Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

We’re all pressing buttons. What’s the difference?



https://media.discordapp.net/attachm.../IMG_6059.webp

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Lol, this is a pretty funny portrayal though I feel the population should skew more towards the left rather than a normal distribution as I feel most players are casual and do not really give their panties twisted over the amount of DPS they do.

If the content is cleared what is the problem? We all have good and bad days. Good and bad runs for a variety of reasons.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

From my experience on then current savage content, mechanics count more in the long run than tight dps checks. You cant clear a dps check without the party doing the dance first and foremost with little to no error. Its a heck a lot harder for groups to fully understand their part in that dance and memorizing mechanics without dying. Once thats figured out, the dps checks usually always clearable.

This is of course saying as the majority rather than the absolute.

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While mechanics ARE king, that’s not the full story. Lower dps requires higher performance to beat enrage and the simple fact is, if you can’t do your rotation then you’re not good enough to do mechanics. Besides if someone’s dps is bad enough it can make it harder for everyone else. When you NEED a dps LB3 to beat enrage then you can’t tank LB Cachexia 2 or healer LB3 a bad mess up.

Mechanics you can ignore or mess up become wipes with bad dps.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

We’re all pressing buttons. What’s the difference?



https://media.discordapp.net/attachm.../IMG_6059.webp

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If that’s a serious question the difference between parses is “mostly” because FFlogs doesn’t separate by gear level like WoW does. This means your fresh 610 summoner is compared to that 630+ BIS summoner whose dragoon astro and dancer friends are all loading him with buffs right when his Bahamut cycle starts and whose raid kills the boss significantly faster so a higher proportion of the fight is under the effect of those buffs/potions.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

most raids in XIV dont have DPS checks or phase skips that are difficult to clear.

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Somebody has never done week 1 savage before XD

People can be as mechanically good as they want, but lack the DPS required to clear a savage tier on release because they don't know how to maximize their job's DPS output.

Wiping to Enrage with 0 deaths because somebody missed a few GCDS throughout a fight, or the healer deciding that DPS is for the DPS jobs.

The worst thing is, you tell them they need to improve and immediately you are the toxic one, regardless of how correct you are.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

While mechanics ARE king, that’s not the full story. Lower dps requires higher performance to beat enrage and the simple fact is, if you can’t do your rotation then you’re not good enough to do mechanics. Besides if someone’s dps is bad enough it can make it harder for everyone else. When you NEED a dps LB3 to beat enrage then you can’t tank LB Cachexia 2 or healer LB3 a bad mess up.

Mechanics you can ignore or mess up become wipes with bad dps.

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Hey, did you actually read that last sentence I made in that post or...

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

No thanks.

Damage/heal meters are toxic.

Quit Overwatch 2 when they added the stats page.

Stats don't ever tell the full story, and it encourages bad play.

They are fine in games where K/D matters.

But damage/heal meters encourage poeple to top the charts rather than actually play properly.

For example, I have seen plenty of healers 'top' the charts in games I play, but they are playing absolutely woefully. Their heals are mostly them opting not to remove themselvs from crap. Same with DPS. High DPS is great, but not if you are putting yourself in the way of death.

Then you have people bitching if you don't do a job (as per the stats), etc.

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How does any of this make dps meters "toxic" in any way?

Just because a few peeps misuse a tool doesn't make the tool itself bad or in any way responsible for that misuse. If someone drives a car through a group of people that's awful and (assuming they did it intentionally) they're a terrible person... but that still isn't a reason to ban cars.

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Originally Posted by moroarda

How does any of this make dps meters "toxic" in any way?

Just because a few peeps misuse a tool doesn't make the tool itself bad or in any way responsible for that misuse. If someone drives a car through a group of people that's awful and (assuming they did it intentionally) they're a terrible person... but that still isn't a reason to ban cars.

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[Insert gun control discussion here]

:P

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Originally Posted by moroarda

How does any of this make dps meters "toxic" in any way?

Just because a few peeps misuse a tool doesn't make the tool itself bad or in any way responsible for that misuse. If someone drives a car through a group of people that's awful and (assuming they did it intentionally) they're a terrible person... but that still isn't a reason to ban cars.

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Unlike driving cars through crowds of people, players will be quick to normalize judging and flaming using dps meters.
Having these metrics available will give more people something to point at and exclaim "this person is shit, let's kick them".
More people will be made aware of the disctepancy between jobs and it's going to foster a community where exclusion and minmaxing takes presedence over everything else even among casuals. If you glance over at a certain other MMO, people are getting kicked from leveling dungeons for playing the wrong spec because icyveins and their own sweaty dps meters say they suck.

I'd say this is down to a design problem though, anyone who wants to do a week 1 clear probably feels forced to use them because god forbid you use abilities in a slightly suboptimal order twice in a fight and cause a dps check fail.
And people want to emulate the top raidrs so it trickles down.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

[Insert gun control discussion here]

:P

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I doubt getting political is helping anything, but dps meters are also more regularly helpful than most guns - the day to day benefit of owning a gun other than a hunting rifle is often touted as just... having a gun incase someone else also has a gun or tries to commit some act of violence.

Having dps meters doesn't require someone to be a psychopath in order to see the benefit, everyone would also have them available as a learning tool to improve. There's no such immediate, universal benefit to having a gun which is why I've always found that comparison kind of silly and went with the car one instead. Cars similarly provide a helpful service constantly, so even if they're technically capable of being used in a bad way they're mostly doing a good thing and those bad uses are the outliers.

This is the same with dps meters in XIV, because I guarantee you many people you see playing are already using them and see people underperforming all the time, they're just not mean people so they aren't pointing out those inefficiencies.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Unlike driving cars through crowds of people, players will be quick to normalize judging and flaming using dps meters.
Having these metrics available will give more people something to point at and exclaim "this person is shit, let's kick them".
More people will be made aware of the disctepancy between jobs and it's going to foster a community where exclusion and minmaxing takes presedence over everything else even among casuals. If you glance over at a certain other MMO, people are getting kicked from leveling dungeons for playing the wrong spec because icyveins and their own sweaty dps meters say they suck.

I'd say this is down to a design problem though, anyone who wants to do a week 1 clear probably feels forced to use them because god forbid you use abilities in a slightly suboptimal order twice in a fight and cause a dps check fail.
And people want to emulate the top raidrs so it trickles down.

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How does including dps meters somehow roll back protections against harassment in the minds of some of you people?

Even including a dps meter in the base game as a hud element wouldn't suddenly make it okay to be rude to other players based on their performance and I can't for the life of me understand how you link these two things in your mind.

There are already existing protections against harassment in the game, and including dps meters would not alter those protections in any way.

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Originally Posted by moroarda

How does including dps meters somehow roll back protections against harassment in the minds of some of you people?[/u]

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Convince the director he knows what they mean and is opposed to officially including them. This parser discussion has been a staple of this forum for years and it's not going anywhere because he has categorially stated he does not want them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Convince the director he knows what they mean and is opposed to officially including them. This parser discussion has been a staple of this forum for years and it's not going anywhere because he has categorially stated he does not want them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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I understand his stance, but he isn't some infallible god - in this case, he's wrong, plain and simple.

I understand that we won't see official parser support because of Yoshida's opinions, but it doesn't mean I won't still argue in favor of it because it makes logical sense.

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Originally Posted by moroarda

I understand his stance, but he isn't some infallible god - in this case, he's wrong, plain and simple.

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Oh he is not wrong and I totally agree with his stance and you are certainly entitled to your opinion but be that as it may YOU won't be getting them.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Convince the director he knows what they mean and is opposed to officially including them. This parser discussion has been a staple of this forum for years and it's not going anywhere because he has categorially stated he does not want them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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He says he doesn't want them because (paraphrasing)

1) "people might be mean".

Response: In high end content, PF style, no one is owed a group. If you don't pull your weight the party leader should have the ability to see who is being lackluster, see if they can improve, and if not kick them (This already happens because most serious raiders ALREADY use a 3rd party DPS meter). I'm talking people who are missing 10-20+ GCDs over a fight.

2) Using the excuse of "It might add more anxiety / responsibility to players"

Response: Healers have been designed with that mindset and they're a dumpster fire right now and have been for ~6 years. It's a bad design philosophy. You shouldn't design for the floor of the playerbase, the worst of the worst. You should attempt to encourage them to get better, not stay terrible.

Even if you don't use exact numbers a simple grading scale could be used. S through F. Something possibly like Final Fantasy XIII

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...lts_FFXIII.png

Flawless run? S

Mechanics + good GCD management? A

Execute mechanics properly and do a decent rotation? B

Bare minimum to complete the content? About to wipe due to enrage? Probably get a C.

Get hit by multiple mechanics resulting in 4 deaths in a run? You get an F for that run.

Make a Terms of Service that explicitly says you will be punished for harassment

Don't implement something because "people might be mean guiz :(" despite the rules

????

I'm not for or against damage meters being added, fairly indifferent because if they're in, I'll use them, otherwise whatever, but the whole thing about people might use them to be mean makes no sense to me. Adding them in doesn't suddenly change the ToS that we all agreed to. People that are gonna be toxic over them are probably going to be toxic regardless, and they're an EASY report.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Make a Terms of Service that explicitly says you will be punished for harassment

Don't implement something because "people might be mean guiz :(" despite the rules

????

I'm not for or against damage meters being added, fairly indifferent because if they're in, I'll use them, otherwise whatever, but the whole thing about people might use them to be mean makes no sense to me. Adding them in doesn't suddenly change the ToS that we all agreed to. People that are gonna be toxic over them are probably going to be toxic regardless, and they're an EASY report.

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Piling on people because of bad performance is already considered harassment. Those rules already exist.

Even in the MMO that shall not be spoken, unless you are woefully under performing for your role, class, and spec outside of cutting edge content it is rare to see someone kicked for how they play. I get negative experiences stay with people longer and often more reported but in the grandscheme in a pure numbers sense I am sure most encounters with parsing are neutral or positive.

People are right though we will never get then officially added because people may be mean ans they cannot risk exposing the player base to the anything that conflicts with their own perception of how they are playing.

Let us say someone is toxic about another player it is rarely the case that they get called out for no reason. Sure it at times may come off S harsh but it probably is true if someone took the time to bash ya.

Ngl, having witnessed a few that went ballistic at the mention of enmity order list, I'm quite curious what an actual numerical indicator will do to those individuals. Maybe they will one day take away enmity order list, too!

SE is exercising in a bit of hypocrisy. On one hand, they develop these raid bosses where there is an enrage timer and by pure definition, the party has to output X damage in Y seconds in order to clear it. Yet, they forbid measuring said DPS.

I always saw SE's argument of being forbidden to parse as being similar to the concept of not being allowed to use a radar detector. These signals are out there and anyone is welcome to receive them and do what they want with them. If they don't want us to parse, then don't send us the actual damage numbers in the log. Just track the boss HP on the server and display crude percentages.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

SE is exercising in a bit of hypocrisy.

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Are you that shocked?
Remember, smoking bad but /toast and drinking good!

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

While mechanics ARE king, that’s not the full story. Lower dps requires higher performance to beat enrage and the simple fact is, if you can’t do your rotation then you’re not good enough to do mechanics. Besides if someone’s dps is bad enough it can make it harder for everyone else. When you NEED a dps LB3 to beat enrage then you can’t tank LB Cachexia 2 or healer LB3 a bad mess up.

Mechanics you can ignore or mess up become wipes with bad dps.

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While I get what you're saying and its kinda true... every screwed a run I've had has been because of people (myself included) taking mechanics to the face, not because the DPS couldnt DPS enough.

There are very few enrages that require the high levels of optimisation parsing is intended for.

The question high end groups need answering is how well players pick up and learn mechanics. Once a group has mechanics down and arent making too many mistakes with those you're probably clearing.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Somebody has never done week 1 savage before XD

People can be as mechanically good as they want, but lack the DPS required to clear a savage tier on release because they don't know how to maximize their job's DPS output.

Wiping to Enrage with 0 deaths because somebody missed a few GCDS throughout a fight, or the healer deciding that DPS is for the DPS jobs.

The worst thing is, you tell them they need to improve and immediately you are the toxic one, regardless of how correct you are.

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No, but serious world first and week 1 teams make up so little of the playerbase that it doesnt matter. If credible world first teams want to share parses privately to put together what is essentially a top level e-sports team then thats something they can already do without introducing toxicity to the rest of the game.

I dont actually have an issue with parsing in that environment. If you told me that you were going for a week 1 clear and wanted to scruitinise my parse then I'd totally get that. Heck, I'd expect it because I'd be trying to join a competitive team.

The problem is that if parsers were introduced to XIV or open parsing allowed, then parse checks would end up infecting the entire game. You'd have people parsing the ARR Ex's, and the harder old Ex's like Sephirot and Thordan, or some of Eden S tier would be a lock out without parse checks.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

The problem is that if parsers were introduced to XIV or open parsing allowed, then parse checks would end up infecting the entire game. You'd have people parsing the ARR Ex's, and the harder old Ex's like Sephirot and Thordan, or some of Eden S tier would be a lock out without parse checks.

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Afaik parse checks are already infecting large swathes of the game. Even self-proclaimed "super casual" statics are using 3rd party software, and talking to its members about improving their parses. The first and only time I tried my hand at EXes I joined a self-proclaimed "chill and informal friend group static that plays just for fun" and after we did the trials, the static leader began throwing links to parses at me and talking about how my oGCD usage could be improved.
They didn't mean anything bad by it, and just tried to help, but how straight up matter-of-factly they went about the whole business just reaffirmed the fact that pretty much everyone and their mums who do this content are parsing, and are making a big deal out of said parsing.

Introducing it as a built-in in-game feature will achieve exactly one thing imo: people who would otherwise not know anything about this stuff will have an excuse to start excluding and hating on people because they play a job that isn't parsing well.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Afaik parse checks are already infecting large swathes of the game. Even self-proclaimed "super casual" statics are using 3rd party software, and talking to its members about improving their parses. The first and only time I tried my hand at EXes I joined a self-proclaimed "chill and informal friend group static that plays just for fun" and after we did the trials, the static leader began throwing links to parses at me and talking about how my oGCD usage could be improved.
They didn't mean anything bad by it, and just tried to help, but how straight up matter-of-factly they went about the whole business just reaffirmed the fact that pretty much everyone and their mums who do this content are parsing, and are making a big deal out of said parsing.

Introducing it as a built-in in-game feature will achieve exactly one thing imo: people who would otherwise not know anything about this stuff will have an excuse to start excluding and hating on people because they play a job that isn't parsing well.

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Geeze, stories like this is why i'm happier spending my limited game time in Eureka over chasing the dragon that is savage tier. lol
I do miss the old HW prog days but seeing what raiding has become really makes me feel like I dodged a bullet when I became a super casual when I returned.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Afaik parse checks are already infecting large swathes of the game. Even self-proclaimed "super casual" statics are using 3rd party software, and talking to its members about improving their parses. The first and only time I tried my hand at EXes I joined a self-proclaimed "chill and informal friend group static that plays just for fun" and after we did the trials, the static leader began throwing links to parses at me and talking about how my oGCD usage could be improved.
They didn't mean anything bad by it, and just tried to help, but how straight up matter-of-factly they went about the whole business just reaffirmed the fact that pretty much everyone and their mums who do this content are parsing, and are making a big deal out of said parsing.

Introducing it as a built-in in-game feature will achieve exactly one thing imo: people who would otherwise not know anything about this stuff will have an excuse to start excluding and hating on people because they play a job that isn't parsing well.

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You mean excluding people that play poorly. Get it right

I see so many people here always pin the blame on others rather than thinking about criticizing themselves. Its too easy to say "well I know Im not a bad player, we mustve wiped because somebody else did".

Adding meters is just gonna be yet another avenue to bully other players. Heck weve already seen this happen with certain PF barring good machinist players.....on P5S!! They really are that obsessed about damage numbers

This topic always goes the same way.

"Dps meters will create toxicity!"
"But toxic behavior is against ToS?"
"People will bully others!"
"But they can't, it's against ToS..."
"Statics will exclude everyone!"
"But everyone who raids uses fflogs anyway, lots of causal statics exist and it's been fine?"
"Toxicity!"
"But...?"
"Toxicity!!!!"

There's no argument here and logic has been presented a million times. The simple fact is underperforming players don't want their performance to be visible. Even if no one bullies them, they hate that others are doing better or being presented with proof they're holding a group back by not trying or caring. So they want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend numbers don't exist. And that's the environment SE wants to foster, because in their eyes those players are potential customers and they can just push the better players to carry them.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Afaik parse checks are already infecting large swathes of the game. Even self-proclaimed "super casual" statics are using 3rd party software, and talking to its members about improving their parses. The first and only time I tried my hand at EXes I joined a self-proclaimed "chill and informal friend group static that plays just for fun" and after we did the trials, the static leader began throwing links to parses at me and talking about how my oGCD usage could be improved.
They didn't mean anything bad by it, and just tried to help, but how straight up matter-of-factly they went about the whole business just reaffirmed the fact that pretty much everyone and their mums who do this content are parsing, and are making a big deal out of said parsing.

Introducing it as a built-in in-game feature will achieve exactly one thing imo: people who would otherwise not know anything about this stuff will have an excuse to start excluding and hating on people because they play a job that isn't parsing well.

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They can but I think it can depend on regions/DC's. I've had good and bad experiences with that in European DC's.

One time a more experienced player asked the group if they wanted some informed tips, wink wink, nudge nudge. It was a good group, they asked first, and gave out good advice without singling anyone out. That was fine and I got some helpful and informative advice on maintaining BLM uptime through mechanics.

Another time it was utterly inappropriate and toxic. Someone in my FC wanted a mount so we put together a few people from the FC and put a PF up. It was an unsynced casual mount run.

After a few runs one guy started going on performance and how some of us were holding him back. He was a lv90 in endgame raid gear lambasting people more than 10 levels below him in MSQ gear. Even after it was pointed out he didnt get it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I forget comms even exist most of the time, honestly.

If any of you get me in a party, don't comm me. I already have the mount, I don't need the ego-stroking.

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Well now I gotta World Visit you, join your party, finish whatever we do, and give you a comm out of spite.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The simple fact is underperforming players don't want their performance to be visible. Even if no one bullies them, they hate that others are doing better or being presented with proof they're holding a group back by not trying or caring. So they want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend numbers don't exist.

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You're phrasing this as if this comical strawman is the only kind of player who's against this kind of stuff, which is simply not the case. Other examples include players who do try and do care but get shot down because they're not already playing nigh-perfectly, and players who don't even have any interest in the higher end stuff being thrown shade on within casual content. I found it to be an entirely unwelcome thing to be pulled aside and having every minutia of my performance scrutinized over being 2 sec late to press Fleche on my first ever EX (which was also outdated content that we overgeared at the time) for sure.

These attitudes exist elsewhere where such things are part of the game (including people using ToS-breaking software WITHIN FFXIV itself) and isn't going to magically just not happen because FFXIV is some magical group-hug game where everyone is suddenly a kindhearted teletubby.
People may be prevented from outright flaming and bullying people thanks to Squeenix actually monitoring such things, but you can be dang sure there will be passive-aggressive snark all over the place because "someone is trolling by playing MCH", a plethora of parties urging certain jobs to simply not apply, and people who will make use of the first possible opportunity to avoid playing with people who were unfortunate enough not to play the top-parsing jobs in the game.
These people don't exist, you say? Of course they do, just as surely as the "TOXICITY" example you typed up there.

I'm not going to refute that there certainly is a crowd of people who go "REEE CARRY ME" but please don't grab the broadest brush you can find and use it to paint over everyone who expresses concerns over this.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

IMO, any fight that has an enrage should have a damage meter enabled in that fight.

Enrages occur when you don't deal enough damage in X amount of time. Damage is therefore important in those scenarios and should be viewable.

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This is honestly where Yoshi's design philosophy contradicts itself. The devs have created the need for a tool that they're not allowing.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

IMO, any fight that has an enrage should have a damage meter enabled in that fight.

Enrages occur when you don't deal enough damage in X amount of time. Damage is therefore important in those scenarios and should be viewable.

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In my experience, most groups don't even reach enrage. They just fail the mechanics, and are forced to reset more often than not until the timer of the duty runs out. DPS meters aren't going to do anything to help those groups.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This topic always goes the same way.

"Dps meters will create toxicity!"
"But toxic behavior is against ToS?"
"People will bully others!"
"But they can't, it's against ToS..."
"Statics will exclude everyone!"
"But everyone who raids uses fflogs anyway, lots of causal statics exist and it's been fine?"
"Toxicity!"
"But...?"
"Toxicity!!!!"

There's no argument here and logic has been presented a million times. The simple fact is underperforming players don't want their performance to be visible. Even if no one bullies them, they hate that others are doing better or being presented with proof they're holding a group back by not trying or caring. So they want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend numbers don't exist. And that's the environment SE wants to foster, because in their eyes those players are potential customers and they can just push the better players to carry them.

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No, many of us who are against parsers in game or open parsing arent hard against parsing all the time and have probably added up our battle logs ourselves from time to time to see how we perform or which DPS we might want to use in certain content.

What we dont want is for a situation where gamer(tm) types are giving sprouts and people who are cutting their teeth at harder content shit over their parses in ARR/HW/SB/ShB content. Or rolling into casual fun runs and lambasting people. Which is exactly what would happen.

If you regularly runs blinds it can be a nighrmare not to have some idiot roll into the group gabbling on about the guide and wondering why people havent got a walkthrough open on another screen, or enter a blind prog and are surprised to learn that you actually have to set aside an hour or two to actually prog the damned thing.

Imagine giving those people an in-game parser? It would be a right pain in the arse.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

There's no argument here and logic has been presented a million times. The simple fact is underperforming players don't want their performance to be visible. Even if no one bullies them, they hate that others are doing better or being presented with proof they're holding a group back by not trying or caring. So they want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend numbers don't exist. And that's the environment SE wants to foster, because in their eyes those players are potential customers and they can just push the better players to carry them.

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The issue is a little more nuanced than that.
I will start by saying I think that parsers are an invaluable tool in the right hands. With that said:

What percentage of the player-base do you think can be trusted to understand and responsibly interpret the data a parser gives then?

Do you think that access to metrics that inherently appear hierarchical, which the majority of players are not equipped to contextualize, will lead to good decision making and healthy interactions?

Do you feel that inexperienced/inconsistent players feeling intense pressure to deal high damage, (in excess of the fight requirement), will make them play better and secure clears quickly and consistently?

Do you think that it's healthy that Damage Parses have become elevated as the most important indicator of player skill among much of the existing community that uses FFLogs?


And out of selfish curiosity; Of those you listed above, which one do you think my motivation for not liking the increasingly widespread use of parsers is?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Piling on people because of bad performance is already considered harassment. Those rules already exist.

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Yes. That is what I said.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Are you that shocked?
Remember, smoking bad but /toast and drinking good!

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Remember, it's the same company that says they have integrity in their character models/game art and don't want to cause clipping issues, and then still cause clipping issues literally everywhere, but when it comes to things like ears of multiple races "oh lordy lordy we can't have them clip through the hats!"

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

No, many of us who are against parsers in game or open parsing arent hard against parsing all the time and have probably added up our battle logs ourselves from time to time to see how we perform or which DPS we might want to use in certain content.

What we dont want is for a situation where gamer(tm) types are giving sprouts and people who are cutting their teeth at harder content shit over their parses in ARR/HW/SB/ShB content. Or rolling into casual fun runs and lambasting people. Which is exactly what would happen.

If you regularly runs blinds it can be a nighrmare not to have some idiot roll into the group gabbling on about the guide and wondering why people havent got a walkthrough open on another screen, or enter a blind prog and are surprised to learn that you actually have to set aside an hour or two to actually prog the damned thing.

Imagine giving those people an in-game parser? It would be a right pain in the arse.

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Umm... you're not forced to play with those people when they rear their ugly little heads. If someone actually came into your group and did that, despite the TOS, then 1. that's a VERY easy kick and 2. a VERY easy report. You literally have the tools to solve issues like that yourself, make use of them. It boggles my mind how anti-kick and anti-report people in this game are.

I know the OP was just joking, but official damage meters unironically would improve the game. It's no secret that the majority of the playerbase is pretty awful. Give 'em something to compare numbers with and maybe we'll see some improvement. There's already countless rules preventing you from getting harassed which was the whole reason SE didn't want you to use it in the first place. Even makes things better for the console players who are just stuck with trying to stare at animations to find out who's single targeting during pulls of 6+

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Originally Posted by Restonance

I know the OP was just joking, but official damage meters unironically would improve the game. It's no secret that the majority of the playerbase is pretty awful. Give 'em something to compare numbers with and maybe we'll see some improvement. There's already countless rules preventing you from getting harassed which was the whole reason SE didn't want you to use it in the first place. Even makes things better for the console players who are just stuck with trying to stare at animations to find out who's single targeting during pulls of 6+

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You know even with ToS, that still didnt stop people in PF barring players due to their numbers or performance anyway. At least from the posts Ive seen on twitter, so just making it official will just validate a lot of the scummy behavior of caring more about top tier damage numbers than just clearing a fight. Itll effectively kill the raid scene even more

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You know even with ToS, that still didnt stop people in PF barring players due to their numbers or performance anyway. At least from the posts Ive seen on twitter, so just making it official will just validate a lot of the scummy behavior of caring more about top tier damage numbers than just clearing a fight. Itll effectively kill the raid scene even more

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The barred players often have logs that are astronomical terrible and often their clears came because the group carried them. Clearing the fight itself is not a great metric to go by. We had an FC mate that was dead for roughly 28% of a fight we cleared it but one day he came crying in discord cause we uploaded the fight he had issues getting into PF groups.

It is not scummy behavior to not want to carry someone that has a history of getting carried.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You know even with ToS, that still didnt stop people in PF barring players due to their numbers or performance anyway. At least from the posts Ive seen on twitter, so just making it official will just validate a lot of the scummy behavior of caring more about top tier damage numbers than just clearing a fight. Itll effectively kill the raid scene even more

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I would agree it's obnoxious when it's practiced in DF groups, but PF? Why? People shouldn't force themselves to join that PF if they couldn't live up to that expectation. How is it 'scummy' to wanting to choose who to play with in PF? Folks barring one another in PF already happens to some extent: iLv.

Id like that just to better myself, not for commendations