A summary of healer issues

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Mostly wanting to test something. But anyway, this is a thread from the Healer forum:

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You obviously care a lot about this topic to invest so much thought into it.

But...I have all healers level 90 and find them all fun in the content I do. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Lordy, did Yoshi-P specifically mentioned -that- in Lapis Manalis intro? M-maybe he meant we can Repose the griffin to pseudo stun the Griffin at the beginning!!

Lmao.

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Please understand why I'm not about to go digging through hours of LL footage, but in whatever stream they did before the manalis patch, Yoshi said there would be a mechanic that would force healers to utilize a skill they wouldn't normally expect to use. I actually bound repose on my bar expecting some crazy mystery shit, but left the dungeon confused because it seemed like business as usual. I later learned that he meant esuna. To this day, I can't tell if Yoshi's remark was meant as like... a subtle dig at all these shit healers who let people die to cleansable doom, or what. I hope it was just a joke.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Healer (and Tank) gameplay should just loop and support itself. Healing and Mitigation should open up into powerful attacks and basic attacks should build powerful Healing and Mit tools.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...kest_Night.png

DRK is the best designed tank defensively fight me

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Healer (and Tank) gameplay should just loop and support itself. Healing and Mitigation should open up into powerful attacks and basic attacks should build powerful Healing and Mit tools.

It would also reduce the amount of people that don't use their tools since they would straightup feed into the goodstuff.

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Honestly I'm at the point where I wish they'd just hand addle, feint, shake it off, rampart, etc. to healers and let them apply the defensives to targeted characters or apply the debuffs onto bosses since 95% of dps/tanks sure as hell aren't using them.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

You obviously care a lot about this topic to invest so much thought into it.

But...I have all healers level 90 and find them all fun in the content I do. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I appreciate the kind words but don't get me wrong. I hate WoW. I hate Blizzard. I hate that company and communities culture of toxicity. I hate that I wasted so many years on an MMORPG that catered content to a very different player than I was, content to run content I hated or RP in Goldshire that is simply laughable onces compared to what this game offers. This meme comes to mind for how I felt in WoW for a long time, and I know im not the only one who said this.

Narrator voice: "Little did he know, he did in fact have somewhere else to go."

Also, dont mistake me about praising this game or being new. Im certainly not a veteran, but June will make me two years and thousands of hours played. I dont think of myself as new or in the honeymoon phase anymore. There were and are plenty about FFXIV that I dont love, wish was better, or even just flat out dislike. I can go into detail about that but that might be too off topic.

But even with those flaws and systems I dislike or dont care about, I LOVE the fact that I have 2000 mentor roulettes in front of me. I LOVE that I get to teach people or answer just a simple question every day. I love that after getting boost to 70 and boost to 80 after transferring to seraph, I still have some crafting and gathering to complete. I love that I still have so many sidequests, and mounts to farm, and venues to see and people to RP with. I am truly baffled when people say they have ran out of things to do in this game. I still have Eureka and Bozja ahead of me and not to mention

That said I usually keep my WoW hate to myself except for discussions like this thread as it's relevant. Hating on a game I haven't touched in 2 years while in the new game that I love isn't productive.

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Just gonna segway over to this thread instead. This thread is perfect, because Recon's post is actually phenomenal, which is all the more incredible that it gets to be solidly ignored for years.

Alright, question for you then, I still have a few days of forum access left.

I also, hate Blizzard. The only company who even comes close to the pure personal hatred I have for Blizzard is modern Nintendo. I stopped supporting them when D3 was treated the way it was, the things afterwards were just justifications that I made the right choice. When I came to XIV, long ago, I got exactly what I wanted from the game.

But the game IS different now, the developers themselves have admitted this change in philosophy. If the game was the same, my friends would still be here, gameplay I fell in love with would still be here, etc etc. No need for too much preamble.

So for us, who had our loved jobs reworked or outright removed from the game, midcore combat and exploration content deprioritized, and a dedicated push towards non-combat, socializing and RP on the surface. Not saying those things are wrong, just saying they happened. People deserve to be happy if that's stuff they enjoy. I already left, no need to go over that bit.

Where are we now supposed to go, the jaded XIV old-guard, since XIV isn't built for us anymore, or at worst, is actively hostile to us?

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Originally Posted by Smollett

Uhm... You do understand it was a joke about WAR "healers", right?

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Hah. If you're talking about what OP quoted it was too long, so I didn't read it.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Just gonna segway over to this thread instead. This thread is perfect, because Recon's post is actually phenomenal, which is all the more incredible that it gets to be solidly ignored for years.

Alright, question for you then, I still have a few days of forum access left.

I also, hate Blizzard. The only company who even comes close to the pure personal hatred I have for Blizzard is modern Nintendo. I stopped supporting them when D3 was treated the way it was, the things afterwards were just justifications that I made the right choice. When I came to XIV, long ago, I got exactly what I wanted from the game.

But the game IS different now, the developers themselves have admitted this change in philosophy. If the game was the same, my friends would still be here, gameplay I fell in love with would still be here, etc etc. No need for too much preamble.

So for us, who had our loved jobs reworked or outright removed from the game, midcore combat and exploration content deprioritized, and a dedicated push towards non-combat, socializing and RP on the surface. Not saying those things are wrong, just saying they happened. People deserve to be happy if that's stuff they enjoy. I already left, no need to go over that bit.

Where are we now supposed to go, the jaded XIV old-guard, since XIV isn't built for us anymore, or at worst, is actively hostile to us?

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I would tell you the same thing I told someone very close to me in my life who I play video games with, that loves a very narrow part of FFXIV only, ie. extreme trials and harder content. They hate the story, never play with in game music on, dont RP, etc. I told her she should go play WoW because she loves to skip quest text, raid, learn hard bosses and mechanics, toxic yelling about pvp, all that fun stuff. She would be better served by WoW for what she wants out of gaming. Now she hates blizzard too and theres no chance of her actually playing WoW (she hates WoW's art style)

Since you hate Blizzard no WoW for you. Try ESO and Guild Wars 2 maybe? But honestly, just like her, it sounds like what you want from a game would be better served by WoW or some competitive moba like League. I can also tell you from personal experience you are better off with a completely different genre of game than a game you aren't happy with. Believe me.

Now, all that said, I also know where you are coming from about being the jaded old guard of a game who has witnessed the very fundamentals of the game you love, change into something you despise. I am genuinely sorry that happened. It sucks. I wasn't around pre Shadowbringers, so i dont know what the game was like back then but im very sorry you seem to feel like youve had a hobby that you love taken away from you. I dont want that for you or anyone. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't here for it. I regret that what I want for the game doesn't match up with what so many others do. But im still here for it.

Really the only thing healers want is to have something to do with the time they aren't healing, which is a lot of time. With the current design of the game DPS is the only option to fill down time for them and their kit has only two DPS abilities, some have more that are both DPS and healing abilities but they are used nearly exclusively for their DPS potential because there are a plethora of other healing abilities they have available to use if needed. I have always been wanted more support abilities for healers, fill their downtime with buffing party members or debuffing enemies, but the dev team seems to be deathly afraid of any meaningful buffs or support abilities. Even the flat percentage DPS buffs that most jobs have are hardly felt during actual game-play, you need a parser to actually dig out the number differences and notice them. I'm sure people will point out that I do not participate in Savage or ultimate, which maybe these kinds of buffs are felt more, but you shouldn't have to be in the highest tier content to feel like your job is having an impact.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I should note, for the record, I disagree a good deal of the post quoted.

What I'm trying to see is what a more general audience thinks of it. The place it was posted is a bit of an echo chamber and I'm curious what people not part of that echo chamber feel related to it.

*snip*
I think it's a complex problem that needs a holistic solution. I'm not even sure that's the entirety of my ideal solution, but it at least is pointing in what I feel is the right direction.

But as for the OP quoted, yeah, I want to see what a more general, less (hopefully?) echochambery audience would think of it.

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Ahem, not to put too fine a point on it but...have you looked at your profile lately on Lodestone? It seems unsearchable on the forbidden site, but I don't see Savage clear mounts or Extreme mounts under that Mount tab. Easy to cast stones when you make it where others can't verify how you stack up to your own standard... <_<

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Translation- I posted this in the job forum and got feedback in many cases wasn't what I wanted to hear. So I am bringing this to the general aka "anything goes' forum . Let's get feedback from botanists now, why not - forget the healers.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I visited the healer forums once. It was an echo chamber of salt. And when I dared speak my own opinion about how I liked healer as it is now, they got extremely vitriolic. So why would I pay attention to anything other than general discussion, which has arguably less vitriol.

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That does make for a cool story. However, and I would fortunately, forum history says that some memories of your past experiences in the healer forum may differ.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I visited the healer forums once. It was an echo chamber of salt. And when I dared speak my own opinion about how I liked healer as it is now, they got extremely vitriolic. So why would I pay attention to anything other than general discussion, which has arguably less vitriol.

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This is a pretty unfortunate truth about the Healer forum. But I think it's why it's that way. I'm like the only person that consistently pokes the bear in there by having a different opinion. Most other people come in, get absolutely dumped on, and leave. But because they do, the majority thinks they represent everyone and keep doing it. When I point out they drive people away, so they aren't a true majority, they're a toxic echo chamber, they just...well, dump on me more, but I'm used to it at this point, I guess? XD

We really could use more dissenting voices in there, though.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

It has less vitriol because the more acidic users left. This place was literally Dead Ends’ Judgment Day a year ago.

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It's...still pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This is a pretty unfortunate truth about the Healer forum. But I think it's why it's that way. I'm like the only person that consistently pokes the bear in there by having a different opinion. Most other people come in, get absolutely dumped on, and leave. But because they do, the majority thinks they represent everyone and keep doing it. When I point out they drive people away, so they aren't a true majority, they're a toxic echo chamber, they just...well, dump on me more, but I'm used to it at this point, I guess? XD

We really could use more dissenting voices in there, though.

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It's...still pretty bad.

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Dude, what are you talking about? If you go to NASA, try to proclaim that the world is flat, and that everyone who doesn't agree is stuck in a toxic echo-chamber for calling you out, you're not portraying ANY side properly.

Having a different opinion from the majority does not inherently give said opinion more individual value. There is no debate left to be had, nor is there any need to be one! Who gives a shit if they are pushing people away from this miserable cesspool, particularly when we're a pointless minority anyway? The design of the entire combat system is not going to bend to appease some over-dedicated players on the forums. Nothing they do matters! If the developers would come on here and directly tell each and everyone one of us thanks for the money, now get out and stop asking for the SAME things we've been asking for four years, they would if they didn't have the PR fallout to worry about.


Healers are NOT changing! Tanks are NOT changing! The reality that that Class forums want for this game will NEVER happen! Our "opinions" are WORTHLESS. Why isn't that simple fact good enough? There is no need for a dissenting voice for players who are CONVINCED Square Enix has wronged them! The reality and hopelessness of the situation in their minds is loud enough without chucklenut #67032 saying "Actually it's fine, your experience is irrelevant". Just let us be miserable!

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Now, all that said, I also know where you are coming from about being the jaded old guard of a game who has witnessed the very fundamentals of the game you love, change into something you despise. I am genuinely sorry that happened. It sucks. I wasn't around pre Shadowbringers, so i dont know what the game was like back then but im very sorry you seem to feel like youve had a hobby that you love taken away from you. I dont want that for you or anyone. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't here for it. I regret that what I want for the game doesn't match up with what so many others do. But im still here for it.

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I'm going to keep this for reference for every single time I think about coming back here, and try to get as many of my miserable friends that are left out of this game as possible. I am so sick of seeing them so unhappy. Our game is gone. At the very least, you acknowledged there were losers in this. Goddamn, I lost so much. I should have never started playing FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Can we get the Cliff Notes version and I personally like my healer.

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In short:

Healers are too similar to one another, and the better you get at healing, the worse the gameplay feels for many players as the reward for managing your healing better is largely spamming 1 button, the antithesis of MMORPG gameplay. Our healing abilities are excessive in both strength and volume in comparison to how much damage we take in this game, but we also can't increase the amount of damage taken by that much or it becomes very difficult for new or learning healers to survive.

Many dedicated healer players want healers to have modest, yet rewarding DPS spells and abilities that puts them around the same level of DPS depth as the tanks so that when there is nothing to heal, there's a gameplay loop for them to engage with. Since the vast majority of content in FFXIV does not have enrage mechanics, it also doesn't mean that those newer or learning healers have to prioritize optimizing those additional DPS tools, allowing healers to play at the pace they're comfortable in, but always have some kind of engaging gameplay factor regardless of skill level.

Oh good gosh, this is long.

Meh.

THE POWER OF EDIT!!!

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Respectfully, that's not a summary.

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This did make me chuckle. You get a Like from me, friend. :D

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You... uh.. you might not realize this, but while he's a troll on the forums and have multiple alts, he actually is one of the more accomplished high-end raiders who also happens to parse like a monster (better than most players too). It isn't all the time he drops pretense when trolling, but when he does have a serious conversation, you realize he is also aware to the issues that plague FFXIV gameplay.

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I don't frequent General too often, and I don't track people's alts, sorry. There's no way for me to know any of that offhand. :)

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Unsurprisingly, really.

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It kind of is, but it may be the kind of people we are.

I've never had tremendous animosity towards people I disagree with. If people like OR dislike a thing, I may disagree with them, but I can accept their position. I only get irate when people try to take things from other people or attack other people's legitimacy/legitimate feelings. Like look at the PLD rework. There are some good threads where someone came out the gate swinging with how horrible it was, but also a ton of posters saying how there were good things about it or even that it was better on the whole. While some people had strong feelings, both sides of the argument were represented, and LARGELY people accepted other people's feelings, even while arguing/debating over the points. Ideally, this is how everywhere should be and good discussions would be had.

You don't get that with the Healer subforum. Like, at all. You don't get that in the DPS subforum in only two specific areas - ALMOST universally, people that like the Kaiten removal are attacked (though there are at least some people able to make the argument), and there's a lot of vitriol towards people that like New SMN (but again, enough people making the argument that they're still able to). The Healer subforum reached some kind of critical echochamber mass to where it really doesn't allow for those kinds of discussions at all. Even in the DPS forum, people can be somewhat cordial to those who disagree on those two issues. More than the Healer forum is to those who like current healing, anyway.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Dude, what are you talking about? If you go to NASA, try to proclaim that the world is flat, and that everyone who doesn't agree is stuck in a toxic echo-chamber for calling you out, you're not portraying ANY side properly.

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The world not being flat is a fact. Whether one likes or doesn't like Healing right now is an opinion. It's absurd comparing the two.

It'd be more like going into an agnostic convention and saying "I have no proof god exists, but I can submit for the sake of argument it's possible", which would be met with disagreement "Well, I have no proof god exists, and I submit that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence". But that's different than the response you'd get if you went to either an atheist or theist convention - the latter two being good representations of echo chambers on the matter.

And why people say it's toxic is it's not just people saying "you're wrong", it's people who will personally attack your CHARACTER for not hating the current implementation of Healers. Either your judgement and ability to understand, or that they just get frustrated you won't submit to their position and so start lashing out unfairly, complete with putting words in your mouth you didn't say or even outright lying about you.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Having a different opinion from the majority does not inherently give said opinion more individual value.

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That's the point, they aren't a majority. They're only a "majority" because it's a toxic echo-chamber that literally runs anyone off who disagrees with them. It's only like 12-15 people that do it, too, if that. They have the illusion of a majority simply by virtue of running off any dissenting voices except the most abjectly stubborn.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread, so I won't go on about it. But the reason people "give a sh--" is because it means most discussions in there aren't productive, which is why people don't frequent it to talk about healing issues. That's why it's important. I was agreeing with the person who said the same and that as the reason she didn't go in there when someone asked her why she hadn't been in there and seen the discussions. That's why it's relevant. Because at this point we basically need a completely separate "Healer Forum - For people who DON'T hate Healers" to have meaningful and thoughtful discussion on the topic. Well, or doing it here in General.

I do agree that it's probably not going to change anything, though.

As to your last point:

It's one reason I'm a fan - and constantly advocate for - what I call the "Four Healers Model". Which, in a nutshell, is "We have four Healer Jobs...why should they all play so similarly? Give SCH some Dots back, give AST some Cards, WHM...is honestly better now than it's ever been so leave it alone, and make SGE a Disc Priest or something - bam, everybody wins."

SUPER nutshell. I think Misshapen Chair made a similar argument in one of his videos, the "Healing In FFXIV Is Not Fun" one.

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Originally Posted by Leifei

Glad you're enjoying it. Outside looking in, I have a few healer friends that raid and I've seen the conversations from strangers. Seems like their main criticism is that the dps rotation is only 2 buttons, and one is a DoT. I completely understand their gripe as that sounds less fun than having a more complex kit. Something that was present in the past for healers.

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Not as much as it seems, though this depends WILDLY on which Healer we're talking about. For example, AST has more or less always had the same DPS rotation it has now. WHM's ShB/EW rotation is more complex (yes, it is) than WHM's SB rotation was, and requires more DPS GCDs per minute than SB's did, considering you have to use 3 Solace/Rapture (GCDs) to generate a Misery, which is DPS neutral on the whole and DPS positive in buff windows over Glare. The super short version is ARR WHM had to press 9.333... non-Stones per minute, SB WHM pressed 5.833..., and ShB/EW WHM presses 6. So in a rough sense, WHM now has a comparable "rotation" to what it did in EW (slightly less Glarespam, actually), and moderately less than ARR (due to Aero 1's super short duration back then), but it's not super duper dissimilar.

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In practice, ARR WHM cast Aero 1 6 times per minute and Aero 2 3.3... times per minute. Note Fluid Aura was not on the GCD, so we'll set that aside FOR THE MOMENT. This is a total of 9.3 non-Stone casts. (Blizzard 2 would have competed with Holy, but as we all know - it didn't, and so doesn't count. That'd be like counting Physic as a heal since you could cross-class it.)

In practice, SB WHM cast Aero 2 3.333... times per minute and Aero 3 2.5 times per minute. This is a total of 5.833... GCD casts per minute that weren't Stone IV.

In practice, EW WHM casts Dia 2 times per minute, 3 Afflatus (Solace/Rapture) per minute, and 1 Afflatus Misery per minute. This is a total of 6 GCD casts per minute that aren't Glare III.

So there's your comparison. And looking at AOE, ARR was Holyspam, SB was Aero 3 2.5x per minute + Holyspam, and EW is 3 Solace/Rapture + 1 Misery + Holyspam.

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SCH, on the other hand...yeah, SCH got hit hard. People mention the loss of the DoTs, but it's more than that. Broil IV being a 1.5 sec cast means no Ruin 2 for weaves, which was at least something different to hit as part of your rotation. SB and HW SCH also had (depending on how you count) 3-6 total DoTs (though Shadow Flare was an oGCD with a CD for the latter part of that). Even in ARR, it had its own Bio and Miasma and Shadow Flare (back then, a GCD) along with Cross-Classing Aero.

So it's more accurate to say that it was present in the past for SCH.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

You obviously care a lot about this topic to invest so much thought into it.

But...I have all healers level 90 and find them all fun in the content I do. Sorry.

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Oh, I'm with you. It wasn't my post. It was posted in the Healer subforum, which is kind of a toxic echochamber of salt. I was curious how a more general audience would feel about it since in there, they were all saying I was wrong for liking Healers like they are today. I'm with you, I find them fun and enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

So for us, who had our loved jobs reworked or outright removed from the game, midcore combat and exploration content deprioritized, and a dedicated push towards non-combat, socializing and RP on the surface. Not saying those things are wrong, just saying they happened. People deserve to be happy if that's stuff they enjoy. I already left, no need to go over that bit.

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I think this depends on the player.

I've been playing since ARR (2.3, I think), and I still enjoy the game. Granted, I'm playing on a Job that has only improved over that time but hasn't changed SUPER much from what it always was, but I think this depends mostly on the person. I'm not sure what the answer is, though...

I DO absolutely think that the content droughts in EW have shown how important it is to have a Eureka/Bozja type content for people to mill about in when patches are getting long in the tooth. Island Sanctuary ain't it, and Criterion wasn't, either. Orthos is nice, but isn't really solo-friendly (that is, you can't do the higher floors quing solo) like Eureka/Bozja where where you could just form groups inside.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Translation- I posted this in the job forum and got feedback in many cases wasn't what I wanted to hear. So I am bringing this to the general aka "anything goes' forum . Let's get feedback from botanists now, why not - forget the healers.

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1) I didn't post this in the Healer forum, someone else did.

2) You and others in there point to it and how many likes it got there of proof of how it's right and I'm wrong about everything, even though that subforum actively repels anyone with a differing opinion - and as you can see from this thread, I'm NOT the only one telling you that.

3) I posted it here to see if a general audience that isn't part of YOUR echochamber agrees or not. So far, it's looking like a lot more disagreement when you and your fellows insisted there was none. Very interesting, that...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

White Mage, Sage and Warrior are tied for the most popular jobs in all of FFXIV right now (although Dark Knight takes Warrior's place in raids specifically).

In high-end content, White Mage is the most popular job in all of FFXIV, more than tanks and DPS, it has been for a long time and it's not even close. So this just isn't true!

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Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Add in SMN and DNC and you have the most popular Jobs in the game right now in your list.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

Like many of the other jobs, they took too many tools away from the healers.

Yoshida may want to consider bringing some skills back just to test the waters again. We have different players now compared to HW/SB.

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Somewhat agree with this. Some stuff like Protect or Stoneskin would be cool to see back.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Thing is nowadays tanks are so OP that they barely need heals in dungeons lately, hell I have seen bosses over 50% HP being taken down with the healer dead.

Instead if there was more unavoidable damage to actually HEAL in dungeons/raids, then healing jobs could be more engaging, not silly ideas like add another attack to healers kit. If you like to do damage go play a DPS, the healer job is to HEAL, contrary to popular opinion I think our attacking skills are enough.

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Largely agree, though I think it's more complicated than that. But in a general sense, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

AT this point they should just remove dps abilites on all healers,
add massive amount of dmg on every content ( remove selfheal from dps/tank).. i mean dmg 24/7 --> so all that healers do is to heal/buff/mid..
So the dps wannabe healers can go back to dps ..and cry there.

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Maybe. You need at least one damage ability to clear solo content, though.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Healers, just as tanks and DPS, are homogenized because you are able to play every class.

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I personally love playing healer. I switched to being a healer main after almost 2 years of DPS because I found it more engaging. I actually have to pay attention and it matters more if I know the fights. I honestly have no idea where this "healers don't have to heal and they're optional" comes from. Because let me tell you, 90% of DF groups I get, the party eats avoidable damage like it's candy. Human error happens. Often. So how is it these people say they never have to heal?

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Largely agreed.

I will say that people complain about Tank homogenization. DPS are just now complaining about it because the 2 min meta has homgenized them somewhat. One of the issues is that we have so much homogenization because people have literally asked for it ("Why does Job X get Y and my Job doesn't?! Give me that ability, too, Yoshi P!!"). So that is kind of a thing besides just Healers. It's just most noticeable in the Healer DPS kits since they all are mostly DoT + Nuke + oneotherthing.

That said, I am constantly confused by people that say they have nothing to heal, considering my DFs pretty much always give me plenty to heal, and my Extreme/Savage PF groups do as well. Largely I enjoy Healing right now, but I AM in favor of the Four Healers Model so that people who don't could also have some Healing Job(s) they enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Pretty much posting anything healer related to the General forum is going to get a tepid response. Most players simply don't care how badly designed healers are.

Now, remove a single button from Samurai and it's the end of the world.

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Eh, maybe. Maybe not. Only one way to find out. We've already got 6 pages, so it's not TOO tepid.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Can we get the Cliff Notes version and I personally like my healer.

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I like mine, too. :) And for a Cliff Notes version, I think Ty got it more or less right. Note that this IS NOT my position. I'm just cross posting it from the Healer Forum because I was told by the echochamber there that everyone agrees with it and I wanted to see if EVERYONE agreed with it, or just everyone in their echochamber, as those are two very different things.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

In short:

Healers are too similar to one another, and the better you get at healing, the worse the gameplay feels for many players as the reward for managing your healing better is largely spamming 1 button, the antithesis of MMORPG gameplay. Our healing abilities are excessive in both strength and volume in comparison to how much damage we take in this game, but we also can't increase the amount of damage taken by that much or it becomes very difficult for new or learning healers to survive.

Many dedicated healer players want healers to have modest, yet rewarding DPS spells and abilities that puts them around the same level of DPS depth as the tanks so that when there is nothing to heal, there's a gameplay loop for them to engage with. Since the vast majority of content in FFXIV does not have enrage mechanics, it also doesn't mean that those newer or learning healers have to prioritize optimizing those additional DPS tools, allowing healers to play at the pace they're comfortable in, but always have some kind of engaging gameplay factor regardless of skill level.

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With one caveat: The quoted OP directly asked for the amount of damage taken to be increased. This is Ty injecting a bit of the Healer Forum echochamber here where the OP here did not. See point (2) in the OP where the solution proposed was to increase the damage, the very thing Ty and the Healer Forum regulars oppose. (I don't mean this as a dig at you, Ty, the rest of your summary is correct.)

.

It's also why I'm big on the Four Healers Model, since that would accommodate both types of players. I think Misshapen Chair DID do a good video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU

His own proposed solution being very similar to mine, though a bit more...colorful:

Quote:

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Give SCH players 2 DoTs, make one of them a Hardcast, and give them Tri-Disaster and make Aetherflow reset the cooldown of said Tri-Disaster. Let WHM stay exactly the same so that we can meme on it for being the baby healer. Bring back Nocturnal AST. Bring back AOE DoTs. And make SGE have some wack-a-- over complicated DPS rotation that baffles people's minds...and see if they embrace it or not.

If someone complains that they need to be rewarded with more DPS for their complicated Job; simply tell them that the reward is being able to have fun, and not being bored out of their ----ing minds. Shut the ---- up about a whole 2% DPS variance.

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While his position is more from a jaded perspective while mine is more from a hopeful and inclusive one, I think the agreement is valid.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

With one caveat: The quoted OP directly asked for the amount of damage taken to be increased. This is Ty injecting a bit of the Healer Forum echochamber here where the OP here did not. See point (2) in the OP where the solution proposed was to increase the damage, the very thing Ty and the Healer Forum regulars oppose. (I don't mean this as a dig at you, Ty, the rest of your summary is correct.)

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I, and many others do not oppose increasing damage dealt entirely. I've regularly talked about wanting to see more frequent instances of damage, but there is a limit to how much damage we can reasonably add to all levels of content. The point I and several others have made is that the only way to increase damage dealt to the party enough to actually forced the advanced healer players into healing more than they attack would completely overwhelm entry level, beginner level, and probably intermediate level healers, and that's not what we want. We don't want healing to be a punishingly ruthless role that tosses newbies into the meat grinder.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I, and many others do not oppose increasing damage dealt entirely. I've regularly talked about wanting to see more frequent instances of damage, but there is a limit to how much damage we can reasonably add to all levels of content. The point I and several others have made is that the only way to increase damage dealt to the party enough to actually forced the advanced healer players into healing more than they attack would completely overwhelm entry level, beginner level, and probably intermediate level healers, and that's not what we want. We don't want healing to be a punishingly ruthless role that tosses newbies into the meat grinder.

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Not to mention... once a couple of months roll by and people just get better gear, they outscale the level sync because SE keeps on designing content with a high max ILVL sync to said content. Ultimately, you end up back to the same place as you were before they increased damage with healers needing only a very small portion of their healing toolkit, making healers unfun for that said content again later as everyone also gets better gear.

Happened to Shadowbringers, Happened to Endwalker. It's pretty much inevitable increasing damage dealt doesn't work in long term without making some players unable to keep up with the damage.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

With one caveat: The quoted OP directly asked for the amount of damage taken to be increased. This is Ty injecting a bit of the Healer Forum echochamber here where the OP here did not. See point (2) in the OP where the solution proposed was to increase the damage, the very thing Ty and the Healer Forum regulars oppose. (I don't mean this as a dig at you, Ty, the rest of your summary is correct.).

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WEll there is one thing that you keep forgetting yourself. The damage and fights are scripted. It has always been like this ever since ARR, the only difference back then was the phase pushes were based on percentages instead of the timeline that it is now. Take TOP for example, looper tower always does 32-34k on dps and healers. I don't need to heal them to full they just need enough hp which one gcd and ogcd is all that's needed. In Panto I am always going to get hit by 3 stack lasers and one solo missle. I legit only need to use 2 gcd heals on top of my lilybell and thats all the gcd healing I need to do for all of p1.

On the subject of increasing damage dealt, I imagine that a return to the old ways could help (I started when post-ShB was current, so I can't speak from experience):

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

IMHO the easiest solution there is to lean more on auto attacks persisting through casts with the ability to crit whilst also giving bosses short cooldown non-telegraphed tank busters and cleaves again.

Kaliya from Coil T11 during prog was a great example of how bosses should hit. It wasn't the hardest hitting boss of the time, but you needed both tanks to soak those cleaves initially and it was nothing like as predictable as what we have now because the bulk of the damage didn't have a huge long telegraph announcing it's arrival.

https://youtu.be/1WwRDVQotgo?t=15

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Crit auto attacks and untelegraphed/no cast bar tankbusters were a decent way to keep healers on their toes and pay attention to tank health—versus just ignoring it for the majority of a fight. I wish they’d bring those back. I think there may still be a few busters that aren’t indicated by a cast bar, but they are few and far between. A lot of the Savage bosses only do two or three busters an entire fight, and they are all usually immuned by the tanks. Maybe upping the frequency could help that as well.

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Eh. Read my quote. Sums it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

In short:

Healers are too similar to one another, and the better you get at healing, the worse the gameplay feels for many players as the reward for managing your healing better is largely spamming 1 button, the antithesis of MMORPG gameplay. Our healing abilities are excessive in both strength and volume in comparison to how much damage we take in this game, but we also can't increase the amount of damage taken by that much or it becomes very difficult for new or learning healers to survive.

Many dedicated healer players want healers to have modest, yet rewarding DPS spells and abilities that puts them around the same level of DPS depth as the tanks so that when there is nothing to heal, there's a gameplay loop for them to engage with. Since the vast majority of content in FFXIV does not have enrage mechanics, it also doesn't mean that those newer or learning healers have to prioritize optimizing those additional DPS tools, allowing healers to play at the pace they're comfortable in, but always have some kind of engaging gameplay factor regardless of skill level.

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Very well summarized

I wanna program Selene like FFXIII paradigms.

I would like it if they added tanks and healers back to the game lol

But seriously, take away all the healing ogcd’s and replace them with dps ogcd’s, then balance the game around healers casting for every heal

For someone constantly screeching about hyperbole in the healer subforum, you certainly take the wildest, most exaggerated interpretation of everything everyone over there says.

FYI to the general discussion crowd: The reason he reposted the OP of that thread here was due to a single exchange. One person said threads veering off-topic means they get ignored. I countered with a link to the OP, a thread that has several hundred upvotes as a counterexample of a thread that has a ton of engagement and collected feedback, also ignored.

Renathras decided to drag this out into general discussion, because while he kvetches and bellyaches constantly that the healer subforum is a "toxic cesspit", his favorite game is dancing back and forth around the definition of "majority", hunting and cherrypicking for data points that validate his views on healer design and dismissing as "toxic" ones that don't, then wonders why healer forum regulars roll their eyes at drama queen BS like "look General Discussion, isn't the healer forum TOXIC and AWFUL? They disagreed with me today, but you all agree with me right? I'm not trying to lead this discussion but aren't they all so TOXIC?"

Yes yes, healers are sooo fun. Best designed ever. Glare Glare Glare. So fun.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

In the game I used to play (tera), healers handled the group's resource management. So you replenished the team's mana, you boosted their attack speed/recast times, and you kept them topped off so they could cheese mechanics.

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So healers in Tera are what Bards used to be in XIV.
A real party support.

Pity that was too hard for people and it got dumbed down to its current state.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

So healers in Tera are what Bards used to be in XIV.
A real party support.

Pity that was too hard for people and it got dumbed down to its current state.

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I want old BRD back. I don't know why it was changed and frankly I don't think I want to know considering healer's changes from SB to Shb.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

What I'm trying to see is what a more general audience thinks of it. The place it was posted is a bit of an echo chamber and I'm curious what people not part of that echo chamber feel related to it.

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Despite being called "General Discussion," this place still isn't anywhere remotely near a "general audience" of FFXIV players. If you want that, you'd probably be best served just talking to people in-game. This place is just a couple dozen utterly bitter naysayers creating a negative echo chamber because they can't let go and also can't stand that hundreds of thousands of other people are having fun playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Despite being called "General Discussion," this place still isn't anywhere remotely near a "general audience" of FFXIV players. If you want that, you'd probably be best served just talking to people in-game. This place is just a couple dozen utterly bitter naysayers creating a negative echo chamber because they can't let go and also can't stand that hundreds of thousands of other people are having fun playing the game.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...920/b2tgv5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Despite being called "General Discussion," this place still isn't anywhere remotely near a "general audience" of FFXIV players. If you want that, you'd probably be best served just talking to people in-game. This place is just a couple dozen utterly bitter naysayers creating a negative echo chamber because they can't let go and also can't stand that hundreds of thousands of other people are having fun playing the game.

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you're like in your 40s and you spend your free time constantly making these posts, that's crazy lil bro

I dont agree to "auto-unite" Cure 1 into Cure 2, since Cure 1 has 0.5 seconds lower cast, and this way it has lower cast time -> lower application time and u can cast it almost on move, it means alot when u play low level content (level 1-60) or playing as conjurer (who does not have instacasts besides swiftcast)

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Originally Posted by Picker

I would like it if they added tanks and healers back to the game lol

But seriously, take away all the healing ogcd’s and replace them with dps ogcd’s, then balance the game around healers casting for every heal

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That's actually an interesting idea. So where all attacks are (in terms of rotation) like Energy Drain/Assize? oGCDs?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

...

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Don't mind Semi, she's quite possibly the worst offender about attacking people in there and even when caught lying about accusations, with direct quotes, refuses to recant.

"Renathras decided to cross-post this into General Discussion...to see if the Healer subforum is at all an accurate representation of the general forum population, much less the game's overall population."

There, fixed that for ya, Semi.

Funny you say I'm "bellyaching" about the Healer Subforum when other people here are saying the same thing, and have echoed what I told you before about you guys driving off anyone who dissents. Your post here is further evidence of that, btw. "hunting and cherrypicking" to show you actual data? You're being Exhibit 1 proving the claims you're saying aren't true are true.

.

Anyway, this post wasn't about the Healer subforum being toxic. I was just piggybacking off of someone else saying that. Someone I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you were the person who ran them out of it. This post was to see if the OP post that you claim should command the discussion on the topic actually holds water with people not part of your echo chamber.

So far, it has not.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

So healers in Tera are what Bards used to be in XIV.
A real party support.

Pity that was too hard for people and it got dumbed down to its current state.

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Was that why?

I always thought it had more to do with being hard to balance. Though they removed BRD buffs the same time they added DNC buffs. WHICH NEVER MADE SENSE TO ME. ShB DNC announcement was basically "We don't think a Job that buffs other party members works well with the game. So we're removing BRD's party buffs. Also, we're adding this new Job, DNC. And its main thing is that it buffs the party." Like...in what world does that make sense? o.O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Despite being called "General Discussion," this place still isn't anywhere remotely near a "general audience" of FFXIV players. If you want that, you'd probably be best served just talking to people in-game. This place is just a couple dozen utterly bitter naysayers creating a negative echo chamber because they can't let go and also can't stand that hundreds of thousands of other people are having fun playing the game.

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Fair enough. But seriously, go to the Healer subforum. Read some of the threads. The one about removing Rescue (because OP and several other posters in there AREN'T Healer Subforum regulars) is a good showing of how people with divergent positions are "greeted" by the echochamber.

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Originally Posted by Remolia

I dont agree to "auto-unite" Cure 1 into Cure 2, since Cure 1 has 0.5 seconds lower cast, and this way it has lower cast time -> lower application time and u can cast it almost on move, it means alot when u play low level content (level 1-60) or playing as conjurer (who does not have instacasts besides swiftcast)

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Agree with this.

I also have noted that merging Solace/Rapture with Cure 2/Medica makes no sense considering sometimes you want to save the Lily for an upcoming movement and don't want to be forced to burn it early. While chain casting Dia while moving IS technically a DPS gain (depending on if you're overwriting a buffed snapshot Dia or not, I guess...), it's not much of one and isn't Ruin 2. It's still a movement tool for WHM, but a lesser option than using a Lily.

I wouldn't mind if a Trait upgraded Cure 1 to Cure 2 IF AND ONLY IF Cure 2 maintained Cure 1's cast time (1.5 sec) and MP cost (400). Though I wouldn't mind THAT since WHM should be the one that has the big and MP efficient heals, not AST.

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Originally Posted by Remolia

I dont agree to "auto-unite" Cure 1 into Cure 2, since Cure 1 has 0.5 seconds lower cast, and this way it has lower cast time -> lower application time and u can cast it almost on move, it means alot when u play low level content (level 1-60) or playing as conjurer (who does not have instacasts besides swiftcast)

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If at any point, you are casting Cure 1 while you have Access to Cure 2, you are trolling.

This discussion has been had on the balance discord a thousand times, Cure 1, is absolutely worthless once you have Cure 2.

No need to argue about it, it is pure fact. People a lot smarter than the rest of us worked this out years ago.

As an AST main since HW, the OP makes me want to scream into a pillow.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

Lol the high end healers I know mostly quit because healing got mind-numbingly boring. Since ShB. Not because there's pressure.

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Both you and fulminating aren't contradicting each other though.

The majority of competent healers had left a long time before 6.2 so the increase in pressure this raid tier destroyed healer participation for savage, because the healers that still remained were incapable of dealing with it and just gave up. And who can blame them when they had an easy time for an entire expansion? Heal checks in ShB were a joke, so all these new healers ever knew was basically getting a free savage carry by spamming 1 and occasionally an oGCD to solve any incoming damage... until they suddenly hit a brick wall in the current raid tier.

It was so bad you could notice it on any role, I stopped counting the amount of times I died to autos as a tank because the random pug healers neither expected nor were able to deal with the increase in tank damage compared Asphodelos.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Both you and fulminating aren't contradicting each other though.

The majority of competent healers had left a long time before 6.2 so the increase in pressure this raid tier destroyed healer participation for savage, because the healers that still remained were incapable of dealing with it and just gave up. And who can blame them when they had an easy time for an entire expansion? Heal checks in ShB were a joke, so all these new healers ever knew was basically getting a free savage carry by spamming 1 and occasionally an oGCD to solve any incoming damage... until they suddenly hit a brick wall in the current raid tier.

It was so bad you could notice it on any role, I stopped counting the amount of times I died to autos as a tank because the random pug healers neither expected nor were able to deal with the increase in tank damage compared Asphodelos.

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Literally just AspBen lol. ShB baby healers smh.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Both you and fulminating aren't contradicting each other though.

The majority of competent healers had left a long time before 6.2 so the increase in pressure this raid tier destroyed healer participation for savage, because the healers that still remained were incapable of dealing with it and just gave up. And who can blame them when they had an easy time for an entire expansion? Heal checks in ShB were a joke, so all these new healers ever knew was basically getting a free savage carry by spamming 1 and occasionally an oGCD to solve any incoming damage... until they suddenly hit a brick wall in the current raid tier.

It was so bad you could notice it on any role, I stopped counting the amount of times I died to autos as a tank because the random pug healers neither expected nor were able to deal with the increase in tank damage compared Asphodelos.

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And this is exactly why increasing the amount of healing required also doesn't work. You have 90 levels worth of content that healing is easy enough that you can get by with the bare minimum in most cases and still compete it. Hell, there's a short clip of a P4S run where the WHM was literally Medica 2 Spamming during the last 8% of the fight.

THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

There is no excuse to be casting Medica 2 back to back like this man was but here he was, in the final fight of the last raid tier, doing exactly that. This is how low the bar of entry is for savage that this type of player could get that close to clearing the raid tier by using Medica 2 spam.

This tier may as well have been Goridas levels of difficulty for this type of player that it really isn't a wonder at all why Healer participation wasn't particularly high this time around. I have no doubt this type of player struggled and probably quit the savage tier entirely, along with any other healer that fell back on their Medica 2 spam as their primary crutch because there was probably no way for them to handle it. Now imagine this type of player being asked to do even the slightest bit more healing in average content and I just don't see it ending well at all.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

And this is exactly why increasing the amount of healing required also doesn't work. You have 90 levels worth of content that healing is easy enough that you can get by with the bare minimum in most cases and still compete it. Hell, there's a short clip of a P4S run where the WHM was literally Medica 2 Spamming during the last 8% of the fight.

THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

There is no excuse to be casting Medica 2 back to back like this man was but here he was, in the final fight of the last raid tier, doing exactly that. This is how low the bar of entry is for savage that this type of player could get that close to clearing the raid tier by using Medica 2 spam.

This tier may as well have been Goridas levels of difficulty for this type of player that it really isn't a wonder at all why Healer participation wasn't particularly high this time around. I have no doubt this type of player struggled and probably quit the savage tier entirely, along with any other healer that fell back on their Medica 2 spam as their primary crutch because there was probably no way for them to handle it. Now imagine this type of player being asked to do even the slightest bit more healing in average content and I just don't see it ending well at all.

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This is exactly a main part of the reason they can't make things more ngaging for high-end healers. The skill ceiling is so low and yet there are still so many people who can't reach it.

My co-healer in Euphrosyne last night died to every mechanic because they couldn't even heal themself. I was handling the rest of the party, but they couldn't heal themself. They would die and not use tetra or bene on themself when rezzed. The only "cure" they casted was Cure III. And that was only when they were missing health. And they would cast 3 medica 2s in a row. The only reason to cast medica 2 is for the regen. The regens don't stack. It's a pitiful heal otherwise.

I saw them assize once. Just medica 2 and cure 3. And no, I'm not kidding when I say they used cure 3 to heal only themself. The rest of the party was full every time.

And as taboo as it is to say, this is a result of the coddling ToS. Where you can report someone for "telling you how to play". You can't give unsolicited advice without the risk of someone getting mad. Until the lower end players get better, you're never going to get harder casual content. Or even harder high end content. Because when they do, they're going to have people screaming and crying that they can't do it, just like Coils in ARR.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

This is exactly a main part of the reason they can't make things more ngaging for high-end healers. The skill ceiling is so low and yet there are still so many people who can't reach it.

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If they can't even reach a low skill ceiling then who cares if they also can't reach a higher skill ceiling? We really don't have to cater towards people who can't even keep themself alive.

Either people hit a barrier and try to improve or they quit. Of course SE will lose money when that healer quits. But... how many people quit the game because healing is just too boring?

SE was trying to play it safe for the last years, but the unsatisfied healer community gets louder every year and SE has to decide on a path:

Either increase healing requirements. Or give healers a fleshed out dps rotation and healing becomes only a gimmick like dances, songs and cards. We are on that path already anyway, where tanks and DDs have enough healing and mitigation tools available to carry that healer who can't even keep themself alive through content all the way to Euphrosyne, where you took over then.

How long can they keep healers in this weird state of 1 button rotation and barely enough healing that you can't go into content without them - or can you? How many people will quit healing - or the game altogether - when the next expansion is still just the same old one button spam?

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

This is exactly a main part of the reason they can't make things more ngaging for high-end healers. The skill ceiling is so low and yet there are still so many people who can't reach it.

My co-healer in Euphrosyne last night died to every mechanic because they couldn't even heal themself. I was handling the rest of the party, but they couldn't heal themself. They would die and not use tetra or bene on themself when rezzed. The only "cure" they casted was Cure III. And that was only when they were missing health. And they would cast 3 medica 2s in a row. The only reason to cast medica 2 is for the regen. The regens don't stack. It's a pitiful heal otherwise.

I saw them assize once. Just medica 2 and cure 3. And no, I'm not kidding when I say they used cure 3 to heal only themself. The rest of the party was full every time.

And as taboo as it is to say, this is a result of the coddling ToS. Where you can report someone for "telling you how to play". You can't give unsolicited advice without the risk of someone getting mad. Until the lower end players get better, you're never going to get harder casual content. Or even harder high end content. Because when they do, they're going to have people screaming and crying that they can't do it, just like Coils in ARR.

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At some point you unfortunately just have to put your foot down and tell players to "get good" or your game will be in an endless spiral of making everything dumber than previously.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I visited the healer forums once. It was an echo chamber of salt. And when I dared speak my own opinion about how I liked healer as it is now, they got extremely vitriolic. So why would I pay attention to anything other than general discussion, which has arguably less vitriol.

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You mean the thread where you tried to call my factual and verifiable math 'anecdotal' despite having zero personal experience in said content or era?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5685240

I guess simply correcting you is extremely vitriolic now :rolleyes:

If you want a great example of how low the healer skill ceiling is right now. I just landed a 94 percentile damage in non BiS gear running Lapis with only GCD heals (Basically Regen and Lilies). It's just beyond a joke now.

People managed just fine when content, like Titan HM and early AK was the norm. Now the devs and player base are equally terrified of even the merest hint of failure even though there's barely any consequences for it.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Personally I find playing healer is pretty fun, focus targeting a DPS, hitting Nascent flash and being able to get both their and my own HP to max in a few attacks feels pretty good.
I don't get why people don't like playing healer, Its pretty satisfying.

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Best comment of the thread tbh++

No idea how healing is...still trying to lvl up jobs and tanks ATM