Revert summoner to 5.55 while re-reworking it please?

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

Unfortunately, if Squenix doesn't introduce leviathan, ramuh, and shiva into the mix by next expansion, you can consider the SMN class good as dead since they'll be too hyper focused trying to "correct" this mistake until it's so broken that barely anyone will want to touch it. We'll see what happens, and the comments and threads to follow with it. I can hardly wait.

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I know right. I worry because leviathan is huge lol and it seems they using the near original sizes of the primals. They will really have to shrink Leviathan down a bit.

first, I prefer the ew smn over the shb it's not perfect but at least it has an order to it. As for the other 3 summons it kind of shocking they didn't perhaps that what they will do in 7.0 have garuda, titan, and ifrit after bahamut and ram, levi , shiva after phoenix. with move sets similar to the first set. Also, any person who said we need choices have you look at this game every time there have been choice options it always been mid max to the extreme where one way became The Way eliminating the "choices." As for the no 29 -80 progession it there just you not getting a new button every few levels. If you look at most the other jobs, they are not getting many more button either. I'm guessing this will be the way of things going forward as controllers can only hold 32 buttons.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Weird saying everyone hates it but then a couple sentences later say there is a frequency of use. There is. But maybe it’s because people enjoy it. People don’t okay classes they hate once they are done leveling them.

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People are lazy. Given the lower satisfaction rating it does not seem likely that it’s played from enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

People are lazy. Given the lower satisfaction rating it does not seem likely that it’s played from enjoyment.

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Or people like playing it. That it’s not complicated enough for likely a huge minority of players on the complaining (err dps) forums is irrelevant.

Almost every class in this game is easy to play. If it’s that unsatisfying people could play any of the other easy classes.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Almost every class in this game is easy to play. If it’s that unsatisfying people could play any of the other easy classes.

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Or, you know, they could have maintained the oGCDs and strengthened the core mechanics of the job while adding the new stuff instead of wiping it out. (And that has nothing to do with Bio and Miasma btw... to appease a certain someone's weak heart).

There's hard, intuitive, easy and then there's healer rotations and then there's new summoner.

The DPS role exists solely to do damage, there is no justification in any of them having a rotation simpler than any and every healer - particularly when the reasoning behind lobotomising the healer role was to encourage the players to focus on the responsibilities of that role (healing for those hard of thinking). Whether or not the devs line of reasoning had any basis in the reality of their game design is neither here nor there.

It doesn't really make sense that they completely lobotomised the carbuncle either. I'd be fine with having dots removed if they improved upon pet actions (since Summoner is supposed to be the PET DPS) but now the rook turret/Automaton Queen is more of a pet than our carbuncles and egis.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Or people like playing it. That it’s not complicated enough for likely a huge minority of players on the complaining (err dps) forums is irrelevant.

Almost every class in this game is easy to play. If it’s that unsatisfying people could play any of the other easy classes.

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This ^

I play SMN quite a bit and often see others queue up for roulettes... SAM as well. It really is a niche group of people that are just grumpy and inflexible.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

This ^

I play SMN quite a bit and often see others queue up for roulettes... SAM as well. It really is a niche group of people that are just grumpy and inflexible.

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Also calling people "lazy" and other disparaging names here while acknowledging the higher play rate means the rework was a success. People are playing the class. Pretending that they know what is going through other people's heads and claiming they play the class while hating every minute of it is absurd.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I made the thread like you suggested - thanks for the advice there, there's been some interesting discussion.

Why not let summoner retain its identity in this game and have evoker added with a more realised set of summons? In ff3 at least, evoker had multiple possible actions/summon with summoner being limited to one admittedly typically stronger cast. This would allow the evoker to pivot to a more supportive role if needed or focus on damage (Assuming they don't keep the random selection for an unknown reason).

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A discount poison mage with only 3 pets that have gone unchanged since ARR will never hold the title of Summoner again. What this class needs now is to follow through and commit to its namesake with more abilities and a fleshed out kit. I will gladly cede to you Shb SMN in the form of a Necromancer, but calling that a Summoner was one of the worst things to ever happen in this game.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Also calling people "lazy" and other disparaging names here while acknowledging the higher play rate means the rework was a success. People are playing the class. Pretending that they know what is going through other people's heads and claiming they play the class while hating every minute of it is absurd.

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I think an enormous issue is that after having put up with the bad controls and glitches of Shb SMN, many of us who do enjoy the rework are glad to be rid of an experience that felt more like fighting against a keyboard than fighting against a boss. However there are people who prided themselves on manouvering these things and would gladly tell everyone else to just get good instead of realizing that something was clearly broken here.

I just want to not have to do weird things to play the job I like.

That, and for goodness sake add the remaining pantheon. A level 20 FFXI Summoner has a level 90 FFXIV Summoner beat in every capacity, from choices of summon to number of abilities. Remedy this now.

I know there's a non-zero number of people who hate every minute of playing it yet still play it because that number includes me. My alt has a summoner because I enjoyed playing it in shadowbringers it, and I now do unreal with it because there's always already a dragoon and I don't trust random healers in the slightest. We can also look at the data which clearly shows a high play rate with a low enjoyment rate, indicative of people either locking themselves into it with savage drops and limited tomes or people playing it for reasons other than enjoyment.

I will not pretend to know what kind of content you take it into or with what degree of competence you play, but I see no reason to weigh your anecdotes more heavily than a survey of nearly 3000.

Back in Shadowbringers the content I enjoyed was mostly the extreme trials, and other more widespread content like Bozja, etc. I just wanted my dragons. I realized very early on that it wasn't going to happen with a job that was as laden with as many problems as Shb SMN. So I did them as Red Mage and Dancer instead.

The main thing retaining people now is almost certainly its thematic accuracy and spectacle, and despite the lack of buttons this may come as a surprise but there are people who like having a rotation with natural flow to it. It really is just that simple.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I think an enormous issue is that after having put up with the bad controls and glitches of Shb SMN, many of us who do enjoy the rework are glad to be rid of an experience that felt more like fighting against a keyboard than fighting against a boss. However there are people who prided themselves on manouvering these things and would gladly tell everyone else to just get good instead of realizing that something was clearly broken here.

I just want to not have to do weird things to play the job I like.

That, and for goodness sake add the remaining pantheon. A level 20 FFXI Summoner has a level 90 FFXIV Summoner beat in every capacity, from choices of summon to number of abilities. Remedy this now.

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Exactly how I felt having played every version of Summoner since ARR. I never had LESS fun on the class than I did during ShB. Tons of people hated the design of the class at the time with very few defenders other than those who felt that they were more "skilled" (lol) than others for dealing with it.

I think I disagree about the rotation having a flow to it - it's kind of hard to articulate, but as they are the summons get in the way of building momentum for the mandated 2m burst. I suppose one way of looking at it is summoner always feels like it's in a burst phase, but without the depth to back it up. This seems to be a fundamental issue with how summoner is currently designed - central enough that the job would need re-rebuilt from the ground up to sufficiently address. The addition of more summons, while perhaps aesthetically nice, could not help unless they add a mechanic of each primal affecting the next. This wouldn't really solve the problem with the demis or complete lack of anything to manage either though. The gauge doesn't show anything worthwhile on - it's more a countdown for the number of remaining casts than anything else, and with energy drain pretty much being a part of the demis, that's merely an afterthought now too. Even warrior with its eternally simplifying fell cleave gauge has the infuriate recast reduction to account for.

Generally the rotation is not quite the same as paladin, which despite its very flat damage curve, manages to have enough depth in both might and magic phases to largely carry the gameplay or samurai* where midare setsugekka doesn't wear out its welcome despite the frequency of casts across its rotation. There's nothing quite like summoner's, which tragically is not a compliment in this case.

I sincerely believe there hasn't been something this badly concieved in the game since 1.0.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I think I disagree about the rotation having a flow to it - it's kind of hard to articulate, but as they are the summons get in the way of building momentum for the mandated 2m burst. I suppose one way of looking at it is summoner always feels like it's in a burst phase, but without the depth to back it up. This seems to be a fundamental issue with how summoner is currently designed - central enough that the job would need re-rebuilt from the ground up to sufficiently address. The addition of more summons, while perhaps aesthetically nice, could not help unless they add a mechanic of each primal affecting the next. This wouldn't really solve the problem with the demis or complete lack of anything to manage either though. The gauge doesn't show anything worthwhile on - it's more a countdown for the number of remaining casts than anything else, and with energy drain pretty much being a part of the demis, that's merely an afterthought now too. Even warrior with its eternally simplifying fell cleave gauge has the infuriate recast reduction to account for.

Generally the rotation is not quite the same as paladin, which despite its very flat damage curve, manages to have enough depth in both might and magic phases to largely carry the gameplay or samurai* where midare setsugekka doesn't wear out its welcome despite the frequency of casts across its rotation. There's nothing quite like summoner's, which tragically is not a compliment in this case.

I sincerely believe there hasn't been something this badly concieved in the game since 1.0.

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Except there was, and that was Shb SMN. I'm sorry that this sort of gameplay loop doesn't appeal to you, but it is both thematically more on point and what people want is more additions that make sense in the context of the job we have now. Add an Elder Primal gauge to that builds up as we do things. Add 1-off primals that do their attack/effect and leave. Add new gems with new twists on their Astral Flow and cast timers to their rite spells. Logical solutions.

Not reversions.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

This ^

I play SMN quite a bit and often see others queue up for roulettes... SAM as well. It really is a niche group of people that are just grumpy and inflexible.

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I think both yes and no.

I do think people on this forum exaggerate to rather absurd levels and are just generally addicted to outrage and tbh I actually think a lot of them actually think it's fun to be upset.
I do get the sense that people just enjoy being upset about things it's like they get a kick out of it and they turn to hyperbole and you can see it whenever people read a billion things into every word Yoshi-P says that he didn't say.
But people will take something harmless he said and spin it into whatever the fotm issue they're mad about is and twist it to be something spiteful as if Yoshi-P and the devs hate us or something it's just ridiculous...
People do this outside of FFXIV too.

I do think there is truth tho to the notion that most people think SMN is lacking and a bit boring and repetitive.
But most people I don't think have these overwhelmingly extreme negative thoughts about it to the point of absurdity.
It's the same with the Kaiten situation too, I don't think most people genuinely believe that it '' ruined SAM ''.
That's a very extreme take.
I think most SAM players are still playing it and having fun even if they're unhappy about it.

I do think it might be true that a majority of people don't feel that SMN is where it should be.
But I don't believe that the most extreme takes you see on this forum represent that majority.

They have never done, and will never do a full revert of a job.

You have to get used to the idea the endwalker summoner is and will remain brain dead,

not enough spells, zero management, an etherflow system that doesn't match with the new gameplay,
I think the concept as a whole is interesting, but the summoner is as incomplete as a level 60 job, and some choices about how spells work are extremely bad,
honestly, they should add a resource management system, I don't think dots revert are a solution, even if I regret their losses a little.

They should seriously work on it for 7.0 and fix its biggest flaws, and this absolutely useless carbuncle is heresy.

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

This forum has turn into whiners, nothing wrong with summoner now. more primal and tune up maybe.

Even if it did 1,000,000 dps and had every primal as a summon it would not address the fundamental issue with the job. Specifically that there's nothing there. Even stormblood machinist had gameplay, endwalker summoner is just barren beneath the animations.

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Originally Posted by remiff

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

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These are all good solutions, especially the proposed handling of Phoenix and Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by PrincessLily

This forum has turn into whiners, nothing wrong with summoner now. more primal and tune up maybe.

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Nothing prevents to admit that it is impossible to return to the old summoner but that the summoner needs some modifications of his system to make it a little more thoughtful and complete than the current one,add summon if they do not have a new thoughtful mechanism and innovative,
is nothing more than to respond to the fantasies of the players, but if it is without flavor there is no point in adding an summon.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Summoner is currently fundamentally broken which is especially impressive given how little there is there.

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No, it's not. Saying "thing is broken" is not an argument. HOW is it broken? What SPECIFICALLY is broken? And note these have to be things that DON'T WORK, not preferences that you don't enjoy. "It's too simple" is not broken, that's just it not matching your preferences. WAR is simple, but not broken. BRD is simple, but not broken. MCH is simple and kind of broken because it has nothing to make up for its lack of utility and its lack of damage doesn't do so sufficiently...but even it's not REALLY broken, the community just doesn't value what it has as worth taking one over a DNC or BRD. Likewise, SMN isn't broken, either.

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1) What is FFXIV as we know it but an admission of a horrible mistake?

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No, that's ARR. FFXIV as a whole is not an admission of constant mistakes.

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2) Caster potencies remained largely unchanged if that's what you're referring to? Else you're saying that the issue is not the issue.

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Old SMN did high DPS, usually top 5, often top 3 if played well, and could out DPS a lot of BLM and some SAM players in the hands of a skilled master. Current SMN is not tuned to that, so if we got old SMN's rotation but balanced to do new SMN's damage (that is, if SMN's overall damage was unchanged), you'd be playing the hardest Job in the game but doing the functional damage of a MCH.

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3) see 2)

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See above.

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4) This doesn't seem to be a point with any substance.

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No, but that wasn't a rebuttal with any substance. The point has substance, you just have no counter to it.

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5) Hopefully they'd have made something that has gameplay, specifically gameplay in keeping with the summoner we've had for the last decade so the change wouldn't be as bad.

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And if they haven't?

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6) If they'd done it properly then it wouldn't be necessary.

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But that's not the world we live in, now is it?

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New summoner does scarcely better than mch damage, old summoner was an actual caster and did appropriate damage for such a role, ie upper half of the dps.

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Exactly. So pasting old SMN into new SMN's spot today would make it a worthless Job no one would use unless they ALSO reverted the damage and balanced its damage to be boosted. Keep in mind it has no 81-90 level abilities for OLD SMN, meaning it wouldn't be getting the potency boosts and higher burst finishers that everyone else has. Thus it would be doing less damage than RDM while being harder to play than BLM.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

What part of SMN's direction is fine? Care to specify? All I see is a set in stone rotation of the ruin spam everyone apparently hated, with different colours every 15s. Please elucidate specifically what part of newSMN is a good direction to take the job, without diverging into fanciful imaginations about where it could go. I am sincerely curious about what an answer would be.

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Wait, what? If you're spamming Ruin, you're doing it wrong. You should only even cast Ruin MAYBE twice per minute, which is less than old SMN did. The variations while under Primal effects are not Ruin, don't cast like Ruin, and don't work like Ruin. Garuda's are instant casts with a reduced GCD. Titan's are instant cast with an oGCD to weave between them, and Ifrit's is a GCD cast longer than the GCD itself. NOT ONE OF THESE is like Ruin. And if you're going to say "That's just Ruin with a different flavor", then Miasma, Bio, and Egi Assault were "just Ruin with a different flavor", too.

There are arguments to be made, but SMN is "fine" right now. It's not perfect (but no Job is) and it's not interesting to people that like doing things like managing a buffet of DoT timers and CD buttons. But that isn't what makes a Job "fine". It's "fine" because all the pieces work together (unlike old SMN), the combat flow is understandable and works, the things that are supposed to buff or alter or interact with other things do so as they're supposed to do, and the Job has a groundwork laid for future additions so it isn't designed into a corner.

I get you don't like it. But you not liking a thing is not what defines whether or not it is fine.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Or people like playing it. That it’s not complicated enough for likely a huge minority of players on the complaining (err dps) forums is irrelevant.

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We can also see this with things like the Lucky Bancho numbers and other surveys showing that the most played classes in each role are generally the easiest - WAR, WHM, and SMN. RDM is also frequently played (and also easy), and all three of the Ranged physical are similar to each other (because they're all relatively easy), and RPR, followed by SAM, are the most played Melee, which area also - you guessed it - the easiest of them.

While the forums are often filled with VERY vocal masochistic complexity purists, the game as a whole isn't. And we have other Jobs for the people that like complex, clunk, and convolution anyway.

Welp guess im of the few that like it now. No more identity crisis now.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wait, what? If you're spamming Ruin, you're doing it wrong. You should only even cast Ruin MAYBE twice per minute, which is less than old SMN did. The variations while under Primal effects are not Ruin, don't cast like Ruin, and don't work like Ruin. Garuda's are instant casts with a reduced GCD. Titan's are instant cast with an oGCD to weave between them, and Ifrit's is a GCD cast longer than the GCD itself. NOT ONE OF THESE is like Ruin. And if you're going to say "That's just Ruin with a different flavor", then Miasma, Bio, and Egi Assault were "just Ruin with a different flavor", too.

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Oh word man, this GCD that is just flat damage with no preamble, setup, or consequence is totally not at all like this other GCD that is just flat damage with no preamble, setup, or consequence. Instant cast totally makes them more interesting. .3 seconds added to 2 of them per minute is totally different.

Miasma, Bio, and Egi-Assault had plenty to separate them mechanically from spamming one button for 45 seconds, before swapping over to another TOTALLY UNIQUE AND FUN NOT-RUIN GCD for the next 15s.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's "fine" because all the pieces work together

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Are you sure? How does Aetherflow work with anything now? How does Ruin 4 work with anything? How does Carbuncle really work with anything? How do Arcanum summons work with the Demi summons? Is Demis shitting out the gems being the only relation really fine?

Can we please stop bringing up Miasma and Bio until Necromancer becomes a thing. Of all the spells and mechanics those are the absolute least likely to ever return.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

....... How does Aetherflow work with anything now? How does Ruin 4 work with anything? How does Carbuncle really work with anything? How do Arcanum summons work with the Demi summons? Is Demis shitting out the gems being the only relation really fine?

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I do not understand the Aetherflow argument about how it works with anything. It is just an ability that gives us 2 oGCDs. How are these 2 oGCDs different to any oGCD from other jobs?

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Originally Posted by Ayden

I do not understand the Aetherflow argument about how it works with anything. It is just an ability that gives us 2 oGCDs. How are these 2 oGCDs different to any oGCD from other jobs?

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SMN's compatriot RDM makes its damage-on-a-cd oGCDs slightly more interesting by requiring you to align your dual casts with them for optimal cooldown saturation. SMN just dumps them into the infinite weave space of Bahamut. This is a direct interaction with another element of the kit compared to Aetherflow and Fester just...existing.

Best option the devs can take in 7.0 is delete SMN as normal job, recreate it as a limited job and add all the summons and their "unique" skills in all kinds and variations possible to please those that want more summons. Then replace normal job SMN spot with a totally new caster.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Can we please stop bringing up Miasma and Bio until Necromancer becomes a thing. Of all the spells and mechanics those are the absolute least likely to ever return.

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Or they could just bring them back to SCH. Because creating an entirely new job just to satisfy the people who liked old SMN seems asinine when Scholar is literally right there as the other summon job.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Or they could just bring them back to SCH. Because creating an entirely new job just to satisfy the people who liked old SMN seems asinine when Scholar is literally right there as the other summon job.

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On this I fully agree. Scholar leaning away from the diseases aspect of its job identity and instead opting to pursue the "Orator" fantasy was one of the worst mistakes to ever happen to the job. "Art of War" please. Give me back Miasma II on that job, and the other dots too.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Can we please stop bringing up Miasma and Bio until Necromancer becomes a thing. Of all the spells and mechanics those are the absolute least likely to ever return.

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I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

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Ok so explain Reaper.

I don’t understand what people mean when they said old SMN was a mess or that it had individual parts that didn’t work together. That’s current SMN. Aetherflow and Fester don’t interact with anything. Your Primal phases have no impact on your demi phases. Your raid buff isn’t tied to any other job system anymore (RIP Carbuncle). Everything with current SMN feels like a disjointed, silo’d system.

ShB SMN had many systems that worked with each other. Your stack management during filler affected your Bahamut phase. You conveniently needed 2 ruin stacks to enkindle Bahamut and 2 stacks to finish Bahamut phase without Swiftcast for a total of 4. Oh will you look at that, you can stack up to 4 further ruins, the exact number you need. DWT gives you the weave windows needed to summon Bahamut as well as get pet CDs out of the way. Phoenix needs a stack to weave the summon, but it doesn’t spend stacks itself so it doesn’t need DWT. Don’t need to move? Short cooldown Aetherflow and Fester still had a purpose by burning your stacks anyway. The CD of trances and DWT working the way it did made trance rushing optimal for most encounters, but you could still hold Phoenix for 10s if needed while new SMN is forced to demi almost on cooldown due to the poor implementation of the gem system, leading to jank like doing filler inside raid buffs in P2S. And so on.

Old SMN was unintuitive, sure. That’s a valid criticism. But it wasn’t disjointed and it wasn’t a mess. It had systems that interacted and worked well with each other. From a gameplay and rotation point of view, there is no meaningful difference between not being able to chain certain pet actions and not being able to press 132 instead of 123 of your melee combo.

That being said, I understand the egis were not appealing to a lot of people. I think there is merit in making a more intuitive job. I’m actually OK with the removal of 5.5 SMN.

I just think we should have gotten a much better-designed, more involved, less unfinished/half-baked rework. I do not think the current demi implementation and gem charges system is good design or a ‘good base to build upon’. This argument is a fallacious whataboutism about old SMN. The primal phases of new SMN are too similar, short and inconsequential, the rotation is excessively rigid due to tying nearly everything to summoning a demi, there’s no interaction between the primal phases or the demi phase, the demi phases are completely devoid of mechanics and so on. The current system is too heavily flawed to be used as a base.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

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Reapers ain't evil tho, they are a form of combat for a magically lacking people to fight against magic by forming a contract with a voidsent. A voidsent isn't exactly evil they're just starving and willing to do anything for Aether.

Now Thiefs I don't agree with him about being evil and Rouge should of upgraded into it with Ninja having its own job.

But you can't tell me that Nerco isn't evil, messing with the bodies of the dead is very evil. Plus If they ever did decide to add Necro they'd have to never give a skeleton summon or make multiple skins for it as China bans any game with skeletons being featured. (They usually get reskinned to Zombies)

Ok so give Necromancer the ability to summon zombies in China and let other players have a cool dark themed caster. I don't care for arguments based on good or evil. People don't always want to play a "good" character.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

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Reapers are not an inherently evil concept
literally just uber driver for souls of the dead

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Best option the devs can take in 7.0 is delete SMN as normal job, recreate it as a limited job and add all the summons and their "unique" skills in all kinds and variations possible to please those that want more summons. Then replace normal job SMN spot with a totally new caster.

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What you're thinking of is a different class entirely, like Beast Master, and the ability to "summon" the beasts and have their abilities be incorporated ontop of being a limited job to join BLU in order for it to reach peak potential. Would also revitalize the pet mechanic in there as well. Would we ever get something like that? Maybe 8 years from now.

No, the SMN we have today is the one that Squenix intended and wanted to include, as well as kill the pet mechanic on it to bring the "Summon monster to do 1 big attack and then tell the SMN they need to go buy milk and disappears for a while" as some have argued wanting of it being "asthetic to Final Fantasy". I would actually be in favor if they just split the Arcanist/Scholar jobs entirely, made them independent, and made SMN carry a sack of stones to summon, since that seems to be where the idea and aesthetic is headed. With that in mind, including Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh won't just be enough. More will need to be included and added as options into the rotation. Leviathan, Shiva, and Ramuh phases will be a good inclusion into either bahamut or phoenix phase, but they should be included sooner and give SMN players leveling from 26-90 something to look forward to.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so give Necromancer the ability to summon zombies in China and let other players have a cool dark themed caster. I don't care for arguments based on good or evil. People don't always want to play a "good" character.

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That's fine, but YoshiP, the director of this game said no. I'm not arguing for or against it just saying what he said and that was "its not happening"

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Originally Posted by fulminating

largely stems from its aesthetics or "as long as you have hands" gameplay.

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This constraint seems excessive.

Do with that claim what you will.







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More seriously:

At this point, I don't think a revert is a viable choice, even if the devs had no hesitation against it. However, neither is keeping SMN as Fisher-Price as it is now.

That's not to say that, past the obfuscation, 5.55 SMN was actually that much more complex, merely that it was a step above enough not to feel awful/unfinished. This downgrade is most noticeable now across the 30-89 experience, with even 90 feeling significantly more barebone than 70-80 had before Endwalker. That should in no way be acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

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Soul-stealing is fine. It's not (typically) exchangeable for monetary value.

And as long as they've been disfigured enough from the collapse of their shard, it's not really bringing people back from (un)death when you summon voidsent.