job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

Most of this stuff looks ok. I just can't understand why they're boosting monk.

Hm... Reinheart's translation said that Steel Cyclone's range was being reduced, whereas Okipuit said its attack power is being reduced. Both would be fair for balancing IMO but er... which is correct?

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Originally Posted by PartyTime

Most of this stuff looks ok. I just can't understand why they're boosting monk.

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Same reason they're boosting DRG, plus none of us are playing with the changes now to determine just how potent of a change it is.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Hm... Reinheart's translation said that Steel Cyclone's range was being reduced, whereas Okipuit said its attack power is being reduced. Both would be fair for balancing IMO but er... which is correct?

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I'd go with the one Oki posted, since from what I see, it's basically stating the power will be lower hitting x amount of targets, basically reducing it's overall potency the more targets it hits.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

That was during closed beta period, since that's not even my website ;p, and as you can see:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/257-Elexia

It doesn't even have my main character selected, but my blm mule, so go figure eh?

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Yeah, the way the site works is a little weird.

If you want to display your main character, hit "Settings" at the top right of this page. Then choose "Edit Character", and click the yellow star by the portrait of the character you use.

so still not going to add some aoe attack for PLD?

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Originally Posted by Rane

Yeah, the way the site works is a little weird.

If you want to display your main character, hit "Settings" at the top right of this page. Then choose "Edit Character", and click the yellow star by the portrait of the character you use.

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Yeah, since I never touched it when they forced display and it only showed that character and not the other 3 on my account.

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Originally Posted by Ricepot

so still not going to add some aoe attack for PLD?

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Probably not AoE damage for a while anyway.

So basically, Steel Cyclone has lower AoE damage but also a lowered cost on the same timer. Rampage increases parry rate now which actually makes it better since defense doesn't mean a whole lot.

Wooo Goring Blade combo damage increase......sure will help all those Palainds keep hate, maybe. Hallowed Ground might affect more types of attacks now? It's pretty vague. I'm going to assume that this now includes some magical attacks which is okay.

I really don't see this helping the whole WAR > PLD thing.

Not going to change unless they focus more on PLD, since the other problem is it has lower base HP than WAR does which gives it a slightly better survivability rate by default, but a good PLD is still a valuable asset to have. The main thing regarding WAR is it's also a DD which based on how enmity works in this game (as well as XI) damage is more constant generation in the long run which is what put WAR ahead, but PLD can work better for single target mobs if the PLD itself is well geared and prepared.

I guess we have to reserve final judgment on PLD damage until after the patch but that's really not looking terribly promising. I don't think SE acknowledges the size of the usefulness gap between those two jobs in the tank role right now.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Hm... Reinheart's translation said that Steel Cyclone's range was being reduced, whereas Okipuit said its attack power is being reduced. Both would be fair for balancing IMO but er... which is correct?

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Go with Okipuit's
Physical area of effect attack damage will be reduced.

JP text

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物理範囲攻撃の威力が引き下げられます。

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Physical range attacks effect will be decreased -

and doesn't say nothing about damage so I translated that way.

The BRD change is indeed unneccesary. Light Shot is NOT auto attack it is a skill, it takes up a spot on my action bar. No other classes auto attack works like Light Shot. Arc/Brd does in fact have auto attack I punch it in the face, or the rear as it may be. If you want to give me a real auto attack with arrows and then give me a real skill on my action bar, so be it to the change, other wise leave my reset of my timer for my SKILL alone. This is a nerf no if's and's or but's about it.

Goring Blade and Riot blade's effects are pretty strong, though. It's really easy to get back attacks off when enemies are in the middle of weaponskills too.

If melee DD are buffed enough that they are very desirable to bring along to groups, PLD will be a lot more useful due to Holy Succor allowing the PLD to help the WHMs deal with AOE damage as well as Divine Veil's regen effect combined with regular Regen recovering an obscene amount of damage really quickly allowing melee to shrug off AOE damage.

Re: the BRD/ARC "nerf", it will really only affect like 2 of your weaponskills. The other WS animations are too long that you will be unable to shoot that your timer will be up anyway. As was said before, the melee can't auto-attack in between WS's without waiting for timers so bow attacks should work the same.

Here is to hoping that PLD's are a better tank than WAR now...I really want to do focus on DD as my warrior not tank.

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Originally Posted by Geo

Yep just sing. All we really need, they're lowest tier DPS.

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Lowest Tier? Maybe if you're using Warped or some other low level arrows, or not taking into consideration that arrows themselves have base a damage that's stacked with the bow. Put a Ifrit's Bow with Cobalt arrows in a competent players hands and let them go to town they can put the numbers up there with the rest of the DD classes with relative ease.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Not going to change unless they focus more on PLD, since the other problem is it has lower base HP than WAR does which gives it a slightly better survivability rate by default, but a good PLD is still a valuable asset to have. The main thing regarding WAR is it's also a DD which based on how enmity works in this game (as well as XI) damage is more constant generation in the long run which is what put WAR ahead, but PLD can work better for single target mobs if the PLD itself is well geared and prepared.

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Agreed, but I'm half thinking the parry buff to Rampage might inadvertently backfire making WAR an even better mitigation tank depending on how significant the boost is.

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Originally Posted by Nikkita

The BRD change is indeed unneccesary. Light Shot is NOT auto attack it is a skill, it takes up a spot on my action bar. No other classes auto attack works like Light Shot. Arc/Brd does in fact have auto attack I punch it in the face, or the rear as it may be. If you want to give me a real auto attack with arrows and then give me a real skill on my action bar, so be it to the change, other wise leave my reset of my timer for my SKILL alone. This is a nerf no if's and's or but's about it.

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Seconding this. have no idea what square enix's mentality is with needing to balance the classes every damn patch. This has been a trend since ffxi and it needs to stop. What could their mentality possibly have been nerf archer and bard like this? Every other dd has auto attack that acts like light shot now will yes, but you also have to remember that every other DD class has high damage weapon skills. The only damaging weaponskill that is on par with say howling fist is quick nock and thats on a 3 minute cool down. Bloodletter gets an honorable mention but only if you stick the dot.

Make your classes and jobs fun to play, and stop shitting on the ones that already are.

Where's my 30s Quick Nock recast?!

BRD doesn't need to position to combo and can stay out of range of AOE.

Seriously, you have songs and contribute so much more to a party no one is going to care if you can't get 2 extra shots total in a combo.

In FFXIV's case: They're rebuilding the game from the ground up and have been proving time and and time again that there's a greater overarching plan in mind so what doesn't make sense now will with the next update along with 2.0, this is why they're rebalancing everything. In FFXI's case: They didn't rebalance "every VU" or even "every other", they only are now because of the cap raise and the world not technically raising along with it. (No new Add-on or Expansion designed solely for level 95-99 for example.)

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Originally Posted by Estellios

BRD doesn't need to position to combo and can stay out of range of AOE.

Seriously, you have songs and contribute so much more to a party no one is going to care if you can't get 2 extra shots total in a combo.

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They certainly don't care when I'm mostly there to deal with adds in Garuda or a buff-bitch >.>, hell people don't care to the point if the BRD is naked (especially in parties) as long as they sing their songs lol.

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Originally Posted by Req

Seconding this. have no idea what square enix's mentality is with needing to balance the classes every damn patch. This has been a trend since ffxi and it needs to stop. What could their mentality possibly have been nerf archer and bard like this? Every other dd has auto attack that acts like light shot now will yes, but you also have to remember that every other DD class has high damage weapon skills. The only damaging weaponskill that is on par with say howling fist is quick nock and thats on a 3 minute cool down. Bloodletter gets an honorable mention but only if you stick the dot.

Make your classes and jobs fun to play, and stop shitting on the ones that already are.

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Yeah but bard also get the easiest combos. Other DD have to line up their combos and often have their combos completely screwed up by mobs moving or turning especially with current primal fights. It's really not a 'nerf', the only thing it does is account for the auto attack delay that other classes have...if you don't agree it taking up a skill slot then maybe petition for archer to actually have an autoattack like they have in alot of other games now.

EDIT; an autoattack that isn't an ass-tarded punch.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Same reason they're boosting DRG, plus none of us are playing with the changes now to determine just how potent of a change it is.

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The difference is that DRG is currently really in need of the boost it's the lowest DPS melee jobs there is where as mnk is one of the highest. A skilled player can easily and substantially out parse most other jobs on monk.

Monk is one of the classes I actually considered fairly balanced already.

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Originally Posted by PartyTime

The difference is that DRG is currently really in need of the boost it's the lowest DPS melee jobs there is where as mnk is one of the highest. A skilled player can easily and substantially out parse most other jobs on monk.

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It's lower in spike damage, but DoT damage it's still pretty up there if the LNC/DRG is competent since the main purpose is firing off constant combos, which is quite hard for the 'basic player' to do.

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Originally Posted by PartyTime

The difference is that DRG is currently really in need of the boost it's the lowest DPS melee jobs there is where as mnk is one of the highest. A skilled player can easily and substantially out parse most other jobs on monk.

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Only versus single target, we get pretty screwed in terms of AoE since we have literally 1 AoE attack and this game loves it some AoE so giving us a bit of limelight in terms of single target DD is only fair x.x

EDIT; Also I hope the benediction change is a very drastic aoe increase. Like given that it's a 15 minute timer and it's just a single use cure I totally wouldn't be against it hitting everyone in the instance no matter where you're stood. :p

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Only versus single target, we get pretty screwed in terms of AoE since we have literally 1 AoE attack and this game loves it some AoE so giving us a bit of limelight in terms of single target DD is only fair x.x

EDIT; Also I hope the benediction change is a very drastic aoe increase. Like given that it's a 15 minute timer and it's just a single use cure I totally wouldn't be against it hitting everyone in the instance no matter where you're stood. :p

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Not only do we only have one AoE, we have one AoE on a 40 sec. recast. Dragoons definitely have a wonderful mix of single-target and AoE damage skills. With how AoE heavy things have become, they're doing pretty well these days.

How bout those blm nerfs? only job that could drop a certain primal from 60% to 0%.

Nevermind that, there are warriors doing aoe dmg! Get the nerf stick someone!

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

They just need to put the enmity down on regular jump instead of elusive, and drg will be perfect. Nothing more annoying than being punted 30 ft away just so you don't pull aggro.

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No, I'm happy with the re-positioning factor of Elusive Jump. We can slot Archer skills for hate management, EJ is more of a "Oh crap get out of AoE!" skill. The hate drop helps keep us on tabs with the Enmity bleed everyone else who gets hit suffers.

I'm in a 'wait and see' mode, but very excited about Dragoon/Lancer. Melee in general seem to have gotten a significant boost, which is great considering Ranged was really starting to take over. Maybe now more various builds will get encouraged.

I wonder what the full extent of Jump's evasion will be...

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I wonder what the full extent of Jump's evasion will be...

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Probably like super jump from XI depending on how server latency will make or break it.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Yeah but bard also get the easiest combos. Other DD have to line up their combos and often have their combos completely screwed up by mobs moving or turning especially with current primal fights. It's really not a 'nerf', the only thing it does is account for the auto attack delay that other classes have...if you don't agree it taking up a skill slot then maybe petition for archer to actually have an autoattack like they have in alot of other games now.

EDIT; an autoattack that isn't an ass-tarded punch.

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Easy combo's as long as you are able to maintaine distance. I find myself in situations all the time where I can't keep the necessary distance, ie running through AV, Princess in CC, Off and on during Mog..

You mention that your combo's get screwed up because the mob moves.. because that never happens to a Brd, it never moves in to close for various reasons...

But the point being really is Light Shot is a SKILL , it has it's own timer, I have auto attack I just don't get to use it. (not that I'd want to) As I said the change would be fine if I had a real auto attack and they gave me a real skill to replace it. They want to balance actually balance it by giving a real auto attack and a real skill

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Originally Posted by AjoraOak

How bout those blm nerfs? only job that could drop a certain primal from 60% to 0%.

Nevermind that, there are warriors doing aoe dmg! Get the nerf stick someone!

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Silly rabbit Mi'quote, you don't touch the Developer's favorite job. :eyeroll:

Anyways, it's already been said that nerfs should be hesitated against in favor of buffs. We'll see what the adjustments do before crying that BLM is still too overpowered. A lot of physical damage has been enhanced and ease of dealing damage made this patch. Let's see how it plays out.

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Originally Posted by PartyTime

The difference is that DRG is currently really in need of the boost it's the lowest DPS melee jobs there is where as mnk is one of the highest. A skilled player can easily and substantially out parse most other jobs on monk.

Monk is one of the classes I actually considered fairly balanced already.

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I'm guessing they think it's a way to make monk more appealing to the players. While we do have decent damage already, we are still mostly unwanted because of the close range. We'll see. Whatever future nerfs are incoming, I'll have fun on my buffed monk this patch :D

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The physical defense down effect will be increased.

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bonus. lol

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Not only do we only have one AoE, we have one AoE on a 40 sec. recast. Dragoons definitely have a wonderful mix of single-target and AoE damage skills. With how AoE heavy things have become, they're doing pretty well these days.

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This is true. Mnks has been only single target mobs DPSer. If u go into a party with a mnk and a DRG and see who does the most dmg throughout the whole entire pt, have u seen mnks out dps a drg in a pt before? The mobs die very quickly and repop very quickly. We only have that one WS Aura Pulse to AoE them. If 2.0 is going to be about single targeted mobs, then this would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by NAC_NA

The algorithm for calculating the following parameters has been revised:

Critical Hit Rating / Critical Hit Attack Power / Magic Critical Hit Rating

* Players will find the impact of these parameters more pronounced when facing higher-level enemies.

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Mmmm is this good or bad....

Wow, Steel Cyclone TP cost was reduced and timer untouched.
I'm in a state of shock right now.

Hopefully it's a good thing, because Crit hit rating is pretty bad >.> IMO

lol, they should change the name of "Invincible" to "Mostly Invincible" :P

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

lol, they should change the name of "Invincible" to "Mostly Invincible" :P

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i kinda read it two ways!

ONE: Just like it was before all physical attacks are 0. And now after hot fix its most physical attacks are 0.
TWO: most attacks are 0 maybe including magic attacks since it doesn't state physical attacks only like before hot fix.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

lol, they should change the name of "Invincible" to "Mostly Invincible" :P

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Prolly just means we can't block things like Primals 2hr like someone mentioned before.

I like the change to Benediction, every time I've used it in the past, it seemed to miss a pt member or two.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

lol, they should change the name of "Invincible" to "Mostly Invincible" :P

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Funnily enough, neither of those is its name...

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Originally Posted by stanleyyoung

i kinda read it two ways!

ONE: Just like it was before all physical attacks are 0. And now after hot fix its most physical attacks are 0.
TWO: most attacks are 0 maybe including magic attacks since it doesn't state physical attacks only like before hot fix.

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I was just being a smart-ass. You're not exactly invincible if you take damage from attacks.