In light of the recent discussions about 3rd party tools I have a bold suggestion

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

You can't discount the argument on itself so you resort to the low hanging fruit of attacking the person who made it.

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You are living in a world where people will admit that their argument has no foundation and accept that they are wrong. I'm sure it must be nice, but that world is very far separated from the kindergarten we find ourselves in on these forums.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It's the same as people discounting an entire post or opinion because of a spelling or grammar mistake. You're looking for a reason to discount what they are saying and when you find it you use your gotcha on them. It's absolutely a weapon to try to make them shut up and stop disagreeing with you. You can't discount the argument on itself so you resort to the low hanging fruit of attacking the person who made it.

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It is not the same. I wouldn't have a clue on how healers operate, but if I were to disagree on what they would want, I would need a reason to be backed by anything. I can't provide that because I have no idea what I'm talking about for healers.

It's similar to those who are not able to do the minimum yet complain on how content is too difficult. If it has to do with numbers it would be one thing, but if they stated another reason, like P3 being what it is, then they have a point to stand on. It provides context IF it has to do specifically with how the job performs in an optimal situation.

The "issue" with parsing is that some people use that information to bully and harass other players. Imo there's nothing wrong with wanting to see your own numbers and look at how to improve. It's just when you misuse what it gives you that creates a massive problem.

Then it just riles up the whole argument that eventually de-rails into a dumpster fire in the middle of a toxic landfill.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It's the same as people discounting an entire post or opinion because of a spelling or grammar mistake. You're looking for a reason to discount what they are saying and when you find it you use your gotcha on them. It's absolutely a weapon to try to make them shut up and stop disagreeing with you. You can't discount the argument on itself so you resort to the low hanging fruit of attacking the person who made it.

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It really, really isn't.

Imagine you attend a summit of doctors, and an unlicensed man off the street takes the stage and starts passionately expounding the health benefits of ingesting a mixture of lead, mercury and arsenic. Pointing out that the person is not a doctor and has no medical experience wouldn't be 'low hanging fruit' or akin to pointing out a grammatical error.

An example of a post where I pointed to someone's logs would be a tank who was irrationally angry because he felt that his healers were dpsing too much instead of healing him. His logs showed that despite being a tank running endgame content, he never uses defensive CDs and presses completely random buttons as his damage rotation. That information is immediately relevant to that persons behavior.

I too have a bold suggestion for people.

If they haven't read the Terms of Service then they should not comment on the Terms of Service.

No, no and no. When are you and others going to understand that there is no "Gray" area. ToS specifically states no 3rd party programs. It doesn't matter if the impact is small or whatever. Because it then gets to the point of where "Well this is ok so maybe we should try this" and now you have a bunch of add-ons, etc., that people are using.

You dug your grave knowing full well what could happen and now that it is happening you want to complain?

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

No, no and no. When are you and others going to understand that there is no "Gray" area. ToS specifically states no 3rd party programs. It doesn't matter if the impact is small or whatever. Because it then gets to the point of where "Well this is ok so maybe we should try this" and now you have a bunch of add-ons, etc., that people are using.

You dug your grave knowing full well what could happen and now that it is happening you want to complain?

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My point precisely,

Even though my approach seemed “apparently condescending” though be it far from the truth, it’s just the relentless crusade some of the players are attempting to pacify it & coming with unusual statements indicating it wasn’t in such itent to harm or rather being beneficial when in it was neither one & it still went against ToS rules,

Like someome labelled me as smug, here’s my stance for you -Sips red wine like a snob Elezen- hope that was creative enough

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

No, no and no. When are you and others going to understand that there is no "Gray" area. ToS specifically states no 3rd party programs. It doesn't matter if the impact is small or whatever. Because it then gets to the point of where "Well this is ok so maybe we should try this" and now you have a bunch of add-ons, etc., that people are using.

You dug your grave knowing full well what could happen and now that it is happening you want to complain?

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You're talking about how horrible things are now because people are using addons but I still haven't seen one person discuss any real detriment to their experience that came as a result of addon usage. The best I get out of any of you is a variation of "it's unfair" or, like I said in the op, a disingenuous take based in not actually knowing anything about addons. Once again, I don't use any gameplay altering addons or ACT, but the fact that others do is no skin off my nose. I loathe the idea of rotations being consolidated to single buttons but some people use addons for that purpose, and I don't care that they do. I think wow's ui is completely ugly but some people use addons to alter the ingame ui to look more like wow's because they're more comfortable with it, and I don't care that they do. It doesn't affect anyone's ingame experience, but you're talking about "and now you have" as if we've suddenly gone down some slippery slope and things are oh so horrible because of stinky addon users.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

You dug your grave knowing full well what could happen and now that it is happening you want to complain?

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This argument again.
The devs fostered these communities, allowed them to grow, and now they have to deal with the consequences of doing a 180 with no warning while continuing to remain vague about what is and isn't allowed. It isn't as if the devs didn't know this was happening. It's not like they don't know about the websites, the cosmetic mods, the various discords, etc. They left them alone and, although they've warned against using various add-ons and taken on a public stance, their private stance is just as vague as their TOS.

It's not just about the mods or add-ons, it's not just about the witch-hunts, it's not just about Vencio's need to be correct even though he can't construct a solid thought beyond an idle musing, it's all of those things, combined with how the devs have been wishy-washy on what they've taken as acceptable behavior and evidence for such behavior for reporting purposes, as well as how harshly they enforce their TOS.
To give you an example, this is like a teacher saying that there's no eating food in class letting their students eat in class as long as they're not being messy or obnoxious. Suddenly, towards the end of the year, the teacher comes up and slaps one of their students for eating in class, but still doesn't take away or make them put away the food, they just loudly announce, to the class, after all these months, that there's no eating in class, and returns to their desk to sit and grade papers before loudly complaining that they'll need to stop giving out gold stars if people are going to get hungry when taking tests.
There's no feedback besides the slapped student and passive aggressive complaining to no one, so of course people are bewildered and even upset. Meanwhile you have Mary Sue and Gary Stu off to the side snickering, pointing fingers, and raising their noses at everyone else because "the teacher SAID."

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Originally Posted by anhaato

You're talking about how horrible things are now because people are using addons but I still haven't seen one person discuss any real detriment to their experience that came as a result of addon usage. The best I get out of any of you is a variation of "it's unfair" or, like I said in the op, a disingenuous take based in not actually knowing anything about addons. Once again, I don't use any gameplay altering addons or ACT, but the fact that others do is no skin off my nose. I loathe the idea of rotations being consolidated to single buttons but some people use addons for that purpose, and I don't care that they do. I think wow's ui is completely ugly but some people use addons to alter the ingame ui to look more like wow's because they're more comfortable with it, and I don't care that they do. It doesn't affect anyone's ingame experience, but you're talking about "and now you have" as if we've suddenly gone down some slippery slope and things are oh so horrible because of stinky addon users.

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It really depends really in the direction that the tools themselves go. That said, I don't think your apathy and indifference to the situation regarding addons is a real justification for you trying to push aside or dismiss the concerns of other individuals regarding an uneven footing. If you wish to be apathetic towards the situation, then by all means. -- The situation can take a turn for the worst if the developers elect to take the course of action where addons influence encounter and mechanic design in any capacity.

Furthermore, if you think that ACT and the addons therein are limited exclusively to combat (parsing and raiding), which I least of all posit from your OP, then you yourself should really steer clear of this topic in any real capacity because addons can be quite extensive in which areas of the game they cover or can be utilized. -- I can assure you that there are addons which inarguably do fall within the realm of cheating - and in this regard, just because you feel indifference to this subject, do not expect the same courtesy from individuals.

TL;DR: Just because you don't find the situation as poor, this does not mean that the situation is in fact not poor. Furthermore, if you think addons are only utilized within the raiding and parse logging facets then you're just as clueless as everyone else as to what addons can and cannot do.

Edit: You see this is the whole problem with creating a permissible or a forbidden list of addons. Contrary to some limiting beliefs, what addons can accomplish is quite extensive. This reigns true for practically any game ever created that involves the use of addons. -- To do such requires looking at absolutely every single addon.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

No thanks,

It will still reinforce meta on the wrong hands & ultimately become a norm; its what happened to WoW & not many were happy about it,

Parse shouldn’t be a thing at all

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Ah, yes. Remove the combat log. That will go great.

Someone I raided with used act and it was interest to see my log I fixed up how I was playing. Got better numbers each week till I hit my ceiling. But I like the idea of being able to log in and see my numbers but I can under stand why many wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

TL;DR: Just because you don't find the situation as poor, this does not mean that the situation is in fact not poor. Furthermore, if you think addons are only utilized within the raiding and parse logging facets then you're just as clueless as everyone else as to what addons can and cannot do.

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Oh, spare me. You don’t think I know about shit like Anamnesis, Gshade, Textools, among others? You don’t think I was there to witness that early aoe display addon? Guess what, I still don’t give a shit. I don’t disagree with Square for not acknowledging a run that used a cheat like that, but I also don’t really care that they used it. When talking about “uneven footing” everyone seems to forget that these players are still good even without these tools. Cactbot gets filled out with callouts by people who figured them out on their own. And simply knowing what to do is not the same as actually doing it. Was it unfair that Rich Campbell got hard carried by 7 ultimate raiders for his clears? Maybe, but thinking that doesn’t take those ultimate weapons out of his inventory. Wanna put yourself on the same footing as pc players who use addons? Have one of them be a shotcaller for raid. Have one of them run ACT for each clear. Boom, even footing. And once again you claim the situation is “poor” but don’t say how in any real capacity, so forgive me if I’m no longer listening.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Oh, spare me. You don’t think I know about shit like Anamnesis, Gshade, Textools, among others? You don’t think I was there to witness that early aoe display addon? Guess what, I still don’t give a shit. I don’t disagree with Square for not acknowledging a run that used a cheat like that, but I also don’t really care that they used it. When talking about “uneven footing” everyone seems to forget that these players are still good even without these tools. Cactbot gets filled out with callouts by people who figured them out on their own. And simply knowing what to do is not the same as actually doing it. Was it unfair that Rich Campbell got hard carried by 7 ultimate raiders for his clears? Maybe, but thinking that doesn’t take those ultimate weapons out of his inventory. Wanna put yourself on the same footing as pc players who use addons? Have one of them be a shotcaller for raid. Have one of them run ACT for each clear. Boom, even footing. And once again you claim the situation is “poor” but don’t say how in any real capacity, so forgive me if I’m no longer listening.

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Once again you show how limited your understanding is of what I was even discussing. Why not re-read my message again. I specified that you're as clueless as to how powerful addons can be, making reference to those contained within the tool on your original post. The point is that the tool referenced in your post has applications that fall outside of the realm of raiding. Stop being so one-dimensional. I'm not discussing other tools, I'm discussing the addons in the particular tool you've mentioned.

Like I said in my original post, don't expect people to hold the self-same mindset as your apathetic self because you simply don't care about cheating. Do I personally care, not really? But stop throwing your toys out of the pram because people aren't equally as apathetic in the matter.

As I said in the original post this depends on the level that tools and addons therein grow to, equally the developer's response to said tools and whether these tools will be an inherent expectation for the community when the developers design an encounter. This is where issues start -- Though I suppose it is woefully obvious on the issues considering how divisive this topic is. You're right though, you aren't listening.

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Furthermore, if you think that ACT and the addons therein are limited exclusively to combat (parsing and raiding), which I least of all posit from your OP, then you yourself should really steer clear of this topic in any real capacity because addons can be quite extensive in which areas of the game they cover or can be utilized.

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Frankly speaking though, it's quite clear that this topic is a very much pointless discussion if you're just feigning "I don't care because I don't feel personally impacted"

Don’t pretend you’re listening to me either. I keep saying time and time again, there’s no real negative impact upon this game if people decide to use addons, and instead of refuting that all you can focus on is trying to discredit my argument because I’m not discussing some niche usages of ACT that no one actually uses it for save cases that get you heavily scrutinized in the raiding community for using crutches. I still don’t think people should be witch hunted in an attempt to get them banned for that, sorry! I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Don’t pretend you’re listening to me either. I keep saying time and time again, there’s no real negative impact upon this game if people decide to use addons, and instead of refuting that all you can focus on is trying to discredit my argument because I’m not discussing some niche usages of ACT that no one actually uses it for save cases that get you heavily scrutinized in the raiding community for using crutches. I still don’t think people should be witch hunted in an attempt to get them banned for that, sorry! I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

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Certain add-ons do undermine the intended difficulty of the game and trivialize the way it is meant to be played, most especially in the case of cactbot. Sure, you can lay the claim as much as you like that many players are still good with them, or can be good, but ultimately this still undermines the intended difficulty. Once again, issues will arise if such continues, regardless of your own personal feelings if there is not a line in which third-party tools cannot cross then inarguably problems will arise, where more tools and addons will cross that boundary towards cheating. Add-ons do have the potential to influence and shape how the game is designed, both with the native features eventually supported (e.g. a shield gauge on the health bar), which in itself is not bad, but when these add-ons influence the design process of fights or mechanics then regardless of how you look at it and your own personal feelings, this is a bad direction to take, most especially in a multi-platform game.

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service. They strictly prohibit cheating, regardless of the add-on that is used. Furthermore, I don't really think you should be complaining about discrediting peoples' arguments when you're already attempting to do such on the basis of whether they do or do not raid, or whether cases are or aren't niche and use-case. It is a matter of following the terms of service -- A little common sense tells you what is and isn't OK to do. Do I encourage witch hunting? Nah it's a disgusting act that is akin to harassment, regardless of whether there is or isn't an infringement of the terms - But ultimately they still didn't abide by the ToS if they got banned for it.

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I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

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Don't expect to be listened to if this is the crux of your argument. That said, I'm done giving this argument my time.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service

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Doesn't preclude anyone from criticizing the terms of service either. Cheats and QoL do not have to be simultaneously allowed. You're literally just wasting time trying to derail the conversation from anything productive.

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Doesn't preclude anyone from criticizing the terms of service either. Cheats and QoL do not have to be simultaneously allowed. You're literally just wasting time trying to derail the conversation from anything productive.

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By all means, criticize the Terms of Service, they do have some vague enough components. But this thread is hardly about criticizing them versus trying to discredit peoples' arguments regarding third-party tools because they either do not care about their argument or because they do not raid or parse, or equally because some of these add-ons are niche and therefore should not be considered.

Sorry but this entire thread is essentially unconducive to productive debate.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Kind of doesn't matter though (in terms of following the ToS) as it's not enforced unless you're reported and happen to catch a GM at the right time. If people can get away with something, they will and have done so for years now (referring to people I've come into contact with over my two years in the game). We're also never going to get an official anti-cheat with the game so I don't really see a legit solution to the problem. I also don't believe the game should have anti-cheat or any kind of automated bot moderation as that usually causes more problems than it solves (I've gotten a temp ban from a game before for saying "training".)

Personally though, I don't see an issue with the majority of add-ons outside of pvp related ones and using them in terms of official races such as WF. There are way more harmless ones out there than ones that negatively impact the game.

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There is no realistic or tangible solution to the problem. You either start cracking down on your terms of service and ensure that people abide by them when you take a hard stance on the matter. Or you give a list of permissible tools and add-ons which is not a feasible undertaking due to the necessity to constantly revise said list when features change of a given add-on or when new ones are released. Just isn't feasible unless you enjoy scouring the entire internet. Personally, I think it's clear enough already.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Certain add-ons do undermine the intended difficulty of the game and trivialize the way it is meant to be played, most especially in the case of cactbot. Sure, you can lay the claim as much as you like that many players are still good with them, or can be good, but ultimately this still undermines the intended difficulty. Once again, issues will arise if such continues, regardless of your own personal feelings if there is not a line in which third-party tools cannot cross then inarguably problems will arise, where more tools and addons will cross that boundary towards cheating. Add-ons do have the potential to influence and shape how the game is designed, both with the native features eventually supported (e.g. a shield gauge on the health bar), which in itself is not bad, but when these add-ons influence the design process of fights or mechanics then regardless of how you look at it and your own personal feelings, this is a bad direction to take, most especially in a multi-platform game.

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service. They strictly prohibit cheating, regardless of the add-on that is used. Furthermore, I don't really think you should be complaining about discrediting peoples' arguments when you're already attempting to do such on the basis of whether they do or do not raid. It is a matter of following the terms of service -- A little common sense tells you what is and isn't OK to do.



Don't expect to be listened to if this is the crux of your argument. That said, I'm done giving this argument my time.

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Kind of doesn't matter though (in terms of following the ToS) as it's not enforced unless you're reported and happen to catch a GM at the right time. If people can get away with something, they will and have done so for years now (referring to people I've come into contact with over my two years in the game). We're also never going to get an official anti-cheat with the game so I don't really see a legit solution to the problem. I also don't believe the game should have anti-cheat or any kind of automated bot moderation as that usually causes more problems than it solves (I've gotten a temp ban from a game before for saying "training".)

Personally though, I don't see an issue with the majority of add-ons outside of pvp related ones and using them in terms of official races such as WF. There are way more harmless ones out there than ones that negatively impact the game.

Personally, I always think the arguments around ACT are silly.

Both sides as it stands currently win.
Want to use ACT? If you don't stream it, you're likely fine.
Don't like someone using ACT? Screenshot them berating you or someone else over a parse and they'll catch a ban.

Literally just snitch! It's free, fast, easy, and highly effective! Other people who use ACT will agree with you choice! Because they want to continue using it and who are the only people who keep standing in their way? The ones exactly like that person who cause trouble and give ACT users a bad name. Every time you get a bad faith ACT user slapped with a timeout, you do the entire xiv world a favor. So remember! Just snitch!

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Originally Posted by Batbrat

Don't like someone using ACT? Screenshot them berating you or someone else over a parse and they'll catch a ban.

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This can still happen with ACT being legal to use and stream with. I genuinely do not understand why everyone believes it will be mutually exclusive. WoW culture has done irreparable damage to the MMO community by creating this fearful mentality.

A personal DPS graph that shows other players would have to be scaled by item level so two players of the same class with different item levels would produce the same results for the same rotations. Knowing your DPS in a group doesn't help much if everyone else in the party has an item level 100 higher than yours.

I sometimes wonder if the classes would be less homogenized if ACT didn't exist.

Then again they did remove stance dancing, emnity rotations, and any sort of skill involved in holding threat for tanks, which would have little to do with ACT as a whole. So probably not as some of the changes are just kind of bad in general and aren't related to parsing.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

A personal DPS graph that shows other players would have to be scaled by item level so two players of the same class with different item levels would produce the same results for the same rotations. Knowing your DPS in a group doesn't help much if everyone else in the party has an item level 100 higher than yours.

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This is why I feel such a thing as a DPS meter is irrelevant. Before a group ever considers parsing, they should first be looking to everyone's gear / melds / food. Is everyone in the minimum ideal setup? The next thing to look at is how they're handling mechanics and keeping their rotations going. Once you do a clean run and there's still an enrage, then it's time to look at how everyone is performing.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

No thanks,

It will still reinforce meta on the wrong hands & ultimately become a norm; its what happened to WoW & not many were happy about it,

Parse shouldn’t be a thing at all

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Grey. Irrelevant opinions.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

By all means, criticize the Terms of Service, they do have some vague enough components. But this thread is hardly about criticizing them versus trying to discredit peoples' arguments regarding third-party tools because they either do not care about their argument or because they do not raid or parse, or equally because some of these add-ons are niche and therefore should not be considered.

Sorry but this entire thread is essentially unconducive to productive debate.



There is no realistic or tangible solution to the problem. You either start cracking down on your terms of service and ensure that people abide by them when you take a hard stance on the matter. Or you give a list of permissible tools and add-ons which is not a feasible undertaking due to the necessity to constantly revise said list when features change of a given add-on or when new ones are released. Just isn't feasible unless you enjoy scouring the entire internet. Personally, I think it's clear enough already.

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They're not going to provide a list, they've said this already. They say it's against the ToS but at the same time say they can't track what people do. It shouldn't be that hard to understand what they're saying: "We're going to say this is wrong but we can't actually stop you from using them unless you make it public." They're neither cracking down or going to provide anything, it's going to be on people screwing up and livestreaming add-ons or harassing people over their parse. Otherwise, there is literally nothing that is going to happen to anyone.

That's what is clear to me.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

They're not going to provide a list, they've said this already. They say it's against the ToS but at the same time say they can't track what people do. It shouldn't be that hard to understand what they're saying: "We're going to say this is wrong but we can't actually stop you from using them unless you make it public." They're neither cracking down or going to provide anything, it's going to be on people screwing up and livestreaming add-ons or harassing people over their parse. Otherwise, there is literally nothing that is going to happen to anyone.

That's what is clear to me.

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Always as been. They always looked away as long as nobody made a mess of things publicly.

We all know people who boldy claimed they used mods in tchat disapear, we all got that one friend that always parsed in static before saying just the wrong thing at the wrong time and going up in smoke. I think most of you lot can even remember the debacle of the nsfw mods that saw another ban waves. Every now and then people get moronic thinking "hey! they won't ban us for it, we can use those things willy nilly!" utterly forgetting that every now and then people DO get banned over it, and that every two years almost like clockwork there's another massive ban waves for the same reasons.

It's against TOS. We know they know some use them, and they don't go gestapo on their ass as long as nobody talk about it, show them or publicize them. It's the literal first fucking rule of Fight Club : you don't speak about Fight Club.

Just remember that, keep quiet if you use them, don't show them on stream if you do, don't even fucking think about mentioning them at all. If you stream and can't live without mods, learn to live without them. At least until this blow over one way or another.

I don't use mods myself but I know people who do, and I don't want to find some of my friends banned because suddenly this year was the year that broke the camel back regarding mods.

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Originally Posted by Wolfund

Always as been. They always looked away as long as nobody made a mess of things publicly.

We all know people who boldy claimed they used mods in tchat disapear, we all got that one friend that always parsed in static before saying just the wrong thing at the wrong time and going up in smoke. I think most of you lot can even remember the debacle of the nsfw mods that saw another ban waves. Every now and then people get moronic thinking "hey! they won't ban us for it, we can use those things willy nilly!" utterly forgetting that every now and then people DO get banned over it, and that every two years almost like clockwork there's another massive ban waves for the same reasons.

It's against TOS. We know they know some use them, and they don't go gestapo on their ass as long as nobody talk about it, show them or publicize them. It's the literal first fucking rule of Fight Club : you don't speak about Fight Club.

Just remember that, keep quiet if you use them, don't show them on stream if you do, don't even fucking think about mentioning them at all. If you stream and can't live without mods, learn to live without them. At least until this blow over one way or another.

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Pretty much this.

>Make thread asking people who don't do content and don't know what they're talking about to stop giving misinformed opinions
>People who don't do content and don't know what they're talking about fill the thread with their misinformed opinions
>mfw
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/76...0148432966.png

I could care less if players use mods and 3rd party stuff. The difference is when they flaunt it in game or record it like on Twitch.

Use it and keep it to yourselves, but be ready for any consequences that minght happen.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Try staying in your own lanes. I've seen too many disingenuous or outright misinformed takes from people who have no idea how raiding or parsing works. If you have no knowledge on the subject then try not speaking on it. I think we would all be happier that way, personally, in my opinion. This is me coming at you as a (former) raider who doesn’t use ACT. Just shut up. Please.

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Too reasonable. People? Staying in their own lane? Impossible. We can't have civility and basic fact checking!

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

This argument again.
The devs fostered these communities, allowed them to grow, and now they have to deal with the consequences of doing a 180 with no warning while continuing to remain vague about what is and isn't allowed. It isn't as if the devs didn't know this was happening. It's not like they don't know about the websites, the cosmetic mods, the various discords, etc. They left them alone and, although they've warned against using various add-ons and taken on a public stance, their private stance is just as vague as their TOS.

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The ToS wasn't vague. It specifically stated no 3rd party programs allowed. How is it hard to understand that? And when ACT, etc., was presented to the Dev's at the time, it's impact was low and they seemed to not care as long as nothing bad happened. However, the TOS still stands. Just because they didn't do anything about it than doesn't mean you can continue to break the rules and everything will still be ok later.

You can and still be banned. It doesn't matter if the Dev's take it lightly - The ToS is basically like the 10 commandments. Unless the ToS changes then I highly recommend you follow the ToS.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

I could care less if players use mods and 3rd party stuff. The difference is when they flaunt it in game or record it like on Twitch.

Use it and keep it to yourselves, but be ready for any consequences that minght happen.

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And that's pretty much Yoshi-Ps stance. Keep it to yourself. Don't show it or promote it on a stream. Don't talk about it in game. They can't read your PC and have no desire to. I have no sympathy for those who know this stance and still willfully go against the TOS. That's the way it's been since 2014.

One streamer compared it to speeding. You know the laws, and you may think they're stupid, but you agreed to them when you got your license. If you choose to speed, don't get caught. If you are caught, it's on you for speeding.

Best thing to do is reach out and make them aware that we want better UI elements, which they have acknowledged they are working on. Just don't expect a parser. That will not happen because it will be used to exclude people from parties. I still remember playing The Secret World years ago and people wouldn't allow players into a group unless they had a certain level of attack power. It will happen in this game as well. That's just human nature.

I'm fairly certain most players are in the group where they would probably quit if there were zero addons, meters or fflogs, but there's no loss in just throwing them up, breaking the rules and if you get caught and banned, then you quit. They literally don't care that the ToS forbids it, they'll take the risk because it's that or find another game.

I think it'd be interesting if a solid MMO that combined the quality of story and the job system of ff14 with the smooth combat and fun extras of WoW was released, that wasn't purely hardcore but also treated players like they had a functioning brain and embraced addons that weren't cheating. I'd genuinely be interested if FF14's anti-performance safety bubble mindset would pull it ahead, or whether it would take a hard hit to subs.

Thanks genuinely for reminding me I need to add popcorn to my online food order.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

The ToS wasn't vague. It specifically stated no 3rd party programs allowed. How is it hard to understand that? And when ACT, etc., was presented to the Dev's at the time, it's impact was low and they seemed to not care as long as nothing bad happened. However, the TOS still stands. Just because they didn't do anything about it than doesn't mean you can continue to break the rules and everything will still be ok later.

You can and still be banned. It doesn't matter if the Dev's take it lightly - The ToS is basically like the 10 commandments. Unless the ToS changes then I highly recommend you follow the ToS.

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Someone doesn't remember the Live Letter with YoshiP where he actually joked about how Vague the ToS is, yes the one where he talked about ACT.