Balancing issues in PVP

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

While I do agree that you should not be CC chained by the same exact cc chaining should still exist regardless.

As far as having no diminishing returns is concerned majority has indirectly asked for this. People have asked for killing to be easier (while dealing with the healers), and the devs determined the diminishing returns had to go in order to satisfy people's need to kill. There's not much that can be done at this point. If you want me to be honest, I don't see any changes being made with that anytime soon, especially since there's a couple of threads floating about calling for the removal of Recuperate.

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In the old system sure, but there's technically no more healers so it was a weird decision to move away from DR lol. I don't mind it personally, but I wouldn't be against it coming back either.

DR is still there with cleanse purify. Old DR was stupid and hard to track. I'd rather them to work with what we have right now, which is playing around the cleanse purify DR.

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Originally Posted by Valence

DR is still there with cleanse purify. Old DR was stupid and hard to track. I'd rather them to work with what we have right now, which is playing around the cleanse purify DR.

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Purify isn't a DR... it's a straight resist buff.

Okay, what is DR for you? I'm obviously thinking about something else...

DR would be multiple applications having less effect passively, so diminishing returns.
Currently it's a binary. Full duration, or nothing (except if purified etc).

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Originally Posted by Valence

Okay, what is DR for you? I'm obviously thinking about something else...

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DR is diminishing returns where effects are weaker in repeated uses. Use sleep repeatedly on a mob in pve and you will see the sleep timer get shorter till the point where the mob resists it. PvP used ro have this feature, but they opted not to use it in the new pvp.

Just turn off damage reduction. It'll be more fun, trust me.

No, that would be stupid.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

DR is diminishing returns where effects are weaker in repeated uses. Use sleep repeatedly on a mob in pve and you will see the sleep timer get shorter till the point where the mob resists it. PvP used ro have this feature, but they opted not to use it in the new pvp.

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I know how it works in pve, and no, pvp never had that feature. What PvP had was a binary immunity of 10s after you suffered a specific cc, for example stun: you were stun immune for 10s, but not heavy immune for 10s. It's exactly what cleansed purify does right now, but it was only for one specific type of cc, and twice longer. And a nightmare to keep track of.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I know how it works in pve, and no, pvp never had that feature. What PvP had was a binary immunity of 10s after you suffered a specific cc, for example stun: you were stun immune for 10s, but not heavy immune for 10s. It's exactly what cleansed purify does right now, but it was only for one specific type of cc, and twice longer. And a nightmare to keep track of.

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You sound a bit too sure of yourself mate.

Diminishing Returns was a feature prior to 4.0 PvP as it used the PvE skills as a basis of combat, along with most other mechanics. The difference is that certain skills had their effects adjusted for PvP (like Shieldbash had 4s stun duration rather than 6s), something they added over time during early PvP as BLM's AOE sleep for 30s... was kind of excessive.

4.0-6.05 there was CC resist like you said for 10s (or 15s with 4.0-5.05 PvP, when selectable traits were a thing). So the most CC you'd take was a Stun -> Silence + Bind for a total of 4-5s, depending on when you played. I don't think it was a nightmare to keep track off though unless you pressed all your buttons as soon as you see a target on your screen to attack.

Short: Yes PvP had that feature from 2.1(where PvP released I think?) to 3.58.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Just turn off damage reduction. It'll be more fun, trust me.

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6.1 only melees had dr, the old ones from last expansion. It was too easy to kill then, especially if you had max battle high. Melees weren't safe from range classes, and I believe DNC was just about unplayable. Recuperate and Guard was useless if you actually got caught by at least 3 people.

Unless you're trying to personally turn the frontlines maps back to Summoner's Rift or get rid of melees and tanks entirely (excluding DRK, PLD, and NIN) you don't want to go back to having no sort of damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

How do you come even remotely close to a conclusion like that? Veterans are veterans because they know how to play, know how to utilize CC's and know how and when to break them and how to avoid them. Saying they keep veterans in check is a weird thought process to have.

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I reach my conclusion based on personal experience on Primal
I am mostly solo on the frontline since Frontline exist (still able to do it post 6.1) and I can tell who is paying attention to DR and who is not prioir to 6.1
I judge my opponent based on their reaction and actual performance instead of the fake numbers on the scoreboard.
My definition of veterans are those skilled is CD management, burst, and situation awareness (buff, debuff, and DR,etc)
They don't need to be high on the scorebord, but these people are cores of a successful random frontline team.
These people are in trouble at 6.1 because now players is able to spend CC without worry about DR.
I do still beleived 6.1 did reduce the skill gap between veterans and normal players due to non-exist of DR.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Just turn off damage reduction. It'll be more fun, trust me.

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While nobody plays, Rival Wings is the closest you'll get for decent chunk of players deleting each other with a sneeze

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You sound a bit too sure of yourself mate.

Diminishing Returns was a feature prior to 4.0 PvP as it used the PvE skills as a basis of combat, along with most other mechanics. The difference is that certain skills had their effects adjusted for PvP (like Shieldbash had 4s stun duration rather than 6s), something they added over time during early PvP as BLM's AOE sleep for 30s... was kind of excessive.

4.0-6.05 there was CC resist like you said for 10s (or 15s with 4.0-5.05 PvP, when selectable traits were a thing). So the most CC you'd take was a Stun -> Silence + Bind for a total of 4-5s, depending on when you played. I don't think it was a nightmare to keep track off though unless you pressed all your buttons as soon as you see a target on your screen to attack.

Short: Yes PvP had that feature from 2.1(where PvP released I think?) to 3.58.

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My mistake then, I assumed people were referring to the various damage immunities added to pvp (after a totally DRless pvp) at some point during Stormblood, that we still had in Shadowbringers. Didn't think people were going that far back to HW. I'll definitely admit that I haven't pvped much in HW and this flew way over my head.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I reach my conclusion based on personal experience on Primal
I am mostly solo on the frontline since Frontline exist (still able to do it post 6.1) and I can tell who is paying attention to DR and who is not prioir to 6.1
I judge my opponent based on their reaction and actual performance instead of the fake numbers on the scoreboard.
My definition of veterans are those skilled is CD management, burst, and situation awareness (buff, debuff, and DR,etc)
They don't need to be high on the scorebord, but these people are cores of a successful random frontline team.
These people are in trouble at 6.1 because now players is able to spend CC without worry about DR.
I do still beleived 6.1 did reduce the skill gap between veterans and normal players due to non-exist of DR.

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That is just blatantly false lol.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mused over this in other threads, and I'd like them to rework those for sure, but at the same time they're here for a good reason and have an actual strategic use, which is shutting down some opponents during their LBs if used properly. The problem being that a lot of LBs are instant and don't last over time, but for those that do, it's the way to go. Now, I do think that some of those LBs like meteodrive, zantetsuken or seiton are plain stupid, agreed.

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I think you could make it better with having these LBs be casted. Especially since it would actually allow counter play in some scenarios. Especially since I think with the way some LBs look, it would fit perfectly to have a cast time. Good example is MCH's, when you hit Marksmen's Spite your enemy gets a crosshair on there character as a notification of "your about to get domed" which by the time you see it, it snapshots and your basically owned. If it was casted you could have the crosshair be an indicator of about to be owned and you could counter play it in some way. I don't think it would work with every LB, but a large majority of them would work with it.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

While nobody plays, Rival Wings is the closest you'll get for decent chunk of players deleting each other with a sneeze

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I think this highlights of the issue that the jobs not having any baseline survivability built into the kits is horrible. Having all of that basically frontloaded into the skills such as Guard/Recup/Purify and barely having anything else to live causes ppl to be incredibly squishy, especially in large scale modes where you have a couple people can sneeze in your general direction and you'll be evaporated. This causes Frontlines to get DR on half the jobs making them incredibly tanky, and now we got the other issue of everyone being incredibly tanky and it eliminates the ability to try and kill someone by yourself. More baseline survivability for every job would make things so much better and less cringe to deal with, and I think having that designed in wouldn't hurt any of the 3 main modes pvp modes at all.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I think you could make it better with having these LBs be casted. Especially since it would actually allow counter play in some scenarios. Especially since I think with the way some LBs look, it would fit perfectly to have a cast time. Good example is MCH's, when you hit Marksmen's Spite your enemy gets a crosshair on there character as a notification of "your about to get domed" which by the time you see it, it snapshots and your basically owned. If it was casted you could have the crosshair be an indicator of about to be owned and you could counter play it in some way. I don't think it would work with every LB, but a large majority of them would work with it.

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Spite is fine and is really the least of the worrying ones. I don't like Seiton for how low effort and snowballing it is on top of its range, I don't like zantetsuken because a lot of jobs have very poor or no defense against it (and some also need to AoE to work), and I don't like meteodrive because of its range and it's also borderline broken vs ranged players (or even melees). I don't hate them for being single target in essence.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I think you could make it better with having these LBs be casted.

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No thanks. Old LB's were casted and they did not feel good to use.

These LB are definitely better than the previous role ones were. Some of them are still bad though and the fact that some are instant, and some require years of uninterrupted gameplay to get value from is pretty much garbage.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

These LB are definitely better than the previous role ones were. Some of them are still bad though and the fact that some are instant, and some require years of uninterrupted gameplay to get value from is pretty much garbage.

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I can still recall the first time I was animation locked by my AST LB. Now that was an interesting way to make some (unwanted) friends.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It does kind of suck that GNB's gimmick is gated by having specific roles on the enemy team.

I feel like you should at least be able to target allies with Draw and Junction as well to increase the odds of having access to the effect you desire.

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Gunbreaker is sadly horribly designed, its cool from a fluff perspective but its garbo in actual game. Having your mit locked behind a junction as well as your dps being neutered when you are not in a certain junction feels terrible. Best thing they can do is make Nebula baseline at a slightly reduced effectiveness and instead give Heart of Corundum as the tank junction ability.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Gunbreaker is sadly horribly designed, its cool from a fluff perspective but its garbo in actual game. Having your mit locked behind a junction as well as your dps being neutered when you are not in a certain junction feels terrible. Best thing they can do is make Nebula baseline at a slightly reduced effectiveness and instead give Heart of Corundum as the tank junction ability.

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Junction just needs to be basically stances on a CD and it immediately fixes GNB problems.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The game is balanced around team play... 1v1 duels are just for fun. Balancing around something so pointless would be an impossible task. Case in point, outside of the LB reapers are pretty whatever in CC, but they are basically the best 1v1 job in the game.

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sounds like a skill issue.

You're welcome to come duel men if you want to find out. I get the feeling you won't though lmao.

I don't disagree that GNB could benefit from easier stance changes and whatnot, but people are selling it very short for the simple reason that they see the glass half empty: they see that a stance doesn't let them access to something, and another stance removes them another thing, and suddenly they feel that it makes the job underwhelming. Can't exactly have your cake and eat it.

Get rid of the healing junction and make gnb work like Tyr from Smite, toggleable stance with a little cooldown that changes what you skill does like how in tank stance Tyr just dashes through people, but in damage stance anyone he dashes into gets pulled along for the ride.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You're welcome to come duel men if you want to find out. I get the feeling you won't though lmao.

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Interesting, considered how he went full assault on dismiss any comment different than his, he went silent on this

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Interesting, considered how he went full assault on dismiss any comment different than his, he went silent on this

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I've challenged them before and they basically said I "wasn't worth their time." lol