WAR needs a rework

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

In it's real case, Menenius's acceleration bomb mechanic has been known to be bugged for a long time now, you can see vids on youtube/threads on reddit of people of every job being absolute still and getting exploded, so its non a pet entity problem. It triggers off of your character doing any non-idle animation whatsoever...which is problematic if he's close enough to do an auto to you, which then causes your character to do their 'get hit' animation, or initiate the parry animation, both of which will kill you if they line up with the small window of Accel bomb's resolution.

The only real way to mitigate it is to put distance between you & Menenius so that after he finishes whatever cast he's doing right before the Accel bomb, it'll take him too long to close the distance to auto you. Or just Flare star to skip all that nonsense lmao

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Interesting info. Ill keep that in mind if I fight him again.

You will never catch me do Flarestar skip though, I enjoy the fights way too much for that.

Wish we had a tank that played like a monk, love how fluid the combat is. You can pick whatever you want to do without stopping.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

Wish we had a tank that played like a monk, love how fluid the combat is. You can pick whatever you want to do without stopping.

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that reminds me, something that could be fun for War, might be a trait that speeds up its GCD to MNK levels of fast. Not sure how practical/impractical it would be though.

Edit: Btw. i really enjoy current WAR, its my favourite tank in terms of rotation, followed by GNB.

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Originally Posted by AlessaImpera

that reminds me, something that could be fun for War, might be a trait that speeds up its GCD to MNK levels of fast. Not sure how practical/impractical it would be though.

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That... sounds like a lot of fun, actually. And with WAR not having so many oGCDs to weave, you wouldn't really run into a problem fitting everything in the way you sometimes can on GNB. Would probably fix the issue of its damage being garbage, too. Even fits with the whole undying berserker thing WAR has going on.

Giving WAR haste would be cool, but you risk seriously pissing off the DRK population lol. Then again, maybe this is par for the course.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Giving WAR haste would be cool, but you risk seriously pissing off the DRK population lol. Then again, maybe this is par for the course.

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Oh it would, considering that was part of DRK's original identity.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Giving WAR haste would be cool, but you risk seriously pissing off the DRK population lol. Then again, maybe this is par for the course.

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Could just give it to drk tbh.
I'm of the opinion that Dark Knight is badly designed currently. But Warrior also.
Drk feels like "slap a bunch of OGCDS and damage 1, 2, 3" it copies too much from warriors design

Warrior SHB > EW is a downgrade from a "fun perspective" SHB warrior was actually somewhat fun and more interesting to me, EW warrior feels really boring to play



Both need changes Imo, just that cuz drk got big numbers now most people are happy with it. I want a total rework of the Job but instead they decided to change PLD because it wasn't boring enough.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I want a total rework of the Job but instead they decided to change PLD because it wasn't boring enough.

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Paladin is hardly getting picked in Savage/Ultimate raids, specially week 1 clears, carrying abilities effectively useless and out of date against modern standards. Raiders like me hate the current Paladin, it's garbage, there's no point playing a tank requiring horrible conditions against a tank that has more miti, better DPS, and adapts comps better.

DRK used to have haste. Blood Weapon in SB gave 10% haste and Delirium increased it's duration. So its ironic how SB's Dark Arts spam was reworked into shadow spam but somehow became less fun.

3.0-4.1 is still peak war and would be considered broken by todays standard. Berserk was 50% attack power (eventually getting nerfed to 20%, then removed entirely), Bloodbath synergized with Berserk and Vengeance for insane heals for 25 secs (90 sec cd btw, the same as Berserk), Storm's Path was 100% reprisal uptime, Storms Eye was slashing debufff for NIN and other tanks, Homlgang was 3 mins (same duration as PLD Sentinel), Unchained removed damage penalty of Defiance, cross-class with MNK meant it had access to Mantra, Second Wind and Internal Release (crit up).

Needless to say WAR is still paying for that and its probably why it hits like a wet noodle despite showing "bigger" dmg numbers. You would think that bigger numbers would do bigger dmg but apparently quantity > quality. Its no wonder why DRK, an ogcd focused job is better than WAR, a gcd focused job. All they need to do is buff IC/PR by like 20-40 potency and that should bring it in line with DRK and GNB. No need for excessive ogcds reworks, just make the gcds hit harder during bursts which ironically WAR used to be back in 3.0. It just didn't line up with NIN's TA so it was "balanced". If it did line up with NIN TA, it might have gotten a rework mid expansion.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Needless to say WAR is still paying for that and its probably why it hits like a wet noodle despite showing "bigger" dmg numbers. You would think that bigger numbers would do bigger dmg but apparently quantity > quality.

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Right now I'm not even sure if warrior has either quantity or quality.

Even with guaranteed direct crits and the damage bonus from your direct hit stat the potencies are still incredibly underwhelming.

Your Primal Rend, even with all the damage modifiers you get, only amounts to about as much as 2 non crit/direct hit Blasting Zones that a GnB does in 60 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Paladin is hardly getting picked in Savage/Ultimate raids, specially week 1 clears, carrying abilities effectively useless and out of date against modern standards. Raiders like me hate the current Paladin, it's garbage, there's no point playing a tank requiring horrible conditions against a tank that has more miti, better DPS, and adapts comps better.

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Not a Issue with PLD, it's a issue with fitting everything into "burst meta" also PLD isn't that bad, it's suboptimal it can clear perfectly fine, These "modern raiders" you talk about, tend to make a big deal out of a job not performing as well as the others. Sure I think things about PLD could be changed, I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

I honestly rather PLD remain "trash" and not good in comparison in raids if it means the jobs still fun, If I wanted to play a DPS burst meta job I'd go play dark knight or gunbreaker. I play Paladin because I actually feel like the job is rewarding to play and dynamic.

EDIT:
if 6.3 manages to fix PLD's burst a bit without removing its core gameplay then that's good, I want the job to be more viable just not at the sake of ruining something that is genuinely fun

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Originally Posted by AlessaImpera

that reminds me, something that could be fun for War, might be a trait that speeds up its GCD to MNK levels of fast. Not sure how practical/impractical it would be though.

Edit: Btw. i really enjoy current WAR, its my favourite tank in terms of rotation, followed by GNB.

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I had a similar idea for DRK and Delirium but I think with how many oGCDs it has, it would just make DRK super clunky (HW/SB Blood Weapon still sounds cool though). I think it could work with WAR since most of its damage comes from GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

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Sounds nice on table, it's horrible overall to balance around timings. Modern raiders don't look at only damage, they look on mitigation tool kits included and Paladin has essentially nothing in comparison. DOTs do not register shield block Mitigation and Paladin only has 2 self cooldowns in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

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Pld was fine in SHBs as I keep mentioning, it synced 60s-2 mins with an manipulation and wasn't a loss.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

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Not really until it's rotation has optimised taking several weeks. Paladin going in blind content it's DPS is below, or on par a Healer.

The gauge need to be more use outside of fell cleave or decimate spender. I hope they do something about the gameplay being lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Sounds nice on table, it's horrible overall to balance around timings. Modern raiders don't look at only damage, they look on mitigation tool kits included and Paladin has essentially nothing in comparison. DOTs do not register shield block Mitigation and Paladin only has 2 self cooldowns in that regard.



Pld was fine in SHBs as I keep mentioning, it synced 60s-2 mins with an manipulation and wasn't a loss.



Not really until it's rotation has optimised taking several weeks. Paladin going in blind content it's DPS is below, or on par a Healer.

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Lets go over this:

1. Mitigation, I actually agree that PLD's mitigation is lacking I would like to see more defensive cooldowns, maybe reworking it's self healing (so it's still there or even stronger) so it's not tied to rotation, it should also have at least one more personal, I believe it lacks 2 self mitigations, having 2 raid wides doesn't really make up for it, also Blocks should work aganist dots, Intervention can also be buffed a bit so it's not worse holy shelltron for a friend, In general you can make it's mitigations less janky, rework cover ect. I agree that PLDS the worst defensive tank when it should really be one of the strongest ones. But every time I mention PLD's mitigations being clunky and bad compared to other tanks I get "only dps matters!" (not from you, but most people).

2. PLD SHB was good, I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky, SHB PLD struggled a lot more defensively then EW PLD, but it was still viable, you could never really MT as PLD unless you wanted a DPS loss, there was general clunkyness to the design of SHB PLD. But in general it was a good job from a rotational standpoint.

3. Pretty sure you're incorrect that PLD will do "Healer damage" in unoptimized situations this seems like a exaggeration, it will generally be a bit behind warrior in damage, for sure PLD needs the be the most "Optimised" but I see that as a strength in the job, if you're able to do more damage because you optimised your rotation for that fight, it actually makes the job more interesting.


I'm not saying any changes to PLD would be bad, but I don't think I'm hopeful for the rework.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

2. PLD SHB was good, I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky, SHB PLD struggled a lot more defensively then EW PLD, but it was still viable, you could never really MT as PLD unless you wanted a DPS loss, there was general clunkyness to the design of SHB PLD. But in general it was a good job from a rotational standpoint.

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If you call SHBs Pld janky, you're very, very questionable. Except for War, it was the most balanced Xpac out of all tanks and Paladin output was on par with GNB/DRK and adapt to raid buffs as every other tank job could. EW Paladin has been an absolute mess with it's rotation and could no way sync raid buffs without being whipped in the back. Despite the flaw being unable to face tank anything, it still operated a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

If you call SHBs Pld janky, you're very, very questionable. Except for War, it was the most balanced Xpac out of all tanks and Paladin output was on par with GNB/DRK and adapt to raid buffs as every other tank job could. EW Paladin has been an absolute mess with it's rotation and could no way sync raid buffs without being whipped in the back. Despite the flaw being unable to face tank anything, it still operated a lot better.

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I said ew pld was more janky then SHB PLD hence saying "I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky".

so yeah I didn't say SHB pld was a super Janky mess, but there was general clunkyness on somethings OLD req is a good example if you fainted well rip magic for a while, Spirits with in forced you to OT, cover still existed (It's still on ew pld), There was some actual problems with SHB paladin, but SHB paladin is overall less jank then ew PLD, they're janky in different ways. it can be true that both were a bit janky for different reasons, but ew PLD is more Jank.

PLD's output being on par to DRK/GNB doesn't really matter to it's "gameplay" but yes you can say PLD was viable, generally because GNB/PLD did the most damage. Again "gameplay" and "output" are different things I rather PLD be doing the least amount of damage and still be fun, then be a drk/gnb clone, In general I want output to be high, but I want pld to be Fun.

EW rotation, is a bit messy, almost as I said "I'm not saying any changes to PLD would be bad" I wouldn't mind some changes to make it's rotation synch up better, but I don't think we're getting that, it looks like we're getting changes that will just simplify base PLD to something that resembles other tank jobs. I want PLD's rotation to actually be similar to what we had in SHB if possible with the blades combo acting as your dot reapply

but the issue lies more in synching with raid buffs, that's why PLD's SHB sustained dps doesn't work, despite all of EW's jank the issue isn't the Janky rotation it's PLD is a sustained job not a "burst" job, making PLD a burst Job would mean changing the job fundamentally, the issue we're having is I'm talking about not fixing up some PLD jank I'm talking about how they want to make it burst more into 120's even if you fixed PLD's rotation up to fit 60 seconds it wouldn't burst enough, this comes with how PLD has two burst phases instead of 1 big one.

"fixing plds rotation to be less Janky" would only really require some skill speed and spell speed synching (aslong as it's 60 seconds), not any major ability changes.

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

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I disagree that shb PLD was perfect, it was anything but to me (still fun but it felt even weaker defensively and I dislike being delegated to OT due to spirits within, there was some jank towards it), I really liked a lot of the sustain it got and the more magic it got in ew, it feels more complete to me. But I I do still think it can be improved, it's current jank isn't really great either.

We can both (hopefully) agree on making PLD's rotation synch better in 60's, that we want better for it's defensive side, I want a fun job that outputs good enough to compete with DRK/GNB, right now both jobs are better defensively and do better damage, it's not a good spot for PLD and I hope we can both agree that some good postive changes could be made for the PLD.

I generally think PLD's a fun job rotation wise but I wouldn't mind changes that make it more enjoyable, my issue comes with that I don't want the job design to be completely ruined into something that doesn't resemble current PLD or Shb PLD. I believe it's rotation is one of the best tank rotations (but the issue is it's very janky and doesn't work under 2minute meta).

I love PLD's current rotation and how it feels (if you do all your Atonements and just play like raid buffs don't exist), I simply don't like the two minute burst meta, their defensives not being good enough, or that Clemancy isn't an OGCD. There's minor gripes about Shield Bash, Cover utility, and wings but mostly it's the other issues, and HG CD being too long for most relevant content like Barb ex.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I love PLD's current rotation and how it feels (if you do all your Atonements and just play like raid buffs don't exist), I simply don't like the two minute burst meta, their defensives not being good enough, or that Clemancy isn't an OGCD. There's minor gripes about Shield Bash, Cover utility, and wings but mostly it's the other issues, and HG CD being too long for most relevant content like Barb ex.

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We've debated clemency before so lets agree to disagree on that. (we wouldn't get anywhere really)

But I generally agree that I love how PLD Feels and it's current rotation, two minute bursts generally ruin all job design, you should have some jobs that are more sustained. This has a bad effect on all tanking roles even, I don't believe "burst into 120" is nothing that feels good (when every job plays like that), it's a big problem with Warrior and Dark knight, they don't have very much to do during down time.

Stuff about defensives
It's defensives really need to at least be on par with other tanks, my personal preference is PLD having the most strongest defensives/support because it suits the job the most, I believe if we "Design" tanks we should have small differences in how strong their defensives are and damage (even if that means a tank being 1% behind). I don't like the idea of all tanks doing the same amount and having the same defensives personally, but I do think the margin shouldn't also be too far, as being a "defensive" tank will only go so far if your dps is bad. (so something like 1% behind seems fine), if the defensives were actually enough to justify it.

In general I'd actually like to see war/gnb be more on the DPS side while PLD/DRK are more on the support/defensive side with magic utilities and stuff, but again i don't want one tank to do majorly more damage then another, also don't want a tank to feel "too weak" defensively.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Stuff about defensives
It's defensives really need to at least be on par with other tanks, my personal preference is PLD having the most strongest defensives/support because it suits the job the most, I believe if we "Design" tanks we should have small differences in how strong their defensives are and damage (even if that means a tank being 1% behind). I don't like the idea of all tanks doing the same amount and having the same defensives personally, but I do think the margin shouldn't also be too far, as being a "defensive" tank will only go so far if your dps is bad. (so something like 1% behind seems fine), if the defensives were actually enough to justify it.

In general I'd actually like to see war/gnb be more on the DPS side while PLD/DRK are more on the support/defensive side with magic utilities and stuff, but again i don't want one tank to do majorly more damage then another, also don't want a tank to feel "too weak" defensively.

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Yep, I 100% agree with this. 1% less defensives for 1% more DPS is good, and makes the fulfillment of each job still satisfying in their fantasy. DPS: WAR > GNB > DRK > PLD, while defensives: PLD > DRK > GNB > WAR.