Is the WoL actually good though?

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

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That sounds more like Elidibus' approach to being the Warrior of Light. That's why even Emet came out in the end to help put his broken companion, bereft of mind and memory, to rest.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

The quest is the Level 63 quest, "The Widow and her Love". The context is that Myste drags the WoL into finding someone he can help with his simulacrums, holding WoL's aether hostage (though admittedly by accident). He settles on Lowdy, the waitress who drugged the WoL back at Aymeric's first attempt to broker a peace conference between man and dragon. Her proctor is overzealous and hellbent on torturing her, filling her every day with misery and scorn, rather than allowing her to atone and serve out her sentence as decreed by the courts. Seeing this, WoL goes up to the proctor and asks him to tone it down. The proctor, so blinded by faith and apparently oblivious to the fact that this "concerned adventurer" is the Savior of Ishgard, draws his sword, forcing WoL to defend themselves and ultimately killing the guy.

It's not, "we goaded him to fight just to have an excuse to kill him" like Kizuya said it is.

The exact exchange:




We don't know what happened to her either, but there's no indication that she had any intent of fleeing, especially when it's mentioned that her guilt was more painful to her than even the proctor's punishments and fantasies of murdering her himself. We also know that WoL has forgiven her enough to not want to hurt her despite what she did to them.

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So what you're saying is that someone blatantly misrepresented a DRK quest in an attempt to portray it as the edgelord class they wish it was? I wish I could say I was shocked.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

This is a real nothingburger of a take when there's plenty of things the WoL does of their own volition solely because they want to.
The Bard and Dancer questlines are kicked off not because someone asked them to be better at kicking ass but because they're genuinely interested in learning to sing and dance. There's nothing requiring them to participate in the restoration of the Firmament, but they do it and become the top Skybuilder, donating huge amounts of furniture and materials for the restoration of Ishgard following the Dragonsong War. They aren't forced to solve archaeological puzzles, make gifts for orphans, bankroll the Ala Mhigan widow and orphan fund, restore artifacts, act as a schoolteacher, swear a personal vendetta against disgusting Sharlayan bread rations, help the tribes, build airships, delve into the Palace of the Dead or Heaven on High, act as a romantic wingman and officiate a wedding, support conservationist efforts, or many, many other things they're never strong-armed into doing.
Hell, the Shadows of Mhach questline starts becaues WoL hears about sky pirates in the Sea of Clouds thinks, "Cool beans. I wanna meet this guy." and they do meet that guy who invites them to bring their pals to raid a ghost airship for no reason other than they want to.
WoL is not Superman, but they have agency and tend toward forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and generosity while preferring to help their fellow man more often than not. They wouldn't help the Garlean Empire and certainly not the Ascians because they wouldn't agree with their motives and methods.

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(IMO) WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators (IMO). It's not about good or bad (IMO).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

That sounds more like Elidibus' approach to being the Warrior of Light. That's why even Emet came out in the end to help put his broken companion, bereft of mind and memory, to rest.

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(IMO) WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators (IMO). It's not about good or bad (IMO).

Are you? You are the Warrior of Light; you should be asking that question in a mirror.

DRK is one of the best storylines. It shows that the WoL has self-awareness that they are not without stains from questionable actions. And boy-oh does it manifest directly.

I think there's other job quest storylines on par with it though.

Ninja's questline for instance has better NPCs with more character to them. DRK grips a lot of players though, because it echoes what a lot of people, feel.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

(IMO) WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators (IMO). It's not about good or bad (IMO).

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Isn't this a take that you can have about any blank-slate protagonist in a video game with a linear story? Of course your character is a "puppet" following what the story says, you can't progress through the narrative otherwise. I think that should be understood as the nature of the medium, and not a literal character trait.

I do admire the fact that you're trying to reply in a direct, straightforward fashion, but I don't think that Kitzuya was actually looking for a serious response.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

DRK is one of the best storylines. It shows that the WoL has self-awareness that they are not without stains from questionable actions. And boy-oh does it manifest directly.

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I don't see a specific 'moral' message implicit in the Dark Knight storyline.

Frey's storyline is about finding 'your voice'. You don't have to be the hero, but yet you still are. Why? Sidurgu's storyline is about understanding the basis of a Dark Knight's power in their emotions towards the people that they want to protect. Myste's storyline is about accepting the weight and the responsibility of your decisions while staying true to yourself.

The resolution and synthesis of all these storylines is simple enough. You are who you choose to be, now and always. Whatever reasons that you derive for your character's actions are yours and yours alone. Hence Frey's parting line: 'Was it ever mine...?'

What's perhaps more interesting is the fact that it's also a very early exploration of how memory transference works, except that you're not inheriting the spirit of a 12000 year old entity that overwhelms and overrides your personality.

The Warrior of Light is a sadistic monster.

Do you really think the WoL is dumb enough to keep letting enemies walk away? To do nothing while people die around them despite having the power to heal them? To prevent the damage from ever occurring?

Ha! No one could be that much of a complete imbecile.

No no my friend. The WoL enjoys watching his 'friends' and innocents suffer. To allow enemies to escape and inflict more suffering, just for the joy of fighting them. We are just like Zenos. Only we are smart enough to play the dumb hero role so we can get catgirl booty during downtime.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't see a specific 'moral' message implicit in the Dark Knight storyline.

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I honestly don't know why you don't. The first thing you embrace upon rousing Fray's corpse is vigilante justice.

"The threshold we refuse to cross is a line we draw for ourselves. We fear the consequences, and people suffer for our indecision."

"Everyone who held that crystal came to conquer that fear, and became who they wanted to be. Will you be the next?"

The DRK quests up to 50 are about the WoL looking inside of themselves, and admitting that there is inner turmoil. Desires to be selfish. The self given view that the WoL is a king who sits on a throne of bones. A king of death. And it's really highlighted in the level 50 quest against yourself, Esteem, wherein Lord Drillemont and the other wards of House Durendaire not only come to your aid in battle, but seek to remind you that you are the hero they know and want you to be that sees the WoL overcome and accept their dark side.

The Sidurgu Moogle quests posit that the greater one's love for what they seek justice for or protect, the bigger their flame in the abyss. The brighter it shines, the longer shadows it casts, and therefore there is more darkness to draw power from. It's not that other ideals don't produce power, it's merely that love trumps every other one.

Myste's story is about casting judgment on others, something core to DRK's initial premise. Knowing that by casting judgment on others, usually means to kill them or harm them in pursuit of your own moral code. It's about accepting that you are not above judgment either, but self doubt is not judgment.

The overarching moral of DRK's storyline is that you shouldn't shy away from what feelings make you uncomfortable. Whether it's indignance, rage, love, or doubt. You should steel yourself, and embrace who you actually are. If you can accept yourself, then you can better serve others.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

The Warrior of Light is a sadistic monster.

Do you really think the WoL is dumb enough to keep letting enemies walk away? To do nothing while people die around them despite having the power to heal them? To prevent the damage from ever occurring?

Ha! No one could be that much of a complete imbecile.

No no my friend. The WoL enjoys watching his 'friends' and innocents suffer. To allow enemies to escape and inflict more suffering, just for the joy of fighting them. We are just like Zenos. Only we are smart enough to play the dumb hero role so we can get catgirl booty during downtime.

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Who are we supposedly letting to just bleed out? Most of the time we let whatever non named and sometimes named cnj or other healer attend to the wounded while the WoL goes to deal with whomever or whatever is needed to be defeated to afford us a breather. Not everyone's WoL is a healer. It'd also be silly to have the WoL to stop and heal people while there's still fighting happening. There's also a difference between a person who has wounds that can be easily-ish healed vs some one who's so wounded that It'd be the equivalent of a doctor who's trying to save a patient that not only has a lot of internal bleeding and other injuries but also a major artery that's been severed. Where no amount of blood pumped into them will fix the problem due to their various wounds pumping it back out too fast.

The only person who irks me with how many times they were allowed to backstab us or escape and who I'm not sure when, where or how new players are introduced to due to their original quest being one that got cut out is Lourontius. The Wood Wailer who was giving the Garleans maps because in his mind the Wood Wailers didn't pay enough. We chase him all over the Southern Shroud and only get him put into custody by temporarily joining forces with the two poaching groups. And unless you want to pull a Minority Report being proactive in trying to stop the bad before it happens tends to not work. It also has a lot of chances to make situations worse.

At this point I'm pretty sure Necrotica's a troll, she only seems to turn up here to go 'but what if the WoL is A BAD GUY' or 'but wouldn't it be good if we instead aligned with the villains', and never regularly engages with ongoing conversations, she just drops in to say things with no connection to other people after a few days. In fact, looking at her post history it seems to be her M.O. across all subforums except for PvP. ...and she seems to hate PvP, too.

I'm pretty sure we can't take seriously someone who suggested timeshares as a solution to the housing problem.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

At this point I'm pretty sure Necrotica's a troll, she only seems to turn up here to go 'but what if the WoL is A BAD GUY' or 'but wouldn't it be good if we instead aligned with the villains', and never regularly engages with ongoing conversations, she just drops in to say things with no connection to other people after a few days. In fact, looking at her post history it seems to be her M.O. across all subforums except for PvP. ...and she seems to hate PvP, too.

I'm pretty sure we can't take seriously someone who suggested timeshares as a solution to the housing problem.

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It is true, that I don't frequent the boards as often, as I might like to, but then again you can look up my play time and history to see that I tend to log in and stay busy in the actual game. Also, there is a big wide internet out there, and believe it or not, this is not the only forum I hold conversations on, I mean there are but only so many waking hours, and I'll have even less time for forum **** posting when I'm back to working full time again. Lastly, not every post merits me responding directly to. If it gets the conversation rolling, and I happen to come back in a time period that isn't a week later, and thus the person I'm responding to is no longer engaged, then I will post. Besides, unless I'm mistaken, we're not getting notifications of direct responses on this forum. I literally have to find one of my posts then search my previous post then search replies to see if anyone said anything directly to me, or interesting that I want to respond to. Like it or not, I'm only one person.

The WoL starts as a general adventurer-mercenary and develops into a hero. Whether they're doing it to be the good guy for the sake of being the good guy, or for more pragmatic reasons ("Why do you want to save the world so bad?" "Because I live here too!"), is up to the player.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

At this point I'm pretty sure Necrotica's a troll, she only seems to turn up here to go 'but what if the WoL is A BAD GUY' or 'but wouldn't it be good if we instead aligned with the villains', and never regularly engages with ongoing conversations, she just drops in to say things with no connection to other people after a few days. In fact, looking at her post history it seems to be her M.O. across all subforums except for PvP. ...and she seems to hate PvP, too.

I'm pretty sure we can't take seriously someone who suggested timeshares as a solution to the housing problem.

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Preferring villains hardly qualifies me as a troll. Just means I enjoy different things than you. Same for forums use. Like to hop in during breaks at work, make some comments, go back to work. Nothing we say in these forums will ever change anything. So why not use them to vent or just have fun?

Having longer conversations and debates within posts can be fun, but can also go in circles. Like all the Hydaelyn defenders who are objectively wrong, bad people, and have dumb faces.

But to get back on the WoL moral status. ARR we seem to be written as murder hobo for hire. While they try to change that more throughout the expansions they can never erase it. And some of us don't want them to. I would love to be able to have conversation options where my fellow scions respond with discomfort and some 'calm down WoL, there is no need to kill them all'

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Having longer conversations and debates within posts can be fun, but can also go in circles. Like all the Hydaelyn defenders who are objectively wrong, bad people, and have dumb faces.

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and this is why you got called a troll lol.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Preferring villains hardly qualifies me as a troll. Just means I enjoy different things than you. Same for forums use. Like to hop in during breaks at work, make some comments, go back to work. Nothing we say in these forums will ever change anything. So why not use them to vent or just have fun?

Having longer conversations and debates within posts can be fun, but can also go in circles. Like all the Hydaelyn defenders who are objectively wrong, bad people, and have dumb faces.

But to get back on the WoL moral status. ARR we seem to be written as murder hobo for hire. While they try to change that more throughout the expansions they can never erase it. And some of us don't want them to. I would love to be able to have conversation options where my fellow scions respond with discomfort and some 'calm down WoL, there is no need to kill them all'

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https://i.imgur.com/Qk22pIR.gif

There's many such examples though I'd highlight one in particular as to why the Warrior of Light and the Scions are morally grey at best. Namely that time when they decided to go and brutally murder a pregnant woman in Norvrandt who just so happened to be in the way as a consequence of being displaced by the actions of the protagonists themselves.

Reasons can be brought up as to why it was a grim necessity though I daresay when people have to start defending the death of pregnant women then it should not really be much of a surprise if others doubt the supposed 'overwhelming goodness' of the game's protagonists.

Of course, I suppose it helps that the pregnant woman in question was an off shoot of the Sahagin! I imagine the situation would be taken very differently by most if it was a pregnant woman who looked like Venat, Lyse or Y'shtola instead.

"Decided to go brutally murder a pregnant woman." Wow that's a hell of a take......

(Especially since the broodmother is not killed, there's a side quest chain to help her safely lay her eggs, but that wouldn't make it sound nearly as evil, right?)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

"Decided to go brutally murder a pregnant woman." Wow that's a hell of a take......

(Especially since the broodmother is not killed, there's a side quest chain to help her safely lay her eggs, but that wouldn't make it sound nearly as evil, right?)

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What exactly is not 'brutal' about a pregnant woman being put down like a rabid dog?

That aside, the broodmother you are referring to belongs to a different tribe. The one slain in Anamnesis Anyder is someone different.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

What exactly is not 'brutal' about a pregnant woman being put down like a rabid dog?

That aside, the broodmother you are referring to belongs to a different tribe. The one slain in Anamnesis Anyder is someone different.

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My mistake on which broodmother, it's been a while.

Of course, you're also leaving out any context. Like how the broodmother in question was preparing to start a war and was willing to commit genocide on the Ondo if they didn't join her, or that they were displaced because of a literal apocalypse and violently refusing any attempts at peace. But "the Scions are murdering racists" is easier, I guess.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

My mistake on which broodmother, it's been a while.

Of course, you're also leaving out any context. Like how the broodmother in question was preparing to start a war and was willing to commit genocide on the Ondo if they didn't join her, or that they were displaced because of a literal apocalypse and violently refusing any attempts at peace. But "the Scions are murdering racists" is easier, I guess.

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Huh? I think you may want to go back and read through my post again. I didn't suggest that there weren't reasons for it happening or justifications. I simply pointed out that if a particular character has to justify the murder of a pregnant woman then they're morally grey at best. I'm not suggesting everyone has to agree with that - it's just my personal thoughts on the subject.

Furthermore at no point did I suggest that the Scions were 'racist', either. Murderers? Certainly. There's plenty of lives which could have been spared but were not. Though there has been a pleasant shift towards trying to save as many people as possible as of late Shadowbringers and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore at no point did I suggest that the Scions were 'racist', either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Of course, I suppose it helps that the pregnant woman in question was an off shoot of the Sahagin! I imagine the situation would be taken very differently by most if it was a pregnant woman who looked like Venat, Lyse or Y'shtola instead.

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Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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I dont see it as racist at all. Moreso it seems to be more like, if this character wasnt ugly but actually pretty instead. Factually people react more positively and understanding towards someone they perceive as pretty or handsome. I think we even see this mirrored in game where after the omega fight he uses his female form to talk to us.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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Well, if the shoe fits...though I was referring more to her appearance rather than her race.

I thought it was interesting that the Scions approved of the idea of moving mountains in order to rescue Halric and Ga Bu who were both - conveniently - presented as 'cute' but there's only stubborn commitment to the idea of putting down a desperate broodmother despite her pregnancy and the consequences being the risk of her people dying out or at least fading into irrelevancy.

Or it's because Halric and Ga Bu are harmless while the broodmother is out ordering war and murder.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Or it's because Halric and Ga Bu are harmless while the broodmother is out ordering war and murder.

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Before a cure was developed for Tempering the Tempered were not considered to be harmless as they would inevitably try and work towards bringing forth the Primal that they were Tempered by. Tesleen died in large part due to Halric, from what I recall.

It took time, effort and resources to isolate and care for both Halric and Ga Bu. Personally I think a pregnant woman is exactly the sort of individual that the Warrior of Light and Scions should have moved mountains in order to save. Sure, it would have taken a lot of convincing and not necessarily even worked but it always made me raise an eyebrow at how quickly she was written off.

Furthermore, the territorial dispute and war was only escalated as a direct result of the method of arrival for the Scions. Namely Bismarck's magical bubble.

In the end, I don't think the circumstances matter all that much. At the end of the day the Warrior of Light and the Scions put down a pregnant woman and that, to me, places them firmly in the 'morally grey' category in my book. Which isn't the condemnation some may believe it to be but rather a reflection of reality and forced hands.

You can't really answer a virtue ethics question with deontology.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Before a cure was developed for Tempering the Tempered were not considered to be harmless as they would inevitably try and work towards bringing forth the Primal that they were Tempered by. Tesleen died in large part due to Halric, from what I recall.

It took time, effort and resources to isolate and care for both Halric and Ga Bu. Personally I think a pregnant woman is exactly the sort of individual that the Warrior of Light and Scions should have moved mountains in order to save. Sure, it would have taken a lot of convincing and not necessarily even worked but it always made me raise an eyebrow at how quickly she was written off.

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The whole Ga Bu storyline is encircled with continuous fighting of the tempered Kobolds and the rest of Eorzea. We still killed them, and they still killed us. At no point did we decide to lay down arms during this time, although we did go out of our way to figure out a way to remove the tempering, bringing the Kobolds back to a level where we could actually start to develop a relationship that did not involve death and violence.

Note that this was two-fold: prevent the Kobolds from succeeding in calling Titan to help them dominate Eorzea, but also trying to figure out a way to untemper them so that they might be reasoned with.

The solution for Halric, as provided by Tesleen herself, was "a quick, painless death was better than becoming one of the Sin Eaters". It was providence that the death of the Light Warden provided breathing room to find a solution that did not involve eating a poisoned fruit.

As for that wonderful 'pregnant mother' ... The lead up to the dungeon instance includes the following discussion:

Tolshs Aath says "It is clear that their queen will sssoon give birth. They require space to raise their young, and food for both queen and hatchlings to thrive.
Y'shtola says "Well, we can hardly fault them for that.
Tolshs Aath then talks about 'normal circumstances', followed by "They seek to build an army, and with it take revenge upon the finless. It is not a surprise. They came to us no long ago, seeking allies for the cause. We rebuffed them, of course ... Their queen, however, desires only bloodshed ..."
Y'shtola replies "I doubt this can be resolved without violence, but perhaps with a show of force we can convince them to see reason before the die is cast".

"Mom" wasn't having any of it ... one does not argue when violence is the chosen response to our arrival.

Theodric's claims in this post string are purely deontological. If you do 'X', that is morally wrong. That sort of approach works for evaluating decisions, but not for evaluating people, which is why it's irrelevant to the topic. Omega's questline touched on this principle as well.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Theodric's claims in this post string are purely deontological. If you do 'X', that is morally wrong. That sort of approach works for evaluating decisions, but not for evaluating people, which is why it's irrelevant to the topic. Omega's questline touched on this principle as well.

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Not even really deontological. Deontological duties have to applied evenly and universally in order to be true moral statements. Saying "its always bad to kill a pregnant woman" sounds wonderful if you're intention is to create a rule that both sounds great without context and condemns the Scions. Its not great when you're the one facing down a 15 foot tall pregnant woman wielding magics and a large club whose sole desire in that moment is beat you to death for the crime of not wanting a genocidal war. Self-defense would be immoral if we make that a duty, and thus the only right option is to allow your head to be caved in. I'm sure those condemning the Scions would be happy to step forward and accept that end right?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I dont see it as racist at all. Moreso it seems to be more like, if this character wasnt ugly but actually pretty instead. Factually people react more positively and understanding towards someone they perceive as pretty or handsome.

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I mean, this isn't an either/or, mutually-exclusive fact.

Racists typically tend to find the features of their preferred ethnicity (or ethnicities) beautiful and humanize those people more than they do for the features of ethnicities they dislike or despise. In fact, stating that someone is more willing to kill a thinking, sentient person based on beauty standards inherent to their race is pointing out the most basic kind of racism.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, this isn't an either/or, mutually-exclusive fact.

Racists typically tend to find the features of their preferred ethnicity (or ethnicities) beautiful and humanize those people more than they do for the features of ethnicities they dislike or despise. In fact, stating that someone is more willing to kill a thinking, sentient person based on beauty standards inherent to their race is pointing out the most basic kind of racism.

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The uggos got to die and I will not apologize.

Why didn’t the WoL express any initiative to want to help the Eulmorans who the pixies had turned into shrubs/drowned btw? Or any remorse. After all, we learned they were effectively brainwashed. Yet no one seems to comment on that after the fact or expressed any interest in trying to undo their curse.

That did always bother me a bit myself honestly, i always presumed the transformation rendered them non-aware

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Why didn’t the WoL express any initiative to want to help the Eulmorans who the pixies had turned into shrubs/drowned btw? Or any remorse. After all, we learned they were effectively brainwashed. Yet no one seems to comment on that after the fact or expressed any interest in trying to undo their curse.

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The only Eulmorans who encountered pixie wrath were attacking them. We weren't there. If we were, we'd have been fighting the Eulmorans. I didn't see the mighty army of Eulmore holding back, did you?

You are also assuming "that which is done can be undone". Turning something into a shrubbery is probably not reversable. Bringing someone back to life after drowning certainly isn't reversible. Drowning isn't a curse. Being transformed isn't a curse.

Your argument makes little sense.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Why didn’t the WoL express any initiative to want to help the Eulmorans who the pixies had turned into shrubs/drowned btw? Or any remorse. After all, we learned they were effectively brainwashed. Yet no one seems to comment on that after the fact or expressed any interest in trying to undo their curse.

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How dare we not stop the fae from.....defending themselves? Yeah, I don't get this one.

Yes, convenient exceptions are made when it's the 'bad guys' being subjected to such transformations though if someone turned Alisae into a tree I daresay the Scions would seek to do everything possible to try to reverse it. In the event that they couldn't, they'd be incredibly angry!

Of course given how the protagonists are comfort characters who cannot possibly be meaningfully harmed in any way then it's unlikely we'd be able to see such an experiment play out. How unfortunate.

It's less so the act itself so much as the double standard. During Stormblood, the Eorzean Alliance shifted from the 'defender' to the 'aggressor' but they certainly didn't just shrug and say 'they were just defending themselves' whenever Garlean experimentation/body horror was put into play. Fae body horror and transformation is little different, really.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The only Eulmorans who encountered pixie wrath were attacking them. We weren't there. If we were, we'd have been fighting the Eulmorans. I didn't see the mighty army of Eulmore holding back, did you?

You are also assuming "that which is done can be undone". Turning something into a shrubbery is probably not reversable. Bringing someone back to life after drowning certainly isn't reversible. Drowning isn't a curse. Being transformed isn't a curse.

Your argument makes little sense.

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But they explicitly state it to be a curse if you do the pixie side quests. Also…there’s that one quest i believe about the knight who got turned into a shrub to prevent him from fully dying in hopes of one day there being a cure. People thought tempering wasn’t reversible and look where we are now. Again, they were brainwashed people. They had little control over their actions, and as we saw, anyone who defied or expressed weakness was tossed aside by Ranjiit. The twins were there were they not? The people turned into shrubs are very much alive. That’s the worst part. They’re damned to be like that and all because they had little control over their actions. My argument makes sense it just seems like you don’t understand it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

How dare we not stop the fae from.....defending themselves? Yeah, I don't get this one.

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Arent we told the Fae do it regardless to anyone for shits and giggles though lol.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

How dare we not stop the fae from.....defending themselves? Yeah, I don't get this one.

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From what I recall they subject random strangers to such 'tricks' as well. Il Mheg is actually a deceptively dark place despite the bright and cheery aesthetics.

I think it's pretty interesting. I love that sort of thing. I just think it's also good to own up to the morally grey aspects of the story.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yes, convenient exceptions are made when it's the 'bad guys' being subjected to such transformations though if someone turned Alisae into a tree I daresay the Scions would seek to do everything possible to try to reverse it. In the event that they couldn't, they'd be incredibly angry!

Of course given how the protagonists are comfort characters who cannot possibly be meaningfully harmed in any way then it's unlikely we'd be able to see such an experiment play out. How unfortunate.

It's less so the act itself so much as the double standard. During Stormblood, the Eorzean Alliance shifted from the 'defender' to the 'aggressor' but they certainly didn't just shrug and say 'they were just defending themselves' whenever Garlean experimentation/body horror was put into play. Fae body horror and transformation is little different, really.

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Again, this is trying to force a deontological argument of "this thing is bad, thus all examples which resemble said thing must also be bad...no exceptions". This tends to happen a lot whenever it comes to either demonizing the Scions or justifying the Garleans.

Garlemald was forcing gruesome experiments onto captives and reluctant test subjects who were seized or conscripted as a result of Garlemald's own military campaigns...almost always, I might add, for the purpose of creating a new weapon for further conquest and subjugation. That isn't even in the same ballpark as the Pixies turning a group of hostile warriors into trees and flowers and whatnot. The Pixies were not, for example, the aggressors in this scenario, nor did their long-term goals foster an intent to be further aggressors.

I don't disagree with the general statement that a cure to Pixie transformation would probably be an ethical undertaking, since we know for a fact that the Pixies would do it to anyone, regardless of morality, but painting this as some kind of "double standard" that those Dastardly Scions are guilty of is just...not genuine, to put it politely. There's plenty of other actions of questionable ethics that the Scions can be judged on, but that...like a lot of things which involve Garlemald...is definitely NOT one of them.