me included) don’t play for the gameplay. So, if you’re not like us, and you’re fine with FFXIV turning into dust…why are YOU here?

https://files.catbox.moe/3wg4pu.png

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Really hoping that's a mistranslation. As much as I don't mind just getting tomestones, it's also a bit...well, boring.

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If that original Japanese text is accurate, then I’d say the translation is correct. (I’m a Japanese translator, for what it’s worth.)

Just a hunch from what he said, nothing more, but I get the feeling that the “no major changes” part means “poetics instead of astronomy” and “causality for the next step”. He seemed to want to be coy about the exact currency you would use but not about the process being similar.

I don't believe at this point we should be entertaining people who unironically favor getting relics via roulettes. They can go buy a crafted weapon or the actual tome weapon on their own time. Those of us who wanted a relic first got laughed at in our faces when we went from Bozja level storytelling associated with it to Hildibrand and that set the pace for every letdown that came afterwards.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

~

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Totally agree! The devs are so thoughtful and inclusive, they balanced it so we can still finish the story with a severe degenerative cognitive disease. And they don't add things that might surprise or scare us; we can take as much time off as we want and trust that the familiar anachronistic gameplay will still be waiting for us when we return like a warm blanket. <3

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I don't believe at this point we should be entertaining people who unironically favor getting relics via roulettes. They can go buy a crafted weapon or the actual tome weapon on their own time. Those of us who wanted a relic first got laughed at in our faces when we went from Bozja level storytelling associated with it to Hildibrand and that set the pace for every letdown that came afterwards.

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Not sure that's entirely true, part of why you get laughed at is because you unironically have people saying things like 'if this was a fate grind it would be more engaging'.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I don't believe at this point we should be entertaining people who unironically favor getting relics via roulettes. They can go buy a crafted weapon or the actual tome weapon on their own time. Those of us who wanted a relic first got laughed at in our faces when we went from Bozja level storytelling associated with it to Hildibrand and that set the pace for every letdown that came afterwards.

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That's good point. All past relics had some kind of story. ARR was recreating this fabled, legendary weapons. HW had all the Anima and linking soul to a weapon or what was it exactly. SB and ShB had you explore new lands with new story and getting new cool weapons while you're there.

Now what do we get as a substitute? A fucking Hildibrand, Tom Bombadil-like character, minus the good parts. Character which breaks all the immersion that's left and makes no sense in a lore. Or at least I think so, the last hildibrand cutscene that I've watched was that truly hilarious one where there was 10 minute build up, just to point out how hilarious it is when a man wears woman dress. Truly a peak of comedy.

Originally Hildibrand content was there for the people who enjoyed it and not shoved down the throats of people who were here for what was at the time a story that could for the most part be taken seriously.

We've since devolved into Puddingway in the MSQ and Hildibrand being the gate to this expansion's relic. For all the whining about having to do the Ivalice raids to unlock Bozja - which I 100% support because if one cannot clear those raids then quite frankly they have no business taking part in any post 70 content, I would much rather have had the immersion that came along with that than wow funny man flies through the air to the moon.

Other than this expansion's battle content, the absolute worst thing this game does is when it attempts to pretend to be funny.

I prefer being able to do whatever I want to earn it. I always hated it when it was super convaluted for no reason. Like having to spam x until you never want to touch it again is so regressive. But I can see how this will occupy people for short periods of time. Even if it was capped tomes that only drags it out for 4 weeks. I get it you wanted more. I'm happy for the convenience of it.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Free login, baby!

But on a serious note, a lot of people do truly enjoy this game, and it's hard to see something you've enjoyed in the past going in a bad direction. And so complaints are made. While I'm not a fan of how a lot of people here voice their complaints, they are at least providing feedback that could possibly get back to the devs at some point for review and consideration.

Hope can keep people around for a long time.

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This is what a lot of people fail to realize. Most complaints are from people who still genuinely the game at least in one arena or another. They're voicing criticising in hopes of invoking changes no matter how much copium they may be huffing. Speaking for myself, the day I stop posting about the game, be it hear or elsewhere is the day I've stopped caring.

hope you enjoy the same roulettes every day cause that is the only content for the next year

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Let me correct that for you

"wonderful, at least one expansion that you dont have to do anything at all"

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Wdym? There’s plenty of engaging and interesting content to do. I play daily for hours and never ran out of content.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Didn't you just make a fictional grind for no reason not too long ago just because you didn't have anything to do? How is a relic not better than that?

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That grind was for ilv620 crafter and gatherer gear, which will last well into next expansion. The relic weapons for combat classes aren't even BiS and inferior to savage weapons. You can't even customize the stats on them anymore. Like I said previously, they are glamour. That's it.

I really can't believe I have to spell that out for you.

Also. I did that grind not because I didn't have anything to do. At that point I still needed Sophia Unreal and Rubicante EX clears. I still haven't touched Island Sanctuary or Hildabrand either. Also fell behind on shared fates for EW zones. I did that grind simply because I felt like it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You can't even customize the stats on them anymore.

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Of all complaints about the relics, this one really doesn't track, Eureka weapons became customizable at the Pyros stage which was at the end of the 3rd zone out of 4, Resistance weapons at the Augmented Law's Order stage which was the second to last stage, no relic ever had customizable stats at their second stage.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I still haven't touched Island Sanctuary or Hildabrand either. Also fell behind on shared fates for EW zones.

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Well don't rush any of this because you'll run out of stuff to do in a day tops. GL tho!

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is what a lot of people fail to realize. Most complaints are from people who still genuinely the game at least in one arena or another. They're voicing criticising in hopes of invoking changes no matter how much copium they may be huffing. Speaking for myself, the day I stop posting about the game, be it hear or elsewhere is the day I've stopped caring.

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Yeah. I pour my dreams into this game because these people are capable of making them happen. I know Square-Enix can do better than this. If we just... send our collective hopes and prayers out into the aether, mayhap they will stop coasting on the 2013 gameplay loop and show us a new XIV.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Yeah. I pour my dreams into this game because these people are capable of making them happen. I know Square-Enix can do better than this. If we just... send our collective hopes and prayers out into the aether, mayhap they will stop coasting on the 2013 gameplay loop and show us a new XIV.

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They absolutely can do better, and that's what makes this so hard to watch.

We're told that the Developers (etc) read the Official Forums and subreddit and stuff, so I do try to pop up here occasionally to add my thoughts to topics that are important to me. This is definitely one of them.

This is so wildly disappointing to me. The current design decisions seem to be focused on making the game as hyper casual as possible (outside of like, Ultimates?), and while that's generally fine, when it comes to content like Relics it just makes the expansion feel so empty? Objectively of course, it isn't -- we've gotten Orthos, Criterion, Island Sanctuary, quality of life adjustments, so on and so forth; but for the most part much of the playable content added has been one and done. I understand -- and don't even necessarily disagree with -- the idea to make the Relic be achieved in an alternate easier way like what's happening now, but it shouldn't be the only way; it should be a supplementary way for largely casual players to tome dump. It truly and genuinely feels like the Developers got so tired of being criticized for any type of Relic Grind that they just kind of threw their hands in the air and spitefully said "okay fine, we'll make it easier -- we'll basically make it free" because they were out of ideas and did not know what to do.

I always see in threads like these some folks who immediately come to the defense of the developers and the game by saying "well, they've said you should take a break and go play other games", and it's frustrating. They say that, but then if I do, my House gets demolished, and if you live on a highly populated server or have a M or L plot -- good luck getting that back. Even outside of the House thing I want to play the game, but this expansion isn't giving me many reasons to actually play the game. There's not much content to do at level 90 that is around mid-core that you can easily drop in play some of, leave, and pick back up later.

I'm hoping (see: coping) things change in 7.0 but I'm concerned they won't because we'll be told that so many resources were spent on the graphical updates, so to wait to 8.0; but regardless I wanted to add my voice to the chorus of others who have also been expressing their discontent by this decision in this thread and the other one.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah I completely get the idea behind this for why theyre just sticking with tomestone grinds.



But relics are specific grinds, none of the previous steps were necessarily hard to do (cept that one step in the ARR grind which required you to either craft a mat or buy it at a high price in MB) so it was all relatively doable content.

The idea for grinds is to keep certain content relevant and the fact that theyre just making an easy bypass with this philosophy is not the way this should be handled. This is ridiculous and honestly one of the biggest Ls I cant defend.

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I always viewed the relic quests as a classic adventure where the relic is only part of the reward. I will always remember the 2.0 relic, yes it was hard but wow, it was such a journey.

Now, with the maintenance crew running the game, all we get us a show up to the vendor, turn in our capped tomes and see you in 4 months.

I’m at the point where I am giving up on 6.x and hoping that 7.0+ is something good, and if it’s not, well, all good things…

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well. So much for "6.45's relic step will be the real grind!" congrats to those who'd rather farm tomestones instead of having actual relic content like Delubrum Reginae or Exploratory Zones that gave other rewards to grind for and things to do.

It's clear to me that those of us who wanted a more involved process are not simply not being listened to, but actively ignored.

Enjoy your Manderville Relics - if they can even be called relics at this point.

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unless its tied to new content like the explore zones or this case, deep dungeons, or variant

then i actually prefer it this way.

If im going to be running meaningless shit from past expansion at least let me do it in ways i find fun, i dont find old dungeons or normal raids fun at all.

While this is definitely on the easier side of relics we have done, I don't think making an exploratory zone is mandatory to make something a grind, after all people still complain about the ARR relic and it has no such thing tied to it. Also let's be honest here, if they did add another Exploratory this time people would be complaining about it just the same, there is no pleasing everyone and that's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

"it's only alpha guys"
"its only beta guys"
"its only release guys"
"its only x.5 guys"
etc

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https://images.mein-mmo.de/medien/20...stas-Smirk.jpg

"They won't remember in next expansion anyway."



/uj

I wish the manderville weapons were the ones that players submitted instead of this "theme" that I don't know where it fits. What decides if they have blue glow or red glow? They don't feel like Manderville relics.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

While this is definitely on the easier side of relics we have done, I don't think making an exploratory zone is mandatory to make something a grind, after all people still complain about the ARR relic and it has no such thing tied to it. Also let's be honest here, if they did add another Exploratory this time people would be complaining about it just the same, there is no pleasing everyone and that's just the way it is.

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I think it’s because, at least to me, they have failed at every exploratory zone they have made thus far. They always find a convaluted way to do things. It's bad enough that these zones have arbitrary levels, so we added arbitrary grinds to them. Oh, and also stupid rules that only apply to those zones. I'm surprised we keep the abilities we have, and there isn't some terrible pvp centric new skill setup. Even things like Logograms and lost actions are just stupid. They add some convaluted step instead of just showing up to the raid, willing to do it with the skill to do it. You have to bring buffs into it. Now it's like, Wow. And now it's not fun.

At least to me. Eureka and Bozja could be deleted, and their respective rewards added to the game in other ways, and I feel like the community at large would praise it.

As content, it's crystal clear that they failed. It's why Bozja is a truncated form of Eureka, and they never released an EW version. It's because as content, it failed to meet its engagement metric.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Well don't rush any of this because you'll run out of stuff to do in a day tops. GL tho!

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What do you mean? You're confusing me with someone who has the kind of time to burn through the game's content in a day, and is the exact opposite of someone who is hard to please, and easy to disappoint and bore. I will never run out of things to do in the game because I always discover ways to find value in replaying the content I've cleared, and slow down my progress.

As an example. For Rubicante EX I didn't want to just follow the damage dorito around to deal with Purgation. I wanted to be the dorito responsible for keeping everyone safe. So I studied those six patterns until the cows came home and made my own guide to it instead of resorting to YouTube. For Sophia EX, I wanted to clear her with each job I have at 90, and won't go into a clear party as a job I have not cleared her with. So I'm always in the practice groups. Things like Island Sanctuary and shared fates are treated in the same likeness.

A huge issue with players, especially among the younger generation is the frequent need for instant gratification. You take content that required months of development and devour it within hours and immediately begin asking for more. This is not a dev problem. This is a you problem. There's no way one game can keep up with such savage appetites. Yoshi knows this, and is likely a big reason why he said go play something else for a time, and then come back.

If the relic weapon was more worthwhile and horizontal as far as its power goes, I would agree with the rest of you about making it more grind because that effort would be worth the time put in. As it is now, it is not that way. It isn't horizontal or even vertical. It's filler. It's a glamour. A mindless grindfest for that? Hard pass.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What do you mean? You're confusing me with someone who has the kind of time to burn through the game's content in a day, and is the exact opposite of someone who is hard to please, and easy to disappoint and bore. I will never run out of things to do in the game because I always discover ways to find value in replaying the content I've cleared, and slow down my progress.

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A huge issue with players, especially among the younger generation is the frequent need for instant gratification. You take content that required months of development and devour it within hours and immediately begin asking for more. This is not a dev problem. This is a you problem. There's no way one game can keep up with such savage appetites. Yoshi knows this, and is likely a big reason why he said go play something else for a time, and then come back.

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Your attitude is commendable even if its highly impractical and completely contradictory.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What do you mean? You're confusing me with someone who has the kind of time to burn through the game's content in a day

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I wanted to be the dorito responsible for keeping everyone safe. So I studied those six patterns until the cows came home and made my own guide to it instead of resorting to YouTube

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Wouldn't doing it quickly take less time, you know, for people who don't have the time? none the less, I am not a sweaty player, I would say I do content at a pace where I don't skip dialogues, cutscenes, or anything really and, like most of us, is still out of interesting things to do.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You take content that required months of development and devour it within hours and immediately begin asking for more

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I'm sorry but one and done content that has no replay value in an MMO took months to develop and can be finished in a couple of days is a design issue because customers pay monthly for this game. And while we don't expect devs to overwork themselves, at least I don't, I do expect them to design the content in a way that will at least rationally last a few months of casual play before it gets exhausted. This is a design issue, not a player issue. They've even designed content like this in this very game previously.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

A huge issue with players, especially among the younger generation is the frequent need for instant gratification. You take content that required months of development and devour it within hours and immediately begin asking for more. This is not a dev problem. This is a you problem. There's no way one game can keep up with such savage appetites. Yoshi knows this, and is likely a big reason why he said go play something else for a time, and then come back.

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Big true. When Island Sanctuaries came out, most of the players (particularly from NA) jumped on it with this min/max attitude, completely missing the point of that content, and “finished” the thing in no time. I took my sweet time, explored the place, had fun with friends, and kept playing and coming back to it even after I completed every thing there was to do on the Island (took me months), and still keep coming back to it, because it is meant to be a chill place to relax (the story itself says so).

And there are so many examples like this, when players with min/max approach tear apart the content in a few days and then complain about not having anything to do. I’m wondering whether this is a WoW migration issue, because this was the attitude I witnessed in WoW and escaped it as soon as I learnt there’s something like FF14.

My main issue with ffxiv(other than its dull combat) is that most things are too easy to achieve and the things that aren't are exceedingly difficult (the astrope mount being a good example for me). Not every game needs to be grindy but here I feel like things just don't feel rewarding, there should be a middle ground. It's a shame that the dev team insist on creating short lived content by going this route. Casuals won't die if they have to spend more time to get something special, and I say that as a very casual player myself, my main content is housing.

Someone said earlier in one of these posts that FFXIV is designed as a single player game and things should be tradeable(sorry, not gonna look for it again to quote) - I fully agree. If they don't want to force players into a specific grind, let some or all of the mats required to complete a grind tradeable, so they can work on it by other means and those who enjoy said grind can profit because of it.