So, can I ask, for those of you that aren't native English speakers, why does the English translation piss you off?
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09-12-2022, 02:50 AMBoblawblah
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09-12-2022, 03:04 AMSentioftheHoukaiCould be worse. We could have KATE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anura
........Wait a second.... -
09-12-2022, 03:08 AMEnkidohI can't speak for myself because I only speak English and so cannot understand Japanese, and so prefer the English language version by default, but reading the posts of others who dislike the English language version in the past, seems to either be beacuse there are a): often characterisation changes made to certain characters that players have become fond of, and it changes their perspective on them (the aforementioned Hauchefant incident is but one), b): some players who are bilingual/multilingual, just end up preferring a certain version for personal reasons, but then confuse subjectivity with objectivity. And c): some just like it because they're Japanese culture fantatics that just hate on everything Western/English/US, and see fit to attack/condemn the English language versions of everything as always inferior (aka 'cultural cringe').Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Personally I think it's all rather petty, and before you pass judgement, I've had JP players who can understand speak/write English (members of my FC back on my old server Ridill, a JP server) talk about the storyline with me and are surprised when we mention things in the English version, that do not exist in the JP version, state the changes are actually better than what the JP version had, and that the English version is therefore the superior version.
Cultural cringe therefore clearly plays a very big part of this.
Also I'm a native English speaker so I guess that question wasn't really meant for me. I'm sorry about that. -
09-12-2022, 03:18 AMBoblawblah
never apologize for a well put together post :) I might disagree with you in regards to the characterizations, imo Haurchefant as a more flamboyant lovable pervert just wouldn't work in the West (English speaking Western coutnries), so I think that's them trying to have the same emotional reaction/connect to a character/situation, and I think it works.
I'm just a bit surprised when non-native English speakers care so much about the English translation. If someone told me the French translation was awful, my reaction would be "oh, okay. Sucks for them", but it wouldn't affect my enjoyment at all.
edit: (added 'English speaking countries in the West') to be most clear -
09-12-2022, 03:21 AMRyuDragnierBeyond wouldn't work in the west, people would actively dislike and be creeped out by him. Probably to the point where they'd cheer on his death, and wonder why the hell it was supposed to be sad. Localization is necessary at times, but you have people who refuse to accept that, and bash it for the sake of bashing it. Personally I take what we get because I can't read other languages well, and don't see the point in complaining outside of several questionable story beats which seem to be across all versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
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09-12-2022, 03:30 AMKazharMost of my online discussions about this game are done in English, so it does bother me a bit when the players I'm interacting with experience a different story than I did (especially since there is a huge unwarranted biais towards the English translation as being a more canon experience than its other two counterparts).Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Maybe it's true in NA, but isn't France part of the West too? And we got Creepy Weirdo Haurchefant in his full glory (don't know about the German Translation). Casual observation tells me that the French community was more than fine with that portrayal.Quote:
Haurchefant as a more flamboyant lovable pervert just wouldn't work in the West
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09-12-2022, 03:33 AMLauront^This. I tend to go through the stuff in FR as well as EN, and this is precisely the issue with it. Friends playing through the DE version and sharing translations of it have the same issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
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09-12-2022, 04:58 AMMidareyukki...except they ARE based on something, they're based on my own personal misconceptions, Kazhar. TLDR: I made a mistake. I was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
The reason for me being wrong is because Koji Fox rarely mentions those teams, implying he's not involved in their process other than the general management of "Hey team leader, is it done? Cool, test out these bugs for me and see if they're happening in your version". Given some bugs were around, I assumed that this was an oversight commonly seen in external teams. And given how communication by Square Enix that isn't written is done in English and Japanese, it led me to think that there weren't such people in Square Enix that could provide those services.
Or at least I don't think I've ever seen any PLL being interpreted into German.
I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm speaking from what's the likely scenario based on how I understand things to work at the companies I've worked for. Good to be proven wrong. But saying "it's based on nothing" is just calling me out on bullshit. Which it isn't, it's just me assuming things based on past experiences.
But tit for tat, I'll do the same to you.
No. As I stated, professionally speaking, there are two scripts. It's not something people collectively dreamt up, there are two scripts. The original Japanese script, and the changes that then occur on the English script that go beyond what's necessary in localization. The official source? We're seeing it happen all the time, people post differences in what we're given all the time in these forums. They're all over other threads on this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
You're right in that neither is superior to the other, but no, the English script does start as a translation, as you're taking the information from JP into English. But then you're adding stuff in and changing things past what translation work should be. That isn't normal in translation and localization jobs. So really, you're misconstruing things as well. When I say "this isn't translation", I mean it. Under normal circumstances, this isn't what you observe, this isn't what you do as a translator. This is a bit more involved in the writing process than just straightforward translation, and those additions should not be understood as part of the natural process of translation at all.
Edit: Basically the issue I have with what you wrote is that you jumped to the conclusion that I was talking out of my ass without giving me the chance to defend myself or acknowledge my mistake. (By "defend myself" I mean "to explain what led to me saying that", I'm otherwise still wrong, can't exactly justify being wrong). Even worse, you didn't even try to understand why I said what I said, you didn't realize why I was wrong. That isn't fair.
And to borrow the words you used, that sort of behaviour is "parroted ad nauseam by the community". -
09-12-2022, 05:08 AMBoblawblah
"I'm a pro trust me" isn't an argument
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09-12-2022, 05:14 AMMidareyukkiIt's not, but I can at least provide SOME insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I never said that I was right, miss. I never said I was the only authority you needed to listen to. Hell: DON'T. Do your own goddamn research, educate yourselves.
Before blaming translators again.
But when I do offer some insight into what it's like, and people choose to dismiss it, then you guys have no reason to complain about this topic. I might not be right all the time, but I at least am involved in these things to a professional level. I'm not a "pro" in the sense that I know all. I only know what I know, and that's evident.
But I at least know enough to know that some people are jumping in and saying crap that really isn't what you'd see in real life. There's a lot more to it, I'd think people would appreciate the extra knowledge rather than assume all we do is google translate our work.
I'm not an authority on the matter, I only speak about what I've experienced. If that isn't valuable enough to you, then so be it. For me, it's enough an argument to be considered. Considered, yes, but not believed in in blind faith. And I'm not asking for blind faith. I AM grateful for being corrected, what I'm not grateful is the way it was done.
When you happen to know more on a given field than other people and want to tell them "hey, this is how it's like there", I'd like to see you being smacked with "I don't care if you work with that area, your knowledge isn't any valuable at all so it's not an argument".
Edit: Maybe my issue was speaking with such confidence, I'll keep that in mind. But make no mistake, you guys speak out of your arse way harder, and when people call you out, you get incredibly defensive despite being wrong. -
09-12-2022, 05:50 AMMidareyukki
Honestly I'll just say this, especially after calming down a bit. So, really, read if you want, no need to actually care.
I was wrong, and I was speaking out of my ass there. I went by off of what I've personally experienced, yes, but I should still have gone and sought to see if the people in the team were or weren't outsourced. There were no actual real-life sources to what I was claiming, I should have made it clearer that I "thought" it was one way and that I wasn't actually fact-checking it.
It's no different than when I made a post on Hrothgars and claimed that there were Hrothgar being eaten alive by the Cerberus monster in Zadnor: there weren't any, they were Roegadyn, not Hrothgar. What I should have done was not speak from memory alone, but actually go out and check, especially when a lot of people didn't even remember that Skirmish existed.
I do work in translation and I do have some experience in software localization, and some stuff did strike me as odd about Square Enix, though in retrospect, that's just how companies work anyway and Square's no exception. The way these scripts are handled however, should not be taken as part of normal translation processes. A lot of translators DO unwillingly\unknowingly change stuff in a product at levels such as these, but they're not sanctioned. The way FF14 is made is something that's by definition not entirely normal, and changes to this degree aren't what you'd expect from localization. Whether my experience is valuable is entirely up to you, all I can say is my own insight and experience so you guys know that stuff might not be as straightforward as you might expect it to be. And considering we have this topic resurface every few months, it's something people should keep in mind and understand. Because it very quickly leads to people blaming the wrong party.
Again, I apologize, especially also for being incredibly defensive. You guys are right in pointing out my mistake, and YES I was speaking out of my ass. I'm not one of those posters who will just refuse to acknowledge their mistake. I do acknowledge it. But whatever justification I had or whatever grievance I had with the posters who called me out on it really didn't matter because... no, I should take the L and move on. I was wrong. I WAS speaking out of my ass. And nothing changes that.
Whether you want to listen to anything I have to say in the future is entirely up to you, I won't tell you what to do. I will, however, encourage people to fact check stuff, just in case I say something untoward again.
Sorry for the derailing, you may resume the thread. -
09-12-2022, 07:04 AMswiss_Momo
"uhhhm, ackshually Final Fantasy games always had garbage English localization, so they're just following traditions" (insert the nerd emoji gif here)
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09-12-2022, 07:18 AMMidareyukki...about this... have they? The one people tend to point out to being really crappy is FF7's "this guy are sick" translation or FFT's "Defeat Dycedarg's elder brother" moments.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_Momo
The Nintendo ones were... quirky. But weren't incorrect or didn't change that much as far as I've seen. So much that people gave some quotes a name: Woolseyism.
Then again, FF10 does have Macarena Temple, aye? I don't think that's in JP.
Basically, "what defines as a garbage localization"? Is it text having more or less nuance, is it memes, is it it being butchered...? -
09-12-2022, 08:24 AMLunalepsyPeople are paranoid. It is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconBits
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09-12-2022, 08:29 AMKazharHmm I didn't expect such reaction and I'm not too sure what to say. But it wasn't my intention to imply that you didn't know what you were talking about (I'm not a translator. All I know is from the interviews I've indirectly linked), just that your assumption was wrong in that case for the reasons I wrote. If you perceived any hostility, it came from my general annoyance at the community and not your post in particular, which I only used as a jumping point to clarify some other misconceptions I've read in many other places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
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09-12-2022, 08:37 AMBreakbeatHere, so no one needs to be scared:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kes13a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DZ56GgKyHk
Jeez. People are overly paranoid x100000000. It's youtu.be for pete's sake.
Is this why people call the cops on other people for watering their lawns and such? The fear is all out of whack.
OMG IT'S A LINK!!!! WHAT WILL WE DO?!?!? WE'RE DOOMED!!!
Lmfao... -
09-12-2022, 09:09 AMSentioftheHoukaiObviously, they're all Ganondorf. Ganon's alt accounts~Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakbeat
How are they supposed to plot their evil plots with all these LINKS running around untested and unopposed? -
09-12-2022, 09:56 AMBoblawblahYou misunderstand, I'm not giving that youtuber views. If you want us to watch something, summarize the video in the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakbeat
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09-12-2022, 11:11 AMTheSuperiorIt's an easy tactic to promote shill content under the guise of "help" in a community like this. Getting views is extremely competitive unless you get lucky. Like how a video showcasing a new glam gets 3k views vs someone else who does the same thing but better getting 3 on a good day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
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09-12-2022, 01:14 PMSentioftheHoukaiQuote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I disagree, becauseQuote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
https://i.imgur.com/bGzN9M4.gif
This guy exists
He basically IS JP Lord Horse Fart, and yet nobody seems to hate HIM or cheer on his nonexistent death
Nay, if anything the West would be positively tolerant of JP Horse Fart -
09-12-2022, 01:17 PMBoblawblah
I'm not sure how you can argue that G'raha is perverted, the WoL is his hero, his everything, if you were so inclined to be dramatic. also "Horse Fart"? am I missing a meme or something here?
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09-12-2022, 01:33 PMMomo_Kozuki
I don't mind localization as long as they don't take the liberty of rewriting quests and stories for the sake of appealing the Western players.
Let me tell you the story of Blade and Soul (I love the game, but hate the publisher). There was this section that involved your character going to the past directly to witness an event. The localization team thought this would make loopholes in the story and decided to rewrite it into "borrowing someone's vision of the past". They painstakingly changed dialogues so that NPCs would see you not a helpful stranger from the future, but someone they actually knew. However, despite their efforts, they forgot to change some lines from the original story who recognized your character decades later, so in a fight against loophole, they create a new loophole.
That and a bath-peeping quest where you help an impotent man, who is forced to marry the girl he peeps on because it is their tradition. It is deemed to extreme and the team felt sorry for the girl, so they decided to change it. Through localization, the NPC becomes a scholar who study cultural difference and marry the girl out of shared interest. Beautifully rewritten, right? -
09-12-2022, 02:37 PMTeraqI can answer that, as I play with the client in French with Japanese voice overs (I tried switching to the English client once, but Ye Olde English and the way the text was even more different to what basic Japanese I could understand were really distracting and I couldn't stand it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I often speak with people who have played the game in English, and when discussing specific lines, there are way too often instances of "what the hell are you talking about" on both sides. Then I go check into my screenshot folder, unearth the specific line by comparing character poses with the English screenshot provided by my friend, and go "wait… it's this line??". That happens a little too often for my tastes.
Often it's because of the English localisation being weirdly vague and flowery, choosing to go with epithets over bluntly saying things, which sometimes leads to people misinterpreting things and incorporating that into theories that are… well, just plain wrong. FR has much fewer flourishes than EN, the price to pay for sticking closer to the JP script which is usually very straightforward. I know that results in the English script often being more fun and having the most iconic lines, and that is cool I'll give it that, but its vagueness tends to intrude in discussions in a way I really don't care for.
One example I readily remember is of Emet's lines in Ultima Thule. I know someone playing in English who thought some of his comments were praising/referring to the WoL, while the French script makes it obvious Emet is in fact talking about Venat, whether it is by naming her, or thanks to French's much more gendered grammar and the fact that my WoL is male. Amusingly, how omnipresent gender is in French also means I had a "wait… why does everyone act like we don't know Venat is a woman??" moment from 5.2 to the release of 6.0. Apparently her gender wasn't clear in the English version of the Anamnesis recording. Due to how French works, her gender being mentioned in the Scions' lines was inevitable, but there is no reason why English couldn't simply add a mention of "that woman, Venat" or something to that effect.
Another one I can think of happens during the Zodiark trial ("The Dark Inside" VS "Le Cratère des Martyrs" – though given that Japanese trial titles are usually extremely blunt I'm going to guess the original was something to the effect of "Zodiark destruction operation", and that EN vs FR here is simply a matter of their respective localiser bias, which is interesting to see) is Fandaniel going "My life's work! My masterpiece!". In French, he is talking about how long he has waited for this day where he would finally destroy everything. Innocuous enough, yeah? But the thing about this fandom, and how… ugh… bizarrely incensed discussion can get around certain parts of lore, is that some people interpret the English line as evidence the concept of Zodiark was built by Fandaniel himself, and go off that about how essential Hermes was to the Convocation – and I'm not going to go down the Story of Endwalker Sucked rabbit hole because that would be off-topic, but it's just an example that came to mind.
Y'shtola, at some point in 6.0, saying "'Twas Hydaelyn who forestalled the Final Days" is also a "technically true" doozy that can be wildly misinterpreted, while FR has her saying, a lot more explicitly, "by keeping Zodiark alive, she forestalled the return of the Final Days he had originally prevented".
I mean, taken in isolation, all of these are innocuous. But personally, it's a recurring annoyance in my talks with friends, and I've seen it needlessly influence lore discourse when the arguments shouldn't even exist in the first place. Because whatever else English might be, it is the language most used internationally, and thus the EN localisation is the one with the most weight in everyday discussion. -
09-12-2022, 03:02 PMDeveryn
In case it hasn't been mentioned, timing can be an issue with translation. As an example, those lengthy scenes in Praetorium will finish a lot faster in Japanese than they will in English. I switched over for the sake of hearing something different and I was ready to fight Gaius maybe 20 seconds ahead of everyone. Dialogue might have to be condensed or stretched to fit a time frame.
You can clearly see the difference in timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
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09-12-2022, 03:32 PMKozhVery well out, and thanks for the examples!Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
One other example, is when hydaelyn imbue our Azem crystal. In EN she said "... crystal original bearer", which leads to people, including me, assume that she's talking about emet. Since we know that Azem's crystal was made by him in secret. However, I thought to myself that it doesn't sound like what emet would say. It's only after I speak with my friend who play in other language, that apparently in JP, she said "... creator of this magic", which is very clear that it reference Azem. And that is much more logical than having the line said by emet.
Another smaller example was when the scion were talking in 5.5 (I think?), y'sthola said "we've seen firsthand the destruction brought by zodiark". Which is weird as hell because: 1)we haven't even meet zodiark yet, 2) zodiark never cause any destruction. If I'm not mistaken, in other language what she said was (paraphrasing) "it's up to us to not let zodiark be used to destroy the world". *If I'm wrong, please correct me -
09-12-2022, 04:11 PMJojoya
Still waiting to find out how the English story is significantly different from the Japanese/French/German story because I haven't seen any sign of it. I know some of it is phrased differently but it's still the same story under the phrasing and doesn't suffer for the differences.
Maybe it would help to go into detailed examples of the differences between translation, interpretation and localization.
Here's a phrase that used to be heard a lot in English (not quite so much anymore):
Last night, my uncle kicked the bucket.
An older native English speaker is going to automatically understand that it means "Last night, my uncle died".
Someone doing a straight 1:1 translation into another language would translate it exactly as it looks: Last night, my uncle kicked the bucket. As in, my uncle took his foot and kicked a bucket across the ground or into the air.
But that's not the information to be conveyed to the non-English speaker. They need to be told the uncle has died.
Instead of translation, we turn to interpretation so the meaning of what was said is shared instead. Now, there's no misunderstanding on the part of the non-English speaker.
But what about localization? Where might that come in?
In some cultures, direct references to a person's death may be frowned on. You're not going to tell another person that someone died. You might instead say "My uncle is no longer with us". That's localization - changing what was said to be consistent with what is normal/acceptable for the other individual's culture.
Reverse it so the phrase "My uncle is no longer with us" is being spoken by a non-English speaker and translated 1:1 to an English speaker, the English speaker might respond "He's not? Well where did he go to? Will he be back soon?" Oops. Instead, it gets interpreted so the English speaker understands the uncle has died.
Translation is usually as much interpretation as direct translation because every language is going to have its colloquialisms that the translator has to work around. That's why we don't always get exact 1:1 translations and why localization is sometimes needed for concepts that simply do not translate and cannot be interpreted well.
On the subject of Haurchefant's spicy nature in JP and FR (don't know about DE) but not EN, that's easy enough to explain. The primary English speaking nations are still constrained by a rather Puritanical background where other nations aren't. His JP characterization fits easily into French culture. It doesn't in American or British culture, where such forwardness is expected to be done in private. That's why he was localized.
Was the game or Haurchefant's role radically altered by the localization? No. So why obsess over it?
Some posters in this thread need to go back and read the linked Reddit post that has the direct quotes from members of the localization teams on how the process works. To summarize:
The JP story team writes the story (the filler lore is still overseen by Oda-san). They share it with the EN localization team, that checks for what would need to be altered because a JP concept used may not work well in other languages. The JP team then reviews the EN feedback and makes adjustments. Eventually the teams working together with a final version of the story that will work in all localizations, even if phrasing and some characterizations have slight alterations.
There are not different stories for JP and EN. It's the same story. You're not going to get 1:1 translations because of differences in the languages but it is still the same story.
It would be fun if someone fluent in both languages could give us direct 1:1 translations (not interpretations) of dialogue from important story moments so we could see the results (and also to see just how accurate Google translate is with its 1:1 translations). -
09-13-2022, 02:30 AMBoblawblahthanks for your well written response, I can start to see your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
That said, maybe I'm a minority in the English speaking community, because I had no problems coming to the same conclusion as you did with only the English "translation". I have to say, these DO all seem innocuous to me. But, I don't really care about how other languages interpret it and honestly, if someone has a different take on a single line, I just don't care enough to be bothered. The story is the same. (all imo of course) -
09-13-2022, 02:42 AMRyuDragnierBut would such forwardness be taken well when your character is male? Remember, Haurchefant does this regardless of your character being male or female. Him doing it to a male would cause a lot of issues in the US and UK, due to how many people openly frown on anything even HINTING to same sex relationships.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemachu
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09-13-2022, 02:47 AMBoblawblahI'm sorry, the EU and NA have issues with same sex relationships but in Japan they're completely accepted?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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09-13-2022, 03:23 AMRyuDragnierDo people in Japan froth at the mouth at the sight of it, or news stations going completely apeshit like idiots when games/manga/anime/shows/movies give the slightest hint of same-sex anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
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09-13-2022, 03:43 AMTheodric
The UK certainly isn't like that in my experience as a gay guy who has lived in various parts of the UK.
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09-13-2022, 04:10 AMRyuDragnier
It's just a US thing then probably. People here are rather stupid, more so than other places due to the size of the country.
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09-13-2022, 04:48 AMJojoyaCorrection accepted on British values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemachu
Unfortunately, you're stuck sharing localization with the US where it just wouldn't fly past our notoriously conservative ESRB. -
09-13-2022, 05:09 AMRyuDragnierAnd people clutching their pearls about two women kissing that was less than 2 seconds long in a movie. If anybody out there thinks that reaction is stupid...you're smarter than the media and a lot of people here, who wanted to boycott it and raged about it for at least a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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09-13-2022, 06:23 AMSannaRI also must be in that small minority as I picked up on most of the things others have said they didn't until later in the story or after looking at how it's stated in a different language. For example a lot have said they didn't pick up on how the WoL must have been someone Emet knew or was close to until that 2nd talk with fake Hythlodaeus. Course maybe I just watched or read enough stuff where such subtle hints come off as someone whacking me upside the head with a brick. Or it comes from me struggling with bosses too many times in Ocarina of Time where anything that could be equated to Navi's "Hey!Listen!" point out that my brain automatically goes ohhh yeah.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
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09-13-2022, 06:29 AMSannaR
Thank you Jojoya as I don't think I could have explained or articulated why the EN version is why it's the way it is. It's not even a US thing as some colloquialisms that can be seen as a US only thing are also understood and used by those in Canada.
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09-13-2022, 06:31 AMBoblawblahDo people in Japan froth at the mouth for ANY social issue? Or do they show their attitudes towards people who don't conform to social norms in other ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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09-13-2022, 06:37 AMRyuDragnierI don't know, you tell me, you're the one who brought up Japan to begin with, I thought you'd know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
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09-13-2022, 06:37 AMBoblawblahnot interested in playing games, take care.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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09-13-2022, 06:40 AMRyuDragnier
Who is playing games? I want an actual answer here on how Japan responds to them.