MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

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Originally Posted by Mosha

likely or no likely your still generalizing the whole group,

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Again, you are making an incorrect interpretation. You are also gaslighting here because the focus should be on the fact that there will be people who are excluded from completing the content if this were to go through.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Again, you are making an incorrect interpretation. You are also gaslighting here because the focus should be on the fact that there will be people who are excluded from completing the content if this were to go through.

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I've said what I've wanted to say and gave my opinions on OP's topic, have a nice night.

Eraden, your post could easily be interpreted the way Mosha read it. Maybe next time when someone misinterprets what you said instead of assuming malice/bad logic on their part, rephrase what you said.

In the case of this post:

"I didn't mean to come off as talking for all disabled players. I apologize. I meant that some disabled players may not be able to complete the MSQ if difficulty is increased."


As for the OP, given the intent of the MSQ is for people to have an easy time getting through it, it's a fine line between making things interesting for those players who prefer savage tier difficulty and keeping things easy enough to keep a vast majority of the player base from having issues progressing. I wouldn't mind things getting a little more difficult, but I don't know if we're at the point where any more difficult would cross the line or not.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m sorry but if the MSQ is pushing you to your legit limits maybe an MMO is not the type of genre for you, the MSQ is 90% of the games core content making it as simple as it is and even simpler is being selfish on the other end

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And here we have the classic elitist mindset on display, not a surprise given the poster. FFXIV already shows that an MMO can be exactly the kind of genre for such a person, simply by using the the approach it does of making the MSQ accessible to anyone, and then providing a plethora of additional optional content that is more difficult. It also contains the classic "I'm going to lie and not care" by claiming the MSQ is most of the game, when FFXIV in particular has an enormous amount of core content besides the MSQ (all of your trials, raids, etc. are still core content).

It's not "selfish" to make one important piece (the main story) easier and then provide a slew of more difficult optional content. It is selfish to insist that said one piece that is the main story and unlocks other content be made more difficult and exclude people when that more difficult content already exists. One view has a variety of content available for a variety of people. The other ignores that more difficult content already exists, and wants even the easier stuff made harder. Only one of those views is selfish.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Eraden, your post could easily be interpreted the way Mosha read it. Maybe next time when someone misinterprets what you said instead of assuming malice/bad logic on their part, rephrase what you said.

In the case of this post:

"I didn't mean to come off as talking for all disabled players. I apologize. I meant that some disabled players may not be able to complete the MSQ if difficulty is increased."


As for the OP, given the intent of the MSQ is for people to have an easy time getting through it, it's a fine line between making things interesting for those players who prefer savage tier difficulty and keeping things easy enough to keep a vast majority of the player base from having issues progressing. I wouldn't mind things getting a little more difficult, but I don't know if we're at the point where any more difficult would cross the line or not.

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If that is the case then yes, I could have worded the original post better. I did however in subsequent posts made it clear that I was not speaking for all elderly and disabled persons and yet those two particular posters kept doubling down on their initial assumptions. I can only assume at that point that malice was involved. It was especially troubling when one of them decided that maybe I should not be playing these games. I thought games like this were meant to be inclusive.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

If that is the case then yes, I could have worded the original post better. I did however in subsequent posts made it clear that I was not speaking for all elderly and disabled persons and yet those two particular posters kept doubling down on their initial assumptions. I can only assume at that point that malice was involved. It was especially troubling when one of them decided that maybe I should not be playing these games. I thought games like this were meant to be inclusive.

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It's also telling that they tried using that to divert the course of the entire discussion after realizing how many people pointed out the flaws and selfishness of their approach. They turned it into an attack on you instead of actually keeping it on topic, because they knew that topic was a losing battle.

I think that accessibility is a great thing, and I firmly believe the MSQ should be available to all who want to do it - for this reason I think Trusts are a great thing, because I have family members who have expressed interest in wanting to play the game but are scared of playing with others/want to play at their own pace/don't have the motor function.

I wouldn't mind the easy difficulty for casual content if the jobs weren't so damn boring in it though, and that's the crux of my issue I think - the design direction is "the engagement comes from the encounters, not the jobs" but that's paradoxical to how XIV is designed - a majority of the content in the game isn't endgame content, so for players who do like to optimize and challenge themselves, they're cut off from enjoying a majority of the content in the game. If jobs were engaging, I'd want to do casual content more. There's nothing worse than loading into something from Stormblood's MSQ or Heavensward's MSQ on SCH when helping friends and thinking "if this was back during Stormblood I'd be more engaged than I am now." and that makes me not bother doing it unless I'm helping friends.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It's also telling that they tried using that to divert the course of the entire discussion after realizing how many people pointed out the flaws and selfishness of their approach. They turned it into an attack on you instead of actually keeping it on topic, because they knew that topic was a losing battle.

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I mean, there is tough content in this game (savage tier) that I will never be able to participate in and that's ok. It gives something challenging for the better players to handle and I am happy for them. I just wish they (and by they I mean those who have been asking for things to be made harder) wouldn't keep trying to get the core MSQs made harder with no alternatives for those of us who already struggle from time to time.

This attitude is what ruined WoW. Heroic in WotLK fit my personality, goals, ability, playtime, and skill level exactly. I happily hopped around in Dalaran in Guild Chat until my queue popped . I got what I wanted. I got upgrades

There was higher-level stuff available, which many of my guildies got into.

When Mythic+ hit WoW it absolutely WRECKED queueing and max-level WoW as I had played it.

If you're pushing the bleeding edge of difficulty, I absolutely DO NO MIND that you have bigger shoulder pads, a flowier skirt, and +5 DPS over me.

From what I understand, Dark Souls is LOVELY this time of year.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It's also telling that they tried using that to divert the course of the entire discussion after realizing how many people pointed out the flaws and selfishness of their approach. They turned it into an attack on you instead of actually keeping it on topic, because they knew that topic was a losing battle.

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I've seen this tactic used elsewhere by some in the "Make the game harder for everyone!" crowd (not all do this, but some do) - try and redirect and turn discussions into attacks on ppl opposed to forced harder difficulty, especially when the majority of response to the calls for forced difficulty rises has been negative.

What I see getting the most positive response to is something I mentioned before - ways of adding in optional / opt-in difficulty for those who want it, while leaving the easier content there for those who want it. This has always garnered more support where I've seen it, but you still get ppl pushing for forced difficulty rises, insults tossed at anyone who disagrees with them, calls for ppl to leave if they are against forced difficulty hikes, etc. Although to be fair, I've also seen a fair share of hate being spewed at those who want harder content (including those pushing for opt-in / optional harder as well) by ppl as well. Though that is usually less of the case.

I'll say it again - I think that there should be optional harder options for those who want it. SE has shown that it is possible, even with XIV's scambled-egg coding.

- Add in an option for MSQ solo duties to be scaled up as well as down.

Right now there is scaling in place so that if someone fails a solo duty, the game will offer to let you tone the fight down to 'Easy' or 'Very Easy', adjusting the fight's hp, dmg, mechanics to various level's (although the mechanics part might only be for 1 specific EW duty, I'm not certain). Why not have another 1-2 options which scale the fights the other way? Add more dmg, hp, mechanics (if possible) to MSQ solo duties... but have it as an 'opt in' option in the player options menu, or offered to players when they start the duty.

- For dungeons / trials / etc add another Duty Roulette where everything is done at forced min ilvl & level.

There is a fairly big difference in being scaled down and min ilvl in dungeons. So having forced min ilvl would mean even high level players coming in would find it harder / more challenging than if they were just scaled down as usual. Make them equivalant of the lowest level allowed in the dungeon, with the lowest ilvl. Biggest downside to this is going to the be queue times - as many, many games have shown... p[layers interested in harder content are a small(er) portion of a player-base, so would have few players using this DR. Yet if they are willing to put up with the longer wait times, they will get their harder dungeons/trials/raids.

Or if min-ilvl doesn't work, have a separate DR for a buffed dungeon/trial/raid. Buff the hp, dmg, etc of mobs... but make ppl queue for it via a different queue (but obviously still count for MSQ/quests). Same issue as forced min ilvl - longer queue times as fewer will use this queue... but it gives you the harder fdungeon/trial/raid you want.

- Petition SE to spend money opening a World designed purely for the hardcore.

Make the world much harder, give open world mobs more hp, dmg, better skills, etc. Make it a choice for players who want everything to take longer, be harder, etc. If they want it, they can roll / transfer to this server where everything is harder... and clearly mark the world as HARD so no complaints about it being too hard. Completely optional, and won't effect those not interested in harder content (unless they foolishly go there).

Although considering how stingy SE is for XIV, I'd realistically give this 2 chances of happening: Buckley's and None.

- Add in 'debuff' food.

This is another option for ppl who want things harder. Add in food that can be bought from NPC's, that's clearly labelled as debuff food, that will lower your stats. Same as changing gear to lower gear really, but lets you meet dungeon/raid/trial ilvl requirements, while lowering your hp, dmg, healing, etc respectively. This way you can make things harder for yourself... although this will effect others because if your doing less dmg/healing and the only 1 with the debuff, then your group wil suffer. So maybe make it only active when solo, when in a solo msq duty, or if everyone in the group has the debuff on them.

Just some thoughts from me. Optional is the best way to go IMO, and likely the only thing that the XIV's team will likely work with anyways. they have shown that as soon as the common player hits a roadblock and starts complaining... they lower the roadblock (ie lower the difficulty: see The Steps of Faith for clear example of this). So why not push for optional / opt-in changes that won't put roadblocks in the way of others, while giving you the harder experience you want? Seems win-win to me.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

I've seen this tactic used elsewhere by some in the "Make the game harder for everyone!" crowd (not all do this, but some do) - try and redirect and turn discussions into attacks on ppl opposed to forced harder difficulty, especially when the majority of response to the calls for forced difficulty rises has been negative.

What I see getting the most positive response to is something I mentioned before - ways of adding in optional / opt-in difficulty for those who want it, while leaving the easier content there for those who want it.

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I like your approach to this issue, Kamatsu. I certainly would have no problems with SE adding an optional harder level for the better players.

While I admittedly haven't had the time to read each post in this thread, I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not sure that making MSQ content easier in order to not exclude older players is a good thing. Why would someone in their late teens or early 20s want to play a game that was also designed to accommodate for the reaction times of someone significantly older? I do think that having a set target demographic in terms of age is a good thing, especially in terms of difficulty level.

Difficulty is also indeed capable of being measured objectively by way of damage output and attack speed/frequency. There should be a good balance of both in order to make sure that content is fun and engaging. Again, it is probably to the game's benefit to tailor these aspects around a young adult demographic while providing the necessary accessibility tools in order to account for disabled players within that age range (text size, color options, and so on).

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

While I admittedly haven't had the time to read each post in this thread, I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not sure that making MSQ content easier in order to not exclude older players is a good thing. Why would someone in their late teens or early 20s want to play a game that was also designed to accommodate for the reaction times of someone significantly older? I do think that having a set target demographic in terms of age is a good thing, especially in terms of difficulty level.

Difficulty is also indeed capable of being measured objectively by way of damage output and attack speed/frequency. There should be a good balance of both in order to make sure that content is fun and engaging. Again, it is probably to the game's benefit to tailor these aspects around a young adult demographic while providing the necessary accessibility tools in order to account for disabled players within that age range (text size, color options, and so on).

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You should look into the actual demographic for MMOs. It's very short sighted to assume they need to cater to teens. The younger they are, the less likely they are to play and stick around. Even in the early days, it wasn't limited to teens. EQ1 likely has the oldest population with people playing into their 70s.

When I talk about reaction time, I'm talking more about ping, not age. Don't doubt that anyone older can still have decent reaction time if they've been engaging with computers for years.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

so for players who do like to optimize and challenge themselves, they're cut off from enjoying a majority of the content in the game.

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That's a minuscle part of the player base, they majority of the people who play hard content just look up the one true rotation, the proven and true guides for the fights and then just use automatic assistance to get told what they are doing wrong or outright helped during the fight.

The miraculous "but you could do it in Excel" is often brought up, but how often do people actually go that hard and tedious way instead of just the easy and lazy way.

You made the hard parts of the game easy for yourself because hard was too hard, now don't come and cry for the easy parts of the game to bmade harder.


And the teens aren't the ones with the nice big budget to spend on the game.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

That's a minuscle part of the player base, they majority of the people who play hard content just look up the one true rotation, the proven and true guides for the fights and then just use automatic assistance to get told what they are doing wrong or outright helped during the fight.

The miraculous "but you could do it in Excel" is often brought up, but how often do people actually go that hard and tedious way instead of just the easy and lazy way.

You made the hard parts of the game easy for yourself because hard was too hard, now don't come and cry for the easy parts of the game to bmade harder.


And the teens aren't the ones with the nice big budget to spend on the game.

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that's kind of inevitable people tend to optimize and then streamline pretty much everything and anything to make things more efficient and easy. that isn't even a community thing but a human one.

And the game should not be tuned for those people that streamline and optimize outside of the game's parameters and the info you're supposed to have versus the information you are supposed not to have.

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Petition SE to spend money opening a World designed purely for the hardcore.

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Access to be subscribed to via Mog Station. If it's not profitable on its own, it gets turned off. You are asking for a large amount of development and tester team time that does not benefit the main game and wild even detract resources from it

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

And the game should not be tuned for those people that streamline and optimize outside of the game's parameters

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What does that even mean? exploits like Urgamax?

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

the info you're supposed to have versus the information you are supposed not to have.

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I mean ACT just pulls from the log file what can be read under the battle tab. yes, you can dump it into excel and make a parser that way

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While I admittedly haven't had the time to read each post in this thread, I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not sure that making MSQ content easier in order to not exclude older players is a good thing. Why would someone in their late teens or early 20s want to play a game that was also designed to accommodate for the reaction times of someone significantly older? I do think that having a set target demographic in terms of age is a good thing, especially in terms of difficulty level.

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The average gamer is now in their 30's. Older in fact. Age demographics now point to gamers being well over that age, with a SIGNIFICANT percentage well into their 40's. No games company in the modern age anywhere wants to target a specific age demographic, as thats a fast way to bankruptcy.

Niche gaming has a very small window of success.

Games engineered for teens is old, outdated, is again the same idiot model Blizzard is using.,.and we can all see where THAT has gotten them. You really have zero idea as to how games are designed and quite frankly, the fact that you didnt know that the age demographic worldwide now caters to that older age bracket is in itself telling of how little you actually know. Many games do gather data, some dont where the age demographic is concerned.

Games companies are well aware of just how radically the entire industry has evolved, and are making changes to core design to take advantage of that fact. They HAVE to. game that caters to a very small demographic will have a small playerbase and a small revenue stream, which wont even BEGIN to recoup the costs of developing said game.

Fact: Demographics drive game design philosophy.

I know Blizzard doesnt, I am not sure if SE does but it would surprise me if they didnt have at least a ballpark estimate...see, Aveyond, I used to alpha and beta test for games companies...and not being an expert of course, i had a very good look at the complexities of MMO design

Dont believe me? "Oh he is making this up"

https://financesonline.com/video-gam...ic-statistics/

and here

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There are 3.24 billion gamers across the world.
The average gamer is 35 years old.
50% of Europeans play video games.
Over 1.7 billion people are PC gamers.
46% of American gamers are female.
Asia is the biggest gaming market, with 1.48 billion video game players.

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More precisely, 14% of all gamers are between 35 and 44, and 12% are between 45 and 54. Even people over 65 play games.

So, if you think that someone who is 40 years old is too old to play games, think twice.

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..and you want SE to design a game to EXCLUDE that age group?

How much research into the gaming industry have you actually done?

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Difficulty is also indeed capable of being measured objectively by way of damage output and attack speed/frequency. There should be a good balance of both in order to make sure that content is fun and engaging. Again, it is probably to the game's benefit to tailor these aspects around a young adult demographic while providing the necessary accessibility tools in order to account for disabled players within that age range (text size, color options, and so on).

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You are so far wrong it isnt funny. This is 2022, not 2004.

The days of MMO and other gaming being for pimply faced teenies is dead and gone.

Games companies, design paradigms and parameters, content availability and accessibility have evolved to meet that market. To paraphrase from older times..adapt or perish.

Kids dont pay $100.00 for a new Nier game, adults over 30 do. Games today arent even themed for teens, with a VAST amount of that content adult oriented...one of the most graphic examples being at the beginning of Shadowbringers.

Tesleen's fate.

Games are not for teens exclusively anymore, games are catered to, targeted and marketed for the adult population, and will continue to do so. FF 14 is a story based game, the MSQ is not meant to be, is not designed to be, and never will be meant to be a continual brick wall where "only the worthy" get to see it...nor should it ever be so.

I submit you really are woefully uninformed as to what the industry is these days, I seriously suggest you go find out.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The average gamer is now in their 30's. Older in fact. Age demographics now point to gamers being well over that age, with a SIGNIFICANT percentage well into their 40's. No games company in the modern age anywhere wants to target a specific age demographic, as thats a fast way to bankruptcy.

Niche gaming has a very small window of success.

Games engineered for teens is old, outdated, is again the same idiot model Blizzard is using.,.and we can all see where THAT has gotten them. You really have zero idea as to how games are designed and quite frankly, the fact that you didnt know that the age demographic worldwide now caters to that older age bracket is in itself telling of how little you actually know. Many games do, some dont where the age demographic data is gathered, I know Blizzard doesnt, I am not sure if SE does but it would surprise me if they didnt have at least a ballpark estimate...see, Aveyond, I used to alpha and beta test for games companies...and not being an expert of course, i had a very good look at the complexities of MMO design

Doint believe me?

https://financesonline.com/video-gam...ic-statistics/

and here



..and you want SE to design a game to EXCLUDE that age group? How much research into the gaming industry have you actually done?



You are so far wrong it isnt funny. This is 2022, not 2004.

The days of MMO and other gaming being for pimply faced teenies is dead and gone. Games companies, design paradigms and parameters, content availability and accessibility have evolved to meet that market. To paraphrase from older times..adapt or perish.

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I don't think using those statistics is a good idea since they're very broad and include smartphone and Facebook-type games in the data, what wouldn't be relevant to games like FFXIV since it's a lot more niche than those statistics cover?

What those statistics tell me is that FFXIV should be a mobile game with heavy MTX to attract the largest demographic possible. I don't think you're advocating for that.

All I want is for the MSQ to be a bit more challenging and engaging closer like how it used to be, thanks.

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I don't think using those statistics is a good idea

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Too bad. That survey and others like are standard internationally, that demographic is worldwide.

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68 per cent of Australians play interactive games, and of this game playing population: 78 per cent were aged 18 years or older, 71 per cent were working age (18–64 years), 23 per cent were aged 50 and over, and seven per cent were aged 65 years or older, the average age was 33 years.

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New Zealand

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The average age of the New Zealand gamer is 34 years old. 43% of New Zealanders aged 65 and over now play video games, compared to only 32% in 2013. Games are not only enjoyed by kids and teenagers – 78% of the game playing population is aged 18 years or older. Nearly half (48%) of the gaming population is female

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Philippines

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...gamers-by-age/

Russia

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Among Russian video gamers aged from 16 to 29 years, the majority played online games more often than offline games, according to a survey from July 2021. To compare, among those between 30 and 44 years old, 40 percent of respondents played online and offline games with the same frequency. In the age category of 60 years and older, offline games were the most popular.

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All I want is for the MSQ to be a bit more challenging and engaging closer like how it used to be, thanks.

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The posts I quoted from you say otherwise.

Your words:

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While I admittedly haven't had the time to read each post in this thread, I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not sure that making MSQ content easier in order to not exclude older players is a good thing.

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You really need to go read up on where the industry is now as opposed to nearly 20 years ago. Excluding a demographic that makes up the majority on online gamers is an act of lunacy..and commercial suicide.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Too bad. That survey and others like are standard internationally, that demographic is worldwide.



New Zealand



Philippines

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...gamers-by-age/

Russia

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https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-00027...m-t500x500.jpg

You just quoting statistics not interpreting them, FFXIV isn't available on smartphones, tablets, inbrowser or even Xbox and switch. so I imagine your statistics would shift dramatically when you don't include those platforms.

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FFXIV isn't available on smartphones, tablets, inbrowser or even Xbox and switch.

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Not yet, you mean. Its coming.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...x_one_version/

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Naoki Yoshida: There are no obstacles for developing the Xbox version. We were able to undertake development and provide our service thanks to the immense efforts that Phil has invested. For that we are truly grateful!

The sole factors are the workload and the order of steps. Now when it comes to the Xbox version, there’s unfortunately not much I can say presently but just that we cannot work on all the steps simultaneously and need to follow the order for proceeding with these things. Since we’re currently involved in the development of Endwalker and preparing the PS5 version to follow on from the title’s service on PS4, it’d be appreciated if we can return to touch upon the Xbox version once things have settled!

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Oh and

https://fenixbazaar.com/2017/05/16/leaked-microsoft-research-reveals-the-average-xbox-one-owner/

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The average age of the Xbox One owner is 33, unsurprising considering the average age of gamers generally hovering in the late-20 to mid-30s range, depending on the region.

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:p:p

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Not yet, you mean Its coming.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...x_one_version/

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This might have changed. With Bethesda(a month after this Q & A) and soon Activision Blizzard now owned by Microsoft. It would be sweet if it could get 3 MMOs, but it would be a little weird especially since the Eidos Montreal's founder stated Sony is interest in buying Square Enix to counter the acquisition of Activision Blizzard and Bethesda.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Not yet, you mean. Its coming.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...x_one_version/



Oh and

https://fenixbazaar.com/2017/05/16/l...box-one-owner/



:p:p

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...76/152/7e3.png
are you doing this on purpose to me? is this god's punishment for me for eating too much junk food recently?

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Originally Posted by Mosha

I don't think using those statistics is a good idea since they're very broad and include smartphone and Facebook-type games in the data, what wouldn't be relevant to games like FFXIV since it's a lot more niche than those statistics cover?

What those statistics tell me is that FFXIV should be a mobile game with heavy MTX to attract the largest demographic possible. I don't think you're advocating for that.

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Even mobile games can be challenging though.

I actually know someone that quit the game here because MSQ solo duties were too hard. And this is after having a housemate do some of them for them.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...x_one_version/

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keeping hope alive I see xD

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Originally Posted by Imora

Even mobile games can be challenging though.

I actually know someone that quit the game here because MSQ solo duties were too hard. And this is after having a housemate do some of them for them.

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I mean sure there are examples of such. but my point was that data includes a lot of people who only care about candy crush and have no interest in MMORPGs making it a bad argument to use when talking about ffxiv.

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are you doing this on purpose to me? is this god's punishment for me for eating too much junk food recently?

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Mosha, its fine. I got involved in the alpha / beta stuff back in the days before the first Voodoo cards even came out, so its kinda been something I keep tabs with over the years. I come from a time before DOS 6.22 even existed, if thats any consolation.

This was my first computer

http://interface-experience.org/site.../01/IE-002.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mosha

I mean sure there are examples of such. but my point was that data includes a lot of people who only care about candy crush and have no interest in MMORPGs making it a bad argument to use when talking about ffxiv.

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We agree on that, Mosha. I was talking more on a broad basis..mobile gaming is kinda a separate market and yeah there is some wiggle room.

I concede the point.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

The OP is demonstrating a classic elitist mindset. MSQs are too easy for the OP so ramp up the difficulty of the MSQs regardless of whether or not others are adversely affected and/or even excluded. This is classic elitism at its finest. Making the game harder so that only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate. You don't have to be at the top of the game charts to be elitist. You only need to be willing to exclude others below you.

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This is a ridiculous exaggeration.

While I disagree with aspect of the OP's post, your comparison to Savage is jumping to the opposite extreme. We could see an uptick in the MSQ content difficulty, or casual content in general, without it being anywhere close to Savage. Right now, the MSQ and most dungeon content is borderline fail-proof. There's a decently large middle ground between so comically easy it takes effort to fail and Savage. Whether you agree with the OP or not, their stance is moving closer to that middle ground where dungeons can actually hurt you compared to now where a single pulling tank is quite literally useless. None of that is elitism either because the OP gives examples of content casual players have already cleared en masse. The only players "excluded" would be those who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear.

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None of that is elitism either because the OP gives examples of content casual players have already cleared en masse. The only players "excluded" would be those who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear.

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Reread his post...OP wanted to exclude people over a certain age group.

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While I admittedly haven't had the time to read each post in this thread, I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not sure that making MSQ content easier in order to not exclude older players is a good thing. Why would someone in their late teens or early 20s want to play a game that was also designed to accommodate for the reaction times of someone significantly older? I do think that having a set target demographic in terms of age is a good thing, especially in terms of difficulty level.

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Wanting to exclude people because they dont meet his "standards" isnt elitist...?

Yes..yes it is.

There was also another commenter in another thread that bluntly said disabled people shouldnt even play.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Reread his post...OP wanted to exclude people over a certain age group.



Wanting to exclude people because they dont meet his "standards" isnt elitist...?

Yes..yes it is.

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Now re-read mine; specifically where I said say, they OP gave examples. Let's look at those, shall we?

"Titania
• All 3 NieR raids
• All 3 Ivalice raids
• Delubrum Reginae"

Titania is far from difficult. She simply can kill people expecting a complete faceroll.

While partly subjective, the Nier raids are among the easiest introduced. Yoshida even acknowledged as much, saying they were designed to be easier than normal because they wanted to appeal towards Nier fans potentially unfamiliar with FFXIV.

That leaves the Ivalice series and Delubrum. The former is more or less average in difficulty. The bosses can kill you, which is more than one can say about any dungeon boss. Nevertheless, they aren't walls even in their heyday. The exception being Thunder God Cid before the massive nerfs that completely neutered him. Delubrum, on the other hand, is where I'd disagree with the OP. Those bosses have more intricate designs and mechanics better fit for Normal modes.

All in all, these examples largely don't lineup with excluding the vast majority of players given it's all content that currently exists and has been cleared by a significant amount of players, especially Titania.

I willingly concede on difficulty.

Ivalice Im not really a fan of, I preferred the CT series tbh in terms of mechanics etc plus its fun ( I wish we had more to do inside the tower truthfully, explore more of its innards and maybe more lore what is can do and why...) , Ivalice is okay but not my favourite.

Nier, yes I agree..but the last one was somewhat..annoying....with some of the mechanics..then again, maybe thats more of a case to do with me needing more practice than the mechanics themselves..so yes, Ill agree on that as well.

Good point.

Titania is the exception as it IS an MSQ raid (Ill add here that Nier and Ivalice arent tied to MSQ...Ivalice is to unlock Bozja , with the counterpoint Bozja is NOT part of the main MSQ...I think you see what I mean on that one.

The key element here is we NEED to separate what is in the MSQ as opposed to what is not...maybe thats where the comparison falls over, Id like your thoughts on that. Delubrum is again not main MSQ, its part of Bozja and is optional content if you are after a relic weapon....sooooo..Delubrum vs say Dying Gasp as a contrast?

MSQ on its own should NOT be a bloody brick wall, the OPs attitudes on older players actually grates on me..I was actually astounded that ANYONE is still stuck in a 2004 mindset..but I am sure he means well, bless his gentle, kind heart.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is a ridiculous exaggeration.

While I disagree with aspect of the OP's post, your comparison to Savage is jumping to the opposite extreme. We could see an uptick in the MSQ content difficulty, or casual content in general, without it being anywhere close to Savage. Right now, the MSQ and most dungeon content is borderline fail-proof. There's a decently large middle ground between so comically easy it takes effort to fail and Savage. Whether you agree with the OP or not, their stance is moving closer to that middle ground where dungeons can actually hurt you compared to now where a single pulling tank is quite literally useless. None of that is elitism either because the OP gives examples of content casual players have already cleared en masse. The only players "excluded" would be those who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear.

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There is a considerable amount of content that bridges the gap between the MSQs and Savage tier content. There is no need to force the MSQs to be harder if you are looking for any other sort of challenge. It already exists. MSQs, more specifically the trials, are NOT easy for me to do. Titania was quite difficult for me to get done. Does that mean that in your eyes I should be excluded because I don't want to put in any effort? Well newsflash: by the time I got finished doing Titania I was shaking like a leaf. I was trying my damnedest to do everything right and barely got it done. I have a few friends who also have difficulty getting the trials done. But in your eyes we are people "who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear". I am going to chalk this up to you being grossly ignorant of what people like myself go through when playing this game, rather than you trying to outright libel me. I am hoping that you are not that malicious. The simple fact is there will be people who will be excluded from this game if the MSQs are made harder and not all of those people are lazy like you seem to suggest.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

What an ridiculous conclusion that is. It is a FACT that some people will be excluded if the MSQ content is made harder. For some of us, the MSQ content is already at our limits. People WILL be excluded if the content is made harder. And your argument is....that's good? As long as you get your challenging content it's ok to exclude some of us? What a selfish person you are! There is already challenging content for you. Leave the MSQs alone so that more of us can play.

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They're saying they don't like being thrown under your generalized umbrella of what you believe those with disabilities to be capable of or uncapable of. They dislike you using them as a part of your argument as you're dehumanizing them.

MSQ in FFXIV has never really been challenging though. it's the appropriate difficulty when you take into account the target audience for the MSQ, honestly.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

They're saying they don't like being thrown under your generalized umbrella of what you believe those with disabilities to be capable of or uncapable of. They dislike you using them as a part of your argument as you're dehumanizing them.

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Good God are you ever trying to reach. Everything in your post is a complete fabrication and it's disgusting. I made no generalizations of the kind you suggest. There will definitely be some people who will be excluded from MSQs. Not all people with disabilities or who are aged fall into this category and I never made such a statement. I was referring to people such as myself and others that I know of who have similar difficulties playing this game. Do you even understand English? Do you not understand that some of us does not mean ALL of us? Again with the strawman arguments and gaslighting. If you want to call out someone for making a sweeping generalization, you should be calling out ForteNightshade for claiming that the only people who would be excluded by making MSQs harder would be those "who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear". And for you to claim that I am USING people who are aged and/or have disabilities and dehumanizing them is a bloody lie and an insult. I KNOW of other people like myself who struggle to play these games. None of them want to give up playing. None of us consider any of us to be less than human. You are the only one here who is tossing out this idiotic argument.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Good God are you ever trying to reach. Everything in your post is a complete fabrication and it's disgusting.

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ah yes my own emotions are a fabrication.