I miss old AST cards

stupidity is not a reason to limit class design. The idea is you reward the one playing the job for getting better at it. In this instance learning your cards.

You don't limit blm from fire phase because some idiots cant read a timer for example

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

stupidity is not a reason to limit class design. The idea is you reward the one playing the job for getting better at it. In this instance learning your cards.

You don't limit blm from fire phase because some idiots cant read a timer for example

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Kind of a poor example. You are definitely free to be bad at your own job. What I don't want to deal with is someone being bad at their job making mine play worse.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Kind of a poor example. You are definitely free to be bad at your own job. What I don't want to deal with is someone being bad at their job making mine play worse.

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Probably best to stick to Trusts then, since a bad tank can fail to mitigate and die, meaning you're next on the chopping block for the boss's next TB. A bad healer can fail to keep up on damage and let you die to Natural Alignment's DOT ticks. A bad [any class] can misread basically any mechanic in the game and get you killed by doing it wrong. And I'm not 100% sure I'd throw 'used card on suboptimal choice of ally' into 'being bad at the job', a haste buff on RDM might make you overcap mana before you hit your raidbuff window, but just, idk, overcap? Play like you didn't get the bonus resources, and just make use of 'my casts are now a bit faster, which leads to me doing more damage'.

Fun > balance.
Just because some people can't handle a calculator and the vocal minority is fixated on numbers shouldn't mean that all jobs have to be boring and uninspired.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Kind of a poor example. You are definitely free to be bad at your own job. What I don't want to deal with is someone being bad at their job making mine play worse.

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Then the problem isn't with haste, but the poor design of haste not being strict DPS gains in all scenarios. Solve root cause. Removing haste just made the game infinitely more boring.

Also others being bad at their job already actively makes playing yours worse because if anyone drifts their raid DPS buff cooldowns, you lose, even if you time yours perfectly.

Thinking about it, for melee the main reason Arrow sucked was because it'd drain them out of TP too fast, but skills don't cost TP anymore. Monk's whole identity is 'it goes fast' via the GL traits, everyone was cheering when it was revealed that we'd get access to GL4 in SHB (after Yoshi said during SB we probably wouldn't be getting it because 'it might be too fast for players to handle'). So if we had old Arrow again, and it got thrown on a Monk, what would be the issue? It goes even faster, it gets more chances to crit weaponskills, it gets more chakras, it does more damage. Or are we going to say 'but but this means it misaligns it's DOT so it cant get 2 applications during ROF'? Despite the side effect that a well timed Arrow would allow you to get more total GCDs inside ROF, like 11 instead of 9? Even then, you could just clip the DOT to realign things if it's really so desperately important that everything lines up perfectly.

If you want to experience Arrow-based enlightenment, go to Bozja and use the Banner of Honed Acuity, Essence of the Watcher (for the evasion), and Bozja Earrings. That's all you need, Banner buff up, dodge 3 attacks from a mob outside camp, you get the Banner buff to your GCD speed for 3 mins, go back to the camp and mess about on the training dummies with your new GCD of 1.50s. For added ridiculous, use Lost Fair Trade (it counts as a weaponskill, so crits will give chakras) and stack your bag with Resistance Potions. They weigh 1 each, so Fair Trade only hits for 50 potency, but it's not about the damage it's about the crit procs. Means you have to weave an OGCD every 4 seconds, it's wild

Part of the reason I don't ever want to raid savage is that I loathe DPS checks just as a concept, except if they want to put it on like, one boss per raid or something. If they designed enrages to be far more lenient, serving as a failsafe in case of cheese rather than a strict "YOU BETTER SQUEEZE EVERY OUNCE OF DPS POSSIBLE OUT OF EVERYONE WITHIN THIS REALLY STRICT TIME LIMIT OR YOU'LL JUST WIPE!!!11one" then this absolute tunnel vision on having everything being 100% about DPS all the time might relent just a little bit, and open up for a bit more experimentation. Imagine if they made resource management a thing again, and you could try to build certain jobs around either being bursty, or sustained? What if you could choose between having a really DPS heavy warrior, or one that was a bit better at surviving, depending on which secondary stats you focused on? What if stats like Piety and Tenacity mattered? Like at all?
It would still be possible to just focus everything on bursting the boss down as soon as humanly possible, and a great many would probably flock to that alternative, but imagine if you didn't have to mald about wiping because Double Down didn't crit enough times? And yes, imagine AST cards doing more than just buffing raw damage...

There would of course be issues involved, and I think the biggest one is literally just the community itself, or rather, the parts of the community who insist on the current design being the one and only path, now and forever, those that insist that nobody would ever want to see it change and choose to die on the hill of "DPS is king, ALWAYS."
And I can identify with that point of view. There would be parties who fight bosses for an inordinate amount of time at a time where previously they would just hit the enrage and wipe, then go again. Some fights would be prolonged to an extent that many would be furious about because people who would otherwise wipe instead haul out a losing battle to last for longer than it "should". But my opinion on that is just......... so what?

I'm looking at the possibilities it would create first and foremost. To get back on the topic of the thread; This change would let the devs redesign AST to be more interesting!

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Part of the reason I don't ever want to raid savage is that I loathe DPS checks just as a concept, except if they want to put it on like, one boss per raid or something. If they designed enrages to be far more lenient, serving as a failsafe in case of cheese rather than a strict "YOU BETTER SQUEEZE EVERY OUNCE OF DPS POSSIBLE OUT OF EVERYONE WITHIN THIS REALLY STRICT TIME LIMIT OR YOU'LL JUST WIPE!!!11one" then this absolute tunnel vision on having everything being 100% about DPS all the time might relent just a little bit, and open up for a bit more experimentation. Imagine if they made resource management a thing again, and you could try to build certain jobs around either being bursty, or sustained? What if you could choose between having a really DPS heavy warrior, or one that was a bit better at surviving, depending on which secondary stats you focused on? What if stats like Piety and Tenacity mattered? Like at all?
It would still be possible to just focus everything on bursting the boss down as soon as humanly possible, and a great many would probably flock to that alternative, but imagine if you didn't have to mald about wiping because Double Down didn't crit enough times? And yes, imagine AST cards doing more than just buffing raw damage...

There would of course be issues involved, and I think the biggest one is literally just the community itself, or rather, the parts of the community who insist on the current design being the one and only path, now and forever, those that insist that nobody would ever want to see it change and choose to die on the hill of "DPS is king, ALWAYS."
And I can identify with that point of view. There would be parties who fight bosses for an inordinate amount of time at a time where previously they would just hit the enrage and wipe, then go again. Some fights would be prolonged to an extent that many would be furious about because people who would otherwise wipe instead haul out a losing battle to last for longer than it "should". But my opinion on that is just......... so what?

I'm looking at the possibilities it would create first and foremost. To get back on the topic of the thread; This change would let the devs redesign AST to be more interesting!

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Removing enrages factually removes the skill required for encounters

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Removing enrages factually removes the skill required for encounters

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Body check mechanics exist. You could probably have a reasonably demanding fight where the challenge is more about making sure everyone's alive for key points without needing a strict damage check.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Body check mechanics exist. You could probably have a reasonably demanding fight where the challenge is more about making sure everyone's alive for key points without needing a strict damage check.

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And it would be factually harder if needing to meet a DPS check. Duh

Removing DPS check enrages indeed removes one aspect of encounter difficulty. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is definitely up for debate.
Getting rid of them would upset a great many people no doubt, many of which would point to raids now being the worst they've ever been because they now cater to mega-casuals who can't meet DPS checks.
People can argue until they die about whether DPS checks are a heavensent blessing, or a stifling burden, but one objective truth about the matter is that it would open the floor for the devs to be more adventurous in job designs.
At the moment, it's damage damage damage damage damage and damage.
And not only that, all of that damage must fit inside the 2min burst windows. Because more damage. AST cards? Changed to only buff damage. Then shoved into the burst window. More damage.

There's an argument to be made that many people prefer this gameplay loop, and all the more power to them. I strongly dislike it because in my view it just limits creativity and makes for a boring and unpleasant way to design things, but that's also why I'm simply opting out of doing it. Not for me, and that's fine.
But I'll still share my opinion about it, it's not like it's been this way since day 1 if people I've spoken to are any indication. It's a game whose design changes over time, and well, this is how I'd like to see it change; more variation.

Apologies if this rant hijacked the intention of the thread, but ultimately, encounter design basically governs how jobs are designed, so in order for AST to become more interesting, I think taking a good hard look at what is needed in the game's fights is necessary.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And it would be factually harder if needing to meet a DPS check. Duh

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Does Titan Ex have an enrage? It has body checks through Gaols (you need minimum three people to not wipe), and I'd consider that fight much more difficult than say EW ex trial 3, which does have an enrage and body checks.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Does Titan Ex have an enrage? It has body checks through Gaols (you need minimum three people to not wipe), and I'd consider that fight much more difficult than say EW ex trial 3, which does have an enrage and body checks.

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Ya titan ex had an enrage at 11 minutes I believe and it’s just an upheaval with unavoidable knock back and still kills you.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Then the problem isn't with haste, but the poor design of haste not being strict DPS gains in all scenarios. Solve root cause. Removing haste just made the game infinitely more boring.

Also others being bad at their job already actively makes playing yours worse because if anyone drifts their raid DPS buff cooldowns, you lose, even if you time yours perfectly.

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So you are saying that we should homogenize all jobs so they all have a DoT and close to no damage oGCDs? Because that is the only way you actually make haste universally desirable. You know what this reminds me of? Healer design. Or you know, we can actually go with the correct option and turn haste effect into something more palatable... you know, like a damage buff?

And again, entirely irrelevant counter argument. I don't care about them drifting or not. This has no relevancy on my moment to moment gameplay, only the final output. I do care about random oGCDs showing up there they shouldn't because some AST decided that their fun is more important than mine.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

I do care about random oGCDs showing up there they shouldn't because some AST decided that their fun is more important than mine.

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Then you'll be happy to know that Arrow had zero effect on OGCDs, only GCDs. Spear USED to make your OGCDs used under it's effect incur a lower CD, but it got changed to Crit Rate. So yeh, you getting an arrow as RDM would give you more VerWhatever casts and that's it, and if you reach 100/100 too quickly because of it, just ignore the overcap and wait till the burst window. Your damage was still increased by virtue of getting more VerWhatever's out.

FireMage loves to throw the word 'strawman' around, but that first bit is a textbook example. You might want to look up the old card effects before you rant about how they'll ruin your precious game experience, because I guess either you forgot, or didn't even play when it was a thing. Now, if you want to go for 'it'll make me run out of MP too fast' I could maybe acknowledge it as holding some water, and by 'some water' I mean like a teaspoonful, because Lucid is so disgustingly strong in it's effect MP basically doesn't exist outside of limiting how many times a res can be used

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Then you'll be happy to know that Arrow had zero effect on OGCDs, only GCDs. Spear USED to make your OGCDs used under it's effect incur a lower CD, but it got changed to Crit Rate. So yeh, you getting an arrow as RDM would give you more VerWhatever casts and that's it, and if you reach 100/100 too quickly because of it, just ignore the overcap and wait till the burst window. Your damage was still increased by virtue of getting more VerWhatever's out.

FireMage loves to throw the word 'strawman' around, but that first bit is a textbook example. You might want to look up the old card effects before you rant about how they'll ruin your precious game experience, because I guess either you forgot, or didn't even play when it was a thing. Now, if you want to go for 'it'll make me run out of MP too fast' I could maybe acknowledge it as holding some water, and by 'some water' I mean like a teaspoonful, because Lucid is so disgustingly strong in it's effect MP basically doesn't exist outside of limiting how many times a res can be used

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Arrow threw off multiple Jobs back in SB, and would throw off even more now, it wasn't a good thing to have in the game

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Then you'll be happy to know that Arrow had zero effect on OGCDs, only GCDs. Spear USED to make your OGCDs used under it's effect incur a lower CD, but it got changed to Crit Rate. So yeh, you getting an arrow as RDM would give you more VerWhatever casts and that's it, and if you reach 100/100 too quickly because of it, just ignore the overcap and wait till the burst window. Your damage was still increased by virtue of getting more VerWhatever's out.

FireMage loves to throw the word 'strawman' around, but that first bit is a textbook example. You might want to look up the old card effects before you rant about how they'll ruin your precious game experience, because I guess either you forgot, or didn't even play when it was a thing. Now, if you want to go for 'it'll make me run out of MP too fast' I could maybe acknowledge it as holding some water, and by 'some water' I mean like a teaspoonful, because Lucid is so disgustingly strong in it's effect MP basically doesn't exist outside of limiting how many times a res can be used

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You do realize that's the exact problem, right? Any job, has two simultaneously running timelines that have a fixed interaction between each other - the GCDs and the oGCDs. Effects like haste only affect one of those timelines, shifting it forward. This leads to your fixed interaction points (the weave windows) no longer aligning the way they should. Making the whole exprience just plain unpleasant. But you know, admittedly, I might be asking the "fun" side to understand a bit too much.

And you know, if we are going with "just ignore and pretend it didn't happen" approach I think I have a great recommendation for you! Just ignore ShB changes. AST still has those old cards. Just pretend that you are giving someone haste with Arrow. Of course, in practice it's actually a much more useful direct damage increase, but you can think it isn't!

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Originally Posted by Kansene

snip

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Damage will always be the number one goal when it comes to optimizing a fight, but I generally agree. Older fights had lenient hard enrages because there were way more soft enrages built in such as the boss getting a permanent stacking damage buff if a mechanic is failed. The fights were less of a dance floor and more about endurance, doing the same mechanic again and again in a phase, trying not to run out of resources. IMO the mechanics were not difficult movement wise but they hurt really bad even if you passed it. I think a hard enrage is still necessary so you aren't playing it too safe by not doing damage and regenerating resources, but yeah I'd also like to see a return to those kind of fights. But even if the current encounter design stayed the same, I think the jobs can still be interesting. Maybe it could use a bit more HEAL checks (not mitigation checks, yoshi p), but resource management is a thing that I think doesn't rely on encounter design to function.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

You do realize that's the exact problem, right? Any job, has two simultaneously running timelines that have a fixed interaction between each other - the GCDs and the oGCDs. Effects like haste only affect one of those timelines, shifting it forward. This leads to your fixed interaction points (the weave windows) no longer aligning the way they should.

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So your whole argument against AST having a way to increase people's GCD speed is... it would make your OGCDs come off CD at a time that means you can't press them right away, because of your GCD animation lock? How do you manage, each tier when new crafted gear comes out and is stacked with skill/spellspeed? I don't think I've ever seen ANYone complain about GCD/OGCD alignment like this, like wow you had to use Fleche 0.5 seconds later because animation lock barse ruined

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Originally Posted by Azuri

And you know, if we are going with "just ignore and pretend it didn't happen" approach I think I have a great recommendation for you! Just ignore ShB changes. AST still has those old cards. Just pretend that you are giving someone haste with Arrow. Of course, in practice it's actually a much more useful direct damage increase, but you can think it isn't!

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Believe me, most of us wish we could. But we got stuck with zero interactivity Divination, 'play this correctly and it's still less than 1% DPS buff' Astrodyne, 1 nuke 1 dot rotations on every healer, etc. We WISH we could 'pretend' we're back in SB. I used to be like you once, thinking that the Balance-fishing sucked, and that the SHB cards were going to be better. Wanting stuff changed for the sake of balance. Then they came for me and my class at the time, DRK. Then I realised how stupid it was to throw away the flavor and identity and SOUL of the classes, to make the bars on a third party website nobody gives a rat's arse about be slightly more similar in size. Because we can't ever make them 'the same size'. One's always going to be bigger than the other, even if it's by one pixel. By one point of damage per second.

Removing all the flavor of the classes in pursuit of the unreachable goal of 'perfect balance' is like, idk, removing the aspects of taste of ice-cream flavors that some people don't like, to try and make a flavor that is perfectly balanced so everyone will like it. Someone doesn't like chocolate, we remove the chocolate flavor. Someone doesn't like mint, we remove the mint. Someone doesn't like vanilla, we remove the vanilla. And by the end of it, we have the ice cream flavor that offends nobody's tastes, the one that everyone will surely love: Ice. Frozen water.

Ah so we're just going for flat out mass hyperbole now eh Roe?

No, just oddly specific comparisons

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

No, just oddly specific comparisons

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No, it was mass hyperbole. Look up the word in the dictionary if you have to

Maybe you should, while you're there you can look up 'strawman' so you can stop using that wrong too

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Maybe you should, while you're there you can look up 'strawman' so you can stop using that wrong too

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I already have the requisite education to use both words correctly. Fact is your long winded post was full of hyperbole, class flavor hasn't been removed for balance on any singular job ever

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

HW/SB 'fast, sustained damage DRK' turning into SHB 'WAR, but edgy' DRK, AST cards, SCH losing it's DOTs, SMN losing it's DOTs/pet control aspects, MCH moving from gun class to go-go-gadget bottom-of-the-dps-charts, NIN losing aggro management tools, Tanks in general losing aggro management as a gameplay factor, Healers losing Cleric Stance as an optimization (HW Cleric Stance can stay gone, but the SB role action was ok), classic WHM skill Protect completely removed instead of being reworked into a WHM specific thing, any potential difference in identity Sage could have had beyond 'what if SCH didn't have to fight it's fairy to do OGCDs', list probably goes on but it'll all be waved away with 'strawman!' as usual I suspect

why am I even trying

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DRK, still revolves around proper use of MP, and has one of the busiest bursts in the game still, try again. AST cards were imbalanced, they are still a facet of the Job though. SCH gained, yes gained, more identity by removing some of its SMN jank. SMN, has gained better identity with EW. MCH gained identity with its expansion of tools. NIN lost no identity with the removal of tools that only punished tanks if they weren't used. Tanks, see prior, also imagine actually saying that aggro management is class identity, yikes. Healers losing CS was for the benefit of the role. WHM Protect punished any non WHM comp. SGE and SCH are practically night and day, you should know this. Like holy hell, you should know better than this given your skill, sad. Also 20 post daily limit is cancer

HW/SB 'fast, sustained damage DRK' turning into SHB 'WAR, but edgy' DRK, AST cards, SCH losing it's DOTs, SMN losing it's DOTs/pet control aspects, MCH moving from gun class to go-go-gadget bottom-of-the-dps-charts, NIN losing aggro management tools, Tanks in general losing aggro management as a gameplay factor, Healers losing Cleric Stance as an optimization (HW Cleric Stance can stay gone, but the SB role action was ok), classic WHM skill Protect completely removed instead of being reworked into a WHM specific thing, any potential difference in identity Sage could have had beyond 'what if SCH didn't have to fight it's fairy to do OGCDs', list probably goes on but it'll all be waved away with 'strawman!' as usual I suspect

why am I even trying

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So you are saying that we should homogenize all jobs so they all have a DoT and close to no damage oGCDs?

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Not at all. I want the opposite. The only reason you really care about haste is because all jobs are currently homogenized to a 2 minute burst window. Having less homogenized jobs would mean haste would benefit some jobs more than others (like better on a BLM than a BRD), giving a lot more fun to the game, not only for the AST but for the receiving player as well. I had a blast playing BLM with Arrows.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Healers losing Cleric Stance as an optimization (HW Cleric Stance can stay gone, but the SB role action was ok)

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I really really miss HW Cleric Stance. Stance dancing was so much fun to me, the feeling of committing to DPS for at least 4 seconds was very satisfying to skillfully use.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Not at all. I want the opposite. The only reason you really care about haste is because all jobs are currently homogenized to a 2 minute burst window. Having less homogenized jobs would mean haste would benefit some jobs more than others (like better on a BLM than a BRD), giving a lot more fun to the game, not only for the AST but for the receiving player as well. I had a blast playing BLM with Arrows.

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I purposely built DRK in 4.4 with a skillspeed build, at the time there were two sets the Balance recommended, one using Tome chestpiece and going full crit/dhit, and one that used the raid chestpiece and going more for skillspeed. I even did some maths and found that by changing one overmeld on one ring I could get another 0.01s shaved off my GCD, taking me to iirc 2.06 under Blood Weapon. Good times... And SAM had builds ranging from base SKS to like, 2200 (GCD of like 1.95 under Shifu) and they were all within 1% of each other somehow (I played the fast one cos it was fast), I don't get how the same team that managed that balance, now has 'easier to balance kits' on the healers and somehow they're still as far apart as they are

While the cards would be op in todays meta, the one thing I don't understand why they removed Minor Arcana (4.0 version). That one ability quite literally replaced Undraw in every way. It was always live when you drew a card, reduced the rng of bad cards so it doesn't mess up you RR (or seals if implemented in EW), and gave you beneficial effect via Lady/Lord. It did everything in one button and replaced a dead one as well. The MA we have now is just button bloat and Undraw still is in the game but ironically its not in pvp. At least the cards there function well and aren't a hinderance on controller.

EW Minor Arcana only made it worse and still didn't remove Undraw. There was nothing wrong with Royal Road and all they had to do was adjust the card effects. If they kept all the card effects of 4.0 but replaced Spire's TP regen, to a movement speed buff I'm sure you would see a large difference in overall appeal to cards. ex. don't have a SCH in party? Just use a Spire expanded and you have a movement speed buff similar to fists of wind from MNK. RR was simple to understand, had ways to mitigate and negate rng, every card was useful, less spam and was overall easier on controller.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

class flavor hasn't been removed for balance on any singular job ever

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That made me legit lol while reading.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

DRK, still revolves around proper use of MP, and has one of the busiest bursts in the game still, try again. AST cards were imbalanced, they are still a facet of the Job though. SCH gained, yes gained, more identity by removing some of its SMN jank. SMN, has gained better identity with EW. MCH gained identity with its expansion of tools. NIN lost no identity with the removal of tools that only punished tanks if they weren't used. Tanks, see prior, also imagine actually saying that aggro management is class identity, yikes. Healers losing CS was for the benefit of the role. WHM Protect punished any non WHM comp. SGE and SCH are practically night and day, you should know this. Like holy hell, you should know better than this given your skill, sad. Also 20 post daily limit is cancer

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DRK used to be not-all-about-burst, thats the point, it had a more sustained damage profile that didn't care as much about 'fit everything into this 15 seconds'. AST cards might have been imbalanced but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is kinda stupid, same with Dark Arts spam, HW had no complaints about DA, it was only when they made EVERYthing DA'able in SB that people got RSI, and instead of changing DA to have 'less often but more impactfull effect' it was just flat out removed and changed to Edge spam, Darkside management got completely removed as you now generate 2 mins of buff timer every 1 min of gameplay, you have to literally TRY to let it fall off. SCH 'gained identity' is the biggest joke I might have seen all year, being able to succor the team, then later deploy that same succor off of the fairy hit the 'genius tactician' identity far better than what we have now. We also lost the unique Esuna animations of Leeches and Exalted Detriment, just to put Esuna in Role Actions where people might forget to pick it up, and let you die to the Doom at the start of Exdeath. Good 'balance'. SMN got 'closer to the original SMN fantasy' yes but some people liked the OLD identity is my point. They like DOT classes or pet classes or whatever, and the game's slowly removing that as features, more and more DOTs are removed because 'oh engine cant handle over 60 debuffs on the enemy'. Stop putting weird pointless stuff on classes, like why is Trick Attack a debuff and not a selfbuff for NIN, why did they add Shadow of Death to RPR when they removed Heavy Thrust from DRG. NIN manipulating aggro was an aspect of 'identity' whether you like it or not, being able to trick an enemy into attacking the wrong thing is like, ninjas do the log-substitute in media all the time, of course it makes sense they'd be able to log-substitute technique into their very tanky ally.

Actually I take it back, 'imagine saying aggro management is class identity' is the biggest joke I've seen all year and it's not even close:

https://i.gyazo.com/4d48c9360498d7bf...8bc13956da.png

Healers losing Heavensward Cleric was of benefit to the role yes, and I said as much. Losing SB Cleric (15sec of 5% increased damage) just meant losing a tool that could be used to optimize damage with. WHM original Protect punished people for not having WHM, that's why they changed it so Protect always had the Proshell effect. That was at HW launch though so IDK why you bring it up. What I mean is, Protect has been a staple WHM skill in older games for forever. Instead of reworking Protect into, IDK, 'single target % mitigation' like Aquaveil now is, they just removed the skill entirely. Heck, they could have made it Aquaveil but lower level, that upgrades via trait INTO Aquaveil and that'd be fine by me. SCH and SGE:

https://i.imgur.com/ziVcye6.png

As 'night and day' as Eos and Selene are

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That made me legit lol while reading.

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Me too, but in a 'I have to laugh because if I don't, Ill cry in despair' kind of way

You just proved me right, thanks. It's sad seeing someone with skill be this dumb

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I don't care if it was a nightmare to BaLaNcE, it was fun. It had soul. Giving BLMs Enhanced Arrows and BRDs Extended Spears for more procs was so much fun. It wasn't all just AoE Balance. Throw a Ewer on your co-healer that just died and got res'd, laugh as you draw 6 Balances in a row and start dumping Enhanced Balances on your best DPS then extend it with your OGCD buff I forget the name of, Time Dialation?

I miss it so much. SB AST was best AST.

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Agreed I said this about 100+ times already and glad someone out there saw use of the other cards and not just balance in SB. Only card that became bad when tp was removed was spire.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Fun trumps balance any day and the old cards were more fun. Not only did you have to put a bit of thought into your cards, every card was useful and felt useful when done right which is something the game lacks- visible feedback that makes it feel like your buffs are doing something

the people who whinged that they wanted balance only were the ones wanting big parses

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Thats exactly what I been saying. Like who gave those entitled ones the right to ruin others fun. Now look at the jokes we have as buff. Most dps jobs affords better buffs than ast cards atm.

I saved Savage raid parties thanks to the aoe bole in pf because the other healer was not experienced that much.
I eased the burdun of healing a not ont point tank in dps stance with enhanced bole.
I helped my co-healer refresh mp after death.

I properly buffed with arrow/spear/balance when needeed in optimized environment.

Cards had several uses for several scenario : dungeon, 24-man raid, eureka, savage ....


But anyway...
Yeah I miss it.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

SGE and SCH are practically night and day, you should know this. Like holy hell, you should know better than this given your skill, sad. Also 20 post daily limit is cancer

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I wouldn't call them "night and day".
SCH and SGE don't exactly spend their ressource the same way indeed (SCH prefer fey skills first because AF stacks "costs" is 100 potency" while SGE will prefer to spend their stack first to prevent overcapping and keep a good mana pool).
Some skills are similar and different at the same time.

Overall, this isn't a 100% copy playstyle and skillset, but the majority of SGE's design comes from SCH no matter what.

On one hand, I disagree with people saying SGE and SCH are exactly the same, but the differences aren't SO significant to tell they are "night and day".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Overall, this isn't a 100% copy playstyle and skillset, but the majority of SGE's design comes from SCH no matter what.

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I'll take blatant falsehoods for 200

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I'll take blatant falsehoods for 200

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I don't see where are the falsehood here.
You just have to pick each skills one by one to see it.

I play both anyway. I'm mostly okay with what they did so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I don't see where are the falsehood here.
You just have to pick each skills one by one to see it.

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And it's not there. Next

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I wouldn't call them "night and day".
SCH and SGE don't exactly spend their ressource the same way indeed (SCH prefer fey skills first because AF stacks "costs" is 100 potency" while SGE will prefer to spend their stack first to prevent overcapping and keep a good mana pool).
Some skills are similar and different at the same time.

Overall, this isn't a 100% copy playstyle and skillset, but the majority of SGE's design comes from SCH no matter what.

On one hand, I disagree with people saying SGE and SCH are exactly the same, but the differences aren't SO significant to tell they are "night and day".

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SGE doesn't have enough abilities to make it different from SCH for me to not call it a clone. It is a clone and even if it wasn't, not worth being advertised as a "new healer" because it barely does anything different from existing ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I don't see where are the falsehood here.
You just have to pick each skills one by one to see it.

I play both anyway. I'm mostly okay with what they did so...

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The only time you should take that person's posts seriously is if at least 1 other person supports the claim with their own argument, which almost never happens.

SGE technically doesn't do everything SCH does to a tee, but it doesn't exactly bring much new to the table. I'd say 80% of the kit is recycled from SCH with some tiny twist, so I understand when people call it a clone.