Thoughts on PVP balancing - before nerfing war/rdm/drg/etc

* Balance is all over the place right now. Did they even test their game mode ?

Warrior is completely broken (who thought Primal Rend was a balanced ability ????????????)

Samourai-Red Mage-White Mage are too good.

Paladin, Bard and Black Mage are completely worthless (pretty much an instant lose if you have a Paladin on your team).

Purify needs to last longer for CC immunity. With the amount of CC in this mode ...

* Cheaters are all over the place

Infinite MP, +++++ speed. Knowing Square-Enix they won't do anything about it like they did with cheaters in PVP before 6.1.

White Mage Cure 2 bug that player abuse.

* What is going on with the ressurection ??

Why do I need to load back after the C/D ? Who thought it was a good idea to load for an extra 5 seconds ???

* Only solo queue ??

Why ?????????? Me and my friends were excited to play all 5 together and we can't.

* Chat system is horrible

Why can't we type anything ???

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Originally Posted by Ryan77k

The idea that climbing is more about skill than it is what jobs are currently overperforming monstrously compared to others. Take it from me, who is stubbornly playing GNB despite it being easily one of the weakest jobs in PvP right now, there's only so much one person can do when limited by the devs themselves. And even when I outperform the rest of my team in spite of that, I still lose significantly more often than I win. But if you wanna just disregard the horrendous position that balancing is in right now, feel free. Your sub.

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I"d argue you play the weakest by far

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Originally Posted by MagiMog

* Balance is all over the place right now. Did they even test their game mode ?

Warrior is completely broken (who thought Primal Rend was a balanced ability ????????????)

Samourai-Red Mage-White Mage are too good.

Paladin, Bard and Black Mage are completely worthless (pretty much an instant lose if you have a Paladin on your team).

Purify needs to last longer for CC immunity. With the amount of CC in this mode ...

* Cheaters are all over the place

Infinite MP, +++++ speed. Knowing Square-Enix they won't do anything about it like they did with cheaters in PVP before 6.1.

White Mage Cure 2 bug that player abuse.

* What is going on with the ressurection ??

Why do I need to load back after the C/D ? Who thought it was a good idea to load for an extra 5 seconds ???

* Only solo queue ??

Why ?????????? Me and my friends were excited to play all 5 together and we can't.

* Chat system is horrible

Why can't we type anything ???

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We're essentially paying to beta test.

change mch insta kill to crit chance. 3-5% chance to insta kill me my ass. feels like the math is wrong its like 30%

RPR enshroud in pvp should not be able to be disabled because its lb is hot garbage atm

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WAR and WHM need to be nerfed into the ground. There is ZERO excuse for the way primal rend functions right now and WHM LB charges TOO FAST for the amount of utility it does. The LB needs to charge slower and it needs to lose several of its functions.

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Nerf warrior and whm into the ground and tanks and healers will just disappear from high level play.

WAR and WHM aren't pushing other healers and tanks out. There's no healer slot for teams, there's no tank slot either.

Tbh CC should just be a dps only mode leave the tanks and healers for frontline's

I dunno, I feel like the nerfs I want are rather minimal compared to some. There's like... 3 changes I'd make?
WHM LB to 90 secs instead of 60. The glitch should be patched but that's not so far a nerf as it is just fixing the game.
WAR's Primal Rend 20 or 25 seconds instead of 15
NIN's ranged mudras toned down in damage very slightly. I don't want a massive hit, just a teeny one.

The rest really I just want buffs. Being one of the best jobs doesn't mean it should get nerfed. There will ALWAYS be a 'best job' and there will always be a dream team composition. Instead, just make sure each job feels strong in their own way and not too awful in comparison.

Really, if we can buff DNC, GNB, SCH, MNK, PLD, and RPR, maybe tweak some stuff here or there for QoL and consistency for the rest, I actually think the game would be in a good spot.
If you get extremely angry at job balance, or find yourself blaming the fact they picked a strong job instead of adapting, you'd odds are feel the same for the new 'best jobs' if WAR/WHM got nerfed. I think we shouldn't be wanting to many nerfs to anything, and instead focus on giving the player more options and interesting tools to use with every other job.

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Originally Posted by HalinFluffyBuns

Tbh CC should just be a dps only mode leave the tanks and healers for frontline's

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Do you really, honestly think SE is going to take their new, accessible "Let's get everyone we can to try pvp mode" and then go "nah, let's make it so half the playerbase can't participate"?

pvp forums need to touch grass... more than usual. lol

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Nerf warrior and whm into the ground and tanks and healers will just disappear from high level play.

WAR and WHM aren't pushing other healers and tanks out. There's no healer slot for teams, there's no tank slot either.

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No, they're pushing everyone out with how bonkers they are. Bringing them down to earth isn't making tank and healers disappear. Unless you're implying they only exist in high level play because of warrior and white mage. Which then, further reiterates the fact they are indeed, overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

The rest really I just want buffs. Being one of the best jobs doesn't mean it should get nerfed. There will ALWAYS be a 'best job' and there will always be a dream team composition. Instead, just make sure each job feels strong in their own way and not too awful in comparison.

Really, if we can buff DNC, GNB, SCH, MNK, PLD, and RPR, maybe tweak some stuff here or there for QoL and consistency for the rest, I actually think the game would be in a good spot.
If you get extremely angry at job balance, or find yourself blaming the fact they picked a strong job instead of adapting, you'd odds are feel the same for the new 'best jobs' if WAR/WHM got nerfed. I think we shouldn't be wanting to many nerfs to anything, and instead focus on giving the player more options and interesting tools to use with every other job.

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I can agree with this which is why my big talking points are always cc prevention (purify being broken) and class base kits. We have a mode that heavily incentivizes CC. Maybe the dev team didn't anticipate this, maybe they thought Purify would be more effective, maybe they didn't calculate the absolute zerg rush a 3 second stun could result in for a party of people somehow, I don't know. But with that knowledge we now have glaring gaps in the kits of several classes where they have to basically stay out of range and if anything breathes on them wrong they die. This is amplified by the lack of proper communication tools with the rest of your team and being able to do premades where some classes could shine if given the proper support.

SGE can do a ton of dps but I can barely shield my party half the time except for in bursts and it really sucks having zero way to assist the party with any CC or other skills when classes like WHM have so many passive damage/protection skills and cc curation and stun. Needless to say I don't think CC should be "removed" but the current iteration should not allow for a specific tank to just steam roll people because they can, at range, stun, leap in, and destroy and if the server eats the purify they'll get stunned again by the rest of the party. Focusing on targets and stuff I get, but if I were playing WHM not only coudl I purify I could divine veil myself on the retreat, giving a huge edge on pressuring that class at a basic level.

So at this point I just want more CC for more classes and/or balancing the CC to allow for more skill play instead of just zerg rushing everything with classes that can cc with reckless abandon.

When I sit down and think about it, if it wasn't for the cc spam, I probably wouldn't have much complaint about the systems outside of minor tweaks to classes. But man when you look at a GNB to a WAR, or a SCH to a WHM, it's very obvious which one will perform better. People see those big numbers on GNB and think it'll be OP or balanced because it has more burst but you can't burst when people can walk away from your LB, your biggest hitting skill is dependent on being on top of people, and you can't tank if there isn't a tank on the other team lol. Big dps means nothing if someone can literally just...lock you out of doing any dps for too long.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I"d argue you play the weakest by far

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Having beat my head against the wall trying to find a way to make GNB work I agree. Especially when matchmaking (trying to anyways) puts one tank and one healer as much as it can which results in a GNB vs WAR and WAR can just roflstomp a GNB unless very specific conditions are met.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Nerf warrior and whm into the ground and tanks and healers will just disappear from high level play.

WAR and WHM aren't pushing other healers and tanks out. There's no healer slot for teams, there's no tank slot either.

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There's not supposed to be slots for them. The new system is intended to be role agnostic with slight flavors from each role.

Have you even looked at the WHM's LB descirption?

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Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 18,000 to all enemies in a straight line before you.
Additional Effect: Stun
Duration: 3s
Additional Effect: Grants Temperance
Temperance Effect: Increases damage dealt and healing potency by 10%, and grants Regen to self and nearby party members within 30 yalms
Cure Potency: 4,000
Duration: 15s

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That is insane for something that charges as fast as it does. I literally had a match last night where I get hit by whm LB before the crystal in mid even unlocked.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it acted something like Moira's beam from overwatch where it damaged players and healed teammates, but this thing damages players, stuns them, gives regen to the team and increases damage done to enemies. I'm sorry, but that LB is outright broken.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Do you really, honestly think SE is going to take their new, accessible "Let's get everyone we can to try pvp mode" and then go "nah, let's make it so half the playerbase can't participate"?

pvp forums need to touch grass... more than usual. lol

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I mean if SE can't even have balanced classes for a 5v5 setting why should we the playerbase suck it up and deal with it? if we go against cc mgee WAR or exploiting Cure 2 WHMS

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There's not supposed to be slots for them. The new system is intended to be role agnostic with slight flavors from each role.

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While it's "supposed" to be role agnostic, the matchmaking seems to disagree as 75% of the time it's almost always trying to aim for one tank and one healer in every match, until you end up with sometimes 3 healers vs two tanks and a healer, or three tanks vs 2 healers, etc. The issue is if we wanted to have that system it needs to be more clearly defined.

Right now there ARE roles in the pvp mode regardless of how it's intended to be whether based on their kit or based on current play.

1. Tanks - Harassment/CC of the crystal, the defender of the point to keep it just being ENTIRELY a zerg rush. Right now I judge most tanks by their ability to do this. They created this standard when they made Tank do what it does. Not only can it aoe stun (perfect for taking back a point or defending it) it can move players, meaning it can push people off/pull people off the crystal, allowing for battlefield management. Something I think only DRK has similarly. The ability to physically MOVE a player should not be understated as this could be the difference between a win and a loss when the crystal is on the opponent's doorstep.

2. Healers - Obviously heal and utility to the party. Something that isn't super balanced at the moment. SGE has a metric ton of dps but little utility outside of Pnuema and picking at people from the back of the fight. Zero CC skills to utilize and no way to punish anyone being in their face due to small hp pool without kardia'ing them selves which means they are providing nothing to the rest of the party. A WHM has several methods to deal with this like CC/Stun/Divine Veil, etc. If Purify worked better this might be less of a problem but it doesn't. AST can heavy bind people with dual cast in a blink, buff their party with cards, and/or burst four heals back to back if absolutely necessary.

3. Ranged DPS - MCH is very clearly designed like its pve equivalent as a sniper/crit monster, but BRD and DNC are clearly designed around utility due to their low damage output and other buff skills. The issue is without premade they underperform at this role and are therefore a detriment in the current "meta" of Zerg Rush + CC stun spam.

4. Magical DPS - Tactical Nukes. BLM a little underpowered unless the party helps keep them alive, but RDM and SMN can absolutely wreck you if you let them and deal with you at range so you have to plan around either pushing past the opponents front line to get to them or dealing with the immediate threat of tank+DPS zergs before pushing through to them, maintaining sustain throughout.

5. Melee DPS - Get in and burst/Harass players defending crystal or trying to stay at range. If they're allowed to go unchecked can wreck you.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

Part 2

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The issue is they have several exceptions to these "roles" that feel like they designed some classes with this in mind and then "forgot" or didn't think further about how having some classes absolutely excel at certain things would affect the game mode. If a DRG and SAM have more dps and more defense and more sustain, what place is there for a GNB who is slow to adapt due to Junction and not nearly as much burst as those dps can provide?

If they wanted to make it where some DPS could "serve" as tanks (which I believe the matchmaking agrees with due to almost always if I don't have a tank ending up with a DRG or SAM on my team but I could be reading into it too much) they needed to be more clear about that role as well as right now there's a huge kit disparity. If it's intended to be agnostic then why despite not having THAT Much more HP than melee dps is GNB given zero mitigation tools where DPS classes like SAM have more mitigation and more dps to provide the party? If your (usually) one "tank" spot is filled in with a GNB or PLD you're already at a disadvantage. This has to be balanced around and currently isn't.

It's not to say these other classes don't have things they COULD bring to the party, but they pale in comparison with the current random matchmaking and inability to deal with or dish out CC.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There's not supposed to be slots for them. The new system is intended to be role agnostic with slight flavors from each role.

Have you even looked at the WHM's LB descirption?



That is insane for something that charges as fast as it does. I literally had a match last night where I get hit by whm LB before the crystal in mid even unlocked.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it acted something like Moira's beam from overwatch where it damaged players and healed teammates, but this thing damages players, stuns them, gives regen to the team and increases damage done to enemies. I'm sorry, but that LB is outright broken.

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It's not that insane when you look at what other classes can do. Also a common fallacy in pvp games. Say "Look at what this ability does! How can it not be OP?" but when you look at other classes they're all similar.

And, I know there's not slots for healers or tanks. That's my point. WHM and WAR get chosen because they're competitive with DPS. AST, SCH, DRK, and GNB disappear from high ranks because they're not competitive with DPS.

Thus, if you bring down WAR and WHM to the level of other tanks and healers, you have a mode that effectively becomes DPS-only (if you want to rise above gold). I mean, DPS-only matches already happen anyways.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's not that insane when you look at what other classes can do. Also a common fallacy in pvp games. Say "Look at what this ability does! How can it not be OP?" but when you look at other classes they're all similar.

And, I know there's not slots for healers or tanks. That's my point. WHM and WAR get chosen because they're competitive with DPS. AST, SCH, DRK, and GNB disappear from high ranks because they're not competitive with DPS.

Thus, if you bring down WAR and WHM to the level of other tanks and healers, you have a mode that effectively becomes DPS-only (if you want to rise above gold). I mean, DPS-only matches already happen anyways.

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WAR gets chosen because of Primal Rend. Don't be disingenous. It isn't over represented for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

WAR gets chosen because of Primal Rend. Don't be disingenous.

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That's a big part of why it's competitive with DPS and other tanks are not, yes. Take away primal rend and WHM LB and you don't get a sudden appearance of gunbreakers and astros - you get DPS-only matches.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's not that insane when you look at what other classes can do.

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While I get your general perspective, it's not applicable in this case.

Please provide me an example of another class, specifically in the healer groups (because they seem to try and put a healer and tank in every match they can) or even outside of it that can use an AOE stun nuke dps mitigation regen every 60s (that isn't a WAR with a 15s AOE stun lol) that can be followed up with a single button press to do another 12k plus damage with little effort at range.

I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

While I get your general perspective, it's not applicable in this case.

Please provide me an example of another class, specifically in the healer groups (because they seem to try and put a healer and tank in every match they can) or even outside of it that can use an AOE stun dps mitigation regen every 60s (that isn't a WAR with a 15s AOE stun lol).

I'll wait.

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There isn't one. That's why they can't compete with DPS for a slot.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There isn't one. That's why they can't compete with DPS for a slot.

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So you agree then that there shouldn't be a class(classes) that have a preferential makeup in parties due to an overstacked kit? Or do you think that the LB is the only thing keeping WHM being ran at all in parties? Because even if you take out the LB they have a second purify with a shield, an uncurable CC, and an aoe protect that procs an aoe heal.

They literally get an instant cast Pnuema every 60 or less seconds with CC. There's more to this than DPS. If you gave other classes more ways to control the battlefield like WAR/WHM have you'd have more varied matchups. But WAR can literally yank you off of a crystal and stun everyone at once every 15s while healing itself, and WHM can not only cure spam but constantly be applying pressure while pressuring them is much more difficult compared to any other healer alone.

While I won't advocate for "nerfs" per se I'd rather see other classes be brought up in line with this, I can't see how anyone can look at the WHM kit and LB and not go "Yeah that's a little busted"

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

So you agree then that there shouldn't be a class(classes) that have a preferential makeup in parties due to an overstacked kit? Or do you think that the LB is the only thing keeping WHM from being ran at all in parties? Because even if you take out the LB they have a second purify with a shield, an uncurable CC, and an aoe protect that procs an aoe heal.

They literally get an instant cast Pnuema every 60 or less seconds with CC. There's more to this than DPS. If you gave other classes more ways to control the battlefield like WAR/WHM have you'd have more varied matchups. But WAR can literally yank you off of a crystal and stun everyone at once every 15, and WHM can not only cure spam but constantly be applying pressure while pressuring them is much more difficult compared to any other healer alone.

While I won't advocate for "nerfs" per se I'd rather see other classes be brought up in line with this, I can't see how anyone can look at the WHM kit and LB and go "Yeah that's a little busted"

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I agree that there needs to be some leveling an balancing. But there's also a reason WHM is in the 60s class of limit breaks - you take that away and there isn't that much there. Yes, there's other things, but they won't matter if the enemy team can simply have more DPS to cut through. Which does already happen, 5-DPS teams are a thing and are competitive. Certainly, healing isn't powerful enough to carry through burst anymore and that's by design - everyone has an offensive kit now. And overall this seems to be liked. And the lack of role requirements in low ranks leads to wacky 3-healer 2-DPS parties or 3-tank 2-DPS or some mix and match.

But in upper ranked play, WHM and WAR (and occasionally PLD) are the only ones that can compete with DPS.

Crater WAR, and you don't start seeing more DRKs, GNBs, or even more PLDs. You just see tanks nearly vanish.

Crater WHM, and it's the same - other healers won't move into the space, healers will simply just about vanish.

That's the nature of balancing a matchmaker that has no role requirements. For a role that's already underrepresented, you have to bring up the bad ones. If you bring down the good ones, you simply make the entire role nonviable.

And, by the way, this applies to DPS too. You don't want all DPS on the level of dancer or you wouldn't see DPS at all.

That tanks (that are really DPS with a bit of support), healers (that are really DPS with a bit of CC/support), and DPS are all represented is actually a good start for a new system. The next step, then, is to bring up the ones that have fallen behind so they're no longer excluded - not to increase the number of jobs that are excluded.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Crater WAR, and you don't start seeing more DRKs, GNBs, or even more PLDs. You just see tanks nearly vanish.

Crater WHM, and it's the same - other healers won't move into the space, healers will simply just about vanish.

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You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

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Pretty sure they main White Mage, so...

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

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So here's the thing, though. If you look at only their DPS it's rather low, so it's really that they need the utility. War does good damage in its LB, otherwise it's pretty much yhere solely for the utility. WHM... actually also does good damage in its LB (or when comboing with it really), but outside of that, it's there for the utility and a little healing.

And, OK, they don't need to remain exactly as is. Perhaps primal rend can go to a 25s CD. Perhaps WHM LB can go to a 90s CD and lose on or two of the effects. But a lot of people seem to think they need massive nerfs when even minor ones risk removing them from viability. And WHM already has a "nerf" coming when cure 2 gets a bug fix anyways. They look good, but they're in very precarious positions - take away even a bit too much and they're dead.

And, I agree fully about GNB. So I think we are somewhat on the same page there. And maybe you could have something like the Warrior pull moved to GNB but if that happened, a Primal Rend nerf on top of that would probably be too much.

I think it comes down to, again, the lack of role matchmaking. Even if WAR and WHM being good can give the appearance of it. If there was 1 tank slot and 1 healer slot, you could nerf WAR and WHM a fair bit, and that would create space for other tanks and healers to move in. Without that, high end DPS become the benchmark. If a tank or healer can't do as much DPS as a high end DPS, and can't make up for that with very good utility (WAR and WHM are the two non-DPS that can make up for it), then the end result is no one plays T/H. Or at least, no one playing them gets to a decent rank.

Ironically if SE had better balanced another tank and healer, WHM and WAR probably wouldn't look so outrageous since they wouldn't be the only viable T/H options...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

If there was 1 tank slot and 1 healer slot, you could nerf WAR and WHM a fair bit, and that would create space for other tanks and healers to move in. Without that, high end DPS become the benchmark. If a tank or healer can't do as much DPS as a high end DPS, and can't make up for that with very good utility (WAR and WHM are the two non-DPS that can make up for it), then the end result is no one plays T/H. Or at least, no one playing them gets to a decent rank.

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I mean I've seen the game "try" to get one tank and one healer on most matches so I think they're already doing that in the background.

That being said I don't agree that if you take out things from other classes they become irrelevant. I'd still play GNB regardless of DPS if I had more CC. If one person has 5 million dollars and someone says "hey you should give that person 1 million dollars" it doesn't mean they aren't a millionaire, it just means someone else can sit at the table. Primal rend CD being increased or having splash damage on hit while only stunning a specific target, or adding more cc/utility to other classes should be the way to go.

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways, but while you're focused on WHM/WAR vs other dps, I'm focused on the roles as a whole and the fact that currently while you think WHM/WAR wouldn't be played because of dps, the other tanks and healers are played less because not only do they have no dps, they ahve no utility to a certain degree. Saying "it's there solely for the utility", if it's supposed to sound like a bad thing, doesn't work to me? Because if a GNB could control the battlefield at ALL like WAR there'd be tons of fun there when a WAR vs GNB fight happens with a sort of tug of war for the crystal. Right now that tug of war is the equivalent to 2 muscle builders pulling against a bunch of children.

It should always be If > Then

If a class has less dps, then it should have more utility/heal/etc. WAR and WHM shouldn't have all the dps utility AND healing for it to be a healthy system imo. SGE having good dps won't make it more loved by the people going into battle with it, but it if had a fraction of CC that WHM had it would be less of a "welp we're going against a WHM and WAR this is pretty much already over."

I want to stop myself from seeing WAR/WHM vs me and a DRK/PLD (or if I even get a tank that round) and going "welp this is already over" because they have not only WHM and WAR to control the crystal but the other "meta" jobs like SAM and DRG that have great damage AND sustain and mitigation. The meta right now is not only dps, it's the classes that somehow got the greenlight to be given all the tools needed to deal with any scenario with skillful play.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Ironically if SE had better balanced another tank and healer, WHM and WAR probably wouldn't look so outrageous since they wouldn't be the only viable T/H options...

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Agreed! That's what I'm fighting for. Less reason for players to go "Oh no I have X in my party" and more reason to go "okay I have a GNB they do this differently than WAR and I need to plan my strategy accordingly"

Yeah, at this point we're pretty much in agreement I think.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I mean I've seen the game "try" to get one tank and one healer on most matches so I think they're already doing that in the background.

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But just to this point in particular. What I think the matchmaker is trying to do is avoid stacking classes. So if two summoners are in the queue, one will go to each team. I've seen a lot of non-symmetric teams when it comes to T/H, ie one team gets a tank, the other gets a healer and a tank. Or one team gets a healer, the other is just 5 DPS. Etc. And none of those games were automatic win/loss based on comp.

Coming back to the limitation of the current balance - if only one T/H is really viable, then avoiding dupes works out to reach team getting WHM and WAR. However! On the rare occasion that I see a PLD in the high ranks, it's every time been asymmetric. One team might be WAR+WHM+RDM+DRG+SAM, for example, the other will be WAR+WHM+PLD+RDM+DRG. Or if it's a game with no WAR+WHM combo, then it'd likely just be something like 5 DPS and PLD+4 DPS. And occasionally WHM+PLD+DPS and WHM+WAR+DPS. I'd hypothesize because paladins are so rare, it doesn't run up against criteria along the lines of "don't put two of the same class on the same team" and so can be much freer with their placement.

Please compare AST and WHM LB. Purgation is lethal, has an incredibly long stun duration, and is always up in the first team fight due to completely outrageous charging speed. AST has one of the slowest charging LBs of any job. They get hard animation locked when using it, so by the time the AST can actually deal damage, they get maybe 1 GCD in at 30% damage bonus. The team also isn't aware enough to take advantage of the first 5 seconds of AST LB, so the major lethality of it completely goes to waste. You literally have to stand in the middle of a team fight and stun yourself to use Celestial River. Purgation stuns the enemy before the animation, so there is zero time to react to any kind of tell other than keeping track of the WHMs LB status. The enemy team can easily stall out the first 5 seconds when they see they've been debuffed by AST LB. You are looking at one of the strongest pvp LBs currently vs one of the absolute weakest, both on Healers. How is that remotely okay? It's not balanced in the slightest.

AST is still good in CC though. The copy cast works a little wonky cause running/potting/drawing removes it for some reason :p The LB generation from cards is very powerful and there are many AST mains in top 10 of the rankings

People who complain that Jobs such as WAR and WHM are overrepresented, yet still join the same Bandwagon just to get easy wins, are nothing more but hypocrites. If you REALLY want to play Jobs such as DRK for example, then just do it and become good at it. If People see that you win matches as DRK by making a difference (even trough unorthodox Gameplay), they WILL try to copy you since they see that said Job is now more than viable.

Tl;dr: If you hate the Meta, dont follow it.

Good Day fellow Gamers!

Here are my 2 cents for the PVP Issues as someone who only played AST and got to crystal with it.

First and foremost there are bugs to address:

-> Purify removing a debuff and granting the immunity buff, but you still get cc´ed right after, because of server tick.

-> Whm infite Heal = Bugusing and therefore cheating should have been addressed on tuesday.

-> Guard activation is wonky due to server tick.

Balancing:
-> 6 Classes that are really too strong need to be reworked (Nin, Sam, Drg, War and Redmage are too strong) and Whm is even above of them all because of LB, CC, healing and damage output as well as more Hp then any other healer (1,5k could be reason you die/not die)

-> RPR, DNC and GNB are weak as hell

-> Pala is more like a support tank and could use something more

-> Mnk and Blm need to much time to do something useful

-> The other classes are good and work really well, if you work as a team for the objective of the PvP mode.

-> Silence Debuff is way to strong, when you have 30 seconds Cd on Purify and so many Jobs can silence you. Therefore we either need a cd reduction of Purify or immunity after getting silenced once (so that a 3 second silence is the second time only 1 second at max)

Conclusion:
Due to the meta being figured out you almost always see the same Jobs in higher ranks. Therefore you know what you deal with and know why people are playing these jobs.
I won`t blame anyone playing an OP job when they arent exploiting it, but Whitemage mains need to be deranked when its bug is being fixed.
The achievement of being in crystal should be accomplished by being a good/very good player and not by exploiting a bug.

Thanks for your time and have a great day!

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Originally Posted by Robina_Thicke

[FONT="Arial"]
Balancing:
-> 6 Classes that are really too strong need to be reworked (Nin, Sam, Drg, War and Redmage are too strong)

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Why is Drg too strong?
Because people cuddle on the crystal and eat the lb because they dont see it?

Happens a lot.

It being used right into skirmishes doesn't make DRG too good. Not at all. Smart usage of lb is a good thing. It could have a better indication of which drg uses it (if you and enemy have one, you can not tell who uses it) tho.

I mean i will keep saying it like in the other thread.

CC is "supposed" to be played like this:
Ranged, preferably healer, pushes the crystal.

The rest of the team does not need to be on the crystal 24/7.
You should bully people at spawn because people tend to rush in one by one after respawning instead of waiting. So you can disrupt them way before they even reach the crystal if you spread out and run away the moment you are outnumbered. It works extremely well.
You do not need to immediately push the crystal. The more enemies cluster around it, the better.
It does not matter if the enemies get a few points on the board if it means they put themself into bad positions because they try to push it. Use this opportunity to make them waste their mp, guards, etc.
Wait for your team to respawn if you wipe. Yes, they usually get to the first checkpoint. But believe it or not, you and your whole team have a better chance of winning than alone.
Try to mark people and always attack the one with the lowest hp. Work as a team to pick people off, wildly flailing against enemies is not the way to go. Team up and be bullies. LISTEN to markers.

The only reason you all whine and scream about primal rend is because you all cuddle together and get stunned for 2 seconds, which the warrior itself doesnt profit off of by the way.
The enemy team has to immediately follow up on it, otherwise, believe it or not, you can move away. Don't let the war yeet into you and then chaotic cyclone, stun them yourself and bully them.

If there is nobody that cuddles, primal rend is a single target stun that's basically just a seocnd gap closer that stops you for a bit. You can still run perfectly fine from a single warrior because they also can't do anything until the stun is over. I am completely serious when i say that i ignore warriors that chose to single fight me in the back if the rest of my team is fighting. They can't do much to me that needs immediate attention. My team needs my dps more to support them than the war that bothers me a bit.
Nins and sams... even rdms on the other hand... Actually. All DPS? No, can't ignore those. They will kill me.

Their LB is good but also leaves them completely open. Yes, you can't stun them, but you can still spread to make them run around for fell cleaves.
Yes the enemy team can profit off of it.
But that again, needs the team to be good for it to also be good.
Spreading is literally the bane of warrior because they can neither stun multiple people nor can heal themself a lot. It's almost as if cuddling together is the issue, not warrior having an aoe stun the enemy team HAS to profit off of.
And 2 seconds stun is not enough to bully multiple people at once. If the enemy gets you like that and aoes you once because nospammable aoes AND kills you with it, then you were not full hp and thats your fault.

Retreating is a thing you can try to attempt. Even if people follow you, you can actively remove one enemy from the skirmish yourself with running away and grabbing pots.

Don't call good teamwork OP, the warrior puts themself into danger if their team isnt behind them and pushed with them.

You know what a warrior does, yet choose to be with everybody else. The perfect scenarios where one primal rend makes the play does sometimes exist, but how does primal rend make the difference except being annoying ALL the time? How exactly does your enemy team kill all of you off of a 2 second stun? Do you just stand there and take it all? If you can't move/attack/whatever after the war crashed into you.

Surprise, it's not the war that's doing it, it's somebody else.
It's called teamplay and only works if the enemy focuses down one by one really well.
I call that impressive teamplay and everybody listen to the probably markers somebody puts on you and your team.

Purify should have alonger immunity duration so guard AND purify are a bigger "problem", which would be a good thing.
WHM Lb should charge slower. Don't care how strong it is tbh, but having it every minute if you don't die is just a lot for no reason.

But nerfing the "op" ones does not help the jobs that are currently underperforming and or need to much work.

Why WOULD you play Gnb just because war got nerfed? What does Gnb gain from warrior being a bit weaker? All tanks should be annoying if not focused down, not some wet noodles that jump in and then die because they can't be enough of a surviving nuisance.

Monk works, but why WOULD you do more work just to get going?

Why WOULD you play Blm over SMN if blm needs forever to do anything most of the time?

Underperforming classes will still underperform, they should be brought up, not the rest brought down.

dragon is not op in terms of something that come out as too strong, but because the jobs is too much well rounded... he have something for every situation.
he can debuff enemy around him for take 50% damage less, he can purify root and snare with elusive jump followed by a powerfull ranged attack. he can close gap with a skill, he can get some hp back with one skill...
all in all it's not op strong, but that the combinaison of all of this that make it strong.
on other hand you have job like whm that have too much in them kit and an lb that is godlike.
like the war that have a very strong kit and a lb that is... broken. people can say it's easy to get stun and such with war... but take one second and look at the lb only... 1 button press:
- in a cone infront of the warrior people can't use guard for 15 sec!
- the warrior get an immunity at any effect that can be purify for 15 sec!
- increase in movement speed for 15 sec!
- for 15 sec you can't use guard (well you don't really need it at this point)
- your storm's path become fell cleave (hitting for 12k per attack) for 15 sec naturally means 6x12k damage. 72k damage in total
- and give you thrill of battle increasing your max hp by 20% and healing you of 20% for 30 sec.

naturally you can still use bloodwetting for 10 sec. 100% of the damage is converter in heal...

this is the pinacle of something that is broken. too many effect for 1 button without any condition attached to it.

As soon as they add stun to Intervene for PLD, provided it was not just a mistranslate and a lack of them testing it out and adding it on, is the day I ditch MNK and move over to PLD.

Also what's with the melee DPSes being more tanky than the Tanks? I'm looking at you DRG and SAM. Where's GNB's Chiten? Where's PLD's Horrid Roar? Heck the fact even MNK's RoE doesn't even have any DR% attached to it, is also mind-boggling.

I think the issue is less of a balance regarding numbers and more of a misbalance regarding too many mechanics/features being stacked onto certain classes making other classes just downright undesirable in comparison, which is very unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

You know what a warrior does, yet choose to be with everybody else. The perfect scenarios where one primal rend makes the play does sometimes exist, but how does primal rend make the difference except being annoying ALL the time? How exactly does your enemy team kill all of you off of a 2 second stun? Do you just stand there and take it all? If you can't move/attack/whatever after the war crashed into you.

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I mean....Purify is broken and most of the meta classes have CC. I have sat stunlocked back to back to back for a good 10 seconds and that's enough with how high burst damage is in this game lol.

To shrug off 2-3 seconds of stun EVERY 15s is being openly obtuse. Regardless of team play, without premades it's next to impossible to organize parties because even if you ping the same target a million times at a 10th health they still won't go in for the kill, or worse will go dick off in the spawn while the pusher is getting ganked and then wonder why the crystal moved the opposite direction.

So yes, you do just stand there because nine times out of ten it's not JUST the WAR stun, it's that you are constantly being stunned every 15s and cc is absolutely busted. They have ridiculous sustain and mitigation and can constantly harass anyone on the crystal. A good WAR can absolutely carry/turn the fight if not bursted down, combine that with a WHM you have almost constant cc (without taking into account limit break) the damage and self sustain is high and all the while when you get stunned any other dps can burst in during that time and due to CC being wildly inconsistently spread across the kits can basically end up just standing there waiting to die.

"Being annoying ALL the time" when other tanks can't do that and other classes can't is a key part of the problem. One WAR can consistently harass either a single target or the entire party, they can continue to do it and move people and apply heavy and manage the battlefield.

Also lol at one person not being able to "retreat." Because of hte burst and cc potential if you're seen trying to move away they will just close in and gank you anyways, which also leads right back to WAR having a 15s aoe stun from a distance that they can use to gap close and ruin your retreat.

I agree that the other classes should be brought up but I wish people would stop trying to pretend like it's the teams fault all the time because some classes are stupidly effective and some classes completely lack the tools to react to things that some classes have entire kits to react to everything with.

Why is it always warrior/white mage that gets matched up. It's ridiculous. As if the system tries to pair them up.

the trouble is try to keep some skill from the pve for the pvp... not in the same form, but more like part of the identity. leading to some weird imbalance in the toolkit of some job.
let's take the paladin:
- one Stun with shield bash
- his combo with his last hit giving sword oath that make the next combo attack hit for 6k and heal for 4k
- confiteor that will place a debuff giving back 2k hp per hit on the target, what is clearly too weak for be really impactfull
- intervene that is a good close gap but since it don't stun no way to keep the target to melee after charge.
- Holy Sheltron, it's the skill that bother me the most. i understand the idea but hate how it was make. let's me explain... it have 3 effect, first one give you knight resolve that reduce damage taken by 10% means it have almost no effect in pvp where skill rarely go over 12k (i don't count lb, and even lb...) second effect is a shield that have 12k hp... if you are in middle of the melee it will not save you, it will break most the time in less of 2 gcd... and here come the last effect, when the shield is over he make an aoe that deal 2k+50% of the hp left of the shield (meaning 8k at best if no one have attack you) and inflict heavy 75% to everyone in the 10 yalms...
- finally we have guardian... it allows you to rush to a teammate and absorb all damage that he must receive for 10 second... meaning you will take your normal damage + the other person damage at the same time... everytime i did use this skill outside lb.... i was wipe in less of 5sec.

and let's talk of the lb you become immortal for 10 sec, reduce damage incoming for the teammate by 50% for 10 second and you get access to the combo of the sword. that will deal 4k+6k+8k = 18k damage in 3 gcd... yes it place the same debuff that confiteor that one that make all attack heal teammate by 2k hp...

all in all, the paladin don't have damage and the healing back is questionable at best.. holy sheltron look too weak in comparaison of other survival skill.. and the lb is cool but can't really turn around a game like some lb. in this pvp mode you can see that tank are good when they can be annoyingly hard to kill and deal decent damage... but here with this toolkit the damage of the paladin are not strong enough for be annoying and most of the kit feel weak for his survivability. is not the worst... but i feel it need an edge.
holy sheltron need to be rework, the heavy effect on it and the shield are too weak same for knight resolve, in pve it good enough but in pvp is clearly not enough for really have an impact on the game. intervene either need a snare, root or stun added for make it really a good tool for catch up people fleeing or for simply get a bit more control. and the lb (the sword combo) need to be more stronger... since it take 7.5 second for use it... by either buff the heal receive while using it or increase the damage.

ps: the job guide pvp part of the paladin seems to be wrong, by example intervene in this have 3sec stun

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Originally Posted by Anhra

People who complain that Jobs such as WAR and WHM are overrepresented, yet still join the same Bandwagon just to get easy wins, are nothing more but hypocrites. If you REALLY want to play Jobs such as DRK for example, then just do it and become good at it. If People see that you win matches as DRK by making a difference (even trough unorthodox Gameplay), they WILL try to copy you since they see that said Job is now more than viable.

Tl;dr: If you hate the Meta, dont follow it.

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Being average at a meta job will contribute way more to the team than being extremely good at an undertuned job though.

You could be the best dancer in the world but a Dancer can't one shot 5 people at a time, or do 30k AoE damage + a 3 second stun + a party regen then follow up with an uncleansable transmog

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Why is Drg too strong?
Because people cuddle on the crystal and eat the lb because they dont see it?

Happens a lot.

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I would like if if they made the indicator a little more obvious. It's extremely easy to miss in a hectic battle. So just make the color a bit more obvious or something, don't change anything else, boom probably fixed.