"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

As people don't want to play the game they want to have the felling as if they do. If the game will get harder they can't do it.

My favourite reply is GO PLAY ELDEN RING THEN whenever anybody mentions difficulty or complexity. I agree with OP 100%. People need to chill. If you want to drool on the keyboard and recieve your rewards that's fine, but just because I want to engage my brain, don't disregard my wants and needs. The two arent mutually exclusive

Is this title aimed at Summoner players? It's my main job so I'd know!



But honestly, I'm glad we have really braindead easy jobs, and some more complicated ones. There are people that like easy jobs only (me). For example, in Shadowbringers I loved Red Mage and Dancer, and never touched Summoner because it was too complicated for me to learn. Now in Endwalker both Dancer and Red Mage got more clunky for me so I don't like them as much, so I'm glad I have the new Summoner to be an easy job, It became my favorite now! Jobs change all the time, in all expansions. If you don't like your favorite job anymore because of new changes, just go find another job to like! There's nothing much you can do.



Cheers!

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Originally Posted by anhaato

So goes a large portion of responses to discussion threads about wanting jobs to be complex and diverse again. This is especially rampant for healer discussion, being that it's the role that takes the least effort to play with how simplified they've each become. A lot of people seem to like healers as they are now. Totally valid. However much of the playerbase they represent, beyond me! But either way they're ever present ready to tell us that healers as they are now represent what their idea of a healer is, and their idea is the correct one.

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All I know is that there is simply no way I could main a healer in this game and play it as regularly as I do tank and dps jobs. The core issue of having not enough damage to heal prevents me from making full use of my kit in most situations. There are a lot of common sense solutions that would be beneficial to both groups of players when it comes to healers, such as:

- Condense the single target heal into one button (Regen healers)
- Add in fun crowd control spells like PVP Miracle of Nature for WHM, I suppose the equivalent for SCH might be to turn things into tonberries.
- Simple 1-2 combos for damage rotations
- An aoe dot spell

There are many more ways to make healers more fun for everyone, but at the moment none of these options are being pursued. Now as an AST enjoyer I have to be concerned as to whether or not Lord and Lady of Crowns will be removed from the job for the 2nd time in 6.2, instead of condensing several other buttons that have no business being separate in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starshower

Is this title aimed at Summoner players? It's my main job so I'd know!

There are people that like easy jobs only (me). For example, in Shadowbringers I loved Red Mage and Dancer, and never touched Summoner because it was too complicated for me to learn.

If you don't like your favorite job anymore because of new changes, just go find another job to like! There's nothing much you can do.

---

I believe the constant belittling of players who enjoy new Summoner has deepened the rift between them and fans of the old version, whose grip on the job for the past 8 years culminated in there being no way forward except a rework from the ground up. Trying to make Warlock Summoner work at any cost led to the stacking of disjointed systems directly on top of each other alongside various bugs and glitches. I cannot and will never be able to see eye to eye with those who prided themselves on being able to manage that situation when by the time Shadowbringers came and I played that version of the job, I made the decision to never play it again because it was just too much of a mess -

That being said, the job is still the victim of 8 years of total mismanagement and the rework, while necessary, came incredibly late into this game's lifespan and thus we find ourselves with a lackluster (though easier on the hands) levelling experience and the greater part of our pantheon of summons missing. Again, common sense solutions can be applied here in order to appease current Summoner players - because trying to win back the people who still to this day clamor in their own megathread for the return of dots and ruin-stacking is an exercise in futility that would anger more people than placate them. Those people need to take the advice you've given and that I will echo: find another job, there is no going back to the situation that collectively made both players and the devs throw their hands up in the air in defeat. Hopefully one day they get their Necromancer job, but until then I imagine their "fixes" that include bringing back irrelevant abilities like Bio and Miasma will go ignored, because the job has finally broken free of its old direction.

(Watch the "Rydia was a poison mage!" person come back and try to argue how "unique" the job was, yeah so unique that Final Fantasy fans considered it the single worst iteration of the job in the entire franchise. Please.)

Once again, simple and logical solutions are the way to move things forward without undoing all the good that the rework actually did do in terms of affirming the job’s identity and giving it a basic gameplay loop that resonates with far more people than ruin-stacking/dots/and trances all stacked right on top of each other:

- The addition of Shiva/Leviathan/Ramuh as the second round of gem summons, bringing with them unique Astral Flow abilities and different ways to make use of their gem charges. This could be any number of things but I do like the idea of WoW’s new “channelled spells” and would like to see them on Summoner if possible.
- More reliable utilities that can be used with less restrictions. This is an obvious necessity.
- A gauge to build up to greater summons like Alexander or Odin, filled by fulfilling a set of requirements that require a degree of engagement rather than being solely based off the passage of time.
- Adjusting the levelling process to include elemental mastery traits earlier.
- Revamping Energy Drain/Fester/Painflare/Ruin IV into more meaningful, thematically relevant actions.
- A channelled spell like Astral Stasis that can be used in fight downtime to charge their gauge for Alexander/Odin or reduce the cooldown timer of Bahamut, while granting group utilities like a regen or defense buff.

Adding this as an edit because I know that someone will probably come in here with this argument - do not allow ARR "lore" to hold this job back further. Add the summons missing from its pantheon, make it meaningful, and make it good. If I'm summoning Phoenix right in front of Alphinaud and Alisae's face then I can quite literally do anything!

Give Miasma and Bane back to Scholar Yoshida, I am no longer asking nicely
Shadow Flare and Miasma II too

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Give Miasma and Bane back to Scholar Yoshida, I am no longer asking nicely

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Scholar went from my go to healer in Stormblood to a job I no longer acknowledge exists. All the overpowered healing tools in the world mean nothing if there is no need for me to use them. Instead all I can do as a Scholar is spam visually unimpressive attacks, all while ignoring the Faerie Gauge which I understand has been made even more irrelevant than it already was. There is no reason for me to switch to the job while Sage exists - though even Sage is guilty of having nothing to do despite being marketed as a more engaging healer in the leadup to Endwalker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

AIEEE NOOO IF YOU ADD 2-3 MORE DPS BUTTONS TO HEALERS MY ROULETTES MIGHT TAKE 17 MINUTES INSTEAD OF 15 AAAAAAAAAA YOSHIDA SAVE ME PLEASE THE 2 MINUTES LOST WAS VITAL TO MY TIME ERPING IN LIMSA AAAAAAAAA

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New ERP spot is in that small Steam room in Empyreum. : D

https://i.imgur.com/5FHOyeM.gif

difficulties didn't necessarily meaning scary. look at dark soul series and elden ring. And the original healers and tank complexity aren't really that complex at all. It's just too simple now

There have been a lot of things done that feel maybe 'that took away from people who liked that. . . ;/" but at the same time I really don't like nor want a game that is like "you want it, you got to WORK FOR IT" particularly if it's going to involve relying on others lol. Like some of my favorite dungeon runs is when I'm stuck with not so great people (who are nice) but I am able to try hard the entire team and carry a victory. I like playing with others but I greatly dislike having the little spare time I have being committed to 100% wasted time. I do not like trying to do some regular content (everything not savage and above basically) and spending the next 90 minutes wiping because some of the players don't get it. I realize this will naturally create a space that is a bit easier.. and I am okay with that. This is definitely the game I go to relax, not to join pro E-sports. I know some people like to go to that level, but I'm not interested. 20 - 50 minutes a day, I don't need / want that.

I also greatly value content getting easier over time and will definitely argue on that hill that most (sans Ultimate) should become solo-able by the next expansion release (or at least expansion and a half). I think it's possible to have a "but I did it when it was hard so everyone else has to do it hard too" but I think it's a generally bad mindset to have and one that should be carefully broken / ignored (mind the word carefully, give someone new hard content and the very next week make it a cake walk... that'd be silly and not okay). I also like this to help support a wider range of players, which SE has done and hopefully can continue to refine (as in you can join late and still do pretty much any content you're interested in, there is no death of content and imo THAT IS GOOD, but you could / should be able to find harder content at some point).

I do believe some people are asking for something they don't want, just haven't realized it yet lol- like that classic WoW dev moment but not satirically. Like few, not many, are wanting to see casual content become much harder by force (no options in PF or whatever). It will absolutely, imo, lead to an exodus of players and probably a significant increase in time investment that they weren't prepared for. You see ideas often that are like "ZERO FORGIVENESS" and I often imagine if they got what they wanted they'd be like "oops" lol. Now of course a lot of the time it's nuanced or just a general idea of desire and not a specific requirement just "I wish it was at least a bit harder", but I have seen just the same of casual imposing on hardcore that I see hardcore attempting to do the same (two way street of "it all belongs to me").

Yet that doesn't mean throw the baby chocobo out with the gyshal water... Why not change zero forgiveness into another scary tank buster or something? Perhaps echo is activated even at release (in that failure leads to echo, so a msq boss is tuned hard but failure would help alleviate wasted time). Or I don't think all healers need to be hard-mode but it does seem like all healers have been moving towards an easier and easier route with a few variables causing this including tanks are becoming more self-sufficient (at least at particular skill points). Certainly we might think of something to help. One suggestion offered is more support skills, with the type based on healer- for example one might be an en-buff that increases a target's damage with bounded results ("next 5 attacks deal 100 more potency, 60 second buff duration") and another might be offensive and yet bounded for balance like (pulling this from a dark theme healer thread I made) hemorrhage - increases target's damage received from party by x% up to y potency (may even add flavor like boss actions also cause damage, but due to the bounded structure you wont have to worry about huge balance issues). Say one issue SE mentioned before with AST was the party wide buffs were creating balance concerns because party wide buffs could cause a difference in power from 4 to 8 (obvious math), to which I think some of these support concerns can be solved by bounding the problem.

Another was making gear progression a little bit slower, to which I called it 'horizontal-lite' so powercreep isn't as fast during live content and perhaps particularly the defensive stats (but keep echo returning power creep... thank you :p lol). With a potential final twist, which I think initially might sound weird but in context of difficulty settings in solo games I think it makes a lot of sense, in that perhaps the harder to get gear might have higher damage stats but lower defensive stats than the easier to get gear which has the inverse (the difference ratio not being equal either, but enough that say ultimate looks for that extra few % from each player- if casual gear was 100 defense and 94 offense the harder to get damage gear would be 100 damage and 85 defense, keeping in mind the gear stacks so % increase would be larger in a whole while at the same time gear from the previous content might have some differences but would probably have a same ilvl due to horizontal-lite). The reasoning behind this is players who are good don't need help surviving, look at games that offer challenge options - what happens when a player chooses to play the content harder? Players who want hard content in most MMOs as far as I can tell are rewarded with easier content lol (and unlike sRPGs where you just go to the next content until you win and stop playing in an MMOrpg you will repeat that content, so literally rewarded with the opposite of what you were looking for).

This in some ways might be argued as a punishment. "Good job, now get less of what you wanted". Now of course there are a series of reasons why it is the way it is... you don't want to be rewarded by nothing that'd be very lame... So in this situation you'd be rewarded by being able to complete content faster (more damage) and also perhaps access to harder content that has more strict DPS floors, but would also say "good, you now have to be even more careful with mechanics- you know that thing our not so good / new player is face tanking.. yeah you can't do that as easily, don't forget to use your mitigation tools". I think for tanks the difference might have to be a bit more nuanced though like perhaps mitigation tools have a slight buff, but otherwise you still take a bit of a defensive hit (so if you use mitigation very well you'd not notice too much of a survive-ability difference but you'd HAVE to play well for that to be true).

There would need to be careful considerations on how big the window of horizontal-ness is and such though because you could easily make it so people who are like "I already did primal 1, and the gear from primal 2 looks silly so I'm not going to bother because there is no statistical reason why I'd do it".. such a thing could negatively impact participation.. which might be a good thing for those players as they feel less 'obligated' to play content they don't want to play... but also bad for the numbers obviously (less people.. bad). One thing might be okay is if they do the powercreep in steps, like step 1 is a few patches long and the next step would be like jump 20 ilvls (substantial enough everyone will start the cycle over again), meanwhile the gear itself might now have cool effects. So you get primal 1 (Ramuh) which gives your Dragoon jumps this building charge effect giving you empowered fancy effect abilities (with obviously increased damage) meanwhile Garuda comes out and has a lot of aerial focus so like your jumps apply a max hp % shield and have half cooldown, 50% movement speed degenerating over 5 seconds after each jump and can move during jump animation, etc or something super fun like that. So during this horizontal cycle you'd be trying them out just because it's fun to see how your gameplay changes, even if statistically behind the scenes they're "vaguely" similar in output.

Then the horizontal cycle ends and the jump is large enough everyone moves forward and the investment to get into content isn't like FFXI where it was like "that thing that took 6 months to earn, you don't have that- we don't want you, also you need another item that takes 2 months to earn.. get that too". The longer the cycle the more content will be remaining fairly challenging. May also consider other things like initially everyone starts out with similar ratios of offensive and defensive but as content progresses the ratio for casual gear is fairly consistent (~92-4 damage, 100 defensive) but the harder to get gear grows slowly through an expansion such that 500 gear defense isn't a super large difference from 520 defense (so the challenge for 'hardcore' players remains fairly consistent). This also helps in other ways because if you're in a DF with new players who don't get a content they wont be killing your time because they get readily rofl stomped. Think of the sRPG again. Players who are not confident / new to a content normally get more help, but in most MMOs (and in case of FFXIV) who gets the most help? The hardcore players. Who gets the least help? New players. Seems backwards, imo.

Anyway... There are loads of angles things can be talked about, to which I'd be happy to talk about each one.. but not in one post cause.. I'm already the one of if not 'the' longest tl;dr poster here, and I do see problems here and there people mention, but I also feel the converse relationship of OP's post definitely exists where people would like to take content away or aggressively require barriers of entry to never be adjusted. Just as a casual player may want to ensure MSQ is faceroll-able at all times, hardcore might be like "THIS IS MY CONTENT, BACK OFF PEASENT" lol. My personal ideal is that content will try to mutate to each player's play style, with some exceptions (like ultimate). And there are a lot of tools to do that, including just time. Time for example makes this current tier savage solo-able in a year, to which I say is a good thing. Like how the Eureka content, generally, mutates to allow it to not die after it was popular (bots can cause an issue with echo calculations unfortunately, depending on what you're doing).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Scholar went from my go to healer in Stormblood to a job I no longer acknowledge exists. All the overpowered healing tools in the world mean nothing if there is no need for me to use them. Instead all I can do as a Scholar is spam visually unimpressive attacks, all while ignoring the Faerie Gauge which I understand has been made even more irrelevant than it already was. There is no reason for me to switch to the job while Sage exists - though even Sage is guilty of having nothing to do despite being marketed as a more engaging healer in the leadup to Endwalker.

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I was really hoping when they announced that SMN was losing the DoTs that it meant Miasma and Bane would return to SCH, as I always felt like the DoTs fit SCH way more than SMN and the entirety of SCH's job quest lore being around the Tonberry plague and the Scholars studying plagues and diseases to try and figure out a cure... but nope! Can't expect them to do something SCH players have been wanting back for years that would be minimal effort, lets give them more heal button bloat, Scholars enjoy only having 1 AoE button! It would have even been a way to say "hey, if you liked Bio and Miasma management gameplay on SMN in ShB, SCH has that again in EW! Why not try that, you have it leveled with ACN already!" But healers can't have anything fun, forever doomed to the mindless tedium of 1-1-1-1 because healers like heal buttons or something, right?

At least we finally got a capstone skill that doesn't lock us out of all of our previous capstones, that's nice I guess @-@

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

There have been a lot of things done that feel maybe 'that took away from people who liked that. . . ;/"

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But that's exactly what's happening. Instead of just lowering the skill floor and making the jobs accessible, they gut the skill ceiling in half, remove core mechanics, homogenized everything, alienated the core players who loved and mastered the job and even in some cases, the role, effectively removing room for skill expression and removing content from the people who loved that, when you can still just press 1 2 3 and not hit positionals as monk to even complete casual content?

Why would you remove Aero 3, Misama 3, Bane, Shadowflare, Eye for an Eye, Palisade, Kaiten, Monk's Raptor Form positionals, and Bard song and DoT synergy?
What's the point of it when people who don't wanna engage in the system... can just choose not to when they are still in the game?
Why did they remove that aspect of the gameplay when it never even mattered for people who are perfectly content at the very low skill floor?
How did removing all of that affect John "1 2 3 no positionals lmao " Monk's playstyle? Was it worth removing a fundamental part of how a sizable population enjoy the job?

NO

Why can't the fact that the jobs are accessible AND have room for skill expression coexist?

This is not gonna happen anytime soon (or at least I hope so), but this is like them removing the options to remove echo and go into content minimum Ilvl and synced.

And even then, right now there are no options to experience pre-nerf Orbonne. There are no options to experience the old job design in old hard content.
Hell, even MINE doesn't even accurately scale properly. You're still powercrept to shit because of potency changes, so Coils and Midas are still easier than when they were back then, even post-nerf.

Even UCOB and UWU have laughable dps checks because of potency powercreep.

So why is maintaining an aspect(the skill ceiling) of the window where you experience the game's content(the jobs), that a sizable population loved (us) when it won't affect Sylphie "Cure 1 spam" if there was extra dps buttons or not?

I reiterate:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The design philosophy of making the gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling barely visible so people won't feel bad when they're not good is not good.

What they're actively doing with this job design, with every role, is to effectively make it so that a new player can pick up a job, and feel like they're making optimal use of the job after barely any time investment.
("OH LITTLE TIMMY YES YOU NOW ARE A MASTER AT THIS JOB WITHIN TEN MINUTES OF HITTING THE STRIKING DUMMY!")

THAT IS A BORING WAY TO DESIGN JOBS. FUN SHOULD BE MORE OF A FACTOR IN THE DESIGN PROCESS RATHER THAN GUTTING DOWN JOBS TO GIVE PEOPLE A FAKE FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT THEY DONT EVEN CARE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Adding more complexity on top of the base jobs, the base rotations, is not gonna matter for people who don't care about them. Just like how people still spam Cure 1, when Lily GCDs and Cure 2 exist.

It's not gonna lower the skill floor, cause you can still function in content designed for casuals. More dps buttons ain't gonna mean there needs to be dps checks in Casual Content. Casual content will be as clearable with a healer who 1111111 2 1111111 or actually utilizes all their dps buttons. It doesn't matter if the skill ceiling gap is wide, because the skill floor is still low. The jobs are still accessible.

Where it does matter is in Savage and Ultimate, and frankly those are the people who WANT to be better, who wants to feel like they're improving.
Who wants to feel like they're progressively inching towards a high skill ceiling.
Who WANTS a skill ceiling.
And frankly, that's what's missing from the job design ever since 5.0 .

Bring back the skill ceiling. Make being better at X job FEEL BETTER . Stop trying to forcibly remove the skill ceiling to cater to people who are perfectly content to stay at the skill floor.
People aren't asking to raise the skill floor. People are asking to raise the skill ceiling instead.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

But at the same time I really don't like nor want a game that is like "you want it, you got to WORK FOR IT" particularly if it's going to involve relying on others lol.

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I mean it's an MMO. Respectfully, I don't think the sole focus of an MMO is supposed to be solo content. I don't think an MMO should be forced to become single player.
Sure there should be some solo content, but the major draw of an MMO is to come in, make some friends, do dungeons, explore, do high end stuff, and generally just have fun, and honestly, that should be the main goal.

Solo'ing stuff is fun, but personally if I want to solo bosses, I'd play Monster Hunter. Demanding that solo content be the sole focus of an MMO is like demanding that League's focus should be the You + 4 AI vs 5 AI experience.

It's a lil nonsensical.

If anything, what's missing from the game is 4 man content that won't need people to read guides, and actually play on the fly. Something like Deep Dungeons, but more variety and you can put the gear that you bought with tomes or whatever into it.

Something like Mythic +.

And I reiterate, you don't need to engage with the content if you don't. That's fine. What's rough is that what little content that's actually being catered to the people who like that, is slowly being reduced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

But that's exactly what's happening. Instead of just lowering the skill floor and making the jobs accessible, they gut the skill ceiling in half, remove core mechanics, homogenized everything, alienated the core players who loved and mastered the job and even in some cases, the role, effectively removing room for skill expression and removing content from the people who loved that, when you can still just press 1 2 3 and not hit positionals as monk to even complete casual content?

Why would you remove Aero 3, Misama 3, Bane, Shadowflare, Eye for an Eye, Palisade, Kaiten, Monk's Raptor Form positionals, and Bard song and DoT synergy?
What's the point of it when people who don't wanna engage in the system... can just choose not to when they are still in the game?
Why did they remove that aspect of the gameplay when it never even mattered for people who are perfectly content at the very low skill floor?
How did removing all of that affect John "1 2 3 no positionals lmao " Monk's playstyle? Was it worth removing a fundamental part of how a sizable population enjoy the job?

NO

Why can't the fact that the jobs are accessible AND have room for skill expression coexist?

This is not gonna happen anytime soon (or at least I hope so), but this is like them removing the options to remove echo and go into content minimum Ilvl and synced.

And even then, right now there are no options to experience pre-nerf Orbonne. There are no options to experience the old job design in old hard content.
Hell, even MINE doesn't even accurately scale properly. You're still powercrept to shit because of potency changes, so Coils and Midas are still easier than when they were back then, even post-nerf.

Even UCOB and UWU have laughable dps checks because of potency powercreep.

So why is maintaining an aspect(the skill ceiling) of the window where you experience the game's content(the jobs), that a sizable population loved (us) when it won't affect Sylphie "Cure 1 spam" if there was extra dps buttons or not?

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Just to make sure, you're agreeing with me then? (My first sentence was literally saying that people are feeling like they're losing things they liked).

I mean your post, to me, initially reads like a disagreement in some ways, but maybe I'm just picking up on the negative energy because you're unhappy (not saying it as an insult, saying it as you don't like the direction some things are going). The content itself ended up seeming like we agreed.. /shrug?

Because as far as I can tell we agreed in a general sense. Perhaps not on point by point, but vaguely so lol. Like some of your points I've said.. hmm.. maybe you should add that back.. or try this concept, it wont add more buttons but will certainly add back some ability to fine tune play.. Etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I mean it's an MMO. Respectfully, I don't think the sole focus of an MMO is supposed to be solo content. I don't think an MMO should be forced to become single player.
Sure there should be some solo content, but the major draw of an MMO is to come in, make some friends, do dungeons, explore, do high end stuff, and generally just have fun, and honestly, that should be the main goal.

Solo'ing stuff is fun, but personally if I want to solo bosses, I'd play Monster Hunter. Demanding that solo content be the sole focus of an MMO is like demanding that League's focus should be the You + 4 AI vs 5 AI experience.

It's a lil nonsensical.

If anything, what's missing from the game is 4 man content that won't need people to read guides, and actually play on the fly. Something like Deep Dungeons, but more variety and you can put the gear that you bought with tomes or whatever into it.

Something like Mythic +.

And I reiterate, you don't need to engage with the content if you don't. That's fine. What's rough is that what little content that's actually being catered to the people who like that, is slowly being reduced.

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Meh. :p. lol

I think there was a long misunderstood but ever and substantially growing group (since advent of mmos which were originally more hardcore, like the original Everquest) in the hyper to moderately casual group. Both in that originally the sphere was unwelcoming and uncompromising (try de-leveling at level 75 in OG FFXI... jesus... Orz / cry lol), but also because the audience that took part in that is also aging (/adulting) creating a double impact to people who don't want to invest the time because they were never interested in that and people who cant invest the time. Sure if I was a pro-streamer I'd want something more, because I'd be spending 8 hours a day on it. I find it not uncommon people from the older era have trouble grasping that there are /a lot/ of people who actually like the multiplayer nature while also having /a lot/ of solo opportunity and casual content (but through multiple current games it's fairly obvious this is common and large group of people, so I find it interesting people usually still have trouble imaging they exist and call their preferences silly).

Also I want to note that either intentionally or mistakenly you took things out of context. I didn't say sole focus, I said I enjoy carrying the team in those moments where others are doing bad and I am able to do so. There isn't as much carrying in something that is super hard in a team effort because if one fails you all fail, sure you could have crazy good call outs so you're mvp but at that tier of play I'd consider the game 'work'. Like I used to play Warcraft 3 ladder a lot until I got to the ranks where I was using hotkeys like a Starcraft Korean and to which I felt stressed and had no fun anymore. If someone paid me, I don't think I would have an issue doing it.. since I've done it before, but that 'aint fun' to me. Like if someone was "do you want to join my ultimate group" that's a hard pass for me, even if you bent to my very schedule perfectly- I don't want to memorize a bunch of stuff, for me that's literal work. Pay me lol. Of course I have no interest in nerfing ultimate as I see it is content designed specifically for a very particular type of person, who is clearly by statistics part of the minority.

I like having people in the world space, talking to them, doing the frontlines / crystal pvp, etc. I'm aware it's an MMO. But I also like to be able to do stuff solo or at least within the time constraints I give the game. If people who wanted hardcore stuff, without compromise, had their way then the entire game would be a huge waste of my time. I'd have to watch a 10 minute video so I could go die for a few hours because some dude can't figure their stuff out, so then I'd be forced to PF (a good place to organize more skilled groups, cause you can kick if you need), and then I'd be spending time also asking for parties and feeling compelled to play a lot during the 'hot' periods because if I didn't then I wouldn't get to enjoy the content. By this nature of different desires I therefore do like that the game has in most places a low barrier to entry. Of course those means change, like I think its fair and fine that for a while harder content will remain roughly hard (of course we can talk about how well or fun that content is, as I mentioned a bit already in my previous post, but the concept that for a time it's not designed for broad-spectrum is totally fine).

Beyond that I think you missed my point I also think it's actively wrong to any longer consider MMO is exclusively for multiplayer content, as is clearly (like massively obvious) proved by the sure amount of casuals or casual games that have soft social elements. People like to come in contact with each other but that doesn't mean those same people want to always be forced into content like a can of sardines, a common mistake from people used to older MMOs. The amount of MMOs that support actively or at least with at least an element of thought is extremely high these days, actions by design- and I think what is more nonsensical is that many people who come from older backgrounds have a bit of an immoveable unfathomable concept of this. Like that patrick meme from spongebob, where you go step by step by the obvious points that /a lot/ of people like casual / solo opportunities and then you get to the end of the meme and the older player fails the test that MMOs these days actively support solo play because it is a desired feature of .. yes.. an mmo.

That said I also don't think you should forget about the multiplayer element (..obviously? lol). Like personally, if I had all the money in the world and talent lol (which I've neither haha), I would probably make sure people could team up for the MSQ. I don't think it's that great you have to join and leave parties as you do the content, I would like to see it possible to do the entire MSQ with your friends. Yet I also would absolutely not require that, and would ensure it was solo-able.

There are some situations where you can't make everyone happy, and that sucks... but if you can it's worth it I think. So on your last point, sure you don't need to engage in the content but I think it's also fine to make that content accessible over time. Initially it might be crazy hard, but after a few months there is new content and so there is something called 'echo' added to allow it to remain fairly hard but invite more players, then after even more time some absolutely unforgiving mechanics might be adjusted (personally I'd like to see stuff coded into automatic gates), and again and again until it's like a year later and a dude is going in solo. Ideally the solo experience in that moment isn't 1 hit kill, but say certain 1 shot mechanics might be changed to high damage, etc, so you still see a lot of mechanics, enjoy the environment and music, but you're not doomed because no one is doing that content anymore.

Content death, imo, is entirely optional and on that shouldn't generally happen unless it's just bad content that is getting redesigned / redistributed. To which I include having to beg the PF gods to get a group essentially content death, if you have to ask for multiple hours (especially on multiple days) to do something.. then at that point it's dead. This to note can happen to content that isn't even hard, which is why solo-ability is important. Back in 1.0 I was trying to do the ifrit quest at like level 30 or whatever it was... I /literally/ shouted multiple days for multiple hours in Ul'Dah. Finally a group of people volunteered because they felt bad and were probably sick of seeing me shout. Before I finished the introduction cutscene ifrit was dead..... It was that easy... Just no one did it anymore because they 'got theirs' (which is fine, but an example of why I think it's important you do keep lowering barrier to entry over and over and over until it is actually solo-able, adding things like echo, trusts, or what have you). 1.0 would be a more exaggerated example since it was relatively dead at the time, but you do have queues before trusts that were relatively long for certain story content (hence partial trusts being added I imagine, as those contents were essentially dead).

I don't think everything needs to be 'smooth brained', but I don't believe there is an issue with some jobs being smoother than others, or inviting large groups of people into content over a large spread of time, etc. Which is why I said to address certain issues probably requires that specific point brought up. Imo it's good the game is casual friendly, this is a major reason why I play it, but I also see some things happening that are perhaps too 'smooth' lol or are not offering alternative opportunities for those who seek more. I think for the most part both parties can be pleased. Though I wont be interested much in conversations that are like "this is my content, never nerf, never change it, if you want to do it - do it like I did 2 years ago" (with very unique exceptions, since I see ultimate as the carrot on the stick for that very type of person-- but personally on a social / personal level I don't really buy that type of thing.. you playing GoW on max difficulty does not impact my normal difficulty so long as we both had fun doing it or vice versa.. since GoW was the game I played on max and it was crazy hard..).

Just as an aside example, in the previous post, I was discussing things that might be done for healers to gain back some depth (and have on other occasions gone on much longer posts about such a thing). But that's why I said we'd best go point by point... "Stop nerfing savage overtime, remove echo" I'll be like.. no.. keep doing that. "Improve the fun I have while playing savage during current content window", that sounds like an interesting conversation to have. Or Healers who are like "I press 3 buttons, maybe, in casual oversynced DF... I'm so bored" (damage / ogcd heal, maybe raise).. That sounds interesting to discuss.

I think the ability to solo stuff and play at your own pace/alone and treat the game as a single player RPG if you want to is great, and in a vacuum I don't mind them supporting players who want to play XIV like a ""final fantasy game" more than an MMO. However, healer design is incongruent to this and feels like it's not even thought about for the developers anymore. Solo play is so freaking miserable on a healer that I find it impossible to believe that they consider it at all. Soloing stuff on a DPS or Tank gives me stuff to do. Soloing stuff on a healer leaves me with nothing to do other than 1-1-1-1 in literally everything ranging from FATEs, solo duties, etc. These kits are overwhelmingly designed for multiplayer high end raid content where you're still hitting 1-1-1-1 for most of the time.

If anyone wants to experience the most masochistic experience you can in XIV, go grind for your Zodiac relic on WHM or SCH. You're going to learn to LOVE that Stone/Ruin spam, it is literally ALL you get to do in like 80% of the Atma and Book phase.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Solo play is so freaking miserable on a healer that I find it impossible to believe that they consider it at all.

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Oh they totally do not, lest I mention the fact that you can literally walk through some ARR dungeons with the duty support system without pressing a single damn button on Healer?

But hey! It's letting new Healers learn early that they are not necessary to the party.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Just to make sure, you're agreeing with me then? Reads like a disagreement in some ways, but maybe I'm just picking up on the negative energy because you're unhappy (not saying it as an insult, saying it as you don't like the direction some things are going).

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Yeah it's been a lil rough trying to point out very obvious things that subtlety doesn't work anymore. Being very "in your face" does work though, and cuts straight to the point sooner. If that was a lot of negative vibes, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Beyond that I think you missed my point I also think it's actively wrong to any longer consider MMO is exclusively for multiplayer content, as is clearly (like massively obvious) proved by the sure amount of casuals or casual games that have soft social elements. People like to come in contact with each other but that doesn't mean those same people want to always be forced into content like a can of sardines, a common mistake from people used to older MMOs.

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I think you have this mindset that "multiplayer content = hardcore content" when it's definitely not. There are lot of people who use this game as a social game, and meeting up and doing stuff together is ultimately the main goal of an MMO, and more content that focuses on the single player experience ultimately sabotages that goal. Content that's designed for multiplayer, with the option (but not the main goal) of doing it solo, whether or not it gets powercrept over time or they add options (like extra echo) to it when there's few players in the instance is acceptable to preserve the skill floor, but making MOST of the relevant content in an MMO, SINGLE PLAYER, is not the way to go.

One of my fun things to do in FF14 besides raiding is running BLU dungeons, and getting BLU spells. When I'm in the mood for it, I would jump into a PF with a BLU who needs a spell, and we would gather 6 more people and go in the instance and BLU farm and have a good time. If BLU spells are only "learnable" in Masked Carnivale (where you can ONLY go in single player), then that effectively makes that part of the game ONLY single player.

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the queue button together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

Sure, I'll give you that an MMO shouldn't be exclusively multiplayer, but it should be focused more in content you play with people, rather than turning an MMO into an RPG. Monster Hunter is not a good example of MMORPG, nor is Left 4 Dead a good example of an MMORPG. An MMORPG's content should be first and foremost, designed for the multiplayer experience, not get turned into a lobby based game where nobody does content together cause "why do this with another person that I don't know and whose probably bad at the game and talk to them when I can just go ahead and afk in Trusts instead.

FF14 should encourage multiplayer, not snuff it out completely. instead of "fixing" areas of the game by making it only singleplayer(which is the easy way out), they should just use it as a band-aid fix, and go ahead and research and develop design decisions that does encourage people coming in together for content in an MMO, just like Treasure Maps, and/or Hunt Trains, or even World Bosses.

One more thing though, I'm not advocating for removal of echo or anything like that, or a return to the old days of "deleveling". I'm not advocating for a higher skill floor and the game to be less acessible. What I'm advocating for is an expansion of the other side of the spectrum, a restoration of the skill ceiling. A restoration of that side of content that's been removed alongside the lowering of skill floor. I want more options to experience the content as it was before, pre-nerfed and everything. I want more content to challenge me. I want the skill ceiling back. Not all people want handouts. If surmounting a difficult wall is not for you and you're burnt out, that's fine, but don't make the mistake of assuming that merits a removal of options for people who want that.

There's also a subset of the population who still play this game for the PvE content, just like there were people who engaged in PvP before the CC rework, just like people who craft, just like people who fish, just like people who do housing.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Yeah it's been a lil rough trying to point out very obvious things that subtlety doesn't work anymore. Being very "in your face" does work though, and cuts straight to the point sooner. If that was a lot of negative vibes, I apologize.

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Eh no worry :D

I just wanted to verify because I didn't address the points by point but I was like.. "I've seen the simplification of healers over time, and while I think it might be fine one healer is known as being simple.. I am not particularly on board with the entire movement.. and I feel like we can add things back that don't even mess with the whole image of 'healer'"... so why dont we.. like the support concepts I was trying to suggest.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I think you have this mindset that "multiplayer content = hardcore content" when it's definitely not. There are lot of people who use this game as a social game, and meeting up and doing stuff together is ultimately the main goal of an MMO, and more content that focuses on the single player experience ultimately sabotages that goal. Content that's designed for multiplayer, with the option (but not the main goal) of doing it solo, whether or not it gets powercrept over time or they add options (like extra echo) to it when there's few players in the instance is acceptable to preserve the skill floor, but making MOST of the relevant content in an MMO, SINGLE PLAYER, is not the way to go.

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I would say anything savage + is on the hardcore border (with ultimate obviously definitely being within it). All MSQ related content being not hardcore, but obviously all MSQ is quite achieveable in DF :p. I've no problem with this in a general statement. We might be able to hash out ways to refine the experience but I think it's good that I can assume if I queue for a DF (non-savage.. lol) content that I will finish that content and if I have to I can carry the entire team to the end.

I think making most of the content single-player-able is good. Making it designed FOR singleplayer at the outset, particularly with the word "most".. maybe not so much... Here and there, sure, but not 'from the outset most'...

'Most' should be designed for multiplayer, and perhaps forethought in how the content will progress down the pipeline as it ages. Starting out with people at the top of the stack who are the most skilled / time eager. Like if I was making a primal fight I'd put in a function / spell that killed players if they failed, but in that function would have a variable to check if they had like epic echo on or something, if they did then I'd be like 'clearly this is now old content and I don't need to be excluding solo players' and that instant skill would be converted into very high damage (perhaps with a function of average party hp at the given level expected for content, which could be another function :D).

Perhaps we continue to agree... lol.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

One of my fun things to do in FF14 besides raiding is running BLU dungeons, and getting BLU spells. When I'm in the mood for it, I would jump into a PF with a BLU who needs a spell, and we would gather 6 more people and go in the instance and BLU farm and have a good time. If BLU spells are only "learnable" in Masked Carnivale (where you can ONLY go in single player), then that effectively makes that part of the game ONLY single player.

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I would argue that BLU really messed up on release though because it wasn't very great for solo growth, which it desperately needed given there was an obvious flash in the pan relationship to it (you could easily miss out on the opportunity to gain a lot of cool spells and turn into begging for help), and at the addition of Basic Instinct it greatly improved itself (though I still feel there are things that need refined for the initial 50 levels, which could lead to more complicated and thoughtful builds for the job as a whole). It might not be as fast but I would appreciate if the growth of the job was more exciting solo, as that's how I did it (and until you get specific skills).. it's not really... that great.. Of course, you can help your friend with a few choice skills and it gains insane pace though (but I don't think that is how it should be considered 'good enough' -- "good if you friend helps you get an oGCD, Heal, and Mimicry- you become a god!!" Otherwise "you'll cast 1 or 2 spells ad nauseum until much later").

On another note - It was, not saying 'because of me' though, my suggestion that blue mage spells were 100% learned in groups to encourage that aspect... :P.

Maybe I'm not perfect at it but I think I am able to see from a perspective different from the one I 'prefer' (partially because I was that other person). I would not intentionally remove content from someone else, at least under a general understanding of it. "Don't take away my savage ramuh!!!" ... "uh you mean that content you did 4 years ago that you haven't touched since?...? That one..? yeah I'm going to take that and give it to other players now, and I really don't care what you have to say about it- I find your behavior selfish without good merit or cause, knock it off*". *Though I don't mind temporary rewards as we're all humans and there is something primal owning a thing others don't have, even if I find it socially embarrassing that is how we are...

It cannot work perfectly in an MMO for very obvious reasons but as a general philosophy I am in full support of addressing the spectrum of difficulty types players like within the same game. If you play Witcher on easy, cool cool- did you have fun? That's the important part. I'm not going to give you less, maybe sans some cute achievement, because you chose to do that. "I made the game for you to have fun, and I put effort into making sure that you could tune the experience to how you like to have fun."

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the Queue together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

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Because you'll absolutely murder the other team lol. Though losing in PvP isn't too terrible since you still get a decent reward.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Sure, I'll give you that an MMO shouldn't be exclusively single player, but it should be focused more in content you play with people, rather than turning an MMO into an RPG. Monster Hunter is not a good example of MMORPG, nor is Left 4 Dead a good example of an MMORPG. An MMORPG's content should be first and foremost, designed for the multiplayer experience, not get turned into a lobby based game where nobody does content together cause "why do this with another person that I don't like and talk to them when I can just go ahead and afk in Trusts instead).

FF14 should encourage multiplayer, not snuff it out completely. instead of "fixing" areas of the game by making it only singleplayer(which is the easy way out), they should just use it as a band-aid fix, and go ahead and research and develop design decisions that does encourage people coming in together for content in an MMO, just like Treasure Maps, and/or Hunt Trains, or even World Bosses.

One more thing though, I'm not advocating for removal of echo or anything like that, or a return to the old days of "deleveling". I'm not advocating for a higher skill floor and the game to be less acessible. What I'm advocating for is an expansion of the other side of the spectrum, a restoration of the skill ceiling. A restoration of that side of content that's been removed alongside the lowering of skill floor. I want more options to experience the content as it was before, pre-nerfed and everything. I want more content to challenge me. I want more the skill ceiling back. Not all people want handouts. If surmounting a difficult wall is not for you and you're burnt out, that's fine, but don't make the mistake of assuming that merits a removal of options for people who want that.

There's also a subset of the population who still play this game for the PvE content, just like there were people who engaged in PvP before the CC rework, just like people who craft, just like people who fish, just like people who do housing.

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Some of the initial points I don't entirely agree on, like I think it's fine if someone wants to live the life of trusts.. I honestly don't care (unless it is going to cause massive issues for the DF, but squadrons didn't so I assume it will be fine so far lol). But I understand your ask, and I have taken part in it before- like I've written big chunky posts on world boss events, what you might be able to do with wards for events that drive people together, Hamlet (Dark Cloud / Island Sanctuary) content for FC that includes assaults and defenses (like FFXI's Aht Urhgan), etc.

I didn't think you were specifically asking for removing echo or deleveling, but just examples of where I wanted (in my first post) state that while I understand and want to be part of fleshing out and considering ideas that make the game fun for everyone.. I also would not be happy if there was a bunch of "remove echo" "never nerf this content" "ensure you can't solo learn the blue mage spells" type behaviors.

I wanted to be clear that "I like" many of the casual functions of FFXIV, but I also wanted to note that I can see where somethings feel like they go a bit too far. Or alternatively maybe it should have been done in a different space, but still exist. Like it's unfortunate to change a job famous for being hard to a job that's easy. It could still be fun in their own right for both examples... BUT.... people who flocked to that job for it's gameplay feel might feel like the carpet was ripped out from underneath them. That's a bit unfortunate. Like to me WHM is the healer for when you just want it to be straight forward. So if I was making changes to healers, I might make light changes to WHM but it wouldn't change far from that sphere. Meanwhile SCH was a bit more weird before.. so I might have tried to keep that (with offensive spells / and DoTs in particular).

Warrior's Fel Cleave was cool, but it wasn't something I felt every tank job needed lol. I think condensing skills down is very nice and I have a lot of experience playing MOBAs where 4 - 5 skills is all you need for very interesting gameplay, and I generally like FFXIV's new PVP kits, but I also understand when condensing down skills you want to bare in mind the patterns of keys pressed and if you're losing cool functionality. Less keys but similar functionality is nice, less keys but interesting patterns is even better. You could change some jobs to 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3. That's probably not great lol. Maybe one job is more closer to that because again I don't mind the idea that a job is more like "we made this with 'easy to play' in mind", but in general.. not great- I can see quite a few players would be like.. "I'm bored". Meanwhile if you had 16 abilities but used a lot of the keyboard because there was a lot of contextual, situational, and interactivity.. I think it would be fine- rather than needing 4 hotbars lol. In context of a change I think SMN at 90 is pretty fun, it could maybe have one or two more mechanics, but it's fun and I like not having insane number of skills for no good reason (I would condense a few more to be honest), but I would agree pre-86 particularly is a bit empty. To me condensing skills is an opportunity to gain more, rather than less. I'm used to like wc3 dota where reading the tooltip was like a short story... lol. So that doesn't bother me. When using a skill in HoTs did like 3 different things depending on where you were and what you were pointing at.

I might not consider condensing every job just because someone may like lots of options, though I'd try to ensure it was skills that 'felt' right to stay that way. Like I think I could think of clever rules for most of the jobs and compact them down a lot.. but some skills are screaming to be one button like leyline / return, others would require scripting if then type situation. And you'd have to ask if it damaged patterns or allowed opportunities for more or less interesting things.

In context of the recent Samurai issue, to be skills that allow fine tuning to be 'a bit' better are interesting, but I would investigate the differences and ensure that a weird case skill wasn't creating substantial differences. To the point you have stuff like bad x Job is always kicked because they're freaking awful, but a good X job is of course valuable but most don't play it right. "You didn't cast that after the 2nd, 9th, and 21st skill to line up to the 43rd window? That's like 25% damage lost!!!!" lol. I might change that. But if using it right gained you a few %.. then it's just an opportunity for skilled players to feel challenged, while ensuring the okay players are not producing garbage (beyond whatever they were going to produce anyways.. I know we've got ice mages sometimes.. and there isn't much you can do there XD....).

In summary though- I don't think we're entirely at odds at each other, in a general sense, but perhaps on certain points we'll have diverging interests (I mean obviously I'm happily self proclaimed casual lol).

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the queue button together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

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I suspect its to stop premades , and PVP rank boosting accounts to sell wins



It being totally random stifles both.

I've gotta say, this has been one of the most pleasant conversations I've had in the forums lol.
Maybe when datacenter visit comes around we can probably do a lil bit of content together.
Maybe just chat about the state of the game in game and what not. You seem pretty chill.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Some of the initial points I don't really agree on, like I think it's fine if someone wants to live the life of trusts.. I honestly don't care (unless it is going to cause massive issues for the DF, but squadrons didn't so I assume it will be fine so far lol). But I understand your ask, and I have taken part in it before- like I've written big chunky posts on world boss events, what you might be able to do with wards for events that drive people together, Hamlet (Dark Cloud / Island Sanctuary) content for FC that includes assaults and defenses (like FFXI's Aht Urghan), etc.

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I think my one fear is that the most efficient way to do things IS Trusts, which eventually would devolve the content in FF14 into "just Trust it LOL" leaving people who want to play with others, nobody to play with.
That's the one thing I would never want for an MMO.
But I would love events like that honestly. One of the main problems of FF14 right now is that it has a lot of half-baked social foundations that has never been expanded upon.
FCs are pretty much just linkshells with buffs. Honestly I'm pretty happy about the Venue/RP scene as a whole because at least SOMEONE made use of it to make content of their own.

More works needs to be put into the game in the social side. There's a lot of very good ideas from other video games and from their very own IP that it's a little bit frustrating on why they don't bother to experiment.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I wanted to be clear that "I like" many of the casual functions of FFXIV, but I also wanted to note that I can see where somethings feel like they go a bit too far. Or alternatively maybe it should have been done in a different space, but still exist. Like it's unfortunate to change a job famous for being hard to a job that's easy. It could still be fun in their own right for both examples... BUT.... people who flocked to that job for it's gameplay feel might feel like the carpet was ripped out from underneath them. That's a bit unfortunate. Like to me WHM is the healer for when you just want it to be straight forward. So if I was making changes to healers, I might make light changes to WHM but it wouldn't change far from that sphere. Meanwhile SCH was a bit more weird before.. so I might have tried to keep that (with offensive spells / and DoTs in particular).

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I think that's the main problem about the job design right now. They're all pretty homogenized, and they all do the same exact same baseline thing with not much room for creativity and skill expression.
We can't CC the adds in E8, there's no more palisade. They've effectively removed a large part of a job's identity, feel and gameplay... without replacing any of it or even justifying it correctly.
It's literally just "boop, oh your DoTs are gone! but you have more healing tools in a game where healing checks only exist in very limited parts of the game! Have fun!"

I think the fact that a large part of WAR's identity was restored by the addition of the new Raw Intuition and Bloodwheeting proves that job feel and identity can be restored with as simple as a few button additions.
Whether or not skill ceiling can actually be restored with so little buttons however, is another story.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

In summary though- I don't think we're entirely at odds at each other, in a general sense, but perhaps on certain points we'll have diverging interests (I mean obviously I'm happily self proclaimed casual lol).

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Yeah I don't think we are. There's nothing wrong with being a casual, or being skilled at the game. I care about the ideas of people rather than what people are.
Majority of what you're saying seems to be a net positive to the game, and yeah I agree with most of them.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

I suspect its to stop premades , and PVP rank boosting accounts to sell wins
It being totally random stifles both.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Because you'll absolutely murder the other team lol. Though losing in PvP isn't too terrible since you still get a decent reward.

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Yeah but come on. Not even premades in casual? Not even a little bit of priority premade vs premade matchmaking action?
I think that's the one thing that kinda stops me from going into PvP, the fact that it's so jank to get a group of friends together for a casual game.

Game's difficulty is all over the place. I would say some solo engagements in Bozja/zadnor are harder than some synced ex fights and then you have outlier dungeons like Baldesion which has huge middle finger mechanics. I would say the issue of the game being too easy is class diversity or lack of. I know the devs love to keep every class equally balanced like they are designing a multiplayer shooter or something but that design really limits when you can do in a single player/pve setting.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

It should have been something like :

Tank quests should throw hoards at you

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What MMOs have you been playing that go to that level of 'tutorial'? I've encountered exactly zero in the years I've been playing MMORPGs.

One of the reasons I was so positive on job design in ShB was because I thought it'd be the start of a new and exciting direction in job design. And indeed, I do much prefer how most of the tanks play compared to how they used to!

But it turns out that there was nowhere to go but down, or in the best case scenario, sideways.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

What MMOs have you been playing that go to that level of 'tutorial'? I've encountered exactly zero in the years I've been playing MMORPGs.

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GW2 in the first explorer dungeon level 35 has you fight multiple groups of enemies, hell there was one route in the level 45 dungeon that you would have to fight 2-3 huge groups of enemies if you didn't sneak around them and pull them one by one. some people would consider the 8-10 mobs we get now as hoards. but even in tank quests you never really get more than like 5 which is one pack at best, or if it is a large scale battle you normall have other characters that also eat aggro so you're kinda left tanking the few mobs the game has chosen for you to hit (i still try to pull all mobs in that scenario tho regardless cause it's more interesting). i mean if you wanna use open world events as the tutorial so to speak. there's quite a few even in the earlier zones that do a better job of letting you learn your kit and specialities than the role quests even at level 50+

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

GW2 in the first explorer dungeon level 35 has you fight multiple groups of enemies, hell there was one route in the level 45 dungeon that you would have to fight 2-3 huge groups of enemies if you didn't sneak around them and pull them one by one.

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From my experience with GW2, you never ever have to enter a dungeon. Plus, that's not really a 'teaching moment' through a job quest. There are plenty of places where one had to learn how to CC properly in WoW, for instance --- thinking specifically about Sunken Temple and the green dragon area in particular. But those weren't 'job quests to teach you how to do your job properly', although I did have an experienced Shaman take two of us as hunters through that area and teach us how to CC. That game just threw things at you, like most games.

In before every job gets all their skills chained in one bottom because " muh 1-2-3 combo anxiety .. "

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

In before every job gets all their skills chained in one bottom because " muh 1-2-3 combo anxiety .. "

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You can already do that with a macro. I think if you are a dragoon and dont have a macro for some combo actions you are just suffering in vain. o.o

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

If it means anything, the crowd that wants job diversity to return is louder than it was in ShB.

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Yeah because those of us who are just now speaking up (at least I) thought that the ShB simplification was just a little experiment. I figured they’d look at job feedback from ShB and decide to reverse course. They didn’t and so those of us who held our breath so to speak are speaking up

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too :D

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too :D

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

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the issue is the average consumer can no longer "vote" or get anything done with their wallet anymore as long as there's a small percentage of players who hand them a large amount of money they could care less.

and as others have said they were fine with SHB cause they thought it'd lead to something in EW or just be an experiment which wasn't the case, i think we're past teh point of "seeing what the devs do" tbh. especially when we get things like SMN that gets defended with "oh but devs will make it feel complete later or int eh next expansion" cause we should wait for a year and a half for a fleshed out kit? i mean hell our lovable carbuncle is basically useless now, and we have like one thing to think about "can i use 2 ifrit hardcasts/1 garuda hardcast here"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too :D

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

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I felt like I waited 2+ years in ShB to see what the devs had in mind for healers, and what I got was ShB 2.0 with some QoL changes that should've come mid expac during ShB. The idea of waiting until 2023/2024 to maybe not spam 1-1-1-1 is incredibly depressing.

Return SCH's DoTs now, Yoshida!

I have a wonderful book for folks if you're looking for a deeper dive into why folks are polarized into these two camps. It's called The Growth Mindset. The basic premise is often people believe either 1. Your talents are what they are and they can't be changed (lots of implications here) or 2. You can always improve and should.

I think this fits into this discussion in the following way; someone earlier in the thread brought up basketball as metaphor. You see a dunk on TV, go to a gym, try a dunk, get brutalized in a pick up game. Go home thinking "basketball is trash, sports are trash, why are there so many rules..." instead of seeing an opportunity to get good at something and become able to dunk *Not everyone can but as a goal what's wrong with it?*

Similarly, especially with social media, streamers, etc, raiding and showing high levels of play people have the same mentality; if I have to -work- to achieve some goal obviously it's tooo hard! I should be able to walk up sneeze in the general vicinity of my keyboard and clear raids.

It's all contained in the book, in way more detail with amazing nuance.

Like, with a non-growth mindset, if you ever have to -try- it obviously means you're -bad- because the truly talented never had to -try- (a fallacious way of thinking)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

the issue is the average consumer can no longer "vote" or get anything done with their wallet anymore as long as there's a small percentage of players who hand them a large amount of money they could care less.

and as others have said they were fine with SHB cause they thought it'd lead to something in EW or just be an experiment which wasn't the case, i think we're past teh point of "seeing what the devs do" tbh. especially when we get things like SMN that gets defended with "oh but devs will make it feel complete later or int eh next expansion" cause we should wait for a year and a half for a fleshed out kit? i mean hell our lovable carbuncle is basically useless now, and we have like one thing to think about "can i use 2 ifrit hardcasts/1 garuda hardcast here"?

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Honestly, it wasn't SHBs it was the late SB that paved the floor for what was to follow and people yelled and screamed. SE didn't do anything coz their vision is something they wanna uh... Get done!

So it's a bit late to complain now :D

Embrace the "meh, let's see~" way of nihilistic gamer hopes! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sililos

No they said it was the most difficulty they have put into a fight to date and in future wont be repeating it too that level.
They will be doing future Ultimate's, they just wont be near as difficult as they made Dragonsong reprised.

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I think they were saying they were going to pull back on the production value. Compared to previous ultimates, Dragonsong had a lot fancy stuff going on with the branching story arc and tons of phases and etc etc. I think they were just saying they weren't going to keep trying to top themselves because it would quickly become too much, so at least the next Ultimate was going to be more straight forward production wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

the issue is the average consumer can no longer "vote" or get anything done with their wallet anymore as long as there's a small percentage of players who hand them a large amount of money they could care less.

and as others have said they were fine with SHB cause they thought it'd lead to something in EW or just be an experiment which wasn't the case, i think we're past teh point of "seeing what the devs do" tbh. especially when we get things like SMN that gets defended with "oh but devs will make it feel complete later or int eh next expansion" cause we should wait for a year and a half for a fleshed out kit? i mean hell our lovable carbuncle is basically useless now, and we have like one thing to think about "can i use 2 ifrit hardcasts/1 garuda hardcast here"?

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Hmm... Dumb down the MMO game... continue to put focus on monetizing games via NFTs... Wait... it all comes together now... They're using FFXIV to attract the ppl that would buy video game NFTs... >.>

wanting the healer to have a DPS rotation similar to a samurai's is NOT complexity, it's bloat for the sack of bloat. If you want more buttons to push, try weaving in more healing/buffing/debuffing on your Healer, and pepper your DPS when you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

wanting the healer to have a DPS rotation similar to a samurai's is NOT complexity, it's bloat for the sack of bloat. If you want more buttons to push, try weaving in more healing on your Healer, and pepper your DPS when you can.

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omg so true im gonna have fun by pushing 70% overheal instead of 40% because theres absolutely nothing to heal.

might as well say "if you want to press more buttons just have an unbound key that you press after every malefic"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Hmm... Dumb down the MMO game... continue to put focus on monetizing games via NFTs... Wait... it all comes together now... They're using FFXIV to attract the ppl that would buy video game NFTs... >.>

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And they would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids ruining their financial outlook.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

And they would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids ruining their financial outlook.

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Not entirely ruined

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

Not entirely ruined

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imagine seeing bitcoins and NFTs/play to earn games failing/falling/stolen left and right and still even remotely fancying the idea of doing a blockchain game jesus. but then again diablo immortal was attempted and was "successful" soooooo. (which yes wasn't a blockchain game but it just goes to show how far companies are willing to go to make quick bucks and don't care if they hurt their image or anything like that)

I'd love to heal more rather than DPS, I agree with that person

So...

When may I have a redesign to the games content that requires significant healing and thoughtful use of my kit? Where's all the content that isn't healed with reactionary filler on 20-30 second gaps?

So, short of that, give me DPS skills. I signed up to play a video game, miss me with anything else.

At the end of the day, this is a game where the tank hitting level 84 promotes them to the healer as well, rendering the healer slot "Guest."

Mindlessly dumping overheal is basically gameplay sabotage as it's literally no different than standard leeching, this isn't the hidden AFKer role so until then we have to damage and thus, I want it to be fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

I'd love to heal more rather than DPS, I agree with that person

So...

When may I have a redesign to the games content that requires significant healing and thoughtful use of my kit? Where's all the content that isn't healed with reactionary filler on 20-30 second gaps?

So, short of that, give me DPS skills. I signed up to play a video game, miss me with anything else.

At the end of the day, this is a game where the tank hitting level 84 promotes them to the healer as well, rendering the healer slot "Guest."

Mindlessly dumping overheal is basically gameplay sabotage as it's literally no different than standard leeching, this isn't the hidden AFKer role so until then we have to damage and thus, I want it to be fun.

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sorry sir heal check machine broke according to yoshi-p but i can offer you a pepsis instead in these trying times