Change the duty finder penalty

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I was addressing the fact that someone said OP was problematic for wanting to leave after 6 wipes in the first place.

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It wouldn't be if he just "leaves", in fact many are saying he should just do exactly that. The problematic part is he claim those 6 wipes should be a license to leave without incurring a penalty.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It wouldn't be if he just "leaves", in fact many are saying he should just do exactly that. The problematic part is he claim those 6 wipes should be a license to leave without incurring a penalty.

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In fairness it should be a reduced penalty. 6 wipes on a story dungeon? Starts to sound like a lost cause. The person who tried and failed at no fault of their own shouldn’t be punished so harshly.

A player causing the duty to turn out like this one in particular should be respectful of other people. Understand you are holding people up. After getting advice, and still not getting it together, try again later after practicing mechanics, or watching a video. Or at the very least, actually reading the advice given to you and attempting to put that theory into practical

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It wouldn't be if he just "leaves", in fact many are saying he should just do exactly that. The problematic part is he claim those 6 wipes should be a license to leave without incurring a penalty.

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This is what I was responding to;

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if the majority thinks the run I'd fine and vote abandon doesn't go through maybe the person who wants to desperately leave is the problem? Food for thought.

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Not about the penalty or lack there of, but the wanting to leave in general. It's literally two pages back. So yes, someone did say that wanting to leave in that situation was a problem.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

In fairness it should be a reduced penalty. 6 wipes on a story dungeon? Starts to sound like a lost cause.

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Sometime it just happens. The reason why it's easy for veteran because we can recognize most mechanic even if we run it the first time, 'cause we have seen its variation over the years. The endwalker first lvl90 was a wipe fest as well, I was part of that wipe fest and I'm a Ultimate raider simply because the first boss had a mechanic that I rarely recognize.

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After getting advice, and still not getting it together, try again later after practicing mechanics, or watching a video. Or at the very least, actually reading the advice given to you and attempting to put that theory into practical

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How about ... no. I'm someone who will NEVER tell someone to go watch a video. Especially for a "story" dungeon, that's like asking people to spoil the story for the shake of your own convenience. I've never watched a video, and I will never see it appropriate to tell other to do so for my own entitlement.

Also we only have OP's word to go buy, we never know what kind of "advise" he gave or how useful it is. Given the way he came across in this thread, I wouldn't be surprise he gave some instruction that didn't make sense to a new player. That's why you need more than just expert knowledge to teach someone, that's why Pedagogy is a thing.

You can have a Ph.D mathematics explain simple problem to a 5 grader and the 5 grader walking away understand nothing of value, and that wouldn't be the 5th grader's fault.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Sometime it just happens. The reason why it's easy for veteran because we can recognize most mechanic even if we run it the first time, 'cause we have seen its variation over the years. The endwalker first lvl90 was a wipe fest as well, I was part of that wipe fest and I'm a Ultimate raider simply because the first boss had a mechanic that I rarely recognize.



How about ... no. I'm someone who will NEVER tell someone to go watch a video. Especially for a "story" dungeon, that's like asking people to spoil the story for the shake of your own convenience. I've never watched a video, and I will never see it appropriate to tell other to do so for my own entitlement.

Also we only have OP's word to go buy, we never know what kind of "advise" he gave or how useful it is. Given the way he came across in this thread, I wouldn't be surprise he gave some instruction that didn't make sense to a new player. That's why you need more than just expert knowledge to teach someone, that's why Pedagogy is a thing.

You can have a Ph.D mathematics explain simple problem to a 5 grader and the 5 grader walking away understand nothing of value, and that wouldn't be the 5th grader's fault.

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If the op tried, according to their account if things, 6 times, why are they still deserving of a punishment? op had way more patience than I have. It’s not like it’s a “I didn’t get the duty I want so let me re queue” and it’s not like early ARR days where roulettes didn’t exist and replacements were hard to come by. That being the cause for penalties initially btw. They have an honest effort. Took extra steps by explaining mechanics and even having a player marked to follow. But despite all that, punish them

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

If the op tried, according to their account if things, 6 times, why are they still deserving of a punishment? op had way more patience than I have. It’s not like it’s a “I didn’t get the duty I want so let me re queue” and it’s not like early ARR days where roulettes didn’t exist and replacements were hard to come by. That being the cause for penalties initially btw. They have an honest effort. Took extra steps by explaining mechanics and even having a player marked to follow. But despite all that, punish them

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Because none of that matter. Someone put it in a fairly simple but effective way: you're duty bound. When you use the Duty Finder, you're promised none of the following:

- You will be teamed with competent player.
- Your teamate had done their homework. (Watched Guide/Video).
- You will clear the instance in less than 6 wipe (or 10 wipes for that matter).

In fact, you can also expect the complete opposite to happen. But there is one thing that is expected of you:

- You will stay until the duty is clear, or when it's expired, or when the group collectively decides to quit.

That's it . You have the choice to opt out at any time you wish at the cost of a small penalty. If any of these term displease you, you can opt to use party finder for a more customizable set of expectation, as well a free opt out clause. When you use DF, you accept the risk above, no matter how small.


While I know it's inherently a bad word, but here I want to point out "entitlement" as a definition. To claim you deserve to be given an exception to the rule because of xyz is entitlement by definition, regardless how reasonable xyz is. The opposite of that is to accept the rule apply the same to all. And usually, the rule is most enforcable when it is simple. Introduce exception is like create loophole or trojan that may increase the risk of exploit or abuse.


At the very least, you will open the can of worm once you start making exception. Because people gonna argue all kind of different xyz.
- I should not be punished because because other people suck.
- I should not be punished because real life emergency happened.
- I should not be punished because event outside of my control.
- I should not be punished because I already put in enough effort.
- I should not be punished because the group made me feel uncomfortable.
.etc.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I agree you can just leave, as irritating as it may be to waste that much time only to waste more, but that's not what I was addressing. I was addressing the fact that someone said OP was problematic for wanting to leave after 6 wipes in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

This is what I was responding to;

Not about the penalty or lack there of, but the wanting to leave in general. It's literally two pages back. So yes, someone did say that wanting to leave in that situation was a problem.

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That's because it is a problem. When you abandon a duty, you inconvenience the players you leave behind and they have to wait for a replacement in order to continue the duty. The penalty is in place in order to de-incentivize leaving the duty when things aren't going their way. The entire group suffers as a result of those six wipes, not just the OP. His suggestion on not incurring a penalty after a certain number of wipes, and another posters suggestion on not getting it after a certain amount of time has passed is irrelevant because you are bound by the conditions of the duty (timer, ilv, objectives, number of players etc.)

By abandoning a duty, you are effectively stating that your time is more important than everyone else's. This does not include those who have a RL situation come up and need to leave the duty in order to take care of it. That's not the case here though, and a 30min penalty would be redundant in that case. The OP clearly wants to leave and immediately try again with a fresh set of players because the current group are not performing to his standards.

All I can suggest to OP is to find someone to run content with. I never have these problems in 4 person content. The person just gets removed after a couple attempts

I think a better solution would be a reduction in the timer for dungeons 60mins or even 40mins would be much better.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I think a better solution would be a reduction in the timer for dungeons 60mins or even 40mins would be much better.

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Already been suggested. Some here are hell bent on seeing it through to the end or suffer the consequences

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Already been suggested. Some here are hell bent on seeing it through to the end or suffer the consequences

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You suggested a reduction after wipes. I'm saying dungeons should all be reduced to 60mins or 40mins instead of the current 90mins. No one should need 90 mins to do a dungeon. As for the penalty that needs to stay as it is.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I personally suggested a reduction after time spent in duty. Nothing to do with wipes. But I’m telling you, you won’t win these people over.

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Still not the same :P

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

You suggested a reduction after wipes. I'm saying dungeons should all be reduced to 60mins or 40mins instead of the current 90mins. No one should need 90 mins to do a dungeon. As for the penalty that needs to stay as it is.

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I personally suggested a reduction after time spent in duty. Nothing to do with wipes. But I’m telling you, you won’t win these people over.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Already been suggested. Some here are hell bent on seeing it through to the end or suffer the consequences

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I did join an in progress Dead Ends run the other week where we managed to beat it with 2 mins left on the timer.
I'm kinda conflicted on the matter, cause on the one hand, an hour and a half to beat a dungeon is pretty excessive, but on the other, that newbie healer would probably have got stuck right before the climax of the story, and that makes me feel bad.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's because it is a problem. When you abandon a duty, you inconvenience the players you leave behind and they have to wait for a replacement in order to continue the duty. The penalty is in place in order to de-incentivize leaving the duty when things aren't going their way. The entire group suffers as a result of those six wipes, not just the OP. His suggestion on not incurring a penalty after a certain number of wipes, and another posters suggestion on not getting it after a certain amount of time has passed is irrelevant because you are bound by the conditions of the duty (timer, ilv, objectives, number of players etc.)

By abandoning a duty, you are effectively stating that your time is more important than everyone else's. This does not include those who have a RL situation come up and need to leave the duty in order to take care of it. That's not the case here though, and a 30min penalty would be redundant in that case. The OP clearly wants to leave and immediately try again with a fresh set of players because the current group are not performing to his standards.

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Look, I am not arguing in favour of giving exceptions to the penalty. I have not stated once I want the penalty gone, in fact, I've said the opposite a few times now.

But to claim that someone is a problematic person for wanting to leave because the party is unable to clear is so asinine to me. Because the part you are leaving out is that you sign up for DF to help each other clear. And guess what? There was no clearing. If he had left within the first few minutes, or even after the first wipe, sure, problematic. But to want to leave after 6 attempts? Nah. He was well within reason to want that.

Makes me go to this;

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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While I know it's inherently a bad word, but here I want to point out "entitlement" as a definition. To claim you deserve to be given an exception to the rule because of xyz is entitlement by definition, regardless how reasonable xyz is. The opposite of that is to accept the rule apply the same to all. And usually, the rule is most enforcable when it is simple. Introduce exception is like create loophole or trojan that may increase the risk of exploit or abuse.
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By definition, entitlement would also be expecting to be completely carried through the content you are doing and expecting everyone to stick it through until you get your clear even when you are obviously lacking the required skill to clear and are holding the group back.

I'm not saying that that person didn't deserve a clear. But the vote abandon should have gone through and that person (two people i believe) should have practiced a bit.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

What I am getting out of this, and has been my experience, is that new Ascian Prime is a far more difficult boss than before, I have had a substantial amount of wipes whenever it comes up, I never gotten to 6 wipes, but I had 4 or so almost regularly, ever since 6.3 dropped, I have yet to have an Aetherochemical run that doesn't have at least one wipe, it's even better if your party dies immediately before Arcane Revelation, as you can't clear that solo no matter what, nor can you be slapped to death by autos, so you have to rely on the Shades appearing and purposefully standing on their AoEs... which might take a few rounds even as DPS...

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

What I am getting out of this, and has been my experience, is that new Ascian Prime is a far more difficult boss than before, I have had a substantial amount of wipes whenever it comes up, I never gotten to 6 wipes, but I had 4 or so almost regularly, ever since 6.3 dropped, I have yet to have an Aetherochemical run that doesn't have at least one wipe, it's even better if your party dies immediately before Arcane Revelation, as you can't clear that solo no matter what, nor can you be slapped to death by autos, so you have to rely on the Shades appearing and purposefully standing on their AoEs... which might take a few rounds even as DPS...

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Wait wait wait wait wait... they're dying at Arcane Revelation? o.o Shouldn't the biggest issue thing there be Universal Manipulation? I mean this because if you lag a little or take too long to get swallowed by a black hole, you'll get hit by the raidwide. Arcane Revelation is just... "kill the orb" ._.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Wait wait wait wait wait... they're dying at Arcane Revelation? o.o Shouldn't the biggest issue thing there be Universal Manipulation? I mean this because if you lag a little or take too long to get swallowed by a black hole, you'll get hit by the raidwide. Arcane Revelation is just... "kill the orb" ._.

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They are dying before Arcane Revelation, usually what gets them is the Ice/Fire orbs, that happens to happen so regularly that it is usually the last mechanic before Arcane Revelation, and you can't avoid Universal Manipulation anymore, you just have to eat it, and deal with the debuffs it applies, which will cause a number of mechanics to occur as the debuffs run out.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

They are dying before Arcane Revelation, usually what gets them is the Ice/Fire orbs, that happens to happen so regularly that it is usually the last mechanic before Arcane Revelation, and you can't avoid Universal Manipulation anymore, you just have to eat it, and deal with the debuffs it applies, which will cause a number of mechanics to occur as the debuffs run out.

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...but to die before that... you basically have to do it on purpose :x like standing in AoEs.


...I'm giving sprouts too much credit, aren't I?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...but to die before that... you basically have to do it on purpose :x like standing in AoEs.


...I'm giving sprouts too much credit, aren't I?

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Some people I’ve noticed have trouble with the order the tethers go off and if it’s stand in the donut, or away from the giant circle. Also to do one directly after the other

Now here is the real answer. You can have a draw on Duty Abandon vote. You cannot have one on a kick vote. Do what you will with that information.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

In fairness it should be a reduced penalty. 6 wipes on a story dungeon? Starts to sound like a lost cause.

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Well, the reason for the penalty to not scale down is because its generaly going to cause a leaving streak. Even if its a staggered system, people will still go for that limit. If leaving now gives 5min penalty, its tempting to do that as even a toilet break is already a long enough wait to make it expire.

Leaving at the start or after 15mins is both 30mins. As 30mins is above the average duty completion time, it effectively is always a penalty with the duration of a duty. Even if you are 30mins into the duty, there usualy is progress. Wiping at the same part doesnt always mean the same thing, players can still be more efficient, but just not understand that specific mechanic. Leviathan Extreme is a prime example of facing a lot of wipes, and suddenly completing without any hassle. And thats why 30mins helps. Its almost never worth it to leave as the penalty will be anoying.

But the key here is chat. If the chat is inactive, then its unlikely improvements will take place as no hints are given for improvement at all. When people are chatting, it can often get people to explain mechanics faster, or tips at handling them. With 6 wipes and no one in chat reponding at all, that would even make me leave. 30mins doing some sidequests beats constant wipes in teams that show no motivation. With chat we can see the progress a lot better, or identify the problem player. And either guide him towards improvement, or kick (especialy without any chatting, the risk here is higher. admitting you are the problem is often a good start at improving, its nothing to be ashamed off).

And luckily most of the duties only have 60mins in total, so even if you want to leave at 30mins, you still would end up with a similar time to not completing it at all. But here is where i think some gracefullness could be welcome. Since leaving at 15mins remaining should not give 30minutes. It should at most be equal towards the duty remainder.

While I do understand the frustration of getting into a trial roulette (as an example) and it taking 20+ minutes because of multiple wipes... there is the "leave and take 30 minute penalty" option. There are other things you can do in-game (and more importantly) out of game with those 30 minutes. I've found that Vote Abandon usually is taken up after a few wipes, depending on the situation. Speaking for myself, if there is a first-timer, I don't vote abandon. Chances are, I'm only IN that instance because I chose roulette and this is what I got. In exchange for a bonus of tomestones, I help out a player in need. That's the entire design of roulette - to fill slots in otherwise unfilled duties.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Look, I am not arguing in favour of giving exceptions to the penalty. I have not stated once I want the penalty gone, in fact, I've said the opposite a few times now.

But to claim that someone is a problematic person for wanting to leave because the party is unable to clear is so asinine to me. Because the part you are leaving out is that you sign up for DF to help each other clear. And guess what? There was no clearing. If he had left within the first few minutes, or even after the first wipe, sure, problematic. But to want to leave after 6 attempts? Nah. He was well within reason to want that.

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That's fine if you feel that way. I'm not chastising you or the OP for wanting to leave, and have stated that you are free to do so. What I am pointing out are the circumstances and problems that develop for abandoning. That's why there is a penalty for leaving a duty you are bound to. You can initiate a vote to abandon, and if it doesn't go your way that means you are in the minority who wishes to leave. I pointed out why it is problematic by abandoning, and by extension that makes the player who chooses to leave a problem as well.

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Makes me go to this;


By definition, entitlement would also be expecting to be completely carried through the content you are doing and expecting everyone to stick it through until you get your clear even when you are obviously lacking the required skill to clear and are holding the group back.

I'm not saying that that person didn't deserve a clear. But the vote abandon should have gone through and that person (two people i believe) should have practiced a bit.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

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The entitlement you speak of in this situation doesn't belong to the players within the duty having trouble. It actually belongs to the player who thinks a vote abandon should go their way because the group is having trouble clearing it. Especially if they feel like those players are expecting to be carried. For all you know, those players could already be feeling down because they are not performing very well in the first place. I would avoid accusations towards players you weren't even grouped with if you want to establish a point on how the OP is not the problem in this situation.

I personally follow a two wipe rule for older story content. Game has enough to do that 30 min goes by fairly quick.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I personally follow a two wipe rule for older story content. Game has enough to do that 30 min goes by fairly quick.

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it should be 3 minimum, since people need one more extra try to solve new (for them) mechanics.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

By definition, entitlement would also be expecting to be completely carried through the content you are doing and expecting everyone to stick it through until you get your clear even when you are obviously lacking the required skill to clear and are holding the group back.

I'm not saying that that person didn't deserve a clear. But the vote abandon should have gone through and that person (two people i believe) should have practiced a bit.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

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How do you know they're expected to be carried? How do you know they're simply trying hard and just failing?

As someone had said, four people suffered these wipe together. Unless the other players was AFKing while the OP bang his head against wall by himself, I don't see how the OP is the exclusive victim here.

Expecting your group to stay together to the end is not entitlement because that's the default expectation when you click on that join duty button. If it is, it's still far less an entitlement then someone who are expecting special treatment to the rule 'cause things don't go their way.

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To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

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- And absolutely nobody said that.

- You are free to leave at any time.

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

You're keeping twisting and mingle these 3 separate things together, it's called muddy up an argument.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

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Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

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I think this logic is only just shy of eating it's own tail.

If anything I think the abandon penalty should be higher for some duties or Data Centers. If I queue on Dynamis and get a party after 60 minutes of queueing, I don't want to get kicked back out to queue another 60 minutes because someone had a tantrum, and have their punishment be less than the time it takes for me to find a replacement party.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

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Precisely.

The rule had its place a long time ago. When tanks would queue up and leave immediately to troll dps queues. These dps would wait 30 minutes or more, finally get the duty to pop, just for the tank to leave and put the dps at the back of the queue line. With no roulettes and limited tanks, it was near impossible to get a replacement before the duty ended. That’s why we have the penalty in the first place.

Times have changed. I think the rules should reflect that. Not advocating for being rid of the penalty altogether. But more leniency. A reduced timer. Something, as the cause in the first place is hardly an issue now

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

How do you know they're expected to be carried? How do you know they're simply trying hard and just failing?

As someone had said, four people suffered these wipe together. Unless the other players was AFKing while the OP bang his head against wall by himself, I don't see how the OP is the exclusive victim here.

Expecting your group to stay together to the end is not entitlement because that's the default expectation when you click on that join duty button. If it is, it's still far less an entitlement then someone who are expecting special treatment to the rule 'cause things don't go their way.




- And absolutely nobody said that.

- You are free to leave at any time.

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

You're keeping twisting and mingle these 3 separate things together, it's called muddy up an argument.

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Actually the "default" expectation is that you complete the duty, as you are joining DF to complete the duty. The "default" expectation is that your party will help you with the completion of the duty. .

I don't know what "rule" there is. But entitlement is expecting special treatment, not just from a "rule", just in general. You could argue that asking for the penalty to be waived after certain criteria is met would be special treatment, even though the penalty change would affect everyone. I won't argue with that. I don't agree with changing the penalty. Because while you like to claim that I'm conflating different arguments, you sure like to think I'm arguing in favour of things I'm not.

But when a vote abandon vote comes up and two people (who are trying to help) vote yes and the two people messing up mechanics vote no, that's acting entitled. If they were soo embarassed about causing wipes, they should have let the vote abandon go through. That way there wouldn't be a risk of someone getting mad at them.

You want to tell me not to assume things, yet you don't seem to be calling out anyone making assumptions that these people were embarrassed or trying their best.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Because none of that matter. Someone put it in a fairly simple but effective way: you're duty bound. When you use the Duty Finder, you're promised none of the following:

- You will be teamed with competent player.
- Your teamate had done their homework. (Watched Guide/Video).
- You will clear the instance in less than 6 wipe (or 10 wipes for that matter).

In fact, you can also expect the complete opposite to happen. But there is one thing that is expected of you:

- You will stay until the duty is clear, or when it's expired, or when the group collectively decides to quit.

That's it . You have the choice to opt out at any time you wish at the cost of a small penalty. If any of these term displease you, you can opt to use party finder for a more customizable set of expectation, as well a free opt out clause. When you use DF, you accept the risk above, no matter how small.

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This. If more people understood this is what they're signing up for when they let the game randomly match them with players instead of using the tools they have to customize their experience, then there would be less threads like this. We don't get to choose the people we run it. They're not going to always be perfect. And we get a slap from SE if we bail to remind us not to get too used to doing it.

And as Raven has also said, these instances are few and far between. I think I've had to throw in the towel only two or three times in almost 9 years of playing. Usually there's a vote abandon first. Once I explained to the group that I just couldn't keep trying and asked them to kick me and they did. Most times I will try to help turn the situation around. Sometimes all people need is someone not giving up on them.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I personally suggested a reduction after time spent in duty. Nothing to do with wipes. But I’m telling you, you won’t win these people over.

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I believe they weren't suggesting a reduction of penalty after 60 minutes. They were suggesting reduction of duty timer to 60 or 40 minutes, meaning the duty fails at that point. They even added at the end they believe the penalty should stay as is.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

But when a vote abandon vote comes up and two people (who are trying to help) vote yes and the two people messing up mechanics vote no, that's acting entitled. If they were soo embarassed about causing wipes, they should have let the vote abandon go through. That way there wouldn't be a risk of someone getting mad at them.

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You're trying to inject and draft your own expectation into a general match-making tool. If your own expectation is so important to you, like I said use PF. You can even set it as "Duty Complete" to further reduce the chance of running into clueless player.

The reason it is a vote is because the outcome can go either way. It's not much of a vote if you believe people are obligate to vote the way you want because of your own xyz. The default expectation when joining a group is you're staying, no one join a group with the expectation to leave. You can twist it however way you wish, but that won't change. The players who don't want to leave did not impose their rule on you, them game did. They're not the one trying to change the rule, you are.


In Democracy, you can try to persuade people to vote for you, but you don't get the right to call BS or shaming others who does not vote your way. Otherwise you're no longer competing for a vote, but just trying to impose your own rule. Kinda hard to remember that simple principle these day, I know. :p


And like I said, you keep making it sounds like people are being hold to this at gun point. The choice to leave is always there, it's only a problem is because people don't want to pay the cost associate with that choice. I'm pretty sure all of us have had bad run in. Sometime I stay, sometime I throw the towel. That is not what make the difference between me and the OP. The difference is if I decide to throw, I take the pen as an unlucky section of the day isntead of complaining about how I should be exempted because I already try too hard.

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Originally Posted by Bloodbeat

Please introduce a threshold of wipes to allow leaving a duty without penalty.
I'm not sure why it's fair that I should have to choose between a 6th wipe *at the same mechanic* and having a 30 minute lockout.

No amount of explanation, marking a competent player or hopping in the spot of the safe zone of the mechanic made a difference.

Even making the penalty proportionate to the amount of failures would be a start.

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This sounds like "Angry Mentor became Mentor and started Mentor Roulettes only to get mad that Mentor Roulette can put you into Extremes" drama.

But, yeah, assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You're trying to inject and draft your own expectation into a general match-making tool. If your own expectation is so important to you, like I said use PF. You can even set it as "Duty Complete" to further reduce the chance of running into clueless player.

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You are literally injecting your own expectation of DF. It's to clear content. Help each other clear content. That is it. If I didn't want people to help me complete the duty, I wouldn't queue in the first place. It's not to stay until the timer runs out. It's not to stay for 15 wipes. It's to complete content and help others complete content. It is to get people to do content that they may not normally do.

The penalty was introduced to discourage trolling, since the duty timer would often run out while waiting for someone to fill the spot. Just like the penalty for missing your queue too many times is to discourage trolling. I don't even give a crud if someone isn't a good player. I don't give a crud if they don't know how to do every mechanic. I don't give a crud if they're brand new and die to everything. I know I'm going to get all kinds of players when doing PUG content. I'm not some elitist who expects perfection. Expecting the completion of a duty is not some extreme view that I'm injecting onto others. Every single person queues with the intention to complete the duty they queue for. What a crazy concept!

I don't need to campaign for a vote abandon or a vote dismiss. And I'm not throwing a fit over how it turns up. I was literally responding to you making assumptions about how the other players felt. You really don't seem to understand who you are speaking with. All I have been saying is that while I don't want the penalty to change, I understand the frustration and that someone isn't a bad person for not wanting to put up with it. And that no one signs up to potentially time-out of a duty. They sign up to complete. Yet you think that's "injecting". Like, okay.

I have said countless times that I don't want the penalty gone so kindly stop telling me that I do and that I'm trying to change some rule to give myself (everyone) "special treatment". Move on.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

You are literally injecting your own expectation of DF. It's to clear content. Help each other clear content. That is it. If I didn't want people to help me complete the duty, I wouldn't queue in the first place. It's not to stay until the timer runs out. It's not to stay for 15 wipes. It's to complete content and help others complete content. It is to get people to do content that they may not normally do.

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I'm merely stating how thing are exactly how it has been for ten years. I'm interpreting as how it has always been and why thing is as it is. You're the one who trying to re-interpreting because you want change.

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I have said countless times that I don't want the penalty gone so kindly stop telling me that I do ...

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Then what are you even arguing about? My dude asking for change while saying they're not asking for change.

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... and that I'm trying to change some rule to give myself (everyone) "special treatment".

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Ah yeah, the age old of "I'm not asking this for myself but for everyone else". Dude, I don't know nor care whether you get some physical pleasure or mental satisfaction from it, but you're obviously advocating for something "you" want specifically. This is like trying to change the rule of a game, even if the rule will affect everyone it doesn't change the fact it's now played by the rule you want.

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Move on.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I'm merely stating how thing are exactly how it has been for ten years. I'm interpreting as how it has always been and why thing is as it is.

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Except it hasn’t. I myself have explained there has been change and why there was change. You yourself seem to have been around long enough to know it used to be different. On that note, things can still change.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Except it hasn’t. I myself have explained there has been change and why there was change. You yourself seem to have been around long enough to know it used to be different. On that note, things can still change.

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What changed?

I can remember is it's used to be you can exploit the cut-sceen sequence right when you zone in and dodge the penalty (which was famous for people picking between Castrum and Preato). They maybe other change but all of them are to address exploit where people dodge the lock out.

The spirit of DF has always been you either stay till it's done, or leave as the party's will, or eat the penalty if you decide to drop on your own.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

What changed?

I can remember is it's used to be you can exploit the cut-sceen sequence right when you zone in and dodge the penalty (which was famous for people picking between Castrum and Preato). They maybe other change but all of them are to address exploit where people dodge the lock out.

The spirit of DF has always been you either stay till it's done, or leave as the party's will, or eat the penalty if you decide to drop on your own.

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Well instead of throwing words in people’s mouths and accusing people of saying things they didn’t, why don’t you go back and re read the thread. Or idk, keep bullying max carnage. You do you buddy