Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

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Originally Posted by esra01

Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

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soo its mean PLD fated to be a co tank ? or can PLD be main tank ? kind of sad cos of this news bout PLD.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The same applies to pretty much every other tank that forgets they can use their short duration mitigation on someone else. Granted paladin is the only one that can put Intervention on someone else and then use Shelltron for themselves.

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I don't think it's a coincidence or an accident that WAR and PLD - the two lower-damage tanks - are able to make strong use of this.

PLD is able to use (Rampart/Sentinel-buffed) Intervention and Sheltron at the same time to get 28% mitigation and 1000 potency of healing on one tank, and 15% direct mitigation, an additional 20% Block on the initial hit (which is 33%-50% of the total damage, even if Block doesn't affect the DoT), and 1000 potency on themselves.
WAR is able to use Nascent Flash instead of Bloodwhetting to give 19% mitigation, a 400 potency shield, and 1600 potency of healing to one tank, while still giving themself a 400 potency shield and 1600 potency of healing.


It's a drastic difference in defensive power that the early prog/speedkill meta tanks just don't have, and I wouldn't be completely surprised if, by the end of the tier, there turns out to be some appreciation for those tanks from more mid-level groups, even if the high-end raiders are still mostly just mad about DPS. (Though it's still more likely that the high-end opinions simply continue to trickle down into the community at large.)

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Originally Posted by krisatriya

soo its mean PLD fated to be a co tank ? or can PLD be main tank ? kind of sad cos of this news bout PLD.

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Since this tier is just full of double tankbuster with bleed, I think PLD MT is a bit better. Since the one that would be taking the brunt of the damage is your ST, that is going to take the bleed and auto attack damage at the same time. With Intervention your ST should be able to handle the boss auto + bleed aftermath much more comfier

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Because they are behind enough on dps to legitimately be a detriment to the group.

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More than damage, DRK and GNB have wonderful on mitigation compared to PLD and in certain cases Warrior:
-Shake it off&Divine veil are amazing but struggles against multi hit raidwide. They're strong against physical raidwide and 2/3 consecutive raidwide thought, how much physical raidwide do we have ?
-Hallowed Ground is the worst invulnerability. On use it's the best but in the overrall content it's the least flexible Invuln. In comparision, GNB is at 1HP but doesn't take damage for 10 seconds and heals itself during this time. PLD start at full, end at full and if you're -in the wrong timing, your self healing will be wasted.
-Holy Sheltron&Intervention are on gauge, on downtime you won't build Oath gauge. Also, I'm not sure, but apparently PLD cannot parry when stunned?
-Cover is dead.
-Clemency is never used and is a DPS loss when you want the most DPS as possible.
-PLD doesn't have anything like Dark Mind, Equilibrium or Camouflage.

Bonus: PLD gets a ranged burst phase but even a Gunbreaker would have to try to loose melee uptime.
Warrior is behind but have the best defensive, PLD is behind on every ground.

WAR/PLD don't do enough damage, and PF DPS aren't good enough to carry.

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

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They should tone down drk and gnb's defensives then, warrior is only insane in dungeons, which is content that doesn't matter. HoC, HoL, Oblation dark missionary are all absurdly good for being on such high damage tanks. Realistically there's no justification for any tank being significantly higher or lower damage than the others, with the possible exception of paladin which ought to be higher given the relative difficulty in optimising it.

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Originally Posted by Crater

PLD is able to use (Rampart/Sentinel-buffed) Intervention and Sheltron at the same time to get 28% mitigation and 1000 potency of healing on one tank, and 15% direct mitigation, an additional 20% Block on the initial hit (which is 33%-50% of the total damage, even if Block doesn't affect the DoT), and 1000 potency on themselves.
WAR is able to use Nascent Flash instead of Bloodwhetting to give 19% mitigation, a 400 potency shield, and 1600 potency of healing to one tank, while still giving themself a 400 potency shield and 1600 potency of healing.

It's a drastic difference in defensive power that the early prog/speedkill meta tanks just don't have, and I wouldn't be completely surprised if, by the end of the tier, there turns out to be some appreciation for those tanks

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I would be completely suprised, if any groups gave a rats ass about one tank giving 15%, 20% or 25% mitigation to another.
Tank survival is 0/1 game, you either survived, and it doesn't matter how much was mitigated or you didn't.

Secondly, you seem to be ignoring, that GNB can provide partner tank with Heart of Corundum and DRK with Oblation and Blackest Night.

There USED to be time, when PLD's Intervention was unique ability, but it was completely erased (homogenized) in Endwalker and now all tanks have it, in one form or another with superficial differences.

The only special thing left on on PLD is:
* Cover - extremely situational and encounters are never built around it
* Passage of Arms - situational, but at least of some use
* Clemency - if you are thinking of spending GCDs in savage clear attempts on healing, better keep it to yourself

For Savage prog clears, DPS and survival via your own mitigations and invulns (pref. on short cd) are the only thing that matters.
PLD is coming of as a 3rd and 4th wheel (on a bike) in in both categories.

Current (8th Sep) number of logged clears of P8 door boss:

Gunbreaker 4,472
Dark Knight 4,737
Paladin 267
Warrior 847

That is 2.58% presence of the PLD in the clears.

Do you perhaps see any pattern?

Very high dps groups may opt to take WAR for the sake of extra invulns during fight, which can help cheese some mechanics or unburden healers in critical moments.
Only fraction of very tight and proffesional raiders clear with PLD, just for the heck of it.

How do you think anxious and mostly less skilled ppl in PFs, are going to look at the prospect, of spending their time trying that?

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Originally Posted by Oizen

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

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WAR is underpowered defensively in raids, dark missionary and heart of light are better than divine veil and shake it off because they last the entire duration, not just till the shield cracks, on top of that in situations like the DOT busters this tier while bloodwhetting gives self healing it’s actual upfront mitigation is weaker than HOC and HS (and DRK has two extra defensives) and the self heal cannot compensate for the higher DOT potency

Bloodwhetting should be changed to have a higher upfront mitigation but only activate healing once per GCD, not once per enemy per GCD, that would fix the “healers aren’t needed when WAR is the tank” in dungeons, and buff WAR’d raid survivability

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

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Mainly a rotation haul on Paladin, damage buffing to a GNB won't suddenly make it amazing, GNB/DRK will still be picked over with their capability to sync raid buffs, while Paladin has to essentially skip 2 Atonements (which is a DPS loss) to stay synced, and lacks burst capability compared to SHBs Pld.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Mainly a rotation haul on Paladin, damage buffing to a GNB won't suddenly make it amazing, GNB/DRK will still be picked over with their capability to sync raid buffs, while Paladin has to essentially skip 2 Atonements (which is a DPS loss) to stay synced, and lacks burst capability compared to SHBs Pld.

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Getting rid of PLD’s 62 second rotation I agree would be good because then it can keep its magic phase synced to raid buffs but overall it also just needs a DPS buff because even forcing it to correctly sync by changing its rotation would still leave it last in damage

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WAR is underpowered defensively in raids, dark missionary and heart of light are better than divine veil and shake it off because they last the entire duration, not just till the shield cracks, on top of that in situations like the DOT busters this tier while bloodwhetting gives self healing it’s actual upfront mitigation is weaker than HOC and HS (and DRK has two extra defensives) and the self heal cannot compensate for the higher DOT potency

Bloodwhetting should be changed to have a higher upfront mitigation but only activate healing once per GCD, not once per enemy per GCD, that would fix the “healers aren’t needed when WAR is the tank” in dungeons, and buff WAR’d raid survivability

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

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Absolutely horrible takes; the only thing I can agree with is that both PLD and WAR do need damage buffs.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Absolutely horrible takes; the only thing I can agree with is that both PLD and WAR do need damage buffs.

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And why are they such horrible takes, WAR and PLD are losing out in damage and raid survivability currently (WAR less so on raid survivability but still so due to the DOT busters)

WAR is also stupidly broken in dungeons

WAR is not losing out when it comes to raid survivability; that's a completely out of touch opinion. The only valid point of contention on that front is whether Dark Missionary/Heart of Light are better than Shake it Off, but that really just comes down to what they're being used for.

The Holy Sheltron DoT issue is overblown, especially when the option exists to swap short CDs with your co-tank. Granted, I don't expect randoms in PFs to have the presence of mind to realize this is an option, let alone utilize it. All that said, there's no good reason, balance-wise, that Blocking shouldn't factor into the DoT calculation.

PLD is in bad shape, but defensively it's fine outside of having no counterpart to Thrill of Battle, Dark Mind, or Camouflage. If a fight like DSR P6 didn't exist, I would maybe try to argue that even that's not that big of a big deal, but it does.

People actually out here pretending WAR has bad survivability, now I've seen everything.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

People actually out here pretending WAR has bad survivability, now I've seen everything.

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WAR’s survivability on the DOT busters isn’t great compared to GNB and DRK because bloodwhetting’s upfront mitigation isn’t great and the healing doesn’t compensate for the DOT damage that does more because bloodwhettings mitigation is lower, same as shake it off being weaker than dark missionary and heart of light

Other than that WAR is great on survivability, but the only risk tanks ever face is busters and right now WAR on the DOT busters isn’t going fantastic, PLD is the big problem

To be frank War is pretty terrible handling P8S P2 busters, they hit like a freight train and Drk takes around 70k by it using TBN, Dark Mind, Oblation and Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

To be frank War is pretty terrible handling P8S P2 busters, they hit like a freight train and Drk takes around 70k by it using TBN, Dark Mind, Oblation and Rampart.

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What? WAR Holmgangs the 1st and 4th busters (and the following autos) and kitchen sinks the other two; they're trivial.

Still pretty terrible, 4th is late in the fight. I'm pretty much dumping War now for raids, Drk/Gnb are honestly too good in this Xpac and Warrior only has Holmgang left to make it "useful". War only comes closer on GNB with a very restrictive comp and that's awful.

How is absolutely trivializing the busters "still pretty terrible?"

You can just say WAR has bad DPS; we already know.

Like how people just ignore that holmgang is the best invul in the game, to the point it standardized invul cheese on tank busting mechanics

But that doesn't fit into their narrative that low DPS = bad tank.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WAR is underpowered defensively in raids, dark missionary and heart of light are better than divine veil and shake it off because they last the entire duration, not just till the shield cracks, on top of that in situations like the DOT busters this tier while bloodwhetting gives self healing it’s actual upfront mitigation is weaker than HOC and HS (and DRK has two extra defensives) and the self heal cannot compensate for the higher DOT potency

Bloodwhetting should be changed to have a higher upfront mitigation but only activate healing once per GCD, not once per enemy per GCD, that would fix the “healers aren’t needed when WAR is the tank” in dungeons, and buff WAR’d raid survivability

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

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Divine Veil is 10k shield + 7k heal.

P7S raidwide is 44k upfront + 18k x 4 DoT for a total of 116.000 damage. Dark Missionary/Heart of Light would mitigate 11.600 of that while Divine Veil will mitigate 17k, Divine Veil being a shield + heal is strictly better than just pure mitigation.

About the tankbusters let's check the math again.
P7S tankbuster deals 110k upfront + 33k x 5 DoT for 275.000 damage. So then let's calculate the damage taken by both tanks using Rampart + Personal Mitigation with 1k heal/shield potency is 20% of character's health.
Warrior would get 35.2% mitigation + Bloodwhetting & Equilbrium for a total for 4.2k potency of shield&heal.(88% health)
GNB would get 42.2% mitigation + Aurora for 2.1k total heal potency.(44% health)

So let's assume both WAR and the GNB have 100.000 health.
Warrior would take 71.280 + 21.384 x 5 (106.920) = 178.200
100.000 + 88.000 - 178.200 = 9800 health left
GNB would take 63.580 + 19074 x 5 (95370 ) = 158950
100.000 + 44.000 - 158.950 = -14.950 ( dead )

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Originally Posted by esra01

Divine Veil is 10k shield + 7k heal.

P7S raidwide is 44k upfront + 18k x 4 DoT for a total of 116.000 damage. Dark Missionary/Heart of Light would mitigate 11.600 of that while Divine Veil will mitigate 17k, Divine Veil being a shield + heal is strictly better than just pure mitigation.

About the tankbusters let's check the math again.
P7S tankbuster deals 110k upfront + 33k x 5 DoT for 275.000 damage. So then let's calculate the damage taken by both tanks using Rampart + Personal Mitigation with 1k heal/shield potency is 20% of character's health.
Warrior would get 35.2% mitigation + Bloodwhetting & Equilbrium for a total for 4.2k potency of shield&heal.(88% health)
GNB would get 42.2% mitigation + Aurora for 2.1k total heal potency.(44% health)

So let's assume both WAR and the GNB have 100.000 health.
Warrior would take 71.280 + 21.384 x 5 (106.920) = 178.200
100.000 + 88.000 - 178.200 = 9800 health left
GNB would take 63.580 + 19074 x 5 (95370 ) = 158950
100.000 + 44.000 - 158.950 = -14.950 ( dead )

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Divine veil also puts the healing upfront, so either you don’t have mitigation for the initial hit which can and will oneshot the party without effective mitigation so as to not waste the heal or you pop it after the initial hit so that you get the heal and the shield mitigates the DOT’s but the raidwide itself goes unmitigated by the tank, this is to say nothing of situations like terminal relativity or curtain call where shield mitigation is out and out inferior in all situations

As for the tank buster situation I’ll full admit that is much closer than I originally thought, thank you for correcting me on that, I’m not sure I love your comparison of equilibrium to aurora as the “extra CD” but I’ll fully admit my original statement of WAR being underpowered defensively was wrong, it is still way too underpowered offensively but otherwise the problem is still mostly PLD

The fix to both PLD and WAR seems simple. Since it's raid burst phase for both that seems a bit lacking.

For Warrior its removing the 6.2 potency buff to their 1-2-3 rotation and applying it to their burst instead, Fellcleave, Primal Rend, and/or Inner Chaos. This alone should fix Warrior burst to be comparable, for how incredibly GCD heavy they are.

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too, thus making Req into Sword Valor the defacto PLD burst. And with how they changed the potencies in the req 6.2, being all together higher than FoF physical phase anyway, pure req opener seems like their intend now anyway, not to mention that full req into sword valor completion is 25 seconds, since skillspeed doesn't affect those gcds(which they really should change tbh, DRK's unmend too for that matter). Like Warrior, PLD's burst is also GCD heavy.
This might effectively kill Paladins physical phase, and just have it be Paladin's usual in-between theme, now a downtime, unless they of course change potencies between atonement and Req Holy Spirit again. TBH I wouldn't mind them reducing holy spirit potencies(or stacks), but still making sword valor the important burst phase, thus having PLD spending all but 1 req stack, then having delayed royal authority to then Confiture into Sword Valor, and have 3 oath stacks ready for the last seconds of FoF after Valor completes. This, at least to me would feel a very satisfying, since I really like how Atonement in rotations, and do feel they should stay as an important factor in PLD's burst rotation.

Paladin's Hallowed Ground and Cover though, they really need to add something else to these abilities, maybe have HG expend all or 50 gauge for CD reduction. And Cover really needs a mitigation application on their target, or some side benefit, so they aren't only a once in a blue moon clutch save on a healer to ensure Healer LB3. Paladin is the most advanced tank of them all, yet their payoff aren't really there at all.

Another topic, as discussed.
At this point it really seems like Tanks are turning into Mit vs Sustain Tanks, which usually wouldn't be a bad thing, if their burst damage in raid buff comp was comparable, and they synergized between each type better but they don't, their current balance makes Mit tanks not only the obvious best tanks in high end but also gave them the highest raid buffed burst damage too, which makes no sense.

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Moebious

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too, thus making Req into Sword Valor the defacto PLD burst. And with how they changed the potencies in the req 6.2, being all together higher than FoF physical phase anyway, pure req opener seems like their intend now anyway, not to mention that full req into sword valor completion is 25 seconds, since skillspeed doesn't affect those gcds(which they really should change tbh, DRK's unmend too for that matter). Like Warrior, PLD's burst is also GCD heavy.
This might effectively kill Paladins physical phase, and just have it be Paladin's usual in-between theme, now a downtime, unless they of course change potencies between atonement and Req Holy Spirit again. TBH I wouldn't mind them reducing holy spirit potencies(or stacks), but still making sword valor the important burst phase, thus having PLD spending all but 1 req stack, then having delayed royal authority to then Confiture into Sword Valor, and have 3 oath stacks ready for the last seconds of FoF after Valor completes. This, at least to me would feel a very satisfying, since I really like how Atonement in rotations, and do feel they should stay as an important factor in PLD's burst rotation.

Paladin's Hallowed Ground and Cover though, they really need to add something else to these abilities, maybe have HG expend all or 50 gauge for CD reduction. And Cover really needs a mitigation application on their target, or some side benefit, so they aren't only a once in a blue moon clutch save on a healer to ensure Healer LB3. Paladin is the most advanced tank of them all, yet their payoff aren't really there at all.

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I honestly hate your idea of allowing Fight or Flight apply to the magic phase, it actually kills any and all optimisation that those at higher levels of play enjoy Paladin for. So personally that's a hard pass from me.
SkS should affect recast timers for spells, this would reduce some of PLDs rotational drift out of raid buffs, and add a bit of QoL to DRK.

Spending gauge for cooldown reduction feels bad tbh, I think all four tank invuln recast timers should be revised and be balanced better than having this 1 minute apart currently, but Hallowed Ground definitely needs a flat cooldown reduction when looking at the other three in the recent raid environment.

your recommended Cover mitigation buff needs to not apply to the target, but to the PLD casting cover, as it helps to mitigate incoming dmg, I've said before but it should apply Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction to the PLD if they want to keep the 50 gauge cost.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

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DPS check wasn't as tight in DSR as it was for week 1 p8s. But still PLD and WAR are still behind DRK and GNB for output in DSR. PLD is also quite weak compared to the other three tanks during Phase 2 and Phase 5 especially due to the short uptime phases.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

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Let's ask the numbers. Oh...

https://i.imgur.com/s7mst4P.png

"Saving private paladin" meme has a lot of truth behind it.

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Originally Posted by Moebious

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too

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I'll echo Aodhans sentiments here in that I wouldn't want this, it's too drastic of a change to the overall feel of the jobs loop for something that could be fixed with a handful of potency tweaks. I can at least agree with Hallowed Ground though, Hallowed Grounds cooldown is too long compared to other invulns and the fact that we have a 'true' invuln doesn't really make up for it. Other tanks still get to shrug off death, quickly heal themselves back up, and be ready to do that again for the next buster.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I honestly hate your idea of allowing Fight or Flight apply to the magic phase, it actually kills any and all optimisation that those at higher levels of play enjoy Paladin for. So personally that's a hard pass from me.
SkS should affect recast timers for spells, this would reduce some of PLDs rotational drift out of raid buffs, and add a bit of QoL to DRK.
Spending gauge for cooldown reduction feels bad tbh, I think all four tank invuln recast timers should be revised and be balanced better than having this 1 minute apart currently, but Hallowed Ground definitely needs a flat cooldown reduction when looking at the other three in the recent raid environment.
Cover needs to not apply to the target, but to the PLD casting cover, as it helps to mitigate incoming dmg, I've said before but it should apply Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction to the PLD if they want to keep the 50 gauge cost.

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Understandable that you might hate it but you speak of optimization, as of 6.2, the opener has just become braindead Req into valor, and because the combo is 25 seconds long, which means you want final Valor to be within the current 2min raid buff meta, because its potency buff and its dot associated with it, don't even have time to apply GB before req/valor, in most buffs. Not to mention that FoF opener is completely dead in the water now(potencies).

With how they are turning or reworking all jobs into 2min burst of 20 seconds or so, PLD is now severely lacking in burst capability, because they got a 50 second damage phase(req/fof). So one field has to give, or the devs has to go back to making each job simply have their own cycles of bursts again, which once in a while align with each other. But that Meta comp will still be made out of of those even then. The PLD issue can't be solved without touching the 50 second rotation phases, because like I mentioned with reversing Warrior 1-2-3 potency buff, and putting them into their burst, it's sadly what PLD needs to get a buff as well.

HG, as it stands Hallowed Ground need a tradeoff, and I think we both can agree its trade off shouldn't be longer CD, with how it has become almost standard to have these invulns for specific tank mechanics now. Gauge is a lucrative resource for PLD but being able to utilize gauge for HG CD manipulation, would be a layer to PLD just being the more advanced Tank, I do agree HG needs a CD reduction just flat out, to maybe 6 mins, and then being able to shave off 2min cd by having 20 Gauge or something to spend on HG, it just needs a proper tradeoff. 50 Gauge is probably too high a cost, 20 would seem about the easy side, giving the PLD ability to give co-tank intervention, and during HG duration able to build just enough Gauge for Sheltron as it expires.

Cover being infused with Intervention to the target, would seem a decent bargain, since its got an outrageous CD attached to it as is. I assume it's Mitigation for the target, and cure regen potency for the PLD, or maybe instead of all damage it's conversion of 50-90%?

HG should really have a much lower CD. If PLDs could use it for two Tbs per fight like WARs can with Holmgang, then it would make players choose between doing more damage(DRK/GNB)or more defense(WAR/PLD). Obviously PLD/WAR need to have their dps increased by a reasonable amount. The lowest damage tank should deal 2-3% less than the highest. Not 7-10+%.

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Originally Posted by Moebious

Understandable that you might hate it but you speak of optimization, as of 6.2, the opener has just become braindead Req into valor, and because the combo is 25 seconds long, which means you want final Valor to be within the current 2min raid buff meta, because its potency buff and its dot associated with it, don't even have time to apply GB before req/valor, in most buffs. Not to mention that FoF opener is completely dead in the water now(potencies).

With how they are turning or reworking all jobs into 2min burst of 20 seconds or so, PLD is now severely lacking in burst capability, because they got a 50 second damage phase(req/fof). So one field has to give, or the devs has to go back to making each job simply have their own cycles of bursts again, which once in a while align with each other. But that Meta comp will still be made out of of those even then. The PLD issue can't be solved without touching the 50 second rotation phases, because like I mentioned with reversing Warrior 1-2-3 potency buff, and putting them into their burst, it's sadly what PLD needs to get a buff as well.

HG, as it stands Hallowed Ground need a tradeoff, and I think we both can agree its trade off shouldn't be longer CD, with how it has become almost standard to have these invulns for specific tank mechanics now. Gauge is a lucrative resource for PLD but being able to utilize gauge for HG CD manipulation, would be a layer to PLD just being the more advanced Tank, I do agree HG needs a CD reduction just flat out, to maybe 6 mins, and then being able to shave off 2min cd by having 20 Gauge or something to spend on HG, it just needs a proper tradeoff. 50 Gauge is probably too high a cost, 20 would seem about the easy side, giving the PLD ability to give co-tank intervention, and during HG duration able to build just enough Gauge for Sheltron as it expires.

Cover being infused with Intervention to the target, would seem a decent bargain, since its got an outrageous CD attached to it as is. I assume it's Mitigation for the target, and cure regen potency for the PLD, or maybe instead of all damage it's conversion of 50-90%?

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lol no it hasn't, optimised rotations are currently a Work in Progress, check the PLD Encounters channel of Balance Discord, it will probably be a little while before optimal rotations will be released. The "slowboi" rotation is to coincide with the 2.46+ GCD sets for PLD, but that is only BiS in a vacuum. The standard Fight or Flight opener currently lines up better with p6s for example. Paladin doesn't actually consider raid buffs, it does it's own thing to maximise usage on a fight by fight basis, and to minimise as much downtime as possible, since Paladin's rotation by nature leaks DPS if uptime is not maintained to a high degree.

Allowing Fight or Flight to affect magic damage is not going to get any approval from me at least as it'll as was already said ruin the loop for Paladin, and makes Paladin just as brain numbingly boring as the rest of the tanks, which is why I prefer they yah know buff the physical aspect of Paladin, Goring Blade's on hit potency needs buffing, Royal Authority's potency needs buffing, Atonement's potency needs buffing, can even buff both DoTs.

Granted if the current rotation was made to align perfectly on a 60second rotation at an attainable SkS threshold where it wouldn't cause egregious clipping of either Goring Blade or Blade of Valor's DoT, then sure maybe buff alignment would become more prevalent in Paladin's optimisation. Even with reducing Paladin's spells GCD recast via SkS, it still wouldn't align with a 60second, unless we continued to drop an Atonement during the unbuffed phase at a 2.4GCD. I guess if they put a hard recast time of 2 seconds recast on Atonement, unaffected by other GCD recasts, it would allow for spending all 3 stacks of Sword Oath during the unbuffed phase, but I guess keep Atonement as it is gives the option of being allowed a spare GCD to align with fights is also a nice thing to have.

I mean Paladin kinda always lacked burst, even in ShB, the only difference was that was used as the balancing measure in ShB. WAR and DRK had big burst but moderate sustain to compensate, while GNB and PLD had moderate burst, but strong sustain, which allowed for the tanks honestly to be well balanced. Much the same for Paladin in SB, it didn't have much burst, it was all about sustaining it's rotation, and managing to keep as much uptime as possible, especially with Sword Oath granting a second auto attack essentially.

As for WAR, it's still pretty far behind DRK and GNB, so it doesn't need reallocation, it can just be given potency buff to it's burst to bring it up also.

honestly, with how current fights allow for debuffs to pass through true invulns like Hallowed Ground and Superbolide, I honestly think their value has diminished greatly compared to what it was 2-4 years ago. If devs are going to actively design fights with means to circumvent invulns, then no, no trade-off is really necessary for Hallowed, if can still be the longest recast in comparison to the other 3 invulns, but a shorter recast is needed, 7 minutes in the current job balance is excessive. Especially with Paladin having the least amount of personal mitigation, being able to use invuln to supplement it's defensive kit even slightly better would be an improvement, on what it is now.

I was more meaning apply the Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction buffs to the Paladin that used Cover, as a means of being able to mitigate incoming damage similar to SB's Cover but now with a cost, as current Cover was excessively neutered in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Armandin

HG should really have a much lower CD. If PLDs could use it for two Tbs per fight like WARs can with Holmgang, then it would make players choose between doing more damage(DRK/GNB)or more defense(WAR/PLD). Obviously PLD/WAR need to have their dps increased by a reasonable amount. The lowest damage tank should deal 2-3% less than the highest. Not 7-10+%.

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With both DRK and GNB both being better defensively than PLD at present, you statement of, choice of damage versus defense is incorrect. By all accounts, with Paladin being the least defensive tank and the hardest tank to play at a high level (even though it will be argued that difficulty in playing job shouldn't affect DPS output), it should be outputting the most amount of DPS, which is kind of fair, as it shouldn't get punished for "utility" that is super niche, and personally I think utility like Clemency or a raise, should be punished by using it, having to spend excess MP and lose damage by spending a GCD to use said utility, not for simply possessing that ability.

Fights aren't designed around Cover, much like they aren't designed around Passage of Arms, those 2 skills are entirely optional abilities in fight design, otherwise it would shoe horn Paladin into a must have, which clearly isn't the case, with it's way below average pick rate. With very little use for Cover in the last 2 expansions, in it current neutered state, it's not a justifiable reason that Paladin possessing Cover, is worth keeping it's damage so low because "utility". Passage of Arms is very much a trade-off of Paladin missing an extra personal cooldown at this point.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Let's ask the numbers. Oh...

https://i.imgur.com/s7mst4P.png

"Saving private paladin" meme has a lot of truth behind it.

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DSR is funnily enough another case of Paladin getting punished just for being designed the way it is, so the low pick rate is no surprise. Loads of downtime where you just dodge mechanics, block not working while incapacitated.


The pick rate for GnB in DSR would probably be even higher if phase change timings weren't a complete nightmare for that job.

At this point PLD will just have to limp along until a full rework is done in 7.0

Sustain vs Mitigation tanks definately seem to be a thing where mitigation tanks will excel in 8 man content and sustain tanks will excel in 4 man content supposedly when realistically and ideally you would want all tanks to be on even footing and viable to the point where no tank has a significant advantage over the others to such a degree where they are barred from content.

GNB is honestly probably the best middle ground out of all the tanks. It's got good mitigation, some self-sustain, and good damage output. An ideal outcome would be for all tanks to operate like this, though obviously with some differences in playstyles to avoid the homogenization we're seeing now.

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Originally Posted by Derio

At this point PLD will just have to limp along until a full rework is done in 7.0

Sustain vs Mitigation tanks definately seem to be a thing where mitigation tanks will excel in 8 man content and sustain tanks will excel in 4 man content supposedly when realistically and ideally you would want all tanks to be on even footing and viable to the point where no tank has a significant advantage over the others to such a degree where they are barred from content.

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its just poor balancing imo. They necessitate a "weaker" defensive tool kit for more damage and honestly making everything an ogcd is just lazy imo. Talk to any healer that has to carry a DRK through the poison dot in P5S vs a WAR in week 1 and you will see a stark contrast. Obviously, if all your ogcds hit harder than fell cleave, are instant, and can be double weaved you will naturally do more damage. That's just fact.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

its just poor balancing imo. They necessitate a "weaker" defensive tool kit for more damage and honestly making everything an ogcd is just lazy imo. Talk to any healer that has to carry a DRK through the poison dot in P5S vs a WAR in week 1 and you will see a stark contrast. Obviously, if all your ogcds hit harder than fell cleave, are instant, and can be double weaved you will naturally do more damage. That's just fact.

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With the number of oGCD’s DRK has since the puddle is magical and they have two casts of oblation the only thing that pushes WAR over the edge in survivability is equilibrium, in those tankbuster situations where equilibrium is already on CD I’d much rather heal a DRK

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Originally Posted by Elizasylen

I see a lot of PFs locking Tank roles to DRK and GNB. Something wrong with PLD and WAR?

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They're compensating for their small [redacted] by making other people carry them, so they parrot what some third party website tells them about "job balance".

I recommend joining these parties as DRKs and GNBs and throwing the raid. It's what they deserve.