I didn't think I'd miss Kaiten that much...

Samurai's clearly found " Kaiten " Fun, which is subjective. Arguing what we or I find more fun as a 24/7 Samurai main about Samurai? is pointless.

Kaiten provided a much needed layer of depth, by always having 20 Kenki ready before every Iaijutsu or Ogi-Namikiri. This sound so simple, but you needed to...

• Not trigger finger 25 Kenki Shinten
• Not overcap with 50 Kenki Ikishoten
• Not missuse 50 Kenki (now 25 ) Senei
• Rare case nuance usages of Yaten/Gyoten 10 Kenki
• Third Eye effecting your Kenki by 10

By design, this makes your Samurai's Gauge the last of it's kind that is very interactive. Telling us that " Shinten Spamming " is any better? is beyond Shallow. This provided an ounce of complexity that even top players miss execute, even if its rarely? because we're not robots. Being good at it? is a sign that you mastered it. And Kaiten never stood in the way of clearing any content, making the argument that it made Samurai to difficult to play? false.

So we have one last thing to tackle... " Why advocate for Kaiten's removal when you don't even play Samurai? " cause that's really the big kicker when many of you don't main nor play Samurai. I'd really like to know how this benefits you if you don't play Samurai...

I've legitimately never seen the term button bloat so frequently thrown until EW dropped, even more so after the SAM rework. To the point that I feel like what's actually considered "button bloat" has been blurred.

Dear. Christ.

Button bloat is such an overused term it should be damned and forbidden. There's a difference between having a lot of buttons that fit nicely with each other and having a lot (or too many) buttons that don't.

Samurai is not a case of button bloat, it wasn't before Kaiten's asinine removal, and it isn't now. Everything in the kit fits and works nicely with each other. Before Kaiten got removed I'd argue that EW samurai was at its peak in terms of design. Now it's entire mantre got slaughtered because of some half-assed excuse of "button-bloat" when there were blatantly other methods of reducing the amount of actions on your bar.

It isn't good to remove an entire playstyle and flavor that a dedicated part of the playerbase loved about the job. Especially when it's for...who exactly? The people that didn't even want to learn the job in the first place? This is the exact reason why Kaiten's removal continues to receive such backlash, and is likely the reason why AST and DRG's mini reworks were delayed until the next expansion.

If you want a case of actual button bloat you can look at Paladin. Shield Bash might as well be removed because it is only used in incredibly rare circumstances such as Deep Dungeon. Cover got neutered in Shadowbringers it's honestly a wonder how it still exists too, because it's either broken or F-tier due to it being near impossible to balance. Sheltron and Intervention aren't combined like every other short Tank CD because...reasons?

We keep repeating ourselves on the forums beating a dead horse because we almost never receive any information on what they're going to do with them outside of part 2 of the PLL before major patches and before expansion launches. They asked people for their feedback on Kaiten's removal, and we got...nothing. It is no wonder at all that people on here are frustrated and tired of constantly repeating the same dead points just for it to be either ignored, never brought up, or yet another vague response. It took us 7 Years just to get Living Dead to finally not be a suicide mission. If you don't see an issue with that I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

A lot of people also advertise their ERP Lala diaper orgies on PF, it doesn't make it right.
They should also add optional AI mode that plays your character for you using the Trust AI system even in savage and ultimates, should be able to clear the fight with zero mistakes, that way we could all play Final Fantasy Cookie Clicker.

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You argument is so dumb, not even worth responding.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You argument is so dumb, not even worth responding.

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Just as dumb as pvp combos in pve, and you still responded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Dear. Christ.

Button bloat is such an overused term it should be damned and forbidden. There's a difference between having a lot of buttons that fit nicely with each other and having a lot (or too many) buttons that don't.

Samurai is not a case of button bloat, it wasn't before Kaiten's asinine removal, and it isn't now.

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I hear no nothing either by the players who want Kaiten to stay removed mentioning anything about...

• Shoha I and II merging/fusing
• Guren and Senei merging as 1 skill
• Ikishoten turning into Oginamikiri
• Iaijutsu button turning into Tsubame

Saving us " Four " buttons if we really needed to tackle button bloat without changing our Gameplay. None of these suggestions came to mind to any person that seemingly want Kaiten gone to solve that supposedly non-existing Button Bloat issue we had.

PvP combos in PvE is the day I quit the game and that's from someone that enjoys the new PvP.

Anyone who asks for XIVCombo, PVP combo in PVE, etc, probably ought to A: get good, B: stop selfreporting for using '3rd party plugins that make gameplay easier' (big nono), and C: go main healer for a while. You'll learn pretty quick that 'one button damage rotation' is actually very bloody boring. Or maybe you won't, and I'll have helped people find a more enjoyable main class, which I'd also consider a win.

If people want to have 'one button rotation' as a DPS though, uhh, play Bard. We've already lost enough depth from classes as it is, we don't need to have any more taken away. What else should we do while we're at it, remove the debuff upkeep from RPR? Remove the 1min DOT from SAM? Remove the DOTs from BRD and make it an actual 1 button class?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Anyone who asks for XIVCombo, PVP combo in PVE, etc, probably ought to A: get good, B: stop selfreporting for using '3rd party plugins that make gameplay easier' (big nono), and C: go main healer for a while. You'll learn pretty quick that 'one button damage rotation' is actually very bloody boring. Or maybe you won't, and I'll have helped people find a more enjoyable main class, which I'd also consider a win.

If people want to have 'one button rotation' as a DPS though, uhh, play Bard. We've already lost enough depth from classes as it is, we don't need to have any more taken away. What else should we do while we're at it, remove the debuff upkeep from RPR? Remove the 1min DOT from SAM? Remove the DOTs from BRD and make it an actual 1 button class?

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I agree.

Get rid of Eukrasian consolidation.

Paradox should be a separate button.

Each continuation on Gunbreaker should be its own button.

Iaijutsu? Separate buttons.

No more catering to the casuals! Everyone knows that the more buttons you have, the more hardcore your game is!

Red mages should have to press every single spell they have on a different keybind.

Summoner? 3 ruins or 10 ruins, they should be their own keybinds!

Ten Chi Jin? You should have to hit Ninjutsu between them, casual.

Every single consolidation needs to be removed, else somebody might look at my game and think it's too easy.

The farmer called and he would like his strawman back.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

The farmer called and he would like his strawman back.

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It's sliding down the slippery slope of 'QoL clearly means you're cheating'.

I'll let him know

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I hear no nothing either by the players who want Kaiten to stay removed mentioning anything about...

• Shoha I and II merging/fusing
• Guren and Senei merging as 1 skill
• Ikishoten turning into Oginamikiri
• Iaijutsu button turning into Tsubame

Saving us " Four " buttons if we really needed to tackle button bloat without changing our Gameplay. None of these suggestions came to mind to any person that seemingly want Kaiten gone to solve that supposedly non-existing Button Bloat issue we had.

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[*]Ikishoten turning into Oginamikiri[*]Iaijutsu button turning into Tsubame

this is what XIV Combo does, and how it should be.
The other two skills are not building upon each other, they are just Singletarget or AOE versions of the same thing, you could argue that you get a singletarget skill first , which later turns into a better version with AOE Damage.

Paladin has that with "Spirits Within" > "Expiacion" , you don't have two hotkeys and a shared cooldown here, so it could make sense to rework Shoha I and Shoha II into one skill and Senei Guren into one Skill that upgrades into an AOE version instead of an extra hotkey.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

[*]Ikishoten turning into Oginamikiri[*]Iaijutsu button turning into Tsubame

this is what XIV Combo does, and how it should be.
The other two skills are not building upon each other, they are just Singletarget or AOE versions of the same thing, you could argue that you get a singletarget skill first , which later turns into a better version with AOE Damage.

Paladin has that with "Spirits Within" > "Expiacion" , you don't have two hotkeys and a shared cooldown here, so it could make sense to rework Shoha I and Shoha II into one skill and Senei Guren into one Skill that upgrades into an AOE version instead of an extra hotkey.

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So if you do Hakaze, what does your XIVCombo do, since combo splits into 3. Does it just select right one depending on your Sen? If so, then it does decisions for you, in other words, computer is playing, not you. In that case, there is no longer need for other skills, and if you want to make it brain dead like that, then just follow all the way through and remove everything. Auto attack only from now on. Please look forward to it.

Mine (and many other's) point was that Iki going into Ogi and/or Iaijutsu into Tsubame would be better solution than removing Kaiten (if there really was button bloat problem). I think everyone sensible will agree that your basic GCDs should never be made this way. Otherwise you end up with healer rotation, and you can check healer forums to see how they like it. But now you're starting to understand. Kaiten didn't deserve to be removed when there are these simple and better alternatives.

I'm all in into merging Shinten, Senei and Shoha with their AoE counterparts btw, 2 variants of exact same skills are the real bloat.

As a side note, did lack of Kaiten made me full shizo or did like whole page of comments disappear from here?

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Originally Posted by Arohk

...this is what XIV Combo does, and how it should be...

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If they replace that emptiness with something. They can't even do that with just Kaiten.

XIV Combo seems completely unnecessary. Stop the victimhood and just practice. A singular " Kaiten " button will not stand in the way of you clearing content. As a busy GNB main? SAM would be a cakewalk. Unless you also XIV Combo GNB... which is against how FFXIV is meant to be played by the Designers. At least I see to who Square potentially wants to spoon-feed job Simplification to...

Samurai with many buttons to press is Fun. The weaving part is the Fun part. And thinking about proper Kenki management is Fun. Jobs are becoming excessively boring now. I'm chat and coffee-sip-weaving just to make my Job exciting to perform. How much more dumber do you want!- well you have XIV Combo... are you telling me you want FFXIV dumber then when it's played with XIV Combo... more prechewed then even that? do you want a Lala lifter to go with that supposedly high Job difficulty this game provides =__=;?

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Originally Posted by Deo14

but it's still dumb that tank has attack that can deal higher damage than Midare.

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Why, didn’t see an Afflatus Misery Direct Crit?
More than 100k on P8s P2 boss.
My Stardiver Jump record there was 80-ish K with a Direct Crit….
I guess this is SE “balancing” things….

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Originally Posted by Zairava

and is likely the reason why AST and DRG's mini reworks were delayed until the next expansion.

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Please, don’t make me think about this.
I’m positive SE will fuck up these two reworks…
Just…don’t please. Let me live in the lie there will be no rework for DRG and AST.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Auto combo concept can work, without making gameplay braindead, but not in this game.

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I have played other mmo's too, I always loved the combat in Balde and Soul though, you had very few hotkeys but still had to push a lot of buttons to play well.
Making the game more difficult simply by adding more and more unnecessary hotkeys is just stupid, i am not argueing for pushing 1 button all the time as a dps, that would be really boring. But having to use 35+ buttons or shift/alt modifications just to play the damn class is too much.
Why not have EVERY ability in the game on a separate hotkey, lets not consolidate anything then, just add 2-3 more hotbars and you're good to go, doesn't change the fact that a keyboard only has ~100 buttons and a hand has 5 fingers.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I have played other mmo's too, I always loved the combat in Balde and Soul though, you had very few hotkeys but still had to push a lot of buttons to play well.
Making the game more difficult simply by adding more and more unnecessary hotkeys is just stupid, i am not argueing for pushing 1 button all the time as a dps, that would be really boring. But having to use 35+ buttons or shift/alt modifications just to play the damn class is too much.
Why not have EVERY ability in the game on a separate hotkey, lets not consolidate anything then, just add 2-3 more hotbars and you're good to go, doesn't change the fact that a keyboard only has ~100 buttons and a hand has 5 fingers.

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" More buttons for the sake of More " is as meaningless as " Less buttons for the sake of Less" . Overused argument point, unless it adds Depth. Kaiten removal? just turned SAM into Shinten spamming i.e Hollow less Depth.

I know Blade & Soul and I loved Black Desert's design. But you cannot Copy paste a PvP Focused combat design onto FFXIV's PvE combat, something will not match nor make sense. Plus, no Job requires more then 36 hotkeys to be played, Limitbreak and Sprint Included. Players pull this off without an MMO mouse or on Controller as well. How you get to 100 Buttons for combat is beyond me... Hotkey'd Emotes and RP Macros?

Square has not proven once in the time that I have played from SHB that they can reduce the total amount of skills a Job has by one or more while adding more depth. If they can? I'm all for less Buttons. But they haven't, as far as I know. Feel free to correct me on this.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I have played other mmo's too, I always loved the combat in Balde and Soul though, you had very few hotkeys but still had to push a lot of buttons to play well.
Making the game more difficult simply by adding more and more unnecessary hotkeys is just stupid, i am not argueing for pushing 1 button all the time as a dps, that would be really boring. But having to use 35+ buttons or shift/alt modifications just to play the damn class is too much.
Why not have EVERY ability in the game on a separate hotkey, lets not consolidate anything then, just add 2-3 more hotbars and you're good to go, doesn't change the fact that a keyboard only has ~100 buttons and a hand has 5 fingers.

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I'm not saying that more buttons is better, but this game is just simply made with 25+ buttons in mind, that's the end of it. With 30-45 APM and 2-2.5 GCD, you have enough time to use any shift+XY modifiers or even mouse click. This is just borderline minimal difficulty. Auto combo will hopefully not ever be implemented, so I would recommend to have a look at your keybinds.

If you find so difficult to use shift modifiers, you can get MMO mouse, or just do what everyone who THINKS there is too much buttons should do, and that is spending more than 10 seconds assigning your keybinds and more than 20 minutes testing it. I've checked my SAM keybinds and counted 7 button presses (if I fight ST) with shift modifier every 2 minutes. If I swapped few situational skills, I could bring it to 4 per 2 minutes windows. Rest is just regular 1-7, F1-F7 (last buttons which are somewhat far is just for Feint and Arm's Length), then just regular Q, E, F, G, T, M4 and M5. This is really not too many buttons, just do your keybinds properly.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I'm not saying that more buttons is better, but this game is just simply made with 25+ buttons in mind, that's the end of it. With 30-45 APM and 2-2.5 GCD, you have enough time to use any shift+XY modifiers or even mouse click. This is just borderline minimal difficulty. Auto combo will hopefully not ever be implemented, so I would recommend to have a look at your keybinds.

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Agreed. FFXIV's Job gameplay is not difficult. Every Job has nuances, but after Square lobotomizes nearly everything... Job difficulty becomes utterly meaningless. Compare it to say Black Deserts design where you have

• Positional increased bonus DPS
• Positional Crowd Control
• Positional Crowd Control upon you!
• Increased DPS based on how you CC someone
• Numerous Combinations of Combo's like a Fighting game
• Attack angles can be approached from slopes cliffs towers walls etc
• Interactions with having or facing opponents with Mana / Stamina and Guard Gauges
• Mobility maneuvers tight to said resources
• Multiple skills give brief DPS/Cast speed/Move speed buffs lasting for seconds
• Multiple skills can CC in multiple ways
• This game deals with Classes having Grabs to throw you down to the ground
• Nearly every Attack as an AoE so you can miss everything!
• Attacks and moves with Frontal Guard
• Attack and moves with Super armor ( immunity vs CC with increased defense )
• Moves with Iframes ( A small frame where you're untouchable )
• Every player has Black Spirit Rage, essentially your limit break not just a party

Comparing Black Deserts Classes combat design to FFXIV Jobs? it just has more depth. But that doesn't mean this can be applied or is perfect because this is still a PvP focused design, this is why Black Deserts PvE is just a grind fest. It's just to showcase how simple FFXIV's job design is. It has nothing of any of this. FFXIV's job design is not complex and its sad to see it become from simple to out right dumb and lobotomized.

Square can do way better then this, they shown they can - but for some reason we're on this pathway to make jobs Dumber, less Buttons, less flare, less thinking, less of everything at the cost of what? unobtainable perfect balance? pleasing some players who won't even put in the effort to read some tooltips or a touch striking dummy once a month? Their little finger breaking cause it's 1 button to much to handle with their XIVcombo Plugin? bleh...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Get rid of Eukrasian consolidation.

Paradox should be a separate button.

Each continuation on Gunbreaker should be its own button.


Summoner? 3 ruins or 10 ruins, they should be their own keybinds!

Ten Chi Jin? You should have to hit Ninjutsu between them, casual.

Every single consolidation needs to be removed, else somebody might look at my game and think it's too easy.

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These ones specifically are funny to me. Eukrasia only saves us 3 buttons total. I've got a second copy of Krasis where my Adlo is on SCH (2), because of Eukrasia's space-saving effect. It would change a lot less than you think.

Paradox being it's own button probably wouldn't change anything either. It's not like we use Blizzard 1 for anything anymore, so BLMs would just move it there and manually replace Bliz 1. Just like the game automatically does now, I guess.

GNB used to have it's Gnashing Fang combo as seperate buttons, and I still don't really like that they consolidated it. 1-2-1-2-1-2 isn't as fun feeling as 1-4-2-4-3-4. And Continuation would remain consolidated, despite your exaggeration, because it's the 'pull the trigger to enhance the effect of the used skill' button. You're pulling the trigger the same way for each Continuation, it's the previous skill that changes what it does. Better not let me near the design sheets though, or I'll make Burst Strike the Continuation of your 123 (any step), Hypervelocity from DoubleDown, Fated Circle from your AOE 1/2 combo (either step), Blasting Zone costs a cartridge, Solid Barrel generates two, your Max is six like in the trailer, and Bloodfest generates six. You thought APM was rough now, my design will have your hands falling off

Summoner might actually be a fun and well received class if it had stuff more seperated. If you could summon any of the six base primals, and mix/match their skills in any order (having summoned them to get their lego-power first), it'd potentially be a lot more interesting than 'this is Ruin 3, but the cast time is longer' and 'this is Ruin 3, but the cast time is instant'. Seriously, why does it just reuse Ruin 3's animation, couldn't they recolor it or anything? Anyway, imagine the primal skills are more creative. Ifrit's filler skill is no longer 'long cast time', instead allowing you to conjure phantom Ifrit arms to slice at the enemy, doing a Cone AOE. Titan's filler skill a Landslide line AOE, which you then follow up with the OGCD weave of Mountain Buster (cone AOE). Shiva's skills are a three part combo of Staff (circle AOE on enemy), Bow (cone AOE), Sword/Shield (Cone AOE again). etc. BLU feels more like what I'd want SMN's filler GCDs to look like

And NIN used to have to press Ninjutsu between each Mudra during TCJ. 1-4-2-4-3-4. It was this way for all of 4.0, and 5.0, it only changed in 5.1 when they made the Mudras GCD.

But yeh we should remove absolutely every single button consolidation in the game, regardless of their practicality, or sensibility. And not what I was getting at, the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222' is really stupid and the mark of a bad player. Some consolidations are good. Consolidating Shoha and Shoha2 for example would be good. Some stuff should have been consolidated upgrades instead of seperate buttons, eg Orogeny for WAR should have been an upgrade to Upheaval that gave AOE falloff, not 'lmao seperate button with shared CD'. Looking into it, I even see a couple I'd say 'yep that's good', like Ikishoten becoming Ogi, or Scattershot becoming Autocrossbow during Overheat. But then you have the stupid side of what the plugin does, consolidating the main GCD loop of the class. Or, by the looks of it, making it so you don't even need to press 1-2 for Continuation in Gnashing Fang, as it puts the Continuation onto the same button? So you have a burst window of 111111, incredible. And I'm meant to take someone who advocates for that kind of change seriously, at least it explains who SE's designing jobs for

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222'

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wtf
Maybe we do need that anti-cheat tool implemented after all, ban all those people from existence.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But yeh we should remove absolutely every single button consolidation in the game, regardless of their practicality, or sensibility. And not what I was getting at, the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222' is really stupid and the mark of a bad player.

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This. " XIVCombo " reeks of AutoPlaying and laziness. How this even is a suggestible way of playing is out right shameful. If players want to do it? w/e. But players shouldn't suggest dragging everyone else into forcefully wanting to play the game like it is with XIVCombo... like what in the...

The repeated argument points Kaiten seemingly always 1 button to difficult and simultaneously mocked as a Button " you press every-time " to easy by posters who swap from to ez and to difficult when it suits their narrative? Even though Kaiten never stood in the way of clearing Content... Skill-issues? like Steven He would put it: " Failures ".

You know what would be a better argument point that I rarely ever get to hear as the main argument against Kaiten? " Kaiten isn't Fun ". That's a good argument point. Instead I get...

• Badly designed because I have no idea
• You needed XIV Combo a plugin to deal with it
• Current button count is somehow to much
• Its a button you press every time btw
• Kaiten is pointless, yet somehow ever other self-buff button isn't
• GNB/MCH main, but I play SAM maybe in guildhest! here's my un-experienced take

I'll never hear players trying to proof how much more thoughtful Shinten spamming is as good design. So at the very least how much more Fun that is without Kaiten <- also something you'll rarely hear as the main argument point.

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

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You have option to do 1-2 which deals more damage or 1-3 which heals you. Well, now you have a choice, but why would you ever do 1-3 when you have dedicated healer? Why would tank use option which gives more mitigation, when damage is all that matters in this game? Another way are procs, but then you just do X, if it procs you do Y, if not Z. So tell me, what kind of skill expression do you expect in this game without reworking entire combat?

There are DRG combos. Technically you have a choice, but obviously there is predetermined optimal rotation. WAR uses 1-2-4 to keep buff, 1-2-3 for damage. But this is peak of skill expression you can make in this game. This is just fate of every rotation, not just in FFXIV. There will always be optimal way, having "choice" to fuck it up by pressing wrong button is last possible skill expression.

You try to claim that 1-2-3 is barely a skill and that it's not interesting. But this is last skill capacity this game has. And if it really was so easy as you suggest, then why is there such a significant deviation while parsing ANY kind of content? There are dungeons and trials which have striking dummies as a boss, yet people still can't even do their rotation properly here, or in a lot of cases, don't even know it. This uninteresting 1-2-3 is last thing that gives job's gameplay any depth. Why would you want to make this even easier than it is, if you suck, it doesn't even matter since only Savage+ has DPS checks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

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Willingly forcing healer rotations on yourself is the kind of masochism I can’t get my head around

The main reason why variations in performance exist is because of uptime, not because you can't remember that button two follows button one. Combos are more a tactile aesthetic than they are any form of skill expression.

If you want decision-making, then you need to have some element of randomness, either in the rotation itself or in the fight design.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

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:3 ...............................................

( these players exist - these players exist - these players exist - these.... )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

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You're right, so we should change PLD from 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 to 1-1-1-1-1-1-2 /s

How can you, on one hand, consistently call out WHM for being the stalest white bread imaginable, and then on the other ask for other non-caster classes to have their main filler be reduced to that same white-bread status? You think eg DRG will stay 'more interesting' than the healers because of their burst? The fact they press High Jump each 30s like how WHM presses Assize every 45? SMN's already bordering on healer-levels of 'press mostly one button' and it's the most divisive job in the game, it's like radioactive Marmite

Pressing Atonement after finishing Royal Authority isn't 'interesting', sure. But I still mess it up on rare occasions. It's something 'more' to think about than onebutton 'you are physically incapable of screwing up' mode. Same as how Kaiten and 'remember to save 20 gauge for it instead of mashing Shinten brainlessly' is not 'hard' per se, or even 'interesting' to some. But it's definitely 'more' than what we have now, where we just press Shinten when we're going to overcap, and spam mash it in raidbuffs

The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

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Originally Posted by Deo14

You try to claim that 1-2-3 is barely a skill and that it's not interesting. But this is last skill capacity this game has. And if it really was so easy as you suggest, then why is there such a significant deviation while parsing ANY kind of content? There are dungeons and trials which have striking dummies as a boss, yet people still can't even do their rotation properly here, or in a lot of cases, don't even know it. This uninteresting 1-2-3 is last thing that gives job's gameplay any depth. Why would you want to make this even easier than it is, if you suck, it doesn't even matter since only Savage+ has DPS checks.

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Hitting positionals is one thing we still have, but some people want that to be removed too. Some bosses already don't have positionals, I can't wait for melee to be able to just stand wherever tf they like, having 100% uptime because the boss's hitbox is the size of a continent, and still get 10% more damage than the other roles because of the bloody 'ranged tax' or 'res tax' or whatever ridiculous explanation. What's the reasoning for 'why melee is justified in doing so much more damage than ranged in P7S', where 90% of the arena is 'you can hit the boss from here'?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Hitting positionals is one thing we still have, but some people want that to be removed too. Some bosses already don't have positionals, I can't wait for melee to be able to just stand wherever tf they like, having 100% uptime because the boss's hitbox is the size of a continent, and still get 10% more damage than the other roles because of the bloody 'ranged tax' or 'res tax' or whatever ridiculous explanation. What's the reasoning for 'why melee is justified in doing so much more damage than ranged in P7S', where 90% of the arena is 'you can hit the boss from here'?

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People that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste, hate fun and they're are as bad as the people that use the combo plugin.
Range tax needs to exist, but so does small hitboxes and plenty of positionals for melee to do extra work.
The range tax and melee having to work for uptime against small hitbox bosses + positionals is key and needs to exist at the same time, if one is removed then the other role lose their purpose other than providing role bonuses.

Could make an entire thread regarding positional removal. Players reasonings for removing it seems flawed to me. Just because Endwalker is meme'd as Meleewalker, does not make the entirety of FFXIV suddenly catered to Melee everything / Melee uptime / Melee positional / Melee Giant hit boxes - but so many hyper-focuses on current content because that's all that matters. And we don't know what the next patch or expansion has in store. Plus the fact not every Melee player worth their salt as mentioned before even asked for gigantic hitboxes or easy melee uptime. Fighting for uptime was a lot more exciting then big gigantic boxes. So it's not like I wanted them, its Square's design direction forced on us and we're like " okey-dokey ".

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Could make an entire thread regarding positional removal. Players reasonings for removing it seems flawed to me.

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I don't mind positional attacks personaly, but bosses spin around way too much right now, its not even the tanks fault, its so annoying when you position your self push the button for your positional attack and in that exact moment the boss turns around and you miss it, depending which melee you play, true north cooldown feels way too long.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

People that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste, hate fun and they're are as bad as the people that use the combo plugin.
Range tax needs to exist, but so does small hitboxes and plenty of positionals for melee to do extra work.
The range tax and melee having to work for uptime against small hitbox bosses + positionals is key and needs to exist at the same time, if one is removed then the other role lose their purpose other than providing role bonuses.

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I'm all for shrinking the hitbox down, but I'm completely whatever about positionals. I don't think they really add anything to the combat so I don't really care if they stay or go.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

How can you, on one hand, consistently call out WHM for being the stalest white bread imaginable, and then on the other ask for other non-caster classes to have their main filler be reduced to that same white-bread status?
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The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

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You have answered your own question. What makes you think giving the stalest white bread class imaginable a 1-2-3 combo would in any way suddenly make it acceptable to play? For the same reason 1-2-3 combos aren't magically made interesting or choice-facilitating by the sheer incredulity of non-monk melee players. Push for better combat.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

You have answered your own question. What makes you think giving the stalest white bread class imaginable a 1-2-3 combo would in any way suddenly make it acceptable to play? For the same reason 1-2-3 combos aren't magically made interesting or choice-facilitating by the sheer incredulity of non-monk melee players. Push for better combat.

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Turning everything into 1 button isn't "better combat"

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Pressing Atonement after finishing Royal Authority isn't 'interesting', sure. But I still mess it up on rare occasions. It's something 'more' to think about than onebutton 'you are physically incapable of screwing up' mode. Same as how Kaiten and 'remember to save 20 gauge for it instead of mashing Shinten brainlessly' is not 'hard' per se, or even 'interesting' to some. But it's definitely 'more' than what we have now, where we just press Shinten when we're going to overcap, and spam mash it in raidbuffs

The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

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People don't justify PvP combos as fun in PvE, but the PvP gameplay aspects where they can use utility and environment to their advantage. There are skills that have a direct change in PvP due to how unscripted and crazy damage can be. Binds/Stuns/knockbacks can have a huge impact in gameplay to create different opportunities for unique skills and environmental aspects to take into effect, and these are usually not part of your filler PvP combo. Your filler PvP button usually just does damage or does a small heal like in PvE, but your actual skills for engagement is on a much lower cooldown. The lower cooldown (like 15 to 30 second skills), coupled with engaging fights (disabling enemies that can really destroy your team or comboing your CC together) makes for a completely different gameplay experience.

This is something PvE lacks entirely as everything in PvE is now just a numbers game -- you heal more, you mitigate some damage, you shield damage, or you do more DPS. Then you do the mechanic properly because there isn't a way to prevent it outside of doing more dps to possibly skip a phase. Forgetting to press Dragondive in PvE isn't going to change much outside of just lowering your DPS during a burst window. There's simply too much scripted gameplay in PvE to deviate from doing your static rotation and burst window every 120 seconds. Simply put, the game is tailored to be played as a DPS who can execute a perfect rotation and not much outside of that.

Very few abilities that isn't just a numbers modifier and gain situational value very often outside of Expedient (also 120 seconds, so very few uses) exist in PvE. Very few abilities are Esuna'd or need to be Esuna'd, and in most cases only the healer can do the Esuna one player at a time on the GCD. PvE Gameplay is not very reactive as PvP works, it's very scripted to only correctly doing mechanics and there's no other way to resolve them. There's nothing really like sleeping/binding enemies matter anymore in general PvE content. There's nothing like knocking an enemy down and making them take incredible amounts of fall damage to whittle them away, or even disabling their cast of a certain skill -- and not by just pressing the interrupt role skill either (stuns simply don't work instead of having diminishing gains and letting the boss cleanse out of them). Stuff like that simply doesn't work on bosses and while it's good for game balance, it's also bad because there isn't much you can do other than properly dodge the bosses' mechanics and do the same kind of aoe on trash packs.

Can you imagine if there was parts of a map where you can just gather the enemies up a cliff, then yeet them away with Malediction of water and let them take fall damage or even push them into a lava pit to take high DoT damage and thereby ending them entirely? For ninjas in PvP, using Fleeting Raiju isn't just because it does damage for single target -- it's the stun-lock and gap closer that people use it. There's a lot more ways where you can gain utility from locking an enemy up in a position or to dash away from a bad position because the cooldown to these skills are low enough that it doesn't matter if you don't get aim for highest DPS out of them because their secondary effects are just as good in the right situations.

Sometimes, I think if we had PvP gameplay against many PvE enemies that act as a mini boss with much faster cast time speeds, but have the ability to be locked down accordingly like in PvP, things would be very different in how players tackled the game.

I wouldn't have minded that too much even if I still hate the idea of guaranteed crits, but kaiten granting direct hits would definitely have reduced the feeling of everything hitting like a wet noodle now.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I wouldn't have minded that too much even if I still hate the idea of guaranteed crits, but kaiten granting direct hits would definitely have reduced the feeling of everything hitting like a wet noodle now.

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that's what I'm talking about the entire time.
Direct Crits still look Good and being able to throw them out through Resource Management would still be awesome

Quite an interesting thread!

I'm a post-kaiten SAM (namely I didn't try/play as one until after kaiten was removed) and therefore never experienced it. A pity, since I enjoy the job and it sounds as if kaiten made it more effective.